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View Full Version : RJ's Flaws Exposed by AMOL (spoliers)


Tollingtoy
01-10-2013, 08:28 PM
Some of the things I was struck most by in AMOL was the needlessness of many of the plot threads of the later books. I always assumed that they'd play out in the last book, but many didn't seem to make much sense once things were all said and done.

1. The Sea Folk
-Honestly, they had zero role in the final book--any number of channelers could have kept the storm at bay and the way the Bargain thread went on and on was very discouraging

2. The Bowl of the Winds
-A terribly draggy plot thread that also didn't seem to have much purpose except getting Mat to Ebou Dar to meet Noal and Tuon

3. The Kin
- There was a lot of time wasted talking about them, and they also didn't seem to have any distinct purpose or role in the Last Battle that any other group of channelers couldn't have filled

4. Padan Fain
- Truthfully, what purpose did he serve? If you deleted him from the last book entirely it wouldn't have made a single difference. What was the point?

5. Alanna's Bonding
- It was never really adequately explained why she did this and it also didn't really have much of an affect on anything.


Everyone is very quick to blame Brandon for many of the faults with the last books, but quite a bit of time was wasted in the mid to late books with these plot lines. I willingly trudged through them because I assumed there would be a payoff in the end, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Do you think that if RJ had been able to write the last book these things would have been tied up a bit more neatly? If the Sharans were going to play such a major role, why not take the time to develop them more than these ideas that really went nowhere?

Tollingtoy
01-10-2013, 08:30 PM
I would also add the ponderous Shaido plot thread to this list. Especially with the Aiel channelers in the Blight, it seems silly to spend so much time on a group that simply packs up and leaves once Perrin beats them in battle

jana
01-10-2013, 08:42 PM
None of the things you've listed took up much space except Bowl of the Winds. I enjoyed CoS, so I can't agree about the Bowl being pointless. I loved Nynaeve, Elayne, and Mat's time in Ebou Dar.

And are you seriously complaining about Fain? Even if you don't like how it ended, he served plenty of purpose in the story and was very entertaining on several occasions.

Then there's Alanna. Her bonding of Rand had a big effect on his psyche, and it was also one of the most memorable moments of the series for me. I felt like I'd been slapped.



I do agree with the Shaido. I think they could have all died at the end of LoC. But there needed to be something for Perrin to do.

Dom
01-10-2013, 08:45 PM
A matter of tastes, of course.

I actually like a lot that not everything fit neatly into place, that RJ's world was much larger than just the LB, with areas left unexplored.

Honestly, they had zero role in the final book-

They had a role. Brandon made them totally boring by telling us instead of showing us. Having them hold off the storm was boring to tears, unless you do it RJ's way and throw us there with one of them via a POV, show us the effort, their difficulty at holding it off, show us the Sword Masters/Winfinders fighting the Shadowspawn to keep the circle safe etc., have the Windfinder POV tell us how much worse things would be without their effort (the storm in TAR level of "worse"). A few short scenes with them would have done the job.

All is in the execution.

Brandon also dropped a few balls... what happens with Harine's question for Rand, set up in TGS?

2. The Bowl of the Winds
-A terribly draggy plot thread that also didn't seem to have much purpose except getting Mat to Ebou Dar to meet Noal and Tuon

The great "Air and Water" female feat balancing the Cleansing, and another balance: the SF gained the Bowl and lost the Amayar.

Not my favorite arc, but it was OK.

3. The Kin
- There was a lot of time wasted talking about them,

Also simply mishandled, IMO. The fact Elayne secured a direct deal for the service of channelers for her nation was no doubt to impact more than it did on the WT losing its position as the arbiter above the nations to the Aiel, and the AS returning more to a life of service.. Elayne was a precursor. Just as Egwene sought to increase the WT's leadership/hegemony on female channelers, Elayne and Nyaneve undermined her plans first by the Bargain, then Elayne broke the Tower hegemony by openly linking a group of channelers to her nation (a first since the Breaking, presumably). That also destroyed Egwene's solution to have AS retire in the Kin without oaths - another solution to avoid cutting their lifespans in two would have to be found. I'm not 100% satisfied with the way Brandon merely alluded to this by hints and small touches.

4. Padan Fain
- Truthfully, what purpose did he serve? If you deleted him from the last book entirely it wouldn't have made a single difference. What was the point?

No complaint about the SL arc. I loved that, and also what Brandon did with it.


5. Alanna's Bonding
- It was never really adequately explained why she did this and it also didn't really have much of an affect on anything.

I don't like how Brandon concluded it leaving so much open and so many questions unanswered, but I liked Alanna's arc well enough in earlier books. She was a good distraction from Verin, made a good mirror to the Asha'man bonding sisters against their will, and altogether I liked her interaction with Rand. She added depth, variety. It would have been too centered on figures like Egwene, Elaida, Cadsuane otherwise. Verin, Alanna, the inner circle and the sworn AS and co. added more variations of AS entanglements, made them more than something RJ just told us AS did. They made it real.

Eclipse
01-10-2013, 09:02 PM
thought the same thing about Fain. but someone mentioned he was the perfect red herring. sure, if you were looking for filler. but with 800-900 page books, and 14 of them, i think there's plenty of material.

i was constantly chuckling at how overworked BS must have been trying to find SOMEWHERE to put in all the extraneous characters that didn't matter but took up gobs of time and space (but only got flashes in this book). every time one popped up for a second, it was like checking off the list. Morgase... check. Alviarin... check. Mellar... check. better do something with Shadar Haran... check. Juilin... check. i wonder if that was BS just wasting time giving nods and winks, or if he actually felt obligated to use each and every character Jordan bloated the series with. Petra?! really?

this is kind of an inverted RAFO. seeming uselessness that a lot of us would rather have done without (and can imagine the series without), as opposed to hints and allegations that everyone is biting their nails over that NEVER come to fruition.

Tamyrin, i did notice something that might have made you smile. the note that golem can Travel. nice clean up there for Herid.

DeiwosTheSkyGod
01-10-2013, 09:28 PM
I'd add Moiraine to this list. Like others have said in other threads, she didn't really need to come back. Her position at Shayol Ghul could easily have been filled by someone else.

KyleLitke
01-10-2013, 09:35 PM
I'd add Moiraine to this list. Like others have said in other threads, she didn't really need to come back. Her position at Shayol Ghul could easily have been filled by someone else.

Yes, but she was also the one that stopped Rand from walking out of the meeting where everyone ended up signing the treaty.

DeiwosTheSkyGod
01-10-2013, 09:42 PM
That could have been done differently too. Ta'veren, whatever. It was a nice touch to mirror that scene from EotW, but it wasn't necessary. I don't feel like she did anything momentous enough to warrant the buildup and rescue.

EvilChani
01-10-2013, 09:58 PM
Yes, but she was also the one that stopped Rand from walking out of the meeting where everyone ended up signing the treaty.

That could have been done differently too. Ta'veren, whatever. It was a nice touch to mirror that scene from EotW, but it wasn't necessary. I don't feel like she did anything momentous enough to warrant the buildup and rescue.

I think it was poorly written, especially given Rand's thoughts that people would find it very hard to resist him (implying the ta'veren thing, but possibly more of him exerting his will a bit on the Pattern). It would have made more sense if almost everyone had agree to it, save Egwene (who is always contrary with Rand). She goes off about it, Cadsuane jumps in and tells her to stop being difficult and that she can't have control of everything, then Moiraine walks in and soothes things over with Egwene (talking Rand into making a concession so it isn't one-sided with Egwene giving in on everything). Egwene would listen to her, to an extent (as proven by the blush when Mo reminds her about the unstained tower bending knee) but she wouldn't listen to Cadsuane at all. The only one who had a chance in hell of making Egwene compromise with Rand is Moiraine, so that part made sense. It was just not written very well.

jana
01-10-2013, 10:06 PM
I agree that Moiraine's return seemed pointless because of the writing.

Landro
01-11-2013, 12:49 AM
2. The Bowl of the Winds
-A terribly draggy plot thread that also didn't seem to have much purpose except getting Mat to Ebou Dar to meet Noal and Tuon


This threat also placed several Angreal and the shadow warding dagger into the hands of the light side. And also the set of defensive Ter'angreal Alivia used at the Cleansing to fight off Lanfear

Heiko
01-11-2013, 01:06 AM
4. Padan Fain
- Truthfully, what purpose did he serve? If you deleted him from the last book entirely it wouldn't have made a single difference. What was the point?


Really this was just keeping with a theme. The villains were supposed to be disappointing, Fain included. Even the DO, in the end, was described as pitiful. WoT wasn't about an epic struggle between good and evil, ultimately, but rather individuals and how they dealt with the burdens of power and duty. The bad guys foreswore duty in pursuit of power/their personal goals (Moridin, for example, wasn't seeking what one would typically describe as power), making them predictable and weak, in a sense. Their inability to sacrifice everything (best exemplified by Lan and Demandred's battle) meant that they could never truly keep the good guys down.

Tollingtoy
01-11-2013, 04:46 AM
I'm not suggesting that they should have never been in the books, I was just saying that their emphasis in the middle books indicated that they would have a bigger role than they actually did

Personally, I think the Bowl of the Winds thread could have been resolved in ACOS, but they didn't use it until APOD. When they did, winter came and then when winter ended the Dark One was affecting the land and nothing grew anyway.

I am definitely not saying PF shouldn't have been in the books, he was great until WH. But, if he had died in that book it would not have affected the rest in any substantial way.

I understand that these all had thematic purpose, but they did not have to have to tremendous focus that they did if they weren't ultimately going to affect the outcome of the LB. I'd also include Moiraine on this list

My question was, do you think that RJ designed it to be this way, or would he have found a way to tie these loose threads together in a more complete way?

Terez
01-11-2013, 05:21 AM
I do agree that RJ's flaws were exposed in this book, but I wouldn't count the things you listed toward that. As others said, it's arguable that delivery was the issue for a lot of those things, it's clear from certain footprints that RJ was always enhancing and expanding the plot. He created a lot of tools that he could use later, but didn't often figure out what to do with them until he used them. He was good at it, but he died and had to dump his half-formed plots in Brandon's lap.

It's also clear that around LOC he felt the need to plant a bunch of red herrings to detract away from the fact that he'd pretty much laid out the ending in the first three books, particularly in the first six. That's when he created a lot of side plots (while working on the forging of his main characters into what they needed to be for the end) but I don't doubt he would have come through on several of them (if not all of them) in a way that Brandon simply wasn't able to do (for various reasons).

Were the mid-late books a bit meandering? A bit, yes, but I think not as much as people generally claim. The problem was that the books were getting shorter in addition to covering less ground. Partly that was because his health started getting bad while he was working on LOC, and he cut down his writing schedule significantly after LOC was done. That was the end of his initial six-book contract, and he said it nearly killed him.

As for Fain...I very much disagree that the story wouldn't be lacking without his last scene. I think readers just expected the wrong things from him. He served the purpose of conflict for Rand (and Perrin and others) throughout the books, but we didn't have any prophecies about him and therefore didn't have any real reason to expect anything from him as far as playing a role in the sealing of the Bore. The reason readers were tempted along that path was because of the Cleansing, but just because the evil of Shadar Logoth played an important role there doesn't mean that it had to do so again. In fact, many readers argued that it would have been a boring repeat of the Cleansing were Fain to play a role at the Bore.

Fain's involvement in the end was not about his importance. It was about Mat's importance, and vengeance for Manetheren. Mat represented Manetheren more profoundly than anyone else in the series, even Perrin who raised its flag and Egwene who followed in Eldrene's footsteps. Mat had memories from Manetheren before he ever met the Finns, and due to the location of Ghenjei he got a lot more when he went there. They basically enhanced the advantages Mat already possessed when he visited them, and their appearance at the Last Battle makes their motivations clear. And since Mordeth also visited them, perhaps they sought to eliminate his evil, too. Mat was already immune to the evil of Shadar Logoth when he visited them, and that was foreshadowed in TGH, before Mat even had the full Healing.

"It can still be broken," Verin agreed. She was a plump, square-faced woman, and even with the Aes Sedai gift of agelessness, there was a touch of gray in her brown hair. That was her only sign of age, but for an Aes Sedai it meant she was very old indeed. Her voice held steady, though, matching her smooth cheeks. "He has been linked to the dagger a long time, however, as a thing like that must be reckoned. And he will be linked longer yet, whether it is found or not. He may already be changed beyond the reach of full Healing, even if no longer enough to contaminate others. Such a small thing, that dagger," she mused, "but it will corrupt whoever carries it long enough. He who carries it will in turn corrupt those who come in contact with him, and they will corrupt still others, and the hatred and suspicion that destroyed Shadar Logoth, every man and woman's hand turned against every other, will be loose in the world again. I wonder how many people it can taint in, say, a year. It should be possible to calculate a reasonable approximation."

Moiraine gave the Brown sister a wry look.Another danger confronts us, and she sounds as if it is a puzzle in a book. Light, the Browns truly are not aware of the world at all. "Then we must find the dagger, Sister. Agelmar is sending men to hunt those who took the Horn and slew his oathmen, the same who took the dagger. If one is found, the other will be."

Verin nodded, but frowned at the same time. "Yet, even if it is found, who can return it safely? Whoever touches it risks the taint if they handle it long. Perhaps in a chest, well wrapped and padded, but it would still be dangerous to those nearby for any great time. Without the dagger itself to study, we cannot be sure how much it must be shielded. But you saw it and more, Moiraine. You dealt with it, enough for that young man to survive carrying it and to stop him infecting others. You must have a good idea of how strong its influence is."

"There is one," Moiraine said, "who can retrieve the dagger without being harmed by it. One whom we have shielded and buffered against that taint as much as anyone can be. Mat Cauthon."

The Amyrlin nodded. "Yes, of course. He can do it. If he lives long enough. The Light only knows how far it will be carried before Agelmar's men find it. If they do find it. And if the boy dies first ... well, if the dagger is loose that long, we have another worry."
To think that she had worried so over Verin, struggled so hard. Verin had hardly touched her own plans really, except for guiding Demira into suggesting today's unfortunate confrontation. It had been done quite skillfully; Merana did not believe anyone but a Gray would have noticed. Yet she herself had agreed even with that. Facing al'Thor down—trying to face him down—was the least they could have done.

Enigma
01-11-2013, 06:44 AM
Not every plot point that was introduced during the series had to be key in the last books. The Kin and the Boul of Winds played an important poin earlier in the series. And the both played important and somewhat under developed roles during the last book.

The kin presumably were the ones keeping the supplies coming in through gateways. Yes the Aes Sedia or Asha'man could have done that but they were needed for the front lines. The kin were for the most part too week to fight on the front lines but they kept those strong enought to fight supplied.

They were probably also helping with the hospital and it might have been nicer if we had a comment from one of the characters along the lines of "Thank the light for the kin. Without them many Aes Sedai needed on the front lines to do battle would be forced away from the fighting to maintain the supply gateways to say nothing of the lives that were being saved back at the hospital".

There was a hint of what the area around SG would have been without the Windfinders but I agree one wonders were the rest of their people were and what were the other windfinders doing?

Terez
01-11-2013, 07:00 AM
The rest of the Windfinders were supplying the armies by gateway; that was mentioned several times. That was the main role of the Sea Folk in the bargain worked out with Rand.

Dom
01-11-2013, 07:48 AM
The rest of the Windfinders were supplying the armies by gateway; that was mentioned several times. That was the main role of the Sea Folk in the bargain worked out with Rand.

And the Kin until the "Battle of Chop and Arrays" mostly provided gateways and battlefield Healing to Elayne's soldiers and were frequently exhausted. Most of them are too weak and needed to work in circles. The way it's described, they were supplied from Merrilor under Faile's supervision and supported notably by Windfinders and some AS, the teams of Kinswomen Elayne had were all the channelers she had before Androl and co. arrived, and were much too needed to also make the supply runs. The relations between the WT and Elayne were strained at that point, in a Tetsuan/Eldrene way in a minor mode, Elayne overshadowed the Amyrlin and the WT leaders recuperated the loss of prestige by denying her her title of Queen and insisting to call her "Elayne Sedai", a move to claim back the prestige of the leadership of the war Egwene sought very badly (before Merrilor she thinks she won't give up on that even to get the seals from Rand) but was forced to relinquish. Brandon sort of underplayed the whole thing that RJ had long set up (the rivalry between Elayne and Egwene had taken form since the Bargain and was slowly on the rise, culminating for RJ in KOD with Elayne usurping the Amyrlin's prerogative of stripping the BA of their AS status - by removing their rings - and her deep thinking on the matter of the power the WT would wield in Andor because she was Aes Sedai and that she'd have to put her foot down with Egwene where her authority over her as Aes Sedai stopped and where her authority as Queen began - and under Brandon it lead her to seize the Kin for her own (which amounted to a claim to the retired AS who would join it, by Egwene's plans) and the WT's anger at the move, but he didn't do much with it in the way of exposition and explanations beside Egwene's heated letter to Elayne that those matters would have to be settled after the War, and a few mentions their friendship might not survive this (for RJ it was probably meant to be more emphasized a bit more as part of the developments showing the collapse of the hegemonic tendencies/political power of Tar Valon and the start of a return to a philosophy of service) . But it's implied through various scenes it's partly why the Kin served strictly Elayne and why there was only half-hearted collaboration between the WT, Lord Bryne and co. and the other armies under the High Commander of the Light.) Basically, it seems RJ meant their friendship, and Gawyn who was brother to one and husband to the other, were what that kept all this from turning exactly like Eldrene and Tetsuan, with the Amyrlin becoming so resentful of the Queen-AS's power she ended up abandoning her and bringing her destruction. Egwene and Elayne avoided that, but the whole thing was probably a bit underplayed compared to what Jordan, who focused more on conflicts like this, would have done with all this.

Further straining before a settlement probably is too be expected post-TG, from the opinions of Elayne and her actions Brandon showed Cadsuane to have.

Jokeslayer
01-11-2013, 09:05 AM
They basically enhanced the advantages Mat already possessed when he visited them, and their appearance at the Last Battle makes their motivations clear. And since Mordeth also visited them, perhaps they sought to eliminate his evil, too. Mat was already immune to the evil of Shadar Logoth when he visited them, and that was foreshadowed in TGH, before Mat even had the full Healing.

I feel like I missed something. The finn were at the Last Battle?

Terez
01-11-2013, 09:10 AM
Young Bull became Perrin, with hammer at the ready, crouching on the plain of fragmentary fighting, changing people. Careful, he thought to himself. You are a wolf, but more a man. With a start, he realized that some of those impressions weren’t completely human. He saw a couple that were distinctly snakelike in appearance, though they faded quickly.

Does this place reflect other worlds? he wondered, not certain what else to make of the phantoms.And later:
Something about this place, this moment, sent Perrin and Slayer into a spiraling series of flickers between worlds. Back and forth, back and forth, flashes of moments and thoughts. Flicker. Flicker. Flicker.

Men died around them. Some of dust, some of flesh. Their world, alongside shadows of other worlds. Men in strange clothing and armor, fighting beasts of all shapes and sizes. Moments where the Aiel became Seanchan, who became something between the two, with spears and light eyes but helmets shaped like monstrous insects.

In all of those moments, in all of those places, Perrin's hammer struck and Young Bull's fangs grabbed Slayer by the neck. He tasted the salty warmth of Slayer's blood in his mouth. He felt the hammer vibrate as it hit, and he heard bones crack. The worlds flashed like bolts of lightning.

Jokeslayer
01-11-2013, 02:07 PM
Thanks.

Tollingtoy
01-11-2013, 02:30 PM
And the Kin until the "Battle of Chop and Arrays" mostly provided gateways and battlefield Healing to Elayne's soldiers and were frequently exhausted.


I'm not suggesting they shouldn't have been in the books, but I don't feel the time focused on them warrants the role they played. Brandon could just as easily have had the new novices Egwene brought to the Tower acting in that role, or another group of weaker channelers

Terez
01-11-2013, 02:35 PM
Healing, yes. Supplying the armies, no. That was a specialty of the Sea Folk.

ShadowbaneX
01-11-2013, 02:47 PM
I also feel that Fain was somewhat wasted. I think I might have liked the ending better if somehow it was Fain that was used to be the barrier between the DO & Saidin/Saidar when Rand was sealing the Bore, rather than Callandor also being an angreal for the True Power as well. That just sorta seemed to come out of left field.

Tollingtoy
01-11-2013, 04:08 PM
Healing, yes. Supplying the armies, no. That was a specialty of the Sea Folk.


Maybe you guys are right, a Sea Folk POV or two would have gone a long way toward making them seem more relevant in the finished product

Terez
01-11-2013, 04:14 PM
I agree. Harine and Shalon would have been especially nice, but all we got was a bit of Zaida.

Dom
01-11-2013, 04:15 PM
That just sorta seemed to come out of left field.

It makes a rather nice puzzle considering what we now know (and still don't know) of their making.

I guess Rand would have forewarned Elayne more directly to wait until the new sealing if that's a result of the DO being accessible/touching the Pattern, but maybe his "wait until after the war" was just that, while keeping the secret about Callandor from her.

Another possibility is that someone among the makers (I get the feeling angreal are made by a single person, san'angreal by circles) was an infiltrated Forsaken.

The way the seed works, I also wonder if Cyndane/Moiraine have truly been reduced in strength permanently, or if they will very very slowly regain their full strength back, over several months, as if they had made an angreal.

Terez
01-11-2013, 04:20 PM
I think Brandon tried to drop hints about how Callandor became a True Power sa'angreal with the Seed and Demandred bonding himself to the other sa'angreal. I just don't know what to make of it. It seems clumsy, and I wonder how detailed RJ's notes were on the subject. Some people are annoyed that RJ said Moridin wouldn't be able to draw the True Power through a male angreal.

fionwe1987
01-11-2013, 04:30 PM
I think Brandon tried to drop hints about how Callandor became a True Power sa'angreal with the Seed and Demandred bonding himself to the other sa'angreal. I just don't know what to make of it. It seems clumsy, and I wonder how detailed RJ's notes were on the subject. Some people are annoyed that RJ said Moridin wouldn't be able to draw the True Power through a male angreal.

For me, I think the access to the TP was deliberately designed. I have no doubts that some scientists on the side of the Light had a pretty extensive knowledge of the True Power. If enough survived for the Tower to know of it, and how how some TP weaves functioned, I think its reasonable to assume it was studied fairly well. And if ter'angreal can be made that allow you to be hidden from Shai'tan, then is it impossible to believe someone figured out a possible way to magnify the TP? They may even have done so after the tainting, trying to come up with a way to magnify it, and figuring out that since the taint was the TP, something that magnifies the tain would magnify the TP too.

I suspect the whole thing was deliberately done precisely in the hope of avoiding another tainting.

Terez
01-11-2013, 04:45 PM
How was it supposed to be studied by Lightsiders? They discovered it, but it couldn't be used until they drilled the Bore, and then only by the Dark One's permission for which one had to travel to Shayol Ghul. And we know that Callandor was made during the War of Power, so it was before the taint.

fionwe1987
01-11-2013, 04:54 PM
I agree. Harine and Shalon would have been especially nice, but all we got was a bit of Zaida.
I forget... we had a Zaida PoV?

Tollingtoy
01-11-2013, 04:56 PM
I forget... we had a Zaida PoV?

Very, VERY briefly

fionwe1987
01-11-2013, 04:57 PM
How was it supposed to be studied by Lightsiders? They discovered it, but it couldn't be used until they drilled the Bore, and then only by the Dark One's permission for which one had to travel to Shayol Ghul. And we know that Callandor was made during the War of Power, so it was before the taint.
I suspect its more that Callandor was modified after the taint was readily available to study, and this accounts for its TP magnifying ability. It also explains why Cadsuane only knew it magnifies the taint, and nothing about it magnifying the TP itself.

Dom
01-11-2013, 05:02 PM
Some people are annoyed that RJ said Moridin wouldn't be able to draw the True Power through a male angreal.

That was a fairly dangerous RAFO, so he went with the Aes Sedai answer.

I think Brandon must have found the Seed in the OP notes that are apparently very extensive, but I really don't know if RJ left specific instructions whether he'd use this or not. Possibly, if the matter of the gifts was in the notes, probably not if Brandon came up with that idea.

Terez
01-11-2013, 05:23 PM
I forget... we had a Zaida PoV?
No, we get her in Ituralde's POV.

ShadowbaneX
01-11-2013, 09:04 PM
That's what I meant when I said it came out of left field. It just doesn't quite seem right. I mean Moridin himself didn't know that it could amplify the True Power...yet somehow Min figures it out? And tells Rand...off stage so it comes out as a surprise to the readers. Yeah, I dunno, it just doesn't seem to fit right.

I kinda like the idea of Fain being the buffer between Saidin/Saidar & the DO, rather than the True Power...would have been a better use of something that had been building since the very first chapters of the series. As it is, Fain just gets winked out by a "hey, yeah, it appears that if you've been infected & cured by your DO-rivaling evil, you can't be effected by it any more? Who knew?" Mat.

Again, it just doesn't seem to fit together quite right. If you had Fain down there as well, or perhaps even an un-embodied Shadar Logoth after Mat had his "hey, I'm immune" moment to channel through as you're shoving the Power down the DO's throat with Moridin holding Callandor, that seems to fit together a bit better to me.

verbose
01-11-2013, 10:19 PM
However, I think that his major flaw was that he couldn't tie things up well, and when he did tie things up he had a tendency to untie them.

He killed 3 of the forsaken only to bring them back to life.
Of those 3, only one had a really significant part in the books.

One thing that we should also take into account is that we do not know which scenes in the book were written by RJ and which were written by BS.
BS stated that some of the scenes were completely written by RJ, others were partially written, and the rest were notes.

We don't know how much of an outline for the last 3 books BS was working with.
I am willing to bet that the cleansing was based on RJs outline.