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jana
01-10-2013, 11:12 AM
My best to worst:

tSR
LoC
tDR
FoH
CoS
KoD
tEotW
tGH
WH
tGS
ToM
aMoL
PoD
CoT

Davian93
01-10-2013, 11:22 AM
TSR
LOC
TDR
FOH
tEotW
TGH
CoS
WH
PoD
TGS
ToM
KoD
aMoL
CoT

I guess....those last 4-5 are pretty much the same other than a massive dropoff between all of them and CoT.

Terez
01-10-2013, 11:27 AM
I can't rate them; too many of them are too close.

Davian93
01-10-2013, 11:28 AM
I can't rate them; too many of them are too close.

I ran into that problem too...

Ieyasu
01-10-2013, 11:37 AM
In order of most fav to least fav:
Tdr
Tsr
Loc
Tfh
Teotw
Kod
The rest of rj's books I like about the same:
Acos
Tpod
Wh
Cot
My least favorite in the main series:
Tgh
And then comes bs's books:
Amol
tom
Tgs
And finally, the only things I like less than bs's:
Ns
Bwb

suttree
01-10-2013, 12:01 PM
TSR
tFoH
KoD
LoC
TDR
TGH
CoS
tPoD
tEotW
WH
tGS
aMoL
CoT
ToM

Ieyasu
01-10-2013, 12:08 PM
TSR
tFoH
KoD
LoC
TGH
CoS
tPoD
tEotW
WH
tGS
aMoL
CoT
ToM

You didn't like The Dragon Reborn? Or just forgot it on your list?

suttree
01-10-2013, 12:10 PM
Fixed. Thanks Iyasu.

Ieyasu
01-10-2013, 12:15 PM
Fixed. Thanks Iyasu.


Its my favoritest fav of the series so I noticed it right away heheh no probs!

Davian93
01-10-2013, 12:22 PM
Its my favoritest fav of the series so I noticed it right away heheh no probs!

I think its the most focused book of the series and its right up there with TSR for me. Depending on the reread, I tend to like TDR more.

Dom
01-10-2013, 12:34 PM
I can't really rate them, not make a simple list 1 to 14.

I admire the cunning of the three earliest books, even more so in the light of AMOL, but at the same I much prefer the style and scope of the mid and late series. I'm never a huge fan of "first acts", and the first three form a first act, so... I always prefer it when I reach the point where everything expands and gets intricate and layered.
I'm also a big fan of history, so the approach RJ took from TSR onward forcibly pleases me more than the more simple, more traditionally epic first three books.

As a "story", TGH was always the WOT book I liked the least... a long chase sequence in the end.. but AMOL proved it was just as cleverly buit as EOTW and TDR, and there's Lanfear that also redeems it for me. She's part of what gets me through it, let's say.

I can't rate the Sanderson books with RJ's. That's just... not fair. I could rate RJ's outline, as futile guess work as this is... Sanderson's books I can easily rate together though:

AMOL, slightly above
TGS
and TOM a long shot beneath those in satisfaction.

Then my favourite book altogether is TSR. Perfect mirror structure, genius theme development. It made me a big fan of Perrin (and many of the side characters with him, incl. Gaul and Faile), solid enough to get me through his more plowing late series arc without feeling much the annoyance others did at the whole kidnapping arc.

Next might be LOC: great story, great use of motifs and themes, and I rather like the developments with Rand and Egwene and Mat.. and Verin. I also like the AS storyline of TPOD, but don't care much for the Rand-Seanchan arc (though it's a great foreshadowing of "The Great Storm" and the compact of the ending and all).

I love a lot the WH/COT/KOD sequence.

I care a little less for ACOS and TFOH, but not that much. Never cared much for Sammael, notably. But then there's Graendal, and AS politics, and it's when I start really liking Mat and Elayne. Etc.

In the end I'm stuck with "I prefer roughly the books from TSR to KOD". TSR globally is my favourite and then it's more difficult as I have favourite arcs in all the others, and arcs I care less for in most of them.

The first three I admire more in analytic way, they appeal to my literary analysis side far more than they appeal to the reader/amateur of storytelling side of me.

Brandon's books.. well, they have their strengths and many flaws. I got fun enough with TGS and AMOL, despite annoyances, and far more annoyance than fun with TOM, despite liking well enough Brandon's Perrin.

I suspect if RJ wrote AMOL, I'd place it midway or so. I'm really more and "act 2" kind of guy. The resolution phase often disappoint me, and the act 1 phase often makes me impatient.

Boli
01-10-2013, 01:24 PM
I'm surprised everyone rates AMOL so low; Demandred turned out to be my favorite forsaken. I love the twist where you find out he's going/gone mad. Kind of like Ishmael in the earlier books but actually effective.

I personally can never rate them as singular books.

TeotW, TGH & tDR are one awesome book to me

tSR, tFoH and LoC CoS are another awesome book

a lull with PoD WH CoT

before concluding with KoD, tGS, ToM, aMoL

Ieyasu
01-10-2013, 01:57 PM
I'm surprised everyone rates AMOL so low; Demandred turned out to be my favorite forsaken. I love the twist where you find out he's going/gone mad. Kind of like Ishmael in the earlier books but actually effective.

Hated it. Thought he turned out to be one of the lamest of the Chosen...but I loved how bad ass Lan is. Was fitting he died to a 'muggle'

I did love how Ishmael's punishment was his continued existance/return to live

I rank it so low because it sucked... got so sick and tired of every single character suddenly knowing everything... needed a few scenes with ppl opening up and sharing the knowledge...or atleast a few thoughts... like Egwene suddenly knowing about Moridin and the like...would have been nice to get a flash back or atleast a thought to explain why everyone knew everything that before was known by seperate ppl...

Dom
01-10-2013, 01:59 PM
I'm surprised everyone rates AMOL so low; Demandred turned out to be my favorite forsaken. I love the twist where you find out he's going/gone mad. Kind of like Ishmael in the earlier books but actually effective

I like RJ planned that. I liked it all.

I'm annoyed that because of the book split Brandon didn't properly set it up.

It came... out of the left field. Once the surprise is over, all that remained was the lack of depth of the arc.

I get the feeling RJ meant for the Seanchan and their "dark leader", their corrupted prophecies, to become the final red herring for Demandred, but Brandon merely hinted. Big lost opportunity.

I've been thoroughly satisfied if Brandon had mislead us introducing the matter of prophecies Demandred was fulfilling in TGS etc. Shara theories would have shown up, of course. So what? We had a lot else right too, after all. He went for the big plot twist, and as usual when creators do that, it's all there is and it doesn't satisfy me much. I'm not very fond of Brandon's love of "plot twists" (I hate how he split Graendal's escape from the Rand side of the confrontation, for example. It would have fit so well with the themes of TGS, to show it was all for almost nothing. But Brandon chose the cheap surprise.)

I think it's an example of how the book split likely forced compromises. RJ planned this arc to appear all through one book, without the hcff having two periods of one year+ to puzzle it all out. Brandon decided to preserve the surprise, at the detriment of proper, interesting build up.

Personally I don't want to rate Brandon's books and RJ's together. I enjoyed them all less than any by RJ's (with the possible exception of TGH, on my first read, I almost stopped there) but it would have been the same with anyone else but RJ writing them, I suspect.. so I don't find it fair to Brandon to judge them this way. I prefer to rate them apart.

Davian93
01-10-2013, 02:26 PM
Am I the only one that really likes TGH? I thought it was a great book actually...especially during rereads.

Dom
01-10-2013, 02:39 PM
Am I the only one that really likes TGH? I thought it was a great book actually...especially during rereads.

It got better on re-reads. I still don't find it that great, story wise, but there's a lot of things I like about it.

Originally, I didn't like much EOTW either. I took me three times to actually finish it. I hated nearly everything... the Tolkien rip-off of the beginning - the first time I stopped there. The second time I was put off by balloon-Mordeth and stopped there. The third time I was annoyed by all the fairy tale meets Arthuriana references in Caemlyn. The little princess healing little birdies? Really? I nearly threw the book away. I was a long time before I understood and appreciated the humor behind all this... but it was so close to the ending I finished it. I was well-versed in mythology and folklore, so instead of seeing the humor, I saw HUGE annoying ropes. The only reason I went on with the series is because I had bought TGH and TDR too, and there was the prologue of TGH in my edition. The prologue introigued me enough to decide to read TGH after all. The rest bored me a bit - I still see it as a bit of a glorified chase sequence - but I decided to read TDR since I had it.

I really became a fan of the series only with TSR. I came to appreciate the earlier volumes on re reads only. I like them well enough today, but they're still not the part of the series I prefer.

I went into the series on a recommendation, and the person who sold me to reading it did so by describing what it is from TSR/LOC, without warning me the first three books were more conventional and simple Fantasy. So I had expectations the three books really didn't meet.

Tamyrlin
01-10-2013, 02:43 PM
Am I the only one that really likes TGH? I thought it was a great book actually...especially during rereads.

TGH is in my top 5, but so is ToM...which apparently for the few that have answered so far, is a bit unheard of among this crowd.

Though I do understand what Dom means by not judging/rating Sanderson/RJ books together. In essence, when doing so, I try to judge them on the merits of the scope/intent/plot/characters that RJ seems to have had (for the three Brandon wrote), while ignoring the annoyances. For me that is a fair way to put them all together. Though, an actual 1-14 list, as is clear from the responses, isn't exactly how it works out for me either. I have my favorites, and then the rest I do not enjoy as much for one reason or the next. At least that is how they sit in my head these days.

Dom
01-10-2013, 03:02 PM
TGH is in my top 5, but so is ToM...which apparently for the few that have answered so far, is a bit unheard of among this crowd.

Though I do understand what Dom means by not judging/rating Sanderson/RJ books together. In essence, when doing so, I try to judge them on the merits of the scope/intent/plot/characters that RJ seems to have had (for the three Brandon wrote), while ignoring the annoyances. For me that is a fair way to put them all together. Though, an actual 1-14 list, as is clear from the responses, isn't exactly how it works out for me either. I have my favorites, and then the rest I do not enjoy as much for one reason or the next. At least that is how they sit in my head these days.

If I had to rate them your way, I'd put TGS and TOM combined fairly high. My problem with TOM is largely one of structure. I dawned on me early reading it that Brandon's choice to divide the work by story lines had really, really spoiled the Perrin/Mat arc. It also completely annoyed me he decided to continue Rand's and Egwene's arcs on another timeline as Mat/Perrin caught up. For some reason it was totally book breaking for me, didn't enjoy it much. It's all the more unexpected that I love Perrin, of the main cast he's the one I think Brandon wrote best and I'm happy where the arc lead. Still as a novel I found TOM atrocious - cursed some through the whole thing in frustration that by just re ordering the material properly so it's chronological not only TOM would have been awesome, but TGS would also have been improved (I don't agree with Brandon's opinion on this, obviously. yes, Rand and Egwene worked really well, but that was achieved at undermining Rand-Perrin parallels, Egwene-Perrin ones too. And I'm not happy at all with what Brandon did with Mat.).

I did try a re read alternating between TGS and TOM. I like TOM much better this way, but it's rather clunky.. new mirroring of themes become apparent, the whole looks darker, more desperate/frustrating etc. it's just... better and probably closer to RJ's intent. But to work that way, as one book, it would require Brandon to optimize the whole thing to be one novel, as for now it destroys his efforts toward that in TGS.

KyleLitke
01-10-2013, 07:12 PM
I'll give it a shot but I'm not sure I'm removed enough from Memory of Light. Could move up or down. And as others said a lot of these are extremely close and my list could change if I did it again tomorrow.

1. The Shadow Rising
2. The Fires of Heaven
3. The Dragon Reborn
4. Lord of Chaos
5. The Eye of the World
6. The Great Hunt
7. A Crown of Swords
8. Winter's Heart
9. A Memory of Light
10. Towers of Midnight
11. The Gathering Storm
12. Knife of Dreams
13. The Path of Daggers
14. Crossroads of Twilight

Winter's Heart is maybe my toughest to rank, because it has some absolutely fantastic scenes and also a decent amount of stuff I just didn't care about that much. It's definitely below the first seven books, but after that I switched it multiple times. For now I'm putting it at 8. 2-6 could switch any number of times and are practically interchangeable.

Ieyasu
01-10-2013, 07:22 PM
Am I the only one that really likes TGH? I thought it was a great book actually...especially during rereads.

Just because its my least favorite in the series doesn't mean its not signifigantly better imo than most other authors best work. There is a huge drop off between wot and any other series for me

EDIT: it may also be because I was reading one of the shannara books prior to my first read of tgh...and shannara books are almost all some kind of huge chase scenes lol

KyleLitke
01-10-2013, 07:24 PM
Am I the only one that really likes TGH? I thought it was a great book actually...especially during rereads.

I really liked it as well. I tentatively have it as #6 on my list, but most of the first 6 books are interchangeable for me at the top.

Tollingtoy
01-10-2013, 09:18 PM
1. TSR
-This is where I first realized the epic scope the series was taking
2. LOC
3. TEOTW
4. TGH
-when I do rereads this is still the quickest....so fast paced and energized
5. TDR
6. AMOL
-It's not perfect, but nothing you wait this long for could be, a very fitting end, I say
7. KOD
8. TGS
9. TFOH
-the first one that really dragged for me my first time through this took FOREVER to finish...that Valan Luca sequence is just awful
10. ACOS
11. WH
12. APOD
13. TOM
-this suffers a lot from the split with TGS, which I'm convinced was Harriet and TOR's decision more than Brandon's. They wanted the best parts in TGS to keep people's confidence in the series
14. COT
-The first book (besides New Spring) that I had to wait long for--I waited for WH in paperback--and I was VERY disappointed with how little the plot moved, although I can appreciate it more now

AbbeyRoad
01-10-2013, 10:37 PM
1. TDR
2. TGH
3. LoC
4. TSR
5. EotW
6. TFoH

I rate these 6 very close together, and they may oscillate in order, but always remain in my top 6. They are the most focused and concise of the books, have great thematic elements, and hints of the scope of vision required for the series, without what I consider too many tedious digressions. After book #6, I felt RJ began too many side-stories and POV's without enough focus on making each book have its own arc. The first 6 will always be my favorites in structure.

7. CoS
8. WH
9. KoD
10. PoD
11. TGS
12. AMoL
13. ToM
14. CoT

I preferred RJ's writing to Brandon's on the whole, with the exception of CoT. I did enjoy the end of AMoL, but it was too uneven and unpolished as a whole to warrant a comparison with most of RJ's earlier books. It was enjoyable, but I cringed entirely too many times for me to justify putting it higher.

kivo
01-10-2013, 11:22 PM
I like the Sanderson books a lot more than most people. I think of the quality in tiers rather than in a strict ranking system

Books I treasure:


The Eye of the World
The Great Hunt
The Dragon Reborn
The Shadow Rising
The Gathering Storm


Books I think are awesome:


The Fires Of Heaven
Lord of Chaos
A Crown of Swords
Winter's Heart
Knife of Dreams
Towers of Midnight


Books I thought were pretty good or entertaining enough:


Path of Daggers
New Spring


Books I don't even bother with on a re-read anymore because twice was enough:


Crossroads of Twilight


Books it is too soon to rank:


A Memory of Light

ultraness
01-11-2013, 11:55 AM
1. The Great Hunt: It's honestly my favorite in the series. I disagree it severely with your lack of love for it.
2. The Shadow Rising: This book has the best balance between the focused, self-contained narratives of the first three books, and the world-building depth of the later. My only problem is that I find Nynaeve and Elayne's plot to be incredibly dull until the very end (Nynaeve versus Moghedien is fantastic).

The rest I'm less sure about, and I could change my mind about them quickly upon rereading.

3. The Eye of the World
The Dragon Reborn: These two books are great as individual stories, which cannot be said for most novels in this series, and they have many classic moments. Also, I prefer the relatively few points of view that Jordan uses early on, as I really don't care much about Windfinder A or B, or Kinswoman A all that much.
4. Fires of Heaven: Great book, for the most part, and Mat, in particular, is great. This book does represent the moment when Jordan starts to drag out plots far too much, however, to the point in which my overall opinion of the book is affected heavily. Here, Nynaeve and Elayne's journey to the rebel faction of the Aes Sedai is particularly bad, if you ask me.
5. The Gathering Storm: I loved this book and think it's better than most of the books written by Jordan alone. It actually has a complete story arc. Rand and Egwene are both fantastic, and I actually worried about how things would turn out for the first time in forever.
6. Lord of Chaos: Has some great moments, has some dull moments, but the former still outnumbers the latter. Personally, I don't have the same amount of love for Dumai's Wells that others seem to possess (I prefer the endings in the first five endings more), but it is a landmark moment.
7. Crown of Swords
Towers of Midnight
Memory of Light: These three all have great moments but serious flaws. In CoS, Jordan has a number of great scenes...but also way too much fluff. The last two books, on the other hand, are more consistently good than any book written by Jordan after the Shadow Rising, but the best moments of those two books don't match what Jordan was capable of, in my opinion.
8. Winter's Heart
Knife of Dreams: Winter's Heart has a great ending and one of the most amazing scenes in the series, and I seriously enjoy Mat's subplot, but I dislike most of the rest of the book (aside from the too rare Rand chapter). Knife of Dreams is quite good (and, again, I especially loved Mat's subplot), but I wasn't really enthralled by it, overall.
9. Crossroads of Twilight: Yeah, this book isn't very good. I only like the Mat chapters. Yet there's one book in the series I actually like less than this one.
10. Path of Daggers: I hate this book and like absolutely no part in it.

suttree
01-11-2013, 12:44 PM
10. Path of Daggers: I hate this book and like absolutely no part in it.

?

How could you not like the Damona campaign and the Rand/LTT interactions? Or how about "A Cup of Sleep"? Those instances are flat out some of the best writing in the entire series.

Terez
01-11-2013, 12:53 PM
Rand losing his shit with Callandor was awesome too. Deadsy says she doesn't like it because it was so dark. She also said she didn't like HP5 for that reason.

Davian93
01-11-2013, 12:57 PM
Rand losing his shit with Callandor was awesome too. Deadsy says she doesn't like it because it was so dark. She also said she didn't like HP5 for that reason.

POD is underrated for the reasons mentioned...very solid book.

Even has good cover art...

jana
01-11-2013, 01:08 PM
Rand losing his shit with Callandor was awesome too. Deadsy says she doesn't like it because it was so dark. She also said she didn't like HP5 for that reason.

I'm not dumb enough to say I hated all of it though. I loved the Egwene stuff and Morgase ending up with Perrin. And Elayne/Nynaeve/Aviendha escaping from Ebou Dar. And IIRC there was an Alviarin chapter in there I like. Or an Elaida one with Alviarin.

Ieyasu
01-11-2013, 01:14 PM
What is hp5?

...sounds like some kind of sun tan lotion or oil...

Davian93
01-11-2013, 01:18 PM
What is hp5?

...sounds like some kind of sun tan lotion or oil...

I'm assuming she means Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix...

jana
01-11-2013, 01:23 PM
Ya. Damn that professor Umbridge.

Ieyasu
01-11-2013, 01:41 PM
eh I am not a fan of children books too often. Read the first few books and just couldnt keep with it...

Though I am reading Ender's Game to my 8 year old. He loves it! Not so sure I would consider Ender's Game a childrens book in the same way I do Harry Potter books...

EDIT: and I just got my nephews The Hungry Hungry Caterpillar and Goodnight Moon... they are 2 and 3, but gotta instill that love of reading early imo!

Tollingtoy
01-11-2013, 04:54 PM
POD is underrated for the reasons mentioned...very solid book.

Even has good cover art...


Without question, this is the best Sweet cover. It doesn't even look like he drew it!:)

Terez
01-11-2013, 05:11 PM
It does look like he drew it, but it's still good. The humans are small, though, and I think that helped.

Toss the dice
01-11-2013, 08:35 PM
I find it funny how different these rankings are compared to other rankings threads right after TGS and ToM.

With those other rankings threads, both times TGS and ToM consistently ranked very high on many of the lists, especially TGS (first Sanderson book, right!). Meanwhile, both TGS and ToM were pretty much dead last (or very close along with PoD) on my lists even though everyone else seemed to disagree. I even brought it up, guessing that people were in denial and wanted to pretend that Sanderson's books were better than they actually were. That didn't go over well.

Oh, how time and familiarity changes things.

(Keep in mind, while I thought TGS and ToM were lacking in certain things, I am both glad they were written and thankful for the developmental pace as well.)

The Angry Druid
01-12-2013, 03:35 PM
One final time into the breach on this one. Though a aMoL re-read may be in order before it finds its true place.

I also prefer a tiered approach, but I'll also rank them numerically.

Awesome
1. The Shadow Rising. Unquestioned #1 for me.
2. The Great Hunt. Loved this book.
3. Eye of the World. I still treasure it.
4. Lord of Chaos.

Excellent/Very Good
5. The Fires of Heaven.
6. The Dragon Reborn
7. Knife of Dreams
8. The Gathering Storm

Good/Enjoyable
9. The Path of Daggers
10. New Spring
11. A Crown of Swords
12. Winter's Heart


Meh/Ugh
13. A Memory of Light
14. Towers of Midnight
15. Crossroads of Twilight

jana
01-12-2013, 11:37 PM
Oh, how time and familiarity changes things.

(Keep in mind, while I thought TGS and ToM were lacking in certain things, I am both glad they were written and thankful for the developmental pace as well.)

One thing to keep in mind is the re-readability. I find it really difficult to re-read TGS and TOM (and now probably AMOL) so that moves them down the list. TSR I could probably read 50 more times before I die.

Davian93
01-12-2013, 11:40 PM
One thing to keep in mind is the re-readability. I find it really difficult to re-read TGS and TOM (and now probably AMOL) so that moves them down the list. TSR I could probably read 50 more times before I die.

For me, rereads turn into a slog after Path of Daggers.

I just dont care enough about the WT plot and all that secondary stuff to want to keep reliving it.

Also, WH, CoT, KoD are honestly very dark books and even most of TGS...tough to reread.

Toss the dice
01-13-2013, 02:51 PM
One thing to keep in mind is the re-readability. I find it really difficult to re-read TGS and TOM (and now probably AMOL) so that moves them down the list. TSR I could probably read 50 more times before I die.

This has actually been a factor for me since TGS came out. I found that I simply didn't have any need nor want to re-read TGS, and that applied to the majority of ToM as well. One exception offhand being the Tower of Ghenjei stuff.

Meanwhile, I find no mental barriers whatsoever to re-reading any of the other books, even my least favorite RJ title of PoD. I hate to say it, but it's the writing.

probe907
01-13-2013, 06:19 PM
I'd rather rank what I perceive as the acts of the series:
1) Act II, books 4-5-6: The scene had been set, the rules had been explained, the characters were still short of being superheroes, the politics were still interesting, there was plenty left to find out, the Forsaken were still mysterious, the pacing was great - it was awesome. I like books 5 and 6 better than book 4.
2) Act I, books 1-2-3: The opening. Read too much like a LotR-ripoff/ generic Shannara-type fantasy at times, but by book 3 you could feel there was much more to the WoT... I liked book 3 the best.
3) Act III, books 7-8-9: The pacing noticeably slowed, even though the books became shorter (Jordan was tired :( ). The plotlines began to drag. But we still saw interesting events, such as the battle with Sammael, the fight against the Gholam, the use of the Bowl of Winds, Rand's campaign vs the Seanchan. But what really saved the Act was the climax at Shadar Logoth. I have no favorite book of the three, just favorite episodes.
4) Act V, the final act, Sanderson's books - 12-13-14: Plenty of action, the resolution of major prophecies, the conclusion of the series. Some major problems dragged down this act: 1) After all the foreshadowing, and due to the lack of space, many events felt anti-climactic, such as the rescue of Moiraine; 2) No matter how good or bad Sanderson is, the WoT isn't HIS series, and that tells; and 3) Pacing was often off. There were too many prophecies to fulfill, and so, partly due to BS's writing style, the books often felt like errand-lists. Book 12 was the best of the batch.
5) Act IV: books 10-11. I don't even remember what happened in those books, because, I suppose, nothing happened. That's the "falling action" act in classical dramatic structure, and from what I remember, it's sometimes omitted on the stage. It sure could have been omitted in the WoT... Book 11 wasn't as bad as book 10.

As most of us know, the WoT could have been condensed in about 10-12 books and would have been better for it. But given RJ's health, I'm glad the series was finished at all, and in a reasonably satisfying manner. May Robert Jordan rest in peace, and the best of luck to Brandon Sanderson.

( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dramatic_structure )

Davian93
01-13-2013, 06:39 PM
Shannara? Lets not say things we cant take back.

I mean, that's just harsh.

connabard
01-13-2013, 06:43 PM
For me, rereads turn into a slog after Path of Daggers.

I just dont care enough about the WT plot and all that secondary stuff to want to keep reliving it.

Also, WH, CoT, KoD are honestly very dark books and even most of TGS...tough to reread.

On the same page. I love WH for the Cleansing, but otherwise...
It's draining and I don't find it to be exciting in the way of tDR and tSR, etc.

probe907
01-13-2013, 07:16 PM
Shannara? Lets not say things we cant take back.

I mean, that's just harsh.
Hah, well - Alannon/Moiraine/Gandalf comes into the Vale/Two Rivers/Shire and rescues the Ohmsfords/Ta'veren/Hobbits from the "Skull Bearers"/Trollocs-shades/Nazgūl. Then they go to Leah/Caemlyn/Bree-Rivendell, meeting various wacky characters on the way, among them the amazing swordsmen Panamon Creel/ Aragorn/ Lan. At some point they end up at Paranor/Shadar Logoth/Moria, and face great evil etc. The protagonists Shea/Rand/Frodo have to come to terms with their magical abilities and messianic obligations. The ultimate goal, of course, is to recover the mystical Sword of Shannara/(Aragorn's sword?)/Callandor, and face the evil horrible Warlock/Dark One/Sauron. Alannon/ Moiraine/ Gandalf sacrifice themselves to get the other characters out of trouble, but are revived later, because they are too badass. In order to confront the Big Boss, our brave heroes must unite the Four Lands/ Randland/ Middle Earth. They face hordes of subhuman Trolls/ Trollorcs/ Orcs. In the end, the protagonists enter the Skull Mountain/ Shayol Ghul/ Mount Doom, and defeat the Big Bad Boss in a psychological battle, miraculously surviving to live happily ever after.
Etc, etc.

Fortunately for us, Jordan tried to break out of the LotR bind, threw in some historical romance into his work, hit the jackpot, and the rest is history.

Goodkind's ripoff of the WoT and Rand's spiel was far more egregious than Brooks's ripoff of LotR. Then we have George RR Martin, who opted for 90% historical fiction and 10% high fantasy, only to write himself into the same bog Jordan inhabited for about 10 years. Heh...

Davian93
01-13-2013, 07:18 PM
http://wtfoodge.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/avatar-pocahontas-500x486.jpg

This suddenly came to mind for some reason.

probe907
01-13-2013, 07:38 PM
http://wtfoodge.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/avatar-pocahontas-500x486.jpg

This suddenly came to mind for some reason.

;)

Maybe the most popular Southpark episode ever is the one in which Cartman makes this creep eat his own parents... When I first saw that episode I laughed but I felt uncomfortable and thought it was a bit too much. Some time later I tried to read Shakespeare's collected works. The "Rape of Lucretia" read suspiciously like porno, but I read on. Some of the historical plays read a bit like WoT politicking. Imagine my surprise, however, when I got to some play based in Rome, in which some characters got to eat their own parents, or children, or something. To this day I do not know if the Southpark duo had read that play. Nor do I know if Shakespeare borrowed from some classic Greco-Roman story, as he often did. Somehow I didn't particularly want to find out.

Linda's blog contains millions such parallels and borrowings, it's amazing. I notice that some other people here, like Dom and Terez, have also done extensive research on WoT influences. Good stuff, much respect to you Theorylanders. You have great ji!

Davian93
01-13-2013, 07:44 PM
Scott Tenorman Must Die...best episode they have ever done BTW.

Seth Baker
01-14-2013, 12:21 AM
Mine seems different from many.


The Shadow Rising
The Eye of the World
The Great Hunt
The Fires of Heaven
The Dragon Reborn
Lord of Chaos
Towers of Midnight
A Memory of Light
The Gathering Storm
Knife of Dreams
A Crown of Swords
The Path of Daggers
New Spring
Winter's Heart
Crossroads of Twilight

Southpaw2012
01-29-2013, 01:02 AM
My list changes all the time but for now...

1. TSR
2. TFOH
3. TDR
4. LOC
5. TGH
6. COS
7. WH
8. AMoL
9. KoD
10. TEoTW
11. TPOD
12. TGS
13. TOM
14. NS
15. COT

Sid
01-29-2013, 03:45 AM
My list. I doubt I'll ever be able to re-read the last three for 'enjoyment' like the ones preceding them in the rankings.

1 TSR
2 TFoH
3 LoC
4 TGH
5 TEotW
6 KoD
7 TDR
8 ACoS
9 WH
10TPoD
11NS
12CoT
13TGS
14AMoL
15ToM

Now that I think about it, there are so many scenes I absolutely love in ACoS, it's hard to believe it comes only in 8th. But I'm not changing it.

I always thought TGS was crap, but immediately after ToM came out I remember posting a list on DM where I ranked it 5th. Then I tried re-reading it and the bubbles of evil came up to the surface and burst apart in a pretty horrific fashion.

Terez
01-29-2013, 04:16 AM
Yeah, I think we were all in a forced denial until after TOM. That's when it really started to sink in that it wasn't going to get any better, and that's when the continuity-destroying problems became impossible to ignore. After the new book catharsis wore off, anyway.

Daekyras
01-29-2013, 04:49 AM
Hmmm. This might be too soon for the later books but here goes:

Best of the Best:

1. tFoH- unquestionably the high point of the series. How no-one else has listed this as numero uno confuses me no end. Killer endings(no pun intended).

2. tGH- This is so, so good. I HATED it the first time I read it. Genuinely Hated it. Now, It just rushes along with only 1 section involving a deserted villageO(God I hate those WoT sequences) dragging.

3. tSR-Excellent. Great arcs for all the main protagonists. Loved it.

Best of the rest:

4. tDR- mat gets a Masters in Bad Assery. More Focus on the "minor" Characters.

5. tEotW- I know, it's got some flaws but....Come on, as an entry to the series it's pretty good.

6. LoC- Dumai's Wells is the single most OVER-RATED scene in WoT. Other than that, Book is very good and first beginnings of a deeper , more political story...

The Good:
7. aCoS- This is a very entertaining book containing a very good "nasty" in the gholam.

8. WH- Can drag in points but the very, very strong ending makes it worthwhie.

9. tPoD- Would be higher on the list if not for the lack of a favourite character.

10. KoD- I'm still not sure if this is worthy of it's place here but after...the ...thing that comes before it is a relief!

11. aMoL- Will be higher in the future. Laaaaaaannnnn!!!!

The Bad-

12. ToM- Again, this is hard to put in place. Very good in parts.

13. tGS- If not for the next entry in this list it would be my least favourite. It just doesn't gel with me and "Elaborate backstories" nearly made me scream.

The Ugly:

CoT- sorry Dom but i hate this book.

Looking at the list it appears that I dislike BS's work but tbh I think he did a good job. It's just that the work that comes before is effectively peerless.

Davian93
01-29-2013, 05:52 AM
Yeah, I think we were all in a forced denial until after TOM. That's when it really started to sink in that it wasn't going to get any better, and that's when the continuity-destroying problems became impossible to ignore. After the new book catharsis wore off, anyway.

~nodding~

Yup.

yks 6nnetu hing
01-29-2013, 08:57 AM
Yeah, I think we were all in a forced denial until after TOM. That's when it really started to sink in that it wasn't going to get any better, and that's when the continuity-destroying problems became impossible to ignore. After the new book catharsis wore off, anyway.

~nodding~

Yup.

There IS a literary critique thread, you know.

Davian93
01-29-2013, 09:39 AM
There IS a literary critique thread, you know.

Well, this is a thread on rating the books in order so it is on topic...

Mort
01-29-2013, 09:50 AM
I am sure tSR or LoC is one of my favorites, I think. But to grade them all? Not sure I can do that. I'd probably have to re-read them all first. Not gonna do that :)

Ishara
01-29-2013, 11:03 AM
Well, this is a thread on rating the books in order so it is on topic...

The rating is, sure. The Brandon-bashing, not so much.

GonzoTheGreat
01-29-2013, 11:30 AM
The rating is, sure. The Brandon-bashing, not so much.
Doesn't that count as berating? :confused:

fdsaf3
01-29-2013, 01:05 PM
Hah, well - Alannon/Moiraine/Gandalf comes into the Vale/Two Rivers/Shire and rescues the Ohmsfords/Ta'veren/Hobbits from the "Skull Bearers"/Trollocs-shades/Nazgūl. Then they go to Leah/Caemlyn/Bree-Rivendell, meeting various wacky characters on the way, among them the amazing swordsmen Panamon Creel/ Aragorn/ Lan. At some point they end up at Paranor/Shadar Logoth/Moria, and face great evil etc. The protagonists Shea/Rand/Frodo have to come to terms with their magical abilities and messianic obligations. The ultimate goal, of course, is to recover the mystical Sword of Shannara/(Aragorn's sword?)/Callandor, and face the evil horrible Warlock/Dark One/Sauron. Alannon/ Moiraine/ Gandalf sacrifice themselves to get the other characters out of trouble, but are revived later, because they are too badass. In order to confront the Big Boss, our brave heroes must unite the Four Lands/ Randland/ Middle Earth. They face hordes of subhuman Trolls/ Trollorcs/ Orcs. In the end, the protagonists enter the Skull Mountain/ Shayol Ghul/ Mount Doom, and defeat the Big Bad Boss in a psychological battle, miraculously surviving to live happily ever after.
Etc, etc.

When you oversimplify to this degree, yeah, you're going to notice patterns in fantasy literature. They're tropes for a reason - oftentimes the easiest way to tell a story (and the easiest for readers to get invested) is for the hero to go on an epic journey. If your argument is that there's no real difference between those series because they contain similar plot elements, I think you're missing the forrest through the trees.

For me, what matters isn't the underlying plot or archetype, it's how well the author tailors her world to the story she wants to tell. The devil, and 90% of the success of a series like Wheel of Time, is in the details.

Besides, the first chunk of Eye of the World is supposed to read like the hobbits leaving the Shire. From there, I personally see the stories between Wheel of Time and Lord of the Rings diverging pretty quickly.

OK, moving on.

Here's my rushed ranking. I'm doing it by category because I haven't thought about it well enough to pick between all the books to decide on a favorite (although it's probably Eye of the World or TDR).

1. The best, tip top, books I will read (and continue to read) over and over and over:

Eye of the World, Dragon Reborn, Lord of Chaos, Fires of Heaven, A Memory of Light (maybe)

2. Pretty good. Will reread often enough so that I can pick it up and instantly know where I am in the story.

Great Hunt, Crown of Swords, Path of Daggers, Towers of Midnight, Shadow Rising

3. Meh. Don't mind reading, but no strong urge to pick up again.

Gathering Storm

4. Yuck. Reading this was a chore, but I did it and I probably won't do it again unless it's to check something.

Knife of Dreams, Winter's Heart

5. Reading this book nearly killed me. I will never look at it again, let alone read it.

Crossroads of Twilight

Unassigned because I never read it:

New Spring

suttree
01-29-2013, 01:23 PM
The rating is, sure. The Brandon-bashing, not so much.

We are rating the quality of the books and that is an honest assessment around where those books sit and why. Not sure how that could be considered off topic.

Ishara
01-29-2013, 07:18 PM
We are rating the quality of the books and that is an honest assessment around where those books sit and why. Not sure how that could be considered off topic.

Certainly, a biased assessment (which these all are), is justified when ranking the books. I was attempting to forestall a scenario where the ranking discussed slowly evolved into something else.

Fourth Age Historian
01-29-2013, 09:54 PM
I am surprised to see so many people have my two personal favorites (TSR and LOC) rated so highly as well. I always thought I was weird for liking those two so much. Hard to pick betweent he two, and my answer changes every time I read through I think.

Frankly though, the first six were ALL fantastic reads. Eh, the first seven I guess. I probably liked TGH the least of those.

OK, let me take a stab at it...

1. TSR
2. LOC
3. TDR
4. TFOH
5. EOTW
6. ACOS
7. TGH
8. AMOL
9. TGS
10. TPOD
11. KOD
12. TOM
13. WH
14. COT

I wasn't the biggest fan of WH; the Cleansing itself was cool but much of the rest of it was as close to unreadable as RJ ever got. The Cleansing is the only reason I don't rate it below Crossroads.

For all of Sando's foibles and the characters he couldn't quite get, I think his three were collectively more entertaining reads than Jordan's books after ACoS. That isn't to elevate him over Jordan, just that Sanderson at his best was more fun for me to read than Jordan at his worst.

rand
01-29-2013, 11:59 PM
My order (which changes pretty much every time I reread):

1) LoC
2) tSR
3) tPoD
4) tGH
5) WH
6) tEotW
7) aMoL
8) tFoH
9) tDR
10) aCoS
11) tGS
12) ToM
13) KoD
14) CoT

I seems like I ranked WH higher than most, and probably tPoD too. I really like the Far Madding scenes, though, and almost all of TPoD (except the beginning/Bowl stuff) is great.

Terez
01-30-2013, 01:56 AM
I am surprised to see so many people have my two personal favorites (TSR and LOC) rated so highly as well. I always thought I was weird for liking those two so much.
Those two are consistently the most popular books in the fandom.

Fourth Age Historian
01-30-2013, 07:27 PM
Those two are consistently the most popular books in the fandom.

I'm not sure why I didn't know that. Maybe delusions of hipster? Only not really because I kind of like mainstream...

Daekyras
01-31-2013, 06:32 AM
Certainly, a biased assessment (which these all are)

Mine is completely unbiased...;)

Terez
01-31-2013, 06:46 AM
I think I can rate RJ's and Brandon's books separately. First Brandon's:

AMOL
TGS
TOM

Then RJ's:

TSR
LOC
TEOTW
TFOH
TDR
ACOS
TPOD
TGH
KOD
WH
NS
COT

The rating of the RJ books is an approximation really, but that's the general drift of it. I liked COT. I just recognize that, as a standalone among the other books of the series, it's at the bottom of the list. I loved NS and the love keeps getting stronger as you go up the list.

I think TFOH doesn't make the top of a lot of people's lists because of the girls' plotline, with Luca in particular. There was a lot of bitchiness in that book. I love it, though; Nynaeve just keeps getting madder and madder until Birgitte gets ripped out; it's a study in contrasts. And then she starts getting mad again...and then she has to deal with Neres, who makes her pretend to be nice just to show him that women aren't as bitchy as he thinks they are. And then Sheriam et al. make her mad all over again, and then she has to pretend to beg Moghedien for mercy. And then she whips Rahvin's ass. It's a great arc, if you read it in the right frame of mind, but I can see why some people don't like it. The ending of TFOH is epic, but the beginning drags for a lot of people.

Davian93
01-31-2013, 07:50 AM
When I really think about it, I like the first 6 books equally. All of them are just awesome.

Daekyras
01-31-2013, 11:09 AM
I think TFOH doesn't make the top of a lot of people's lists because of the girls' plotline, with Luca in particular. There was a lot of bitchiness in that book. I love it, though; Nynaeve just keeps getting madder and madder until Birgitte gets ripped out; it's a study in contrasts. And then she starts getting mad again...and then she has to deal with Neres, who makes her pretend to be nice just to show him that women aren't as bitchy as he thinks they are. And then Sheriam et al. make her mad all over again, and then she has to pretend to beg Moghedien for mercy. And then she whips Rahvin's ass. It's a great arc, if you read it in the right frame of mind, but I can see why some people don't like it. The ending of TFOH is epic, but the beginning drags for a lot of people.

Plus about 50 other awesome things happen in this book. I LOVE IT!

David Selig
01-31-2013, 11:27 AM
I think TFOH doesn't make the top of a lot of people's lists because of the girls' plotline, with Luca in particular. There was a lot of bitchiness in that book. I love it, though; Nynaeve just keeps getting madder and madder until Birgitte gets ripped out; it's a study in contrasts. And then she starts getting mad again...and then she has to deal with Neres, who makes her pretend to be nice just to show him that women aren't as bitchy as he thinks they are. And then Sheriam et al. make her mad all over again, and then she has to pretend to beg Moghedien for mercy. And then she whips Rahvin's ass. It's a great arc, if you read it in the right frame of mind, but I can see why some people don't like it. The ending of TFOH is epic, but the beginning drags for a lot of people.
I love this plotline too. Not only it's good for the reasons you listed, it's also often hilarious. Nynaeve's just so funny throughout this book. Valan Luca's marriage proposal to her kills me every time. It's probably the single book plot arc I've reread most often.

Dom
01-31-2013, 11:32 AM
I think TFOH doesn't make the top of a lot of people's lists because of the girls' plotline, with Luca in particular.

That's it exactly for me. I actually love the girls's story line, it's funny/great. Tanchico, Moghedien, Birgitte, the Nynaeve-Elayne humor is awesome in this book. Rand, Mat, Moiraine-Lanfear.. it's a really great book overall.

But Valan Luca? Yuk. He was funny for about five minutes, after which the whole circus thing got irritating (especially the acts of Nynaeve, Elayne etc. I always found the whole "AS and HoH become circus freaks" thing too silly, even though that sort of launched the whole LOC theme and was very fitting... but it was silly, really silly. My moan when they returned in Ebou Dar was something to behold.)

I was never a big fan of Egeanin either. I'm not sure why. She always bored or irritated me. I see her too much from the perspective of Nynaeve and Mat, I guess.

Terez
01-31-2013, 11:38 AM
Yeah, I think the return of Luca's menagerie was probably one of the more notable examples of RJ trolling his fans.

Dom
01-31-2013, 12:27 PM
Yeah, I think the return of Luca's menagerie was probably one of the more notable examples of RJ trolling his fans.

:D And considering the reception of COT, that bit him in the ass big time.

I say this, though personally I didn't mind Luca and Egeanin returning so much in COT, after being right annoyed they did. Selucia/Tuon, Mat, Setalle, the ever annoying Joline saved that story line.

One reason I dread a bit the outriggers was the implication Valan Luca could go to Seanchan.

Also, as you know, I moaned again when we saw Petra. I was really worried Brandon would Mat bump into Luca's show again in AMOL. The possibility of a Brandon-written Luca was rather horrifying! Brandon's Mat with a Luca written by Brandon... that looked Hinderstap nightmarish and worse!

Weiramon
01-31-2013, 01:58 PM
Plus about 50 other awesome things happen in this book. I LOVE IT!

Aye, the grand tale only truly began when the Lord Dragon was surveying the field of battle at Cairhien, perched atop that ridiculous tower.

Ishara
02-04-2013, 12:36 PM
I think TFOH doesn't make the top of a lot of people's lists because of the girls' plotline, with Luca in particular. There was a lot of bitchiness in that book. I love it, though; Nynaeve just keeps getting madder and madder until Birgitte gets ripped out; it's a study in contrasts. And then she starts getting mad again...and then she has to deal with Neres, who makes her pretend to be nice just to show him that women aren't as bitchy as he thinks they are. And then Sheriam et al. make her mad all over again, and then she has to pretend to beg Moghedien for mercy. And then she whips Rahvin's ass. It's a great arc, if you read it in the right frame of mind, but I can see why some people don't like it. The ending of TFOH is epic, but the beginning drags for a lot of people.
tFoH is one of faves, actually, because I loved the early storylines of the girls. Stretching their wings and learning things about the world in ways they never could have expected...LOL. Plus, the epic death of Moiraine. My pages are actually rough in the section where Rand reads Moiraine's letter from crying the first few times I read it, oh so long ago. LOL