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Davian93
01-09-2013, 01:03 PM
Okay, now that everything is taken care of and I have to write a random sentence for a little while to deal with mouse-over issues, what does everything think of the Post-Last Battle world (or, better yet, what's actually left of it.

SPOILERS AHEAD...OBVIOUSLY




Starting off, Shienar, Kandor and the Borderlands in general have basically been wiped off the map. So has Camelyn and the heart of Andor along with a good chunk of Cairhien. Most of the southern powers were pretty much left alone (as far as we know). There were no direct battles in any of the Seanchan territories or Illian/Tear/Mayene or Ghealdan/Murandy for that matter. That has to have some major effects in the postwar balance of power (even with the Dragon's Peace in effect). It does leave a lot of questions though:

1. How does Lan/Nynaeve rebuild Malkier now that the Blight is gone?
2. How do Perrin/Faile take over Saldaea now that she's Queen? Will Tam remain as Steward of the Two Rivers since Perrin will be busy in Saldaea?
3. What are Elayne's next steps? Does she move her capitol to Cairhien? Does she rebuild Camelyn? Does she run off with Rand?
4. What of the Ogier? Do they go and open the Book of Translation now that they've done their part (ala the Elves going across the Sea), do they wait a few years, decades, an entire Age? Clearly there is enough time for Loial to write his book afterall.
5. Does Mattin Stepaneos take his crown back now that Rand is "dead" and Gregorian isn't King regardless of what he thinks.
6. How does Cadsuane handle the Tower, Does she follow through with Egwene's plans to integrate the Wise Ones & Windfinders? etc etc
7. Do the remaining powers invade Shara to finish off what might be left of the Shadow's forces?
8. Where to the Aiel end up living? They're clearly not going back to the Waste now that they're a UN Peacekeeping force for Randland...at least not all of them are going back? Are the "Aiel" as we know them dead and the Shaido the only "Aiel" remaining, ala the Remnant of a Remnant?

There are a hundred more but I figure that's enough to get it started.

Ozymandias
01-09-2013, 02:54 PM
Okay, now that everything is taken care of and I have to write a random sentence for a little while to deal with mouse-over issues, what does everything think of the Post-Last Battle world (or, better yet, what's actually left of it.

SPOILERS AHEAD...OBVIOUSLY

3. What are Elayne's next steps? Does she move her capitol to Cairhien? Does she rebuild Camelyn? Does she run off with Rand?


Some variant of this has always bothered me. We see in Avi's future-vision that Elayne's granddaughter is ruling Andor. But it is only a couple hundred years or so after the events of the series. Elayne should live to be 200, easily, so I never understood why she wasn't around. Clearly wasn't assassination, I guess voluntary retirement? It was a poorly thought out part of that plotline.

Karistina
01-09-2013, 03:06 PM
Some variant of this has always bothered me. We see in Avi's future-vision that Elayne's granddaughter is ruling Andor. But it is only a couple hundred years or so after the events of the series. Elayne should live to be 200, easily, so I never understood why she wasn't around. Clearly wasn't assassination, I guess voluntary retirement? It was a poorly thought out part of that plotline.

Any number of things could have happened to Elayne in that future. Even Aes Sedai can have accidents.

jana
01-09-2013, 03:12 PM
Some variant of this has always bothered me. We see in Avi's future-vision that Elayne's granddaughter is ruling Andor. But it is only a couple hundred years or so after the events of the series. Elayne should live to be 200, easily, so I never understood why she wasn't around. Clearly wasn't assassination, I guess voluntary retirement? It was a poorly thought out part of that plotline.

Elayne may decide to retire at some point to be with Randidin more. (Though I guess he might have a normal lifespan now).

sleepinghour
01-09-2013, 03:17 PM
Elayne should live to be 200, easily, so I never understood why she wasn't around. Clearly wasn't assassination, I guess voluntary retirement? It was a poorly thought out part of that plotline.

As Loial's book will surely mention, Queen Elayne is believed to have suffered a mid-life crisis and ran off to live in a "free love" collective on Tremalking with a darkly handsome stranger and two other women. Her children refuse to speak of it.

Ozymandias
01-09-2013, 04:31 PM
Any number of things could have happened to Elayne in that future. Even Aes Sedai can have accidents.

Like what kind of accident? Either she's (a) been murdered, which I feel like would have warranted a mention in that whole scene, (b) had an immediately lethal accident, the likes of which are difficult to imagine for a channeler of her strength and experience (or eventual experience), or (c) she retired voluntarily in the prime of life.

Did a piece of the new Palace under construction fall off and crack her skull open? One she didn't even have one instant to react to? I don't mean to sound like an ass... we have almost no examples of Aes Sedai dying in non-Power related accidents. You just feel like in the nice detail we're given of future Randland, that would be mentioned as important.

Davian93
01-09-2013, 04:34 PM
Like what kind of accident? Either she's (a) been murdered, which I feel like would have warranted a mention in that whole scene, (b) had an immediately lethal accident, the likes of which are difficult to imagine for a channeler of her strength and experience (or eventual experience), or (c) she retired voluntarily in the prime of life.

Did a piece of the new Palace under construction fall off and crack her skull open? One she didn't even have one instant to react to? I don't mean to sound like an ass... we have almost no examples of Aes Sedai dying in non-Power related accidents. You just feel like in the nice detail we're given of future Randland, that would be mentioned as important.

She could burn herself out/kill herself accidentally while researching angreal/sa'angreal/ter'angreal...

She could be bit by a poisonous snake like that Wise One who was 300 years old. etc etc.

Tedman
01-09-2013, 04:51 PM
This is why I Didn't understand who beta read those scenes.

Since I read Avis visions I said to myself, where are ANY OF THE CURRENT CHANNELERS.

They live to be 500-800 years old and yet not a single one, including avi, was around.

Give me a break. It was just badly done, and a real WOT Fan\HCFF did not Beta read or whatever as far as I'm concerned.

Edit: and it is so poorly thought out in my opinion because of the conversation with Min and Cadsuance. Min sees all this but if the DO wins the pattern goes away (or so they think- perhaps min cannot see the DO rewritten timeline). So in order to get to the visions Min would have, main characters have to have lived through the last battle, but theyre all dead with nary a mention soon after. Just not so deftly done is my two cents.

Terez
01-09-2013, 04:54 PM
The betas' influence was very limited. They were basically only consulted for continuity, and in cases where there wasn't an unambiguous error I think they were probably ignored. That said, I don't see why Elayne and Aviendha should have stuck around when their children were grown enough to take care of themselves. I'm sure they went to be with Rand.

ShadowbaneX
01-09-2013, 04:59 PM
Plot holes, mack trucks, etc, etc.

Dom
01-09-2013, 05:00 PM
She could burn herself out/kill herself accidentally while researching angreal/sa'angreal/ter'angreal...

She could be bit by a poisonous snake like that Wise One who was 300 years old. etc etc.

With Cadsuane as Amyrlin, I bet she reminded Elayne she's just an accepted - technically, then she put her out of the Tower, made her join the Kin since she liked them so much, and Elayne spent the rest of her life providing Gateways to her daugther and the WT-approved regent of Andor.

Seriously... Elayne probably didn't last long without Birgitte to watch her back. A few months top would be my guess.

She probably ran after a band of Tinkers that stole her babies and was never heard of again.

Tedman
01-09-2013, 05:04 PM
The betas' influence was very limited. They were basically only consulted for continuity, and in cases where there wasn't an unambiguous error I think they were probably ignored. That said, I don't see why Elayne and Aviendha should have stuck around when their children were grown enough to take care of themselves. I'm sure they went to be with Rand.

So not a single wise one we know lived to that point in her vision? If we see Rhuarcs son\grandon, we would expect someone else.

I agree that are always plausible explanations, and you would know a lot more than I would about all this... but I don't like when central and key points are based around I'm not sure what. Nakomi + Avis vision were HUGE for the Aiel story and they just felt not 100% thought through.

Davian93
01-09-2013, 05:07 PM
With Cadsuane as Amyrlin, I bet she reminded Elayne she's just an accepted - technically, then she put her out of the Tower, made her join the Kin since she liked them so much, and Elayne spent the rest of her life providing Gateways to her daugther and the WT-approved regent of Andor.

Seriously... Elayne probably didn't last long without Birgitte to watch her back. A few months top would be my guess.

She probably ran after a band of Tinkers that stole her babies and was never heard of again.

Elayne was disposed in favor of her daughter after her 35th kidnapping. The Andoran treasury simply ran out of ransom funds at that point.

Dom
01-09-2013, 06:20 PM
Elayne was disposed in favor of her daughter after her 35th kidnapping. The Andoran treasury simply ran out of ransom funds at that point.

LOL. That came shortly after the peasants uprising known as the "Ransom Tax Revolts"

Gleemen prone to hyperbole turned this into "The Fifty Kidnappings of Queen Elayne". It's very popular, as it's one of those where the audience participate in the tale. At the end of each chapter of the tale, the Gleeman asks the audience "And then guess what?" and they chant back "and then they paid to get her back."

Mid Fourth Age Mothers commonly invoke her story to warn their little girls not to go play out of their sight "don't let your little sister out of your sight, she'll pull an Elayne on us!". By then the tale has become "The Hundred flights of Elayne the runaway".

fionwe1987
01-09-2013, 06:57 PM
Some variant of this has always bothered me. We see in Avi's future-vision that Elayne's granddaughter is ruling Andor. But it is only a couple hundred years or so after the events of the series. Elayne should live to be 200, easily, so I never understood why she wasn't around. Clearly wasn't assassination, I guess voluntary retirement? It was a poorly thought out part of that plotline.

The serious answer to this is that Avi's vision represented one possible future. In that future, Elayne may well have died during the Last Battle. Who's to say she didn't have a forced C-section on the field as Mellar intended?

kivo
01-09-2013, 07:23 PM
1. How does Lan/Nynaeve rebuild Malkier now that the Blight is gone?


There are a couple of ways they could go here but I think the "borderland" nations would probably survive. The Kandori Prince who idolized Lan will probably be King one day. "Borderland" in quotes because the Blight is now gone, so basically Lan could potentially expand Malkier all the way to Shayol Ghul if he wanted to. Was it made clear whether Trollocs and Fades still exist post Dark One entrapment? If that's not the case, I could see the Red Aiel, Trollocs and Fades still holding out for a while until they dwindle away by turning on each other, leaving Malkier to its old borders.


2. How do Perrin/Faile take over Saldaea now that she's Queen? Will Tam remain as Steward of the Two Rivers since Perrin will be busy in Saldaea?


That was my feeling too. Elayne would throw too much of a hissy fit if Perrin tried to keep the Two Rivers and the threat of it joining with Saldaea, scooping up Baerlon and its mines, and reforming Manetheren would be too much for her to tolerate.


3. What are Elayne's next steps? Does she move her capitol to Cairhien? Does she rebuild Camelyn? Does she run off with Rand?


That's a tremendous amount of land for one ruler to hold. She's got quit a challenge there. Caemlyn will be rebuilt of course, but perhaps she rules from somewhere more central like Aringill for now. Keeps up the annual conjugal visits with Rand? Elayne and Aviendha become pillow friends?


4. What of the Ogier? Do they go and open the Book of Translation now that they've done their part (ala the Elves going across the Sea), do they wait a few years, decades, an entire Age? Clearly there is enough time for Loial to write his book afterall.


There's a lot of rebuilding to do and they are useful for that so hopefully they stick around. The victory would seem to remove the urgency behind opening the Book of Translation for now.


5. Does Mattin Stepaneos take his crown back now that Rand is "dead" and Gregorian isn't King regardless of what he thinks.


I was thinking Mattin would get the throne back too. He and Darlin can rattle their swords once in a while, and then realize its just not the same anymore. Both have too much to worry about from the Seanchan to make the Tear-Illian rivalry really have teeth anymore.


6. How does Cadsuane handle the Tower, Does she follow through with Egwene's plans to integrate the Wise Ones & Windfinders? etc etc


She's not much longer to live so I think she probably ends up having a short but transformative reign much like Egwene did. The two of them together could accomplish more in 5 years than the previous Amyrlins did in 1000 years. I could see a unification with the male channelers and Logain succeeding her, or perhaps even Narishma.


7. Do the remaining powers invade Shara to finish off what might be left of the Shadow's forces?


Probably not worth while. Too far away. Too much to recover from. And the Seanchan also have too much to do to get their own house in order. Knotai and Fortouna are no doubt off to the main continent to get that back together. We know Perrin and Rand are no longer ta'varen... but does the "center of it all" comment from the Fins indicate perhaps Knotai still is ta'veren? I imagine they leave Berelain in charge of the Westlands holdings since she would be such a high ranking member of the Blood by default. Berelin, Beslan, Galad form the core leadership of local holdings while most of the rest head back to take back Seandar, et al.



8. Where to the Aiel end up living? They're clearly not going back to the Waste now that they're a UN Peacekeeping force for Randland...at least not all of them are going back? Are the "Aiel" as we know them dead and the Shaido the only "Aiel" remaining, ala the Remnant of a Remnant?


Some of my own questions:


How long does it take the damane thing to fall apart?
Is Min pregnant too? She and Rand sexed it up the most. Or did they just do it Illian style a lot? lol
Moiraine and Thom… what's next? Maybe govern Cairhein for Elayne? Advise her in a lower stress role? Or just retire to the country? Thom seems like too much of a ham for that.
The Whitecloaks… finished or re-energized? Rolled up into Mayene (or Seanchan if Berelain rules the Westland holdings?)
What does Avi do with Graendal after 101 days?
Valan Luca?
Will Elayne resist naming her twins Gawyn and Egwene?
Does a mysterious bold chinned Wanderer show up and teach the Tinkers to Sing?
Does it ever occur to Perrin that he napped through like 90% of the Last Battle?


If we use unfulfilled prophecies as a gauge of things that will still occur, I think Rand still needs to take a boat trip with 3 ladies and Cadsuane still needs to teach the Ashaman laughter and tears. What else is out there as unfulfilled prophecy?

Karistina
01-09-2013, 08:48 PM
The serious answer to this is that Avi's vision represented one possible future. In that future, Elayne may well have died during the Last Battle. Who's to say she didn't have a forced C-section on the field as Mellar intended?
This. Thank you for making me not have to type it out in my flu-ridden state.

Ieyasu
01-09-2013, 10:16 PM
Is Min pregnant too? She and Rand sexed it up the most. Or did they just do it Illian style a lot? lol


Min used the contraceptive tea, the same tea that Aviendha said she would not take...

KyleLitke
01-09-2013, 10:29 PM
This is why I Didn't understand who beta read those scenes.

Since I read Avis visions I said to myself, where are ANY OF THE CURRENT CHANNELERS.

They live to be 500-800 years old and yet not a single one, including avi, was around.

Give me a break. It was just badly done, and a real WOT Fan\HCFF did not Beta read or whatever as far as I'm concerned.

Edit: and it is so poorly thought out in my opinion because of the conversation with Min and Cadsuance. Min sees all this but if the DO wins the pattern goes away (or so they think- perhaps min cannot see the DO rewritten timeline). So in order to get to the visions Min would have, main characters have to have lived through the last battle, but theyre all dead with nary a mention soon after. Just not so deftly done is my two cents.

Hold on though. With the exception pretty much being the final part of the vision, weren't we seeing a world where the Seanchan had fought everyone and essentially taken over? Why is it out of the ordinary that some, even most of the channelers would have thrown themselves into the conflict and been killed or taken?

And you're asking where are all of the current channelers, but am I remembering this vision wrong? Some of you are talking about this vision like it was a book long story about everything happening in the world. It was a chapter or two being shown very specifically through the eyes of one person, some taking place quite a long way from the books. Why would Avi's descendants, distant ones in some cases, be sitting around wondering about virtually ANY of the present day channelers, except perhaps Avi herself?

The one exception to me is Elayne, since the last vision was before the Seanchan had risen up and was in Andor.

Maybe I'm remembering it wrong, but not once did I find it the least bit strange that Avi's great great great great great great grandchild didn't wonder about Nynaeve or any other present day channeler, even if they were still alive. Elayne was the only one out of the ordinary, and there could be a ton of reasons why she wasn't Queen...died, stepped down to go be with Rand, etc.

kivo
01-10-2013, 12:13 AM
Min used the contraceptive tea, the same tea that Aviendha said she would not take...

But can it really stop ta'veren swimmers?

Ieyasu
01-10-2013, 12:55 AM
But can it really stop ta'veren swimmers?

well, the two who didnt drink the tea got preggers... the one that did didnt... theres also an RJ interview quote saying that the tea is very safe and effective... so yes, it really stopped Rand's swimmers...

bowlwoman
01-10-2013, 04:41 AM
well, the two who didnt drink the tea got preggers... the one that did didnt... theres also an RJ interview quote saying that the tea is very safe and effective... so yes, it really stopped Rand's swimmers...

Actually, Rand's swimmers are moot. Contraceptive tea would stop Min's ovation.

Davian93
01-10-2013, 07:04 AM
Actually, Rand's swimmers are moot. Contraceptive tea would stop Min's ovation.

The real-life version of that tea (yes, there was a real life version of "moon tea" and it was used during the Middle Ages) didnt quite work that way...it was more similar to the morning after pill in that it had abortive qualities to discourage any sort of conception taking place. It didnt stop ovulation. The real-life version wasnt nearly as effective as the fictional one and an improper dosage was quite deadly.

Boli
01-10-2013, 08:59 AM
In truth the biggest issue the countries will have to face is the "Dragon's Peace"

If they follow it "to the letter"; you have a lot of empty space between the countries... and some destroyed countries will have no infrastructure to support . e.g. Kandor will not be able to support being Kandor.

The start of the 4th age looks to be a *very* interesting time indeed.

Davian93
01-10-2013, 09:05 AM
In truth the biggest issue the countries will have to face is the "Dragon's Peace"

If they follow it "to the letter"; you have a lot of empty space between the countries... and some destroyed countries will have no infrastructure to support . e.g. Kandor will not be able to support being Kandor.

The start of the 4th age looks to be a *very* interesting time indeed.

The one upside is that the border between Seanchan and the other Westland countries is pretty defined with no gaps (even Almoth Plain has been divided down the middle so to speak). The other gaps are all "behind the lines" so to speak so it'll come down to the arbitration process which I believe was in the treaty...enforced by the Aiel of course.

Ozymandias
01-10-2013, 09:23 AM
This. Thank you for making me not have to type it out in my flu-ridden state.

So in that case, it lessens the impact of the entire plotline. Because the likeliest futures would all include multiple channellers, main characters, important plot drivers, being alive a mere century after Tarmon Gai'don.

So why should I even care about the whole Aiel plotline if there was only ever the slightest breath of a possibility of it ever even happening?

Dom
01-10-2013, 09:31 AM
The one upside is that the border between Seanchan and the other Westland countries is pretty defined with no gaps (even Almoth Plain has been divided down the middle so to speak). The other gaps are all "behind the lines" so to speak so it'll come down to the arbitration process which I believe was in the treaty...enforced by the Aiel of course.

The arbitration process will also have to take care of the few border contests. All well and good to state "the borders stand as they are", but Brandon forgot the nations don't currently agree on every border (Illian and Tear, Tear and Mayene, Cairhien claims more north than it actually rules in truth and that isn't necessarily recognized by others etc.). There are also many communities/towns located in areas outside the national borders, and they aren't included in the treaty and will be forced into it.... the whole "greater" Tar Valon region is no longer claimed by the White Tower, Caralain's Grass, the Black Hills, communities between Shienar and Cairhien, the region of Katar considers itself sovereign but Arad Doman considers it part of the country and so on. There are large swaths of northern Altara beyond the Lugard Road the Seanchan don't effectively control yet, but that by the treaty will be forced to accept their rule. The matter of the Whitecloaks was completely overlooked.

All of this can be solved, but it's somewhat less "fair and just" and simplistic than Brandon made it all appear.

The biggest flaw is probably that the White Tower didn't raise more of a shout over the fact by this treaty the Amyrlin totally loses her traditionally perceived central role above the nations. The treaty is a massive blow to the White Tower's prestige, the end of a role the Aes Sedai have considered theirs by right for 3000 years, and the Sisters fell in line with all that much, much too easily for the whole thing to feel realistic. They pulled down Amyrlins for much less...

Davian93
01-10-2013, 09:34 AM
The Aes Sedai rightly go back to their "Servants" role which will help everyone quite a bit...Amyrlins, like Popes, shouldn't have secular power.

fionwe1987
01-10-2013, 09:41 AM
The biggest flaw is probably that the White Tower didn't raise more of a shout over the fact by this treaty the Amyrlin totally loses her traditionally perceived central role above the nations. The treaty is a massive blow to the White Tower's prestige, the end of a role the Aes Sedai have considered theirs by right for 3000 years, and the Sisters fell in line with all that much, much too easily for the whole thing to feel realistic. They pulled down Amyrlins for much less...

Oh yes. Brandon totally dropped the ball here. The moment Aviendha asked to be included, and when Perrin made the suggestion of the Aiel as enforcers, I was waiting for Egwene to say that its perfect, the White Tower will offer guidance and support, the Aiel will handle the military execution. Instead, Rand made the arbitration process subject the the Aiel's judgment, and the other rulers went along with that! I fail to see how twenty years after a massive war with them, the rulers felt comfortable having the Aiel as enforcers.

And the White Tower signing at all is a mystery. The White Tower has never declared war, has never fought to increase its borders, etc. Why would it need to sign a document to affirm its anti-war policy? Shouldn't they have made a hue and cry about that?

And how does this take into account the White Tower's treaty with the Aiel and the Sea Folk? Wise Ones will soon be Tower trained too. And Aes Sedai will soon have deep connections with the Wise Ones. Since Rand said the Wise Ones were partly responsible for deciding on disputes, he's just created a new political battleground where the Tower will inevitably have a say. So the Tower will have most influence on the enforcers of a treaty the Tower itself is subject to. It makes no sense.

Dom
01-10-2013, 10:29 AM
The Aes Sedai rightly go back to their "Servants" role which will help everyone quite a bit...Amyrlins, like Popes, shouldn't have secular power.

I agree fully, it's an outcome I actually wished to see and that I've long theorized RJ had in mind. The whole matter of the Kin serving a nation seemed an arrow pointed in that direction, something Egwene wouldn't accept at first, yet by the end realized all AS had to return to a life of service, like the WO with the Aiel, like the Windfinders. We got that seed... then like so many other things, Brandon let it all peter out to nothing. The last we heard of that theme was Egwene's anger at the Kin deal and Elayne's thoughts that somehow she'd make Egwene accept it. Elayne was set to be instrumental in bringing the AS back to being "Servants of All", like she sees a Queen being servant to her people. She was the one set to make Egwene accept this. But Brandon left it all at the stage of a seed.

My gripes are how all too easy the book made it acceptable to the Aes Sedai. The whole "you have to return to your role as Servants of All for real", which is something LTT could have asked the Aes Sedai for, was barely touched on indirectly by hints. The WT should definitely have struggled more to accept this.. even after they've been forced into the treaty. To really work, it would have required some POV of sisters still struggling with the idea, having "epiphanies". Lelaine or Cadsuane would have been perfect for this sort of thing.... Lelaine as the POV of the AS totally pissed off and already developping ideas in her head to undo the treaty post TG, perhaps toying with the ideas to unseat Egwene for having signed that treaty, an Elayne POV where she is the one most accepting, and even somewhat happy if a little apprehensive maybe of this outcome - a vision foreshadowed by her apprehensions concerning the power the WT would have over Andor with her being AS - she intended to put her foot down about this with Egwene by KOD. Nynaeve would have been perfect as POV of a sister altogether happy with this, it's what she always instinctively supported and she meant to live that way herself, and thinking she'd had much work to convince Egwene tto see this is right - and maybe a Cadsuane POV where she struggles with the notion, wonders if Rand isn't right and this isn't a good thing, that serving in the "real world" is what she's done herself all her life, staying away from the Ivory Tower of Tar Valon, wary of that trap - and pushes it all aside with a "Phaww... let's keep my mind focussed on the Shadow where it should be, that fool girl let those fools raised her Amyrlin (insert suitable grudging praise of Egwene's accomplishments), she'll have to handle that mess herself.. and if I survive this, I'll make sure to stay well away from it all!"... making her becoming the Amyrlin at the end even more ironic.

Brandon just made it all... a fact, accepted just like that, in a blink. It's like the WT and Egwene didn't even realize what truly happened, just let the secular power they've claimed as their right be stripped from them without barely a comment. It's rather poor, very unrealistic.

Davian93
01-10-2013, 10:32 AM
I could totally see the Hall completely rejecting it after the fact...Egwene (or any Amyrlin) could sign anything they want but its not binding given the nature of the WT's gov't. The Amyrlin's word is law...until it isn't. We've seen that said a whole bunch of times in the books.

fionwe1987
01-10-2013, 10:48 AM
I could totally see the Hall completely rejecting it after the fact...Egwene (or any Amyrlin) could sign anything they want but its not binding given the nature of the WT's gov't. The Amyrlin's word is law...until it isn't. We've seen that said a whole bunch of times in the books.
Except, of course, Brandon had Egwene sign it after consulting with Romanda, Lelaine and Saerin, who between them control the Hall, and are its most senior members. So with what face can the Hall oppose it now? Saerin even spoke in support of it, and Egwene was shown to not care about the Dragon's Peace at all! Its a mess.

Karistina
01-10-2013, 10:50 AM
So in that case, it lessens the impact of the entire plotline. Because the likeliest futures would all include multiple channellers, main characters, important plot drivers, being alive a mere century after Tarmon Gai'don.

So why should I even care about the whole Aiel plotline if there was only ever the slightest breath of a possibility of it ever even happening?

If by "entire plotline" you mean the subplot that began in ToM when Aviendha went through the rings again...well, I think you missed the point.

Aviendha was only witnessing the small part of the world through her descendants' eyes. They wouldn't necessarily know or care about the same people we wanted to see, or if they did, they wouldn't necessarily be thinking about them in that momentary glimpse of their lives that Aviendha saw.

The point was that the future is not written in stone. If events had continued along the same path they had been on at that moment that Aviendha returned to Rhuidean, the future looked very, very bleak, despite the world surviving the [poorly named] Last Battle. But as it was sort of beaten over our heads many times in AMoL - not the least of which during Rand's reality duel with the Dark One - choice is what defines us. They changed the variables - intentionally and unintentionally - to prevent this version of the future from happening. Aviendha's vision showed her the unforeseen and unintended consequences of following the path they were on. It was a warning. It served its purpose.

bowlwoman
01-10-2013, 12:39 PM
The real-life version of that tea (yes, there was a real life version of "moon tea" and it was used during the Middle Ages) didnt quite work that way...it was more similar to the morning after pill in that it had abortive qualities to discourage any sort of conception taking place. It didnt stop ovulation. The real-life version wasnt nearly as effective as the fictional one and an improper dosage was quite deadly.

Yeah, I know all about that. Black and blue cohosh, rue, Queen Anne's lace seeds, etc., are still considered herbal abortifacients today. Contemporary midwives still use some of them to induce labor in women who are at term and elect to do a more "natural" birth.

Wild yam and pomegranite have historically been used as herbal contraceptives, which CAN inhibit ovulation.

And since RandLand has forkroot, which inhibits channelling, it stands to reason they also have an herb or herb combo that can reliably inhibit conception. Who knows. Since channelling seems to be linked to hormones (onset around puberty, Elayne's problems channeling during her first trimester, etc.), maybe forkroot is also the herb used for general female contraception. It was never explicitly stated in the text what forkroot was used for before its discovery in nullifying channelers.

Edited to add: Ok, yeah, it's heartleaf, not forkroot, for contraception.

Davian93
01-10-2013, 12:49 PM
Yeah, I know all about that. Black and blue cohosh, rue, Queen Anne's lace seeds, etc., are still considered herbal abortifacients today. Contemporary midwives still use some of them to induce labor in women who are at term and elect to do a more "natural" birth.

Wild yam and pomegranite have historically been used as herbal contraceptives, which CAN inhibit ovulation.

And since RandLand has forkroot, which inhibits channelling, it stands to reason they also have an herb or herb combo that can reliably inhibit conception. Who knows. Since channelling seems to be linked to hormones (onset around puberty, Elayne's problems channeling during her first trimester, etc.), maybe forkroot is also the herb used for general female contraception. It was never explicitly stated in the text what forkroot was used for before its discovery in nullifying channelers.

As I recall, there were a good number of girls that died accidenally trying to take it in areas where abortions are/were tough to come by.

bowlwoman
01-10-2013, 12:51 PM
Brandon just made it all... a fact, accepted just like that, in a blink. It's like the WT and Egwene didn't even realize what truly happened, just let the secular power they've claimed as their right be stripped from them without barely a comment. It's rather poor, very unrealistic.

I think you just summed up my frustrations with the entire book. I really missed the nuances, the back-and-forths, the verbal sallies, if you will, the interactions between the characters. As much as I griped about baths and tea and "zOMG Faile's still missing!" during the other books, at least the characterization was still there. I think by trying to streamline the amount of material to be included, Brandon took out the heart of the story.

I seriously thought, about 2/3 of the way through "The Last Battle", why I had invested the time reading, slogging, and mowing through 13 other books if the end was just so cut-and-dried. I think Brandon really missed a good opportunity to give the book life by including all those little one-offs and slight POV changes and sprouting the seeds he planted that others have mentioned in this thread and elsewhere. I'm glad I got the resolution to RandLand, but I don't feel that I got the best culmination of the characters and their motives.

bowlwoman
01-10-2013, 12:58 PM
As I recall, there were a good number of girls that died accidenally trying to take it in areas where abortions are/were tough to come by.

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong. It's bad stuff, and I would never do it myself. My sister drank castor oil to induce contractions with my nephew, and my mom pitched a fit about it. A friend elected to use a midwife for her first child and almost died because the cohosh herbs didn't induce labor enough and she didn't go to a hospital until almost 30 hours after her water broke.

I'm just saying, in this fictional setting, I'd be more likely to believe there was an effective and reliable herbal contraceptive tea than everyone using an abortifacient one. Less stress on the body, for one thing.

Davian93
01-10-2013, 01:28 PM
Oh yeah, don't get me wrong. It's bad stuff, and I would never do it myself. My sister drank castor oil to induce contractions with my nephew, and my mom pitched a fit about it. A friend elected to use a midwife for her first child and almost died because the cohosh herbs didn't induce labor enough and she didn't go to a hospital until almost 30 hours after her water broke.

I'm just saying, in this fictional setting, I'd be more likely to believe there was an effective and reliable herbal contraceptive tea than everyone using an abortifacient one. Less stress on the body, for one thing.

Good point...so Min's comment of "She forgot to drink moon tea" is the equivalent of "She forgot to take her pill".

So basically moon tea is only 96% effective...

Ieyasu
01-10-2013, 01:53 PM
I do not think they ever say if they drink the tea before the sex or after... that would be the determining factor as to whether its a contraceptive tea or an abortaficent tea...

Dom
01-10-2013, 02:13 PM
I do not think they ever say if they drink the tea before the sex or after... that would be the determining factor as to whether its a contraceptive tea or an abortaficent tea...

Actually, they do say they take it before intercourse:

Of course, she could have drunk the heartleaf tea before lying with him (KOD, A Different Skill)

Ieyasu
01-10-2013, 02:18 PM
Actually, they do say they take it before intercourse:

(KOD, A Different Skill)

Well there you have it...contraceptive!