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Landro
01-09-2013, 11:45 AM
We rode on the winds of the rising storm, we ran to the sounds of thunder.
We danced among the lightning bolts, and tore the world asunder.
(ok that takes care of not showing anything spoilerish when people mouse over the thread title)


The Seafolk. What is their real role? It felt as if there was a storm at SG just so they could be useful

Satelle. She would have had many opportunities toe learn about Logain, Siuan or Leanne being Healed so why didn't she ask to be Healed so she could have as channeler?

Roedran. Ok so he wasn't Demandred but other than showing up at the meeting, did he or his troops have any part in the last battle? If so I can't remember.

Luc/Isam. Why was it so important for Luc to go into the blight? Was it so Perrin had a reason to train his skill in the wolfdream?

Gawyn. Ok so he's not the sharpest tool in the shed but challenging a Forsaken to duel? Really?

Terez
01-09-2013, 12:22 PM
We rode on the winds of the rising storm, we ran to the sounds of thunder.
We danced among the lightning bolts, and tore the world asunder.
(ok that takes care of not showing anything spoilerish when people mouse over the thread title)


The Seafolk. What is their real role? It felt as if there was a storm at SG just so they could be useful
Their main role was to keep the armies supplied. But the storm has been a theme since TEOTW; it was hardly made up on the fly.

Satelle. She would have had many opportunities toe learn about Logain, Siuan or Leanne being Healed so why didn't she ask to be Healed so she could have as channeler?
1) We don't know what she was up to, so no reason to assume she knows about the Healing.
2) She's burned out rather than stilled anyway, so she probably couldn't be Healed.

Luc/Isam. Why was it so important for Luc to go into the blight? Was it so Perrin had a reason to train his skill in the wolfdream?
It's clear enough from foreshadowing in early books that Perrin's nemesis for the series was Lanfear, so yes, he had to train his skills.

Gawyn. Ok so he's not the sharpest tool in the shed but challenging a Forsaken to duel? Really?
He had decent reason to believe he could pull it off. From what I saw, he might have if he'd only been wearing one of the rings. Three was overkill. (ha ha) He wasn't the best swordsman of the lot but he had extra tools at his disposal. And his thought process makes it clear enough why he did it. Demandred was slaughtering them. Somebody had to take him out.

Isabel
01-09-2013, 12:24 PM
Sea folk: perhaps there wasnt much about them in the notes, bu tey were helpfull at shayol gul.

Satelle: there is a difference being burned out and stillef. Satelle is burned out and can not be healed. ( as far as we know)

Gawyn: he gave the idea to Lan and helped egwene to be awesome!

Luc: perhaps a misread foreteling by gitara. We dont know.

Davian93
01-09-2013, 12:25 PM
Gawyn being slaughtered like a hog at the knacker was one of the highlights of the book, lets not diminish it any.

On an almost completely unrelated note, you know what would have been cool during aMoL? An update from Min on the "Fireflies & Darkness" viewing she always saw around Rand and the other Two Rivers folks.

Dom
01-09-2013, 12:34 PM
An update from Min on the "Fireflies & Darkness" viewing she always saw around Rand and the other Two Rivers folks.

Oh yeah. A Min POV when Moiraine returned and she had Nynaeve, Egwene, Elayne, Rand, Perrin, Moiraine all in the same room would have been the perfect opportunity, even down to including it seemed to lack... something (Mat and the Seanchan). It would have been very fitting, considering herself would have a role in the Seanchan "resolution".

Not having any Min reaction to Moiraine's return was a bit anticlimactic.

Gawyn being slaughtered like a hog at the knacker was one of the highlights of the book, lets not diminish it any.

Hell no!

Terez
01-09-2013, 12:36 PM
Also, having a spot of Nynaeve's weather sense would have been great. And might have made the storm at Shayol Ghul seem less random. The storm in Tel'aran'rhiod was good, but a bit of Nynaeve would have made it even better.

Davian93
01-09-2013, 12:38 PM
Also, having a spot of Nynaeve's weather sense would have been great. And might have made the storm at Shayol Ghul seem less random. The storm in Tel'aran'rhiod was good, but a bit of Nynaeve would have made it even better.

A lot of those little details were seemingly completely dropped or ignored. But hey, we got to see all sorts of cool new weaves and action

Another good piece would have been another comment from Nynaeve/on Nynaeve having her healing the Madness of the remaining Ashaman.

Dom
01-09-2013, 12:38 PM
It's clear enough from foreshadowing in early books that Perrin's nemesis for the series was Lanfear, so yes, he had to train his skills.

And it's now even truer than before that Tigraine set things in motion to bring the end of the Age by going and giving birth to Rand, and Luc's death happened right at the end and at SG, as Rand's final victory came.

And Luc is dead.

I'm not giving up on the theory these two were Shivan the Hunter and Callian the Chooser unless it's officially confirmed they were not. Elayne's twins come way too late, and the theory they'd be born in the epilogue or during TG was wrong.

Davian93
01-09-2013, 12:44 PM
As I recall, Shivan and Calian were present when Mat blew the Horn in TGH (though its only shown in a flashback in CoS) but I dont recall them as being around when Olver blew it in aMoL for whatever reason (lack of time/details by Brandon or were being reborn). Perhaps those two souls had already entered Elayne's twins given that they were about to be cut out of her belly by the Shadow.

fionwe1987
01-09-2013, 12:44 PM
And it's now even truer than before that Tigraine set things in motion to bring the end of the Age by going and giving birth to Rand, and Luc's death happened right at the end and at SG, as Rand's final victory came.

And Luc is dead.

I'm not giving up on the theory these two were Shivan the Hunter and Callian the Chooser unless it's officially confirmed they were not. Elayne's twins come way too late, and the theory they'd be born in the epilogue or during TG was wrong.
Luc and Tigraine weren't twins, though.

Davian93
01-09-2013, 12:45 PM
Luc and Tigraine weren't twins, though.

There is that, too.

Dom
01-09-2013, 12:46 PM
Also, having a spot of Nynaeve's weather sense would have been great. And might have made the storm at Shayol Ghul seem less random. The storm in Tel'aran'rhiod was good, but a bit of Nynaeve would have made it even better.

Nynaeve as a whole got a bit the short shrift, but RJ himself had started that trend in the late series.

I'm not surprised, though. In all fairness, there were literaly hundreds of these little details to include, and if we all made a list of them without any outside help, none of our lists would include all of them nor be really similar if we ranked them by our perception of their importance to each of us.

Dom
01-09-2013, 01:06 PM
Luc and Tigraine weren't twins, though.

The books never said they were twins - just brother and sister, and Mat's thoughts solidly implied that Shivan was a forerunner, an herald of the end of the Age, of the destruction of what was so the new Age could come. This fits like a glove Tigraine and Luc, who both lived and died around the time of Rand's birth, their disappearance ending the royal line of Mantear and setting the world on the path to the LB and the fourth Age. They came around the time Moiraine took up her mission etc. The herald had already come, and died, when the series started. Luc went on his hunt and to his death. It heralded the end. Shortly after Tigraine made her choice and left too, on the path that brought the world Rand. She also chose to return to the wetlands for war, against all custom for a pregnant maiden. Her sigil alluded to the price: a hand that holds a rose, bleeding from its thorns.

The books only say this of the Hero duo:

Shivan the Hunter behind his black mask. He was said to herald the end of Ages, the destruction of what had been and the birth of what was to be, he and his sister Calian, called the Chooser, who rode red-masked at his side.

Luc was the Hunter, Tigraine was the Chooser. Her choices lead to Rand's birth.

Black and Red, the colours usurped by Moridin as symbol of "the end".

That also explains nicely why Luc too was "important". And right at the end, Perrin destroyed Slayer, and freed both souls, Luc's and Isam's.

That leaves us with explaining that the fact he was part of Slayer left him appear as Hero at the Falme, but we've always known Luc is dead. It's perfectly possible being dead is enough for him to appear with the Heroes, even more since Slayer is a creature living in TAR just like the dead heroes.

It explains also Luc's sigil. RJ gave him the acorn, the seed of a mighty oak. It's both a symbol of death and birth, or transformation.

It's paralleled in a minor, passive variant with Isam himself. His mother was at the center of Malkier's fall, and he dies as Malkier is reborn in a new, stronger incarnation.

fionwe1987
01-09-2013, 01:15 PM
The books never said they were twins - just brother and sister, and Mat's thoughts solidly implied that Shivan was a forerunner, an herald of the end of the Age, of the destruction of what was so the new Age could come. This fits like a glove Tigraine and Luc, who both lived and died around the time of Rand's birth, their disappearance ending the royal line of Mantear and setting the world on the path to the LB and the fourth Age. They came around the time Moiraine took up her mission etc. The herald had already come, and died, when the series started. Luc went on his hunt and to his death. It heralded the end. Shortly after Tigraine made her choice and left too, on the path that brought the world Rand. She also chose to return to the wetlands for war, against all custom for a pregnant maiden. Her sigil alluded to the price: a hand that holds a rose, bleeding from its thorns.

The books only say this of the Hero duo:



Luc was the Hunter, Tigraine was the Chooser. Her choices lead to Rand's birth.

Black and Red, the colours usurped by Moridin as symbol of "the end".

That also explains nicely why Luc too was "important". And right at the end, Perrin destroyed Slayer, and freed both souls, Luc's and Isam's.

That leaves us with explaining that the fact he was part of Slayer left him appear as Hero at the Falme, but we've always known Luc is dead. It's perfectly possible being dead is enough for him to appear with the Heroes, even more since Slayer is a creature living in TAR just like the dead heroes.

It explains also Luc's sigil. RJ gave him the acorn, the seed of a mighty oak. It's both a symbol of death and birth, or transformation.

It's paralleled in a minor, passive variant with Isam himself. His mother was at the center of Malkier's fall, and he dies as Malkier is reborn in a new, stronger incarnation.
But we have Isam's thoughts on how Luc hated Perrin, and feared him. I'm not at all certain Luc is actually dead. Where is that confirmed? I must be missing something.

Dom
01-09-2013, 01:16 PM
As I recall, Shivan and Calian were present when Mat blew the Horn in TGH (though its only shown in a flashback in CoS) but I dont recall them as being around when Olver blew it in aMoL for whatever reason (lack of time/details by Brandon or were being reborn). Perhaps those two souls had already entered Elayne's twins given that they were about to be cut out of her belly by the Shadow.

It doesn't make sense to me that Elayne's son arrives as Herald of destruction. The "Time of Change", when old barriers weaken, the transition between Ages when what is is brought down, reshaping differently for a new Age, when new Talents appear etc. was clearly the phase between Rand's birth and his victory at SG. Moiraine and other AS have repeated it often enough that the transition between Ages was ongoing through the series, and Shivan is supposed to come to herald this - not at the end, but as sign it's starting.

Terez
01-09-2013, 01:20 PM
But we have Isam's thoughts on how Luc hated Perrin, and feared him. I'm not at all certain Luc is actually dead. Where is that confirmed? I must be missing something.
Dark prophecy. We know one of them died; it makes sense it would be the non-Darkfriend of the two. Assuming Luc wasn't a Darkfriend. Isam waited in the high passes. Sounds ominous for Luc.

fionwe1987
01-09-2013, 01:28 PM
Dark prophecy. We know one of them died; it makes sense it would be the non-Darkfriend of the two. Assuming Luc wasn't a Darkfriend. Isam waited in the high passes. Sounds ominous for Luc.

But was it actual death or a metaphysical death? Because if he actually died, I don't quite understand Isam's statement about Luc being scared of Perrin.

Dom
01-09-2013, 02:21 PM
But was it actual death or a metaphysical death? Because if he actually died, I don't quite understand Isam's statement about Luc being scared of Perrin.

It's like Mordeth. He's dead, but found himself a physical vessel in Fain, but that didn't get rid of Fain's soul.

Luc's soul was captured, RJ always implied this was easier for him closer to SG, and it was somehow "bonded" by the DO with Isam's, in Isam's body. It seems to be a variant of transmigration, different in how the DO didn't empty Isam's body to fit Luc's soul, rather he added it to Isam. There rest is mechanics involving TAR we can't fully puzzle out as the DO has always been something of a "rule breaker" and it's meant to remain mysterious... but making Luc a HoH, thus living in TAR with a "body" after death is an interesting avenue to explain the Slayer mechanics, as we saw this with Birgitte, a HoH translated and able to live in the RW, with a bond with a living person. As he got in and out of TAR, Slayer could choose his physical appearance. But one was dead and one was alive, and it's fairly obvious the one alive was Isam.

It's also obvious the two souls aren't "merged". Luc and Isam have distinct personalities and memories and skills - and RJ made sure we'd never get a Luc POV. Isam implied they shared stuff, influenced one another, but not all. An Isam POV also implied Isam didn't quite see things as Luc did. He suggested that by saying that "on their hatred of Perrin, they agreed".

Dom
01-09-2013, 02:25 PM
Dark prophecy. We know one of them died; it makes sense it would be the non-Darkfriend of the two. Assuming Luc wasn't a Darkfriend. Isam waited in the high passes. Sounds ominous for Luc.

The last Isam POV was ambiguously interesting. He spoke scathingly of Darkfriends and added he was sure Luc would act like them, but he didn't reveal if that's because Luc was a Darkfriend too.

I really hope we get a substantial chunk of RJ's notes on Slayer in the Encyclopedia. It's one of the entries I'd most like to read.

fionwe1987
01-09-2013, 03:33 PM
It's like Mordeth. He's dead, but found himself a physical vessel in Fain, but that didn't get rid of Fain's soul.

Luc's soul was captured, RJ always implied this was easier for him closer to SG, and it was somehow "bonded" by the DO with Isam's, in Isam's body. It seems to be a variant of transmigration, different in how the DO didn't empty Isam's body to fit Luc's soul, rather he added it to Isam. There rest is mechanics involving TAR we can't fully puzzle out as the DO has always been something of a "rule breaker" and it's meant to remain mysterious... but making Luc a HoH, thus living in TAR with a "body" after death is an interesting avenue to explain the Slayer mechanics, as we saw this with Birgitte, a HoH translated and able to live in the RW, with a bond with a living person. As he got in and out of TAR, Slayer could choose his physical appearance. But one was dead and one was alive, and it's fairly obvious the one alive was Isam.

It's also obvious the two souls aren't "merged". Luc and Isam have distinct personalities and memories and skills - and RJ made sure we'd never get a Luc POV. Isam implied they shared stuff, influenced one another, but not all. An Isam POV also implied Isam didn't quite see things as Luc did. He suggested that by saying that "on their hatred of Perrin, they agreed".
This was my understanding of this too. But if Luc's soul was bonded to Isam's, and essentially able to think and react separately from Isam, I'm not certain how we can expect Shivan to show up in tGH, if Luc is indeed him. It would be like Birgette showing up when the Horn is blown even when she had a physical body. I don't think that works.

ShadowbaneX
01-09-2013, 03:53 PM
Gitara's foretelling was perfectly true, he found his destiny in the Blight or whatever and he did. It might have been better to see if Perrin had been able to get through to Luc, thus allowing to bring Slayer down, but Luc did need to go to the Blight.

Dom
01-09-2013, 03:55 PM
This was my understanding of this too. But if Luc's soul was bonded to Isam's, and essentially able to think and react separately from Isam, I'm not certain how we can expect Shivan to show up in tGH, if Luc is indeed him. It would be like Birgette showing up when the Horn is blown even when she had a physical body. I don't think that works.

She died right before we'd have known if the Horn would have called her or not. Technically, Birgitte was "dead".

It may have worked in Falme because Slayer was in TAR at the time.

We don't have another brother-sister duo (even less one of some fame... Luc's and Tigraine's vanishing is at least a worthy "story" well known by all Andorans and beyond Andor) who could have been the heralds of the end of the Age, and RJ in a Q&A said they always have an incarnation to herald the end of an Age. Elayne's twins arrive too late to be "heralds", and all the other sister-brother duos are alive during the series and can't have shown up in Falme. Luc and Tigraine are the only two we know to have been alive during the "beginning of the end" phase marked by Rand's birth and the gradual undoing of the old order of the New Era, when Talents like Elyas's manifested, when Min was born, when the "old barriers weakened" - the Time of Change as AS call.

Shivan is an herald, he can hardly come after the LB, when most of the old order have been unravelling for years, two decades in fact with a solid acceleration in the last two years, and the "new order" is already in motion.

The rest is mechanics we don't know enough about. We can't prove either way that Luc would or would not have shown up at Falme because of Slayer.

But it's probably significant that both Shivan and Calian appeared masked, that we didn't get a description of their faces.. if all RJ could have Mat observe is that their last incarnation looked much like Rand. It's the masks that first made me think of Tigraine and Luc (both are under "a mask" o hidden identity... Shaiel and Slayer) all the way back when I read ACOS.

It may or may not work because of the Slayer mechanics, but we don't know, and thus it remains a valid theory.

Terez
01-09-2013, 04:07 PM
Gitara's foretelling was perfectly true, he found his destiny in the Blight or whatever and he did.
I believe he was referring to the rumors that Gitara said the Last Battle depended on him going. Since we don't actually know what she said, we're just working on the assumption that was true.

fionwe1987
01-09-2013, 04:07 PM
She died right before we'd have known if the Horn would have called her or not. Technically, Birgitte was "dead".

It may have worked in Falme because Slayer was in TAR at the time.

We don't have another brother-sister duo (even less one of some fame... Luc's and Tigraine's vanishing is at least a worthy "story" well known by all Andorans and beyond Andor) who could have been the heralds of the end of the Age, and RJ in a Q&A said they always have an incarnation to herald the end of an Age. Elayne's twins arrive too late to be "heralds", and all the other sister-brother duos are alive during the series and can't have shown up in Falme. Luc and Tigraine are the only two we know to have been alive during the "beginning of the end" phase marked by Rand's birth and the gradual undoing of the old order of the New Era, when Talents like Elyas's manifested, when Min was born, when the "old barriers weakened" - the Time of Change as AS call.

Shivan is an herald, he can hardly come after the LB, when most of the old order have been unravelling for years, two decades in fact with a solid acceleration in the last two years, and the "new order" is already in motion.

The rest is mechanics we don't know enough about. We can't prove either way that Luc would or would not have shown up at Falme because of Slayer.

But it's probably significant that both Shivan and Calian appeared masked, that we didn't get a description of their faces.. if all RJ could have Mat observe is that their last incarnation looked much like Rand. It's the masks that first made me think of Tigraine and Luc (both are under "a mask" o hidden identity... Shaiel and Slayer) all the way back when I read ACOS.

It may or may not work because of the Slayer mechanics, but we don't know, and thus it remains a valid theory.
I get that its valid. And its certainly an attractive idea.

But as for Elayne's twins, they aren't ruled out. One meaning of "herald" is a forerunner or harbinger. In that sense, they certainly don't work. But another meaning is "a person who proclaims or announces". In that sense, Elayne's son certainly can be a herald. The time immediately after the LB can be a kind of transition, where the old still remains and the new is still finding its place. It could be Shivan's role, as Elayne's son, to act in a way that marks the end of transition. Perhaps he will rule, or perhaps as a channeler, he will be the first male channeler to be elected leader of a combined group of male and female channelers. Something like that would certainly work as an announcement that all vestiges of the old Age are gone, and this is indeed a new era.

Davian93
01-09-2013, 04:25 PM
I get that its valid. And its certainly an attractive idea.

But as for Elayne's twins, they aren't ruled out. One meaning of "herald" is a forerunner or harbinger. In that sense, they certainly don't work. But another meaning is "a person who proclaims or announces". In that sense, Elayne's son certainly can be a herald. The time immediately after the LB can be a kind of transition, where the old still remains and the new is still finding its place. It could be Shivan's role, as Elayne's son, to act in a way that marks the end of transition. Perhaps he will rule, or perhaps as a channeler, he will be the first male channeler to be elected leader of a combined group of male and female channelers. Something like that would certainly work as an announcement that all vestiges of the old Age are gone, and this is indeed a new era.

Along those lines, one could argue that the Breaking was a 350 year transition between the 2nd & 3rd Ages that didnt fall into either Age. Under that theory, the 2nd Age ended the moment LTT sealed the Bore and the 3rd Age started the moment the final Male Aes Sedai died.

There could be a similar transition as Elayne & Co rebuild their utterly destroyed nations in the aftermath of the Last Battle.

Dom
01-09-2013, 04:29 PM
I get that its valid. And its certainly an attractive idea.

But as for Elayne's twins, they aren't ruled out. One meaning of "herald" is a forerunner or harbinger. In that sense, they certainly don't work. But another meaning is "a person who proclaims or announces".

That sense of herald refers only to the literal job. If you use it figuratively, it takes the sense of harbinger, forunner or prophet.

You can't seriously think anyone in the series now need someone coming twenty years after Tarmon Gai'don to proclaim the Third Age is over!!!

fionwe1987
01-09-2013, 05:15 PM
That sense of herald refers only to the literal job. If you use it figuratively, it takes the sense of harbinger, forunner or prophet.
But why can't Shivan be the literal herald of the Pattern? It's messenger.
You can't seriously think anyone in the series now need someone coming twenty years after Tarmon Gai'don to proclaim the Third Age is over!!!
Literally no. But a new age is more than a date, more then a new calendar. Its a fundamental shift in attitudes and customs. I don't think that was achieved the moment the Last Battle was over!

Tedman
01-09-2013, 05:15 PM
Luc could be afraid\hate perrin because he knows his end is mixed up with him.

Nomeshta was afraid of the eye because he felt his unmaking with it, if someone like that can be afraid so could a HoH who has been corrupted.

Dom
01-09-2013, 06:03 PM
But why can't Shivan be the literal herald of the Pattern? It's messenger

Because if I interpreted "herald" as messenger, I would not have come up with this theory. OBVIOUSLY, if I have this theory, it's because I'm convinced in the ACOS quote it's to be taken in the sense of harbinger.

You disagree. Fine. You said so now. Stop turning everything into never ending debates with circular arguments. I know it may be wrong. I've explained why I don't like the twins for it. There's no more to add.

fionwe1987
01-09-2013, 06:12 PM
Because if I interpreted "herald" as messenger, I would not have come up with this theory. OBVIOUSLY, if I have this theory, it's because I'm convinced in the ACOS quote it's to be taken in the sense of harbinger.

You disagree. Fine. You said so now. Stop turning everything into never ending debates with circular arguments. I know it may be wrong. I've explained why I don't like the twins for it. There's no more to add.

Sheesh. Okay Elaida. Take a chill pill.

Dom
01-09-2013, 06:22 PM
Sheesh. Okay Elaida. Take a chill pill.

Respect what I asked you weeks ago, and there won't be any problem.

Davian93
01-09-2013, 06:30 PM
Okay guys, lets all calm down.

fionwe1987
01-09-2013, 06:54 PM
Respect what I asked you weeks ago, and there won't be any problem.
This was a perfectly respectful and reasonable thread till you randomly decided to change that.

To respond to your point, no it is not OBVIOUS that you rejected a particular interpretation of "herald" to come to your theory. It is even less obvious that you considered the possibility that Shivan was an actual herald of the Pattern (like Rand is considered the Light's Champion) and rejected it for some as yet undiscussed reason.

If you feel you don't want to explain those things, you're perfectly free not to. If you don't want to add anything more, and feel the debate is done, there's a simple mechanism available to resolve that: its called not replying to a post that you think has concluded all that can be said from both sides.

Wolfmage
01-09-2013, 07:54 PM
Not having any Min reaction to Moiraine's return was a bit anticlimactic.

I think there was some reference to her being shocked. But I totally agree it was a huge lost opportunity. At the least she should have murmured something about how the light siders do have a chance.

Notwithstanding Min's optimism and love of Rand, she has "known" they were essentially doomed without Moiraine since forever, so Moiraine's re-appearance should have been a momentous event for her character. The reaction should have rivalled that of Rand's reaction, even if it was not voiced to the whole room. Instead, we got her mute reaction grouped in with generic shock of another character, which was not very meaningful considering how important it was.

Dom
01-09-2013, 08:22 PM
I think there was some reference to her being shocked. But I totally agree it was a huge lost opportunity. At the least she should have murmured something about how the light siders do have a chance.

Notwithstanding Min's optimism and love of Rand, she has "known" they were essentially doomed without Moiraine since forever, so Moiraine's re-appearance should have been a momentous event for her character. The reaction should have rivalled that of Rand's reaction, even if it was not voiced to the whole room. Instead, we got her mute reaction grouped in with generic shock of another character, which was not very meaningful considering how important it was.

All that, and as I told Terez as I read those chapters, I would have taken a "private scene" with some of those players right after the meeting. That sort of came, the scene between Rand and Moiraine, but too late for my taste, making her return feel a bit rushed and incomplete. We didn't even get a Siuan/Moiraine reunion.

One of the things I enjoyed less in the book is how Brandon balanced the character vs. action/battle moments. I could have taken a whole lot more POV where the characters shared with us how they felt, and much less battle details. For many characters, it was the events they'd been working for years, decades in some cases, to make happen. We've followed them through much of the build up, but we didn't quite get their final thoughts during the LB, for most of them. I would have wanted to know how Cadsuane, Moiraine, Siuan and co. felt about it all. I would have wanted scenes scattered through it all with "moments" during those battles, rather than being told over and over .. and then, the Trollocs charged, and the archers did that, and less Mat playing cards. I would have wanted to be with Siuan watching Bryne overseeing the battle and telling us how it was like to live through that,, and Romanda and etc. We didn't need to be constantly in the battle. They rested, they ate. Brandon didn't take advantage of those "respites" to give us how the characters felt about it all. There was some of that, but not quite enough for my taste. But it's obvious Brandon was a bit overwhelmed by describing the battles themselves. RJ swam like a fish in those, seemed a lot more comfortable with showing small moments in the whole without losing track. A lot more comfortable with ellipses too. He went "closer", made us feel the battles better, without worrying about giving us the "greater picture" we only see in movie with aerial cameras. he kept us more with the players, gave us all they saw/experienced of the battle. I liked that style more. Bu then, RJ was a veteran and good at conveying the chaos of it all.

Karistina
01-09-2013, 08:45 PM
But a new age is more than a date, more then a new calendar.
On this, I disagree. Loial - historian and soon to be premier author - makes a comment about how it's going to mess with people having the Fourth Age start at noon in the middle of a day. It IS a specific date on the calendar. And time on the clock.

fionwe1987
01-09-2013, 09:47 PM
On this, I disagree. Loial - historian and soon to be premier author - makes a comment about how it's going to mess with people having the Fourth Age start at noon in the middle of a day. It IS a specific date on the calendar. And time on the clock.
How does this contradict what I'm saying? Yes, you have a new calendar. But is that enough to make it a new Age? There have been calendar changes within the Third Age. Twice. That didn't make a new Age. You need more than that. You need a change in all sorts of things to go with it. The seeds for all that have been planted. But not all have sprouted, yet.

Karistina
01-09-2013, 10:33 PM
How does this contradict what I'm saying? Yes, you have a new calendar. But is that enough to make it a new Age? There have been calendar changes within the Third Age. Twice. That didn't make a new Age. You need more than that. You need a change in all sorts of things to go with it. The seeds for all that have been planted. But not all have sprouted, yet.
The Dark One has been sealed away again. That's not enough for the New Age to start for you? That and one of the characters thinking specifically that the New Age HAS started by the end of the book?

fionwe1987
01-09-2013, 11:47 PM
The Dark One has been sealed away again. That's not enough for the New Age to start for you? That and one of the characters thinking specifically that the New Age HAS started by the end of the book?
And this has automatically made the Asha'man and Aes Sedai a united channeling body? Society will have woken up on this day and all prejudice against men would have been totally wiped out? Please.

KyleLitke
01-09-2013, 11:49 PM
This was probably addressed in the book and I just blew past it because I was watching my godson while reading and kept getting distracted, but did I miss something with Sorilea? I remember Sorilea and Cadsuane noticing Graendal and Cadsuane made some comment about how "the two of us will find her" (forget the exact line)...then later it was Avi, Cadsuane, and Amys going after her instead and I don't recall Sorilea turning up again. I'm wondering if I misread that whole earlier scene (I remember thinking it was weird that Sorilea, who can barely channel, would be going after Graendal, even not realizing it was her) or if I missed a page later on due to distraction with something happening with Sorilea there.

Ieyasu
01-09-2013, 11:54 PM
I believe he was referring to the rumors that Gitara said the Last Battle depended on him going. Since we don't actually know what she said, we're just working on the assumption that was true.

The Last Battle did depend on him going... Tigraine would not have been heartbroken and left for the waste if Luc did not disappear... thus Rand would not have been born...

EDIT:actually, now that I think about it, I am not certain she left before Luc did or not... need to reread the Wise Ones telling Rand about Shiel in The Shadow Rising...something about leaving behind a husband she didnt love and a child she did...

EDIT2: shit im mixing Galad up with Luc lol

Tollingtoy
01-10-2013, 04:32 PM
How exactly did Alivia help Rand die?

Ieyasu
01-10-2013, 05:16 PM
How exactly did Alivia help Rand die?

She helped fake his death by having his horse, pipe, coins etc ready for him to leave as someone else... thus helping the "Dragon" to die....

Dom
01-10-2013, 05:51 PM
The Last Battle did depend on him going... Tigraine would not have been heartbroken and left for the waste if Luc did not disappear... thus Rand would not have been born...

EDIT:actually, now that I think about it, I am not certain she left before Luc did or not... need to reread the Wise Ones telling Rand about Shiel in The Shadow Rising...something about leaving behind a husband she didnt love and a child she did...

EDIT2: shit im mixing Galad up with Luc lol

And it's Tigraine's mom who was heartbroken. :)

Luc vanished, then Tigraine.

I guess it's possible Gitara anticipated the problems Luc might cause if Tigraine vanished and he could hunt her down. ie: his importance has more to do with sending him away so he didn't stop/pursue his sister when she vanished.

Ieyasu
01-10-2013, 06:17 PM
And it's Tigraine's mom who was heartbroken. :)

Luc vanished, then Tigraine.

I guess it's possible Gitara anticipated the problems Luc might cause if Tigraine vanished and he could hunt her down. ie: his importance has more to do with sending him away so he didn't stop/pursue his sister when she vanished.

No, it was indeed Shiel aka Tigraine who was heart broken over leaving a "son she loved and a husband she did not"...that heartbreak just didn't contribute to her leaving, but instead was a result of it. I was indeed mistaking Galad for a young Luc. Though I have no doubt her mother was likewise heartbroken at her disappearance...the heart break wasn't limited to just one person or one reason.

KyleLitke
01-10-2013, 06:31 PM
So, Moghedien was the one posing as Sammael, right?

Tollingtoy
01-10-2013, 08:08 PM
That was the impression I got when she talked about knowing how to impersonate all of the Forsaken. But, I believe that was when she was under Moridin's control, so I guess that makes him responsible?

KyleLitke
01-10-2013, 09:10 PM
Wasn't Moridin surprised or angry, though? I can't quite remember the context of that scene now, just that we found out someone had impersonated Sammael. He might not have been in which case I agree.

Dajoran
01-11-2013, 06:22 AM
I often got the feeling (post-ToM) that Slayer was something that Perrin and Galad were supposed to do together.

Perrin's story with the WC, cumulating with Galad working with him. I thought it was going to end with Slayer faltering, in the same way that Janduin falters at the Blight, after being confronted with someone who resembles Shaiel/Tirgrane.

Luc, apart from a few mentions here or there, kind of... fizzled out.

Enigma
01-11-2013, 06:49 AM
You might argue that it was Slayer that was the spur for Perrin to master TER. If Perrin was not so well versed in the world of dreams he may not have stopped that balefire during the battle at Tar Valon between Egwene & forsaken/BA. Likewise he may not have been there to encourage Rand on Dragonmoutn (if that actually had any effect). I am sure if you look at the last few books there were plenty of places where if Perrin had not become so good in the dream things would have been bad.

Dom
01-11-2013, 07:01 AM
No, it was indeed Shiel aka Tigraine who was heart broken over leaving a "son she loved and a husband she did not"...that heartbreak just didn't contribute to her leaving, but instead was a result of it. I was indeed mistaking Galad for a young Luc. Though I have no doubt her mother was likewise heartbroken at her disappearance...the heart break wasn't limited to just one person or one reason.

We are told she soon died heartbroken by the loss of her heir, just a year after losing her son too.

The Wise Ones mention Shaiel's guilt and pain over abandoning her son behind but that it didn't alter her determination, but it's her mother who got the archetypal "death from a broken heart", so I thought that was the "heartbreak" you were remembering.

Tollingtoy
01-11-2013, 03:56 PM
Do we know what the "Gun On the Mantle" was?

Dom
01-11-2013, 04:02 PM
Do we know what the "Gun On the Mantle" was?

Demandred's san'angreal seems to be the only thing fitting Brandon's parameters.

Tollingtoy
01-11-2013, 04:10 PM
Demandred's san'angreal seems to be the only thing fitting Brandon's parameters.


That was mentioned in TDR?

fionwe1987
01-11-2013, 04:12 PM
Do we know what the "Gun On the Mantle" was?
Most likely to be Vora's wand. It showed up in tDR first, was very subtly tied to balefire, and we even got an early hint of its ultimate purpose from the earliest description of how it looked when used:

A bar of bone-white fire.

And in the end, it literally was a gun on the shelf. And when first Nynaeve and Elayne tried to find something that would help Rand, they first found Egwene, and then found themselves in the Tower storerooms. Suggestive, wouldn't you say?

Dom
01-11-2013, 04:22 PM
That was mentioned in TDR?

No, TSR.

I mixed up Brandon speaking of TSR instead of TDR.

That could be "I'll be in your dreams my wildling, always", Lanfear to Perrin, then. TDR 36.

Tollingtoy
01-11-2013, 04:24 PM
Most likely to be Vora's wand. It showed up in tDR first, was very subtly tied to balefire, and we even got an early hint of its ultimate purpose from the earliest description of how it looked when used:

But, didn't Egwene also use this in TGS?

No, TSR.

I mixed up Brandon speaking of TSR instead of TDR.

That could be "I'll be in your dreams my wildling, always", Lanfear to Perrin, then. TSR 36.

I'm confused, wasn't Chekov's Gun found in TDR?

Terez
01-11-2013, 04:26 PM
Yes, and that's what Dom meant. TDR 36.

Tollingtoy
01-11-2013, 04:59 PM
Yes, and that's what Dom meant. TDR 36.


That's kind of a crappy gun if you ask me......but it might explain why no one figured it out

fionwe1987
01-11-2013, 05:02 PM
But, didn't Egwene also use this in TGS?

Yes, but not for this purpose. Its pretty weak, though. The Lanfear-Perrin thing seems stronger, but I'm not sure how that really qualifies as a proper Chekov's Gun. It wasn't in plain sight since then.

Terez
01-11-2013, 05:26 PM
It qualifies because it wasn't used until AMOL. The gun is always in plain sight; that's the point.

Tollingtoy
01-11-2013, 05:29 PM
Am I also to assume that the "GRRM" Moment was Egwene dying?

Terez
01-11-2013, 05:30 PM
I wouldn't make any assumptions. Someone should ask him.

Dom
01-11-2013, 05:38 PM
Am I also to assume that the "GRRM" Moment was Egwene dying?

I rather liked the beheading of Birgitte - or the whole scene about having babies ripped out of Elayne nailed down for that. More unexpected/sudden/graphic/gruesome. RJ had a lot of people fooled that Min's viewing meant Birgitte couldn't die and would be older than Gaidal in this life. Brandon added a layer of his own by chatting about how he knew who Gaidal's been reborn as.

Egwene's blaze of glory sacrifice, in the middle of a battlefield, wasn't that unexpected in the finale of a series. Arthuriana, Eldrene etc. It was also more impressive than anything.

But it will be a good question for Brandon, only he could really tell us.

ka243
01-18-2013, 03:27 PM
Re: Gun on the mantle - I thought it was olver being able to blow the horn since mat "died" and was no longer bonded to it....

Its something that was set up a long time ago that got fired at the very end and turned out to be critical. Were there any theories about mat no longer being tied to the horn? Don't remember ever reading anything about that.

I thought it was very cool though.

Terez
01-18-2013, 03:30 PM
Re: Gun on the mantle - I thought it was olver being able to blow the horn since mat "died" and was no longer bonded to it....
That was in TFOH, not TDR.

Were there any theories about mat no longer being tied to the horn?
Yes. It just wasn't discussed often because there was nothing to discuss, really. Either his link was broken, or it wasn't, and if it was broken, chances were he would blow it again anyway. There wasn't any real evidence one way or the other; both scenarios were believable.

Alec
01-18-2013, 06:36 PM
Gawyn being slaughtered like a hog at the knacker was one of the highlights of the book, lets not diminish it any.

On an almost completely unrelated note, you know what would have been cool during aMoL? An update from Min on the "Fireflies & Darkness" viewing she always saw around Rand and the other Two Rivers folks.

I always thought (and hoped) the firefly viewing and how there would be more of them when the characters were together meant that at some point during or immediately preceding the last battle those characters would have to be together.

Terez
01-18-2013, 06:37 PM
In a sense, they were at Shayol Ghul. Rand was inside, and they were outside, but they were all together.

Rand al'Fain
01-18-2013, 07:39 PM
I wouldn't make any assumptions. Someone should ask him.

Think he'll reveal some of these things during the tour? Or sooner?

eht slat meit
01-18-2013, 08:03 PM
I rather liked the beheading of Birgitte - or the whole scene about having babies ripped out of Elayne nailed down for that. More unexpected/sudden/graphic/gruesome.

Same here - the quote specifically was:

"Dang. I just pulled off something in A Memory of Light that is GRRM-esque. I'm not certain if I should apologize, feel awesome, or go take a shower."

That seems more in keeping with what happened to Birgitte than Egwene, as Birgitte is a fairly popular character without all the hate-baggage who got messily bumped off rather than going out with a heroic flash-bang.

Davian93
01-19-2013, 07:51 AM
Same here - the quote specifically was:

"Dang. I just pulled off something in A Memory of Light that is GRRM-esque. I'm not certain if I should apologize, feel awesome, or go take a shower."

That seems more in keeping with what happened to Birgitte than Egwene, as Birgitte is a fairly popular character without all the hate-baggage who got messily bumped off rather than going out with a heroic flash-bang.

That would have been an ideal scene to have a character crossover from aSoIaF...

Mellar suddenly gets stabbed from behind. Elayne asks who her savior is only to be told its Ser Gregor Clegane. It all goes rapidly downhill for her at that point...though she's puzzled as to why he keeps calling her "Elia" instead of Elayne.

Seriously though, I knew going into the scene that there was zero chance that Brandon/RJ were gonna let Elayne get raped,killed and have her babies cut out...just totally out of character for them. And probably agood thing as its not aSoIaF.

Fourth Age Historian
01-19-2013, 01:31 PM
I thought the "gun on the mantle" was the Sharans themselves... then again, I have no idea when Shara was first mentioned, so I could be way off on the timing.

Fourth Age Historian
01-19-2013, 01:58 PM
This is something I meant to keep much better track of, but without doing a reread I'm at a bit of a loss. I could use an assist with the exact reference, but I remember a passage somewhere about the Dragon Reborn doing "Nine impossible things." Did anyone get a good count? What nine things? I always meant to go find everything that someone referred to as impossible and match it against the things Rand did, also allowing for things not explicitly mentioned as impossibilities which would still be impossible by implication or common sense.

Off the top of my head:


The Cleansing
Lighting his pipe without channeling
Swapping bodies with Moridin



Other possibilities:


Destroying the Choeden Kal (anyone ever say this was impossible)?
Killing ALL the Trollocs that one time
Reversing Mat, Avi, Asmo's deaths
Grabbing the DO by the throat
Resealing the Bore, but better
Regrowing that stand of trees (admittedly not entirely his doing)


Anyway, thoughts on this? Are the nine things brutally obvious, making me foolish for even asking?

Davian93
01-19-2013, 02:13 PM
Here's the quote you're looking for:


TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: 17 - Secrets
Tiana stiffened and opened her mouth angrily, but once Janya had the bit between her teeth, getting a word in edgewise was no easy matter. "Nicola, on the other hand, causes all sorts of problems, Mother," the Brown rushed on. "Ever since we found out she has the Foretelling, she's been Foretelling two or three times a day, to hear her tell it. Or rather, to hear Areina tell it. Nicola is smart enough to know everyone is aware she can't remember what she says when she Foretells, but Areina always seems to be there to hear and remember, and help her interpret. Some are the sort of thing anyone in the camp with half a brain and a credulous nature might think of - battles with the Seanchan or the Asha'man, an Amyrlin imprisoned, the Dragon Reborn doing nine impossible things, visions that might be Tarmon Gai'don or a bilious stomach - and the rest all just happen to indicate that Nicola ought to be allowed to go faster with her lessons. She's always too greedy for that. I think even most of the other novices have stopped believing her."


Whether its a legitimate foretelling or not is up for debate.

Fourth Age Historian
01-19-2013, 04:40 PM
Ah, thanks! I had forgotten that came from Nicola, as well. That's important context. I don't know why but that one was something that always stuck in my mind and fascinated me.

Terez
01-19-2013, 06:09 PM
This is something I meant to keep much better track of, but without doing a reread I'm at a bit of a loss. I could use an assist with the exact reference, but I remember a passage somewhere about the Dragon Reborn doing "Nine impossible things." Did anyone get a good count? What nine things? I always meant to go find everything that someone referred to as impossible and match it against the things Rand did, also allowing for things not explicitly mentioned as impossibilities which would still be impossible by implication or common sense.

Off the top of my head:


The Cleansing
Lighting his pipe without channeling
Swapping bodies with Moridin



Other possibilities:


Destroying the Choeden Kal (anyone ever say this was impossible)?
Killing ALL the Trollocs that one time
Reversing Mat, Avi, Asmo's deaths
Grabbing the DO by the throat
Resealing the Bore, but better
Regrowing that stand of trees (admittedly not entirely his doing)


Anyway, thoughts on this? Are the nine things brutally obvious, making me foolish for even asking?
He got a gelding from Kiruna, named Tai'daishar. Later it was a stallion.

Fourth Age Historian
01-19-2013, 06:21 PM
He got a gelding from Kiruna, named Tai'daishar. Later it was a stallion.

I can see I should have been a regular here all along...

Terez
01-19-2013, 08:29 PM
:)

Daekyras
01-19-2013, 10:08 PM
Demandred's san'angreal seems to be the only thing fitting Brandon's parameters.

do you mean the mention of there being a sa'angreal more powerful than callandor?

i liked this theory when it was brought up pre aMoL But was it not debunked? i have a vague memory of people saying that it couldn't be this...

Terez
01-19-2013, 10:23 PM
Yes, and if you read the next few posts, you'll see that we discussed that. ;)

Daekyras
01-19-2013, 10:51 PM
Yes, and if you read the next few posts, you'll see that we discussed that. ;)

soooo, its not the sa'angreal?

Also, be nice T, i'm a year older today!!!

Terez
01-19-2013, 11:17 PM
Nope, not the sa'angreal. ;)

Alec
01-20-2013, 12:29 AM
In a sense, they were at Shayol Ghul. Rand was inside, and they were outside, but they were all together.

Was Lan there? I don't remember any mention of him being there until after everything was over.

Daekyras
01-20-2013, 03:33 AM
yup, thats what terez was referring to. Rand was in the tent and everyone else was outside.

Terez
01-20-2013, 11:14 AM
No, I meant when Rand was inside Shayol Ghul.

fionwe1987
01-20-2013, 12:36 PM
No, I meant when Rand was inside Shayol Ghul.
Well, Egwene never was there. The only one of the main cast to never go to SG.