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Cortar
01-12-2013, 03:35 PM
stuffstuffstuffstuffstuffstuffstuffstuffstuffstuff stuff

Okay, so maybe I missed something, but was it ever explained why Knotai wasn't selected as a Hero of the Horn, since apparently he wasn't one already...

Jokeslayer
01-12-2013, 04:29 PM
Why would you assume he would be?

Davian93
01-12-2013, 05:09 PM
stuffstuffstuffstuffstuffstuffstuffstuffstuffstuff stuff

Okay, so maybe I missed something, but was it ever explained why Knotai wasn't selected as a Hero of the Horn, since apparently he wasn't one already...

It kinda was in that scene itself when he asks if he is one...Mat thinks that he would rather do his own thing then come whenever people call. It hints that his independent nature makes him a bad choice for a Hero or something like that.

"Maybe because I don't like the idea of having to hop whenever anyone blows that bloody instrument!"

"Maybe!" Hend grinned and galloped toward a line of Sharan spears.

Terez
01-13-2013, 02:32 AM
That scene struck me as fanservice.

Cortar
01-13-2013, 04:51 AM
That scene struck me as fanservice.

A lot of this book struck me as fanservice...

Why would you assume he would be?

It kinda was in that scene itself when he asks if he is one...Mat thinks that he would rather do his own thing then come whenever people call. *It hints that his independent nature makes him a bad choice for a Hero or something like that.

As to why he wasn't a HotH. He had done more in this life than any other hero. He even had a "Title." If thats not enough, then I don't know what is.

Also, to the whole "he is independent." Knotai always does what is right, even if he doesn't like it. I thought that was the whole point of his growth in the series. Realizing that he would do stuff he didn't want to because it was the Right thing to do.

GonzoTheGreat
01-13-2013, 06:07 AM
It may be that he is always either the first or the only Hornsounder. If true, then he couldn't be a HotH, since then he wouldn't be available to blow the thing to summon himself in order to blow it.

Alternatively, when Valere made the thing, Mat was nearby and 'suggested' that he be left out of it.

Hend could be aware of either (perhaps both) facts, and also be aware that every time Mat has an opportunity to do so, he wants to ask and also doesn't want to hear the answer.

Zombie Sammael
01-13-2013, 06:45 AM
I hated that exchange like rats. Mat is the most fundamental of heroes. He should be a HOTH.

sleepinghour
01-13-2013, 07:06 AM
I found it disappointing as well. I was also surprised that Egwene and Verin didn't show up when the Horn was sounded. Maybe they've all been bound to a rival instrument of music and become Heroes of Thom's Flute.

Terez
01-13-2013, 07:12 AM
I found it disappointing as well. I was also surprised that Egwene and Verin didn't show up when the Horn was sounded.
But Verin did. ;)

sleepinghour
01-13-2013, 07:23 AM
But Verin did. ;)

In my head canon, Nakomi's a Dreamwalker who made the mistake of entering T'A'R in the flesh too many times. Her disappearance is why the WOs warn against doing that, although they no longer remember why. (I don't care if that theory makes sense or not; it's the one that annoys me the least.)

Terez
01-13-2013, 07:24 AM
Does that mean Perrin is immortal? :)

sleepinghour
01-13-2013, 07:35 AM
Does that mean Perrin is immortal? :)

I freely admit this is a crack theory, but I like the idea that the "unseen eyes" in T'A'R belong to Dreamwalkers who (knowingly or not) violated the rules. Though I don't see it happening after only doing so once or twice. Rand and Egwene entered T'A'R in the flesh as well.

halo6819
01-13-2013, 07:46 AM
I think that maybe another reason why Mat is not a HotH is because his soul is only needed when the horn is going to be blown, and there for does not need to be tied directly to it.

GonzoTheGreat
01-13-2013, 08:37 AM
Perrin was hopping about madly, at one point. Then again, so was Slayer, he had been doing that a lot longer, and he hadn't been reduced to eye-only* status, yet. Then again, having two souls may have buffered him in some way.

* A neat feature of this would be that those disembodied Dreamwalkers (DD#)would be sort of a counter to the Eyeless.

# Then again, surely there are no double-D women in the WOT ...

Davian93
01-13-2013, 09:36 AM
That scene struck me as fanservice.

~nodding~

Yup, it sure did...he did everything but hit us over the head with it. (and a million other fan theories for that matter)

Jokeslayer
01-13-2013, 10:38 AM
~nodding~

Yup, it sure did...he did everything but hit us over the head with it. (and a million other fan theories for that matter)

It was, but since it debunked a theory I particularly dislike, I'm going to proclaim it a wonderful piece of writing.

Tollingtoy
01-13-2013, 12:16 PM
In my head canon, Nakomi's a Dreamwalker who made the mistake of entering T'A'R in the flesh too many times. Her disappearance is why the WOs warn against doing that, although they no longer remember why. (I don't care if that theory makes sense or not; it's the one that annoys me the least.)


Actually, that's the best theory I've seen. It's more plausible than the Avatar of the Creator or Verin and better than the shoulder shrug we get when asked about it

tarski
01-13-2013, 02:12 PM
As to why he wasn't a HotH. He had done more in this life than any other hero. He even had a "Title." If thats not enough, then I don't know what is.

Also, to the whole "he is independent." Knotai always does what is right, even if he doesn't like it. I thought that was the whole point of his growth in the series. Realizing that he would do stuff he didn't want to because it was the Right thing to do.

When I read that scene, I got the impression that what was missing was the whole being a friend to Rand thing. Later, Mat thinks that he's done his part and Rand should do his and that should be that. Then of course he redeems himself at the end, and maybe that tips the scales.

I thought this would have been a lot more poignant if his flight to Ebou Dar had been written properly, as Dom pointed out elsewhere.

SamJ
01-13-2013, 02:18 PM
I read the 'am I a hero' scene as implying that he is going to be one. Mat always says he isn't a hero then goes ahead and is one.

metaphor
01-14-2013, 01:23 PM
Maybe he'll be become one after he dies?
He was a táveren as strong as Hawkwing and fought in the Last Battle. If he can't become a Hero of the Horn who can?

Crispin's Crispian
01-14-2013, 02:31 PM
Maybe he'll be become one after he dies?
He was a táveren as strong as Hawkwing and fought in the Last Battle. If he can't become a Hero of the Horn who can?

I thought it was hilarious. But then, I find Mat fanboys to be annoying.

One of Mat's archetypal roles is the Trickster. He's critically important, but he isn't always a good guy. In fact, most people don't like him, even when he does good things. In some myths, the Trickster is even responsible for the bad stuff that ends the world.

In that sense, I'm perfectly fine with Mat not being a Hero--ever. Sometimes he does the right thing, sometimes he doesn't. He can't be Hero because he doesn't want to be tied to the good guys all the time.

metaphor
01-14-2013, 02:46 PM
I thought it was hilarious. But then, I find Mat fanboys to be annoying.

One of Mat's archetypal roles is the Trickster. He's critically important, but he isn't always a good guy. In fact, most people don't like him, even when he does good things. In some myths, the Trickster is even responsible for the bad stuff that ends the world.

In that sense, I'm perfectly fine with Mat not being a Hero--ever. Sometimes he does the right thing, sometimes he doesn't. He can't be Hero because he doesn't want to be tied to the good guys all the time.

Oh yes. As far as Mat's character's goes not being a hero is perfect for him. He's the one who became part of the enemies, first with mashadar, then with the Seanchan when they weren't yet allied, and at the same time he was not bound by them.
But it seems to contradicts the rules of the world for one with such a role to not become a Hero.
And being ta'veren is all about being tightly tied to the pattern.
But then we don't really know much about how being tied to the horn works, so it doesn't really matter.

Terez
01-14-2013, 02:47 PM
I thought it was hilarious. But then, I find Mat fanboys to be annoying.
I don't mind Mat not being a hero. I just found the scene itself to be jarring, in the way fanservice is often jarring.

ShadowbaneX
01-14-2013, 02:57 PM
Did anyone else find it interesting that Hawkwing wanted to take to the field against Mat? Is it just me, or does that sort of imply that it's never happened? That might mean that Mat's Gambler role might be reserved for special purposes?

Davian93
01-14-2013, 03:01 PM
Did anyone else find it interesting that Hawkwing wanted to take to the field against Mat? Is it just me, or does that sort of imply that it's never happened? That might mean that Mat's Gambler role might be reserved for special purposes?

Perhaps...the very obvious chance for Mat to mention to Hawkwing that he REMEMBERED DOING THAT VERY THING was lost there.

But hey, we got that super cool pissing contest between Rand/Mat at least.

metaphor
01-14-2013, 03:08 PM
Did anyone else find it interesting that Hawkwing wanted to take to the field against Mat? Is it just me, or does that sort of imply that it's never happened? That might mean that Mat's Gambler role might be reserved for special purposes?

Maybe his previous incarnations weren't as good military leaders as his current one.
Ancient memories and all that.

ShadowbaneX
01-14-2013, 03:22 PM
Not quite Dav. Mat remembered it, but that wasn't Mat('s soul) that did it. It was someone else and Mat merely had the memory of it.

I'm sure that Hawkwing wouldn't think it's nearly the same sort of thing. Does this also imply that Mat usually gets his head stuffed with other men's memories, or does he get his ability to General in some other fashion?

ShadowbaneX
01-14-2013, 03:44 PM
As stated, Mat's abilities comes in part having all those memories shoved in to his head. As Mat himself states, with all those memories it doesn't take too much in the way of brains to figure things out, when you've got THAT much experience.

Dom
01-14-2013, 07:31 PM
One of Mat's archetypal roles is the Trickster. He's critically important, but he isn't always a good guy. In fact, most people don't like him, even when he does good things. In some myths, the Trickster is even responsible for the bad stuff that ends the world.

I completely agree.

It's a big part of the reasons why I find Brandon's version of Mat didn't work well.

Mat's evolved a lot from his days as a village trickster, the immature bad boy whose pranks were annoying but on the whole usually inoffensive.

By the late series RJ had subtly darkening him into another type of trickster, far more ambiguous and even dangerous: Mat's pranks he played on armies, and real people died. A whole lot of people died to open a path for Tuon and let Mat vanish from Altara.

From what we can surmise, RJ intended Mat to go into a phase where he became a totally unreliable trickster that basically only helps himself and acts on its own whims - a very unreliable helper. Then he came to his senses and Rand got him North at last. But his "last battle" was to be his darkest, most costly of all.

It's there, but then it's not. Brandon found the right mythological angles to rest his Perrin (and others, incl. Egwene, Lanfear) on, but for Mat IMO he erred. He approached Mat drawing inspiration from the lighter trickster stories, following what RJ had done in the early series, instead for going for the much darker stuff RJ drew from for the late series's Mat.

bowlwoman
01-14-2013, 07:43 PM
Then again, surely there are no double-D women in the WOT ...

So I guess that means Pamela Anderson isn't a HotH...