PDA

View Full Version : Scenes we'd love to see...


Xarra
01-12-2013, 04:56 PM
So, anyone else want to list any scenes they think SHOULD have been in AMoL or following AMoL want to see?

|
Spoiler Space
|

For me:

Hawkwing saying hello to Tuon
More Tuon/Matt/Seanchan (I like the whole alien culture!)
Some Shara stuff - I'll admit some of the stuff didn't make sense... It probably made sense to BS and RJ as they wrote it & I presume have the background somewhere, but not for me!
Morgase/Elyane
More, well, closure on the BT and WT... And how Cadsuane does as Amyrlin...
Faile being crowned - and the 'fun' that causes with Perrin as Lord of a different nation (the Two Rivers/Andor!)

Anyone for any more? :)

Suprisingly I think RAND'S story is pretty much finished, so it was a good end. But there's all those open ends I wish could be filled...

Davian93
01-12-2013, 05:07 PM
I think the Hawkwing/Tuon scene would have been even worse than the Rand/Mat pissing match...especially with BS writing it.

Faile being crowned - and the 'fun' that causes with Perrin as Lord of a different nation (the Two Rivers/Andor!)

Historically, that's not all that rare for nobles to have lands/titles in several different countries. It was particularly common in England/France during the middle ages as well as Scotland/England even well before their personal union under the Stuarts. A great example of it would be the Habsburg family ruling most of Europe eventually as a result of this type of phenomenon.

Perrin will be Prince Consort of Saldaea with the Queen of Ghealdan as his liege woman and he'll hold the High Seat of an Andoran House (House Aybara I'd imagine) under Elayne. Messy but not really that unusual.

Xarra
01-12-2013, 05:26 PM
I think the Hawkwing/Tuon scene would have been even worse than the Rand/Mat pissing match...especially with BS writing it.

Am I the only person that actually liked that scene? *hides*

Davian93
01-12-2013, 05:35 PM
Am I the only person that actually liked that scene? *hides*

No, one or two others did too.

Jalyn
01-12-2013, 05:38 PM
Am I the only person that actually liked that scene? *hides*

I was reading awful fast and haven't gone back to reread it, but I don't remember having an issue. (And I know I chuckled at the final comeback.)

kamarile
01-12-2013, 08:13 PM
I would like to have seen a Moiraine and Siuan reunion...

AgeOfLegends
01-12-2013, 08:18 PM
Yeah I felt that a Moiraine and Siuan reunion would've been nice. We still never had all 3 ta'veren together at once after book 3(?) so maybe all 3 of them around a campfire before the last battle would've been cool too.

Jokeslayer
01-13-2013, 12:53 AM
I think the Hawkwing/Tuon scene would have been even worse than the Rand/Mat pissing match...especially with BS writing it.



Historically, that's not all that rare for nobles to have lands/titles in several different countries. It was particularly common in England/France during the middle ages as well as Scotland/England even well before their personal union under the Stuarts. A great example of it would be the Habsburg family ruling most of Europe eventually as a result of this type of phenomenon.

Perrin will be Prince Consort of Saldaea with the Queen of Ghealdan as his liege woman and he'll hold the High Seat of an Andoran House (House Aybara I'd imagine) under Elayne. Messy but not really that unusual.

And all those situations ended well for those involved.

GonzoTheGreat
01-13-2013, 05:33 AM
Historically, that's not all that rare for nobles to have lands/titles in several different countries. It was particularly common in England/France during the middle ages as well as Scotland/England even well before their personal union under the Stuarts. A great example of it would be the Habsburg family ruling most of Europe eventually as a result of this type of phenomenon.
In England and France that was sorted out after only a bit more than a century of fighting. Then again, they weren't as smart as Elayne, who started out by writing a rule to prevent trouble into the initial agreement. Which, admittedly, won't do much good if Faile only has one kid ever.

The Habsburg had some kind of saying that went like "others wage war, you, lucky Austria, wage marriage".

Davian93
01-13-2013, 09:35 AM
And all those situations ended well for those involved.

LOL...Quite well.

professorskar
01-14-2013, 04:17 PM
I was kind of surprised Dragonmount didn't erupt. I always kind of expected that. It would probably mean the end of Tar Valon though (maybe not...I'm not sure how far away from the villages/city Dragonmount is, but if I recall it's friggin' huge, I think Jordan said around the size of Olympus Mons, which is like three times the size of Everest)

There were a lot of more character driven moments I would have liked to see, like the aforementioned Siuan/Moiraine reunion, a Moiraine/Lan reunion--instead of just the aftermath. I would have liked to see a lot more of Thom, who I felt almost seemed like an afterthought. I swear it's like BS forgot to write him in at all and went back in an edit to add in scenes of him following Moiraine around or whittling.

metaphor
01-14-2013, 04:29 PM
I would have liked more interaction between the characters, especially between Rand and Galad.

Am I the only person that actually liked that scene? *hides*

Usually those who don't like something are the most vocal, while those who liked it don't go on forums to express it repeatedly.

Jalyn
01-14-2013, 05:12 PM
Character interactions that I missed:

Galad and Rand ("Hey! I always wanted a brother!" vs "You mean that YOU'RE the reason my mother ran away when I was a baby? And, wait, does this mean that I have 3 younger siblings and all of them are bastards because my parents were still married? And, um, you're sleeping with one of them?*)
Moraine and Suian
Suian/Leanne/Min and Logain
Mat and his entire damn family
Actually, Egwene and HER entire damn family**
Lan and Moraine
Tuon and an a'dam***
Morgause and the High Lady that she had whipped through the streets

General things I would have liked to see:
Elaida learning all of the things she screwed up in her foretellings
Someone telling Demandred that he simply wasn't important enough for Rand to waste his time
Verin's notes, letters and machinations explained properly
Logain and Cadsuane collaborating on anything****
Egwene explaining to Rand how she at least somewhat fixed his Seanchan complete bungle by getting a concession that any da'mane that wants to leave is allowed to do so
Some sort of resolution to the male a'dam
Moraine doing something that couldn't have been done by someone else
More reactions to Moraine's return
Mat's actual reaction to Camlyn burning, the light side forming up for the LB and running away.


*NOTE: NOT an indication that Rand is related to Elayne, as he is not, but an indication that this would be a really bizarre situation for Galad.

**I'm not sure how many of Mat's family made it out of EF, but at least his sister and Dad did. I don't know that we saw any of Egwene's family, but she can travel, go say I love you sometime before the world collapses into the last battle?

***Just for a little bit. Just to get the damn TASTE of it in her damn stubborn annoying head.

****I just think that this would have been a nice nod to the ending with both of them presumed leaders of their Towers and that things MIGHT work okay, but with enough friction to know that it won't be easy regardless.

Crispin's Crispian
01-14-2013, 06:15 PM
I was kind of surprised Dragonmount didn't erupt. I always kind of expected that. It would probably mean the end of Tar Valon though (maybe not...I'm not sure how far away from the villages/city Dragonmount is, but if I recall it's friggin' huge, I think Jordan said around the size of Olympus Mons, which is like three times the size of Everest).

Well, Androl went ahead and released the pressure. Now the fields around Cairhien have some added character.

The problem with the whole thing is that it had to be treated like a movie adaptation. There was just too much to contain in one book, so a ton of stuff felt forced and other stuff was missing.

I was really hoping for Galad to think more about Rand as his brother, instead of just "Oh, Light." We got next to nothing of his reaction because we didn't have time.

Something telling us anything about Alanna might have been nice, instead of, "Oh shit, Alanna's here!"

The Black Tower battle.
Aforementioned Sharan elaboration.

I was thinking about Fortuona and her very quick rationalization for being a sul'dam. I feel that was also an "adaptation for time" issue, as it was way too neat.

Sinistrum
01-14-2013, 06:20 PM
Mine would be:

1. What the heck happened to Dobraine? He never materialized once in the last book

2. We know that Bashere and Bryne bit the dust and Ituralde survived, but what happend to Agelmar? He gets relieved by Lan, points out what he did to Tenobia, and that's the last we see of him one way or the other.

3. Did Leane survive? Her last POV is as Egwene dies and then that's it. She was one of handful of people I actually grant the title of Aes Sedai my in mind to, so I actually cared what happened to her as opposed to most of the rest of them.

4. I will echo Tuon's conversation with Hawkwing. I was itching to see it and never did.

5. Ditto with Moraine and Lan.

6. I could have definitely done with a quick bit from Tam's perspective with him seeing Hawkwing riding by, seeing his sword and going "hey...wait a minute..."

7. I would have liked a little more clarification as to what happened to the shadowspawn and blight dwellers. It was implied that they died off by Rand's holodeck vision of his victory over the DO and the fact that he just rode off from SG but nothing was ever specifically mentioned.

8. Did Amys survived? Once again, she was one of the few wise ones I cared about. She just sort of vanished in the fight with Granny.

9. What happened to the Aes Sedai Graendal Compelled? This is merely a curiousity since one of them (Sarene) had a Min vision attached to her I was wondering about. She was supposed to have a torrid love affair, so I was curious if her thralldom to Granny counted.

10. No Bran Al'Vere? I would have thought they could have incorporated him into the Two Rivers forces somehow and had some interaction with him and Egwene.

11. How the hell did Alanna end up in the Bore? What was she doing and what was Verin's letter to telling her to do that led her there? Would have been nice instead of just dumping her there for a random tension building plot device.

Crispin's Crispian
01-14-2013, 06:35 PM
11. How the hell did Alanna end up in the Bore? What was she doing and what was Verin's letter to telling her to do that led her there? Would have been nice instead of just dumping her there for a random tension building plot device.
I know. It's almost like...RJ wrote that ending scene with Alanna at the Bore, but left no notes on what happened to her prior to that. Brandon just rolled with it and hoped we wouldn't ask too many questions.

Sinistrum
01-14-2013, 07:04 PM
I almost forgot my most important scene I would have liked to have seen. Lan v. Karede, epic staring contest!

Alec
01-14-2013, 10:45 PM
I would love to see a well done version of the meeting at Merrilor instead of what we got.

Also for scenes I haven't seen mentioned yet, I'd love to see Nynaeve's reaction when she finds out that they have been keeping the fact that Rand is actually alive from her. I think she'd finally pull her hair right out.

I would have liked to see something about Rand/Galad being brothers. Rand didn't seem to care too much about it as he (and we) have known for a while, but Gawyn delivers it to Galad with his dying breath and then we get some pondering from Galad but no follow up. Seems like an odd thing to bring up with no follow through. It really seems like that at some point one of the authors intended this to be more important (even if only to Galad internally).

neurotopia
01-14-2013, 11:54 PM
How it should've ended.

Fain makes it into the tunnel when Rand is chastising the DO for being a mite. Since the DO is completely pulled into the pattern, both he and Rand are vulnerable. Fain sees a 2 for 1 kill opportunity and extends Mashadar their way. Rand is faced with the choice of

1. Using the only known weapon to fight Mashadar- balefire. And risk further destroying the pattern.
2. Releasing and allying with the DO to defeat Fain
3. Shoving the DO and Fain through the bore and sealing them off.
4. Shoving Fain through, sealing it off, and killing the DO so there's only one DO left.
5. Throwing the DO and Fain at each other to buy time to figure out what to do.
6. Whatever else can be thought of, including Mat bloody Cauthon really and truly saving the bloody world at the last second.

Insane amounts of gravitas would've been added, and it would've been even more true to the theme that evil provides the tools for its own destruction.

Scrooge
01-15-2013, 02:17 AM
More Moiraine. I waited over a decade for Moiraine's return, and all I got was 10 pages of nothing in ToM, and a glorified cameo in this book, followed by her sitting on the bench for the rest of the conclusion. Her and Nynaeve both got written out of the story, which is sad considering their relative importance to the storyline.

Got a freakin' Juilin Sandar PoV instead of more Moiraine. Ugh. Tinkers and Sea Folk got near as much screen time as Moiraine and Nynaeve.

Moiraine and Lan's reunion not being included felt like a tragedy.
Moiraine and Rand's reunion should have been extended. After all the internal anguish Rand put himself through with the guilt of Moiraine, her appearance felt like calling a witness to testify at trial.
Moiraine and Nynaeve spent most of the book next to each other and yet we got almost no actual interaction between the two. A single teary hug as the totality of their interaction just doesn't cut it.

Along with the utter lack of Moiraine, I wanted an extended Epilogue. I get the whole we got "an" ending junk, but I wanted "the" ending. The Epilogue was more or less just a listing of who survives. How do Lan and Nynaeve rebuild Malkier? How large does the Two Rivers eventually grow? What happens to the Borderlands now that there is no Blight to defend against? Does Kandor get rebulit? What does Elayne name her children? What happens to the relationship between the White and Black Towers?

I want the ever after. I want the scene where Moiraine and Thom ride off to new adventures. I want the scene where Elayne walks into her burnt down Palace and begins the rebuilding. Hell, I hate Egwene, but I want to see the elaborate memorial the White Tower performs for her. Actually, rather I want to see Cadsuane preside over this memorial. I want the scene of Rand showing up somewhere, not the one of him riding off.

Wanted to see Tam notice Justice on Hawkwing.
Although I did enjoy Lan and Tam's short scene. Worthy substitute.

Was hoping for more impressive scenes for the Great Captains. They were mentioned and built up near the beginning of the series and the last one to show up (Ituralde) was the only one who actually got scenes in any books where he appeared to be worth his reputation. After the Ituralde's impressive showing in ToM, I readily expected some spectacular crap from the rest. It's the Last Battle and the perfect opportunity for them to cut loose. Instead they all just failed as a means to push Mat where he needed to go.

After the "If you see a Malkier, you tell them Jain Farstrider died clean" bit in ToM, I was half expecting something about it to creep up. Neither Mat nor Thom ever mentions it to Lan, and no scene with Lan seeing Farstrider at all. Not terribly disappointed it didn't happen, though. Jain's expected return as a HotH was done fabulously.

Was expecting some kind of Egwene and Cadsuane scene.

Not at all happy with how Rand spent half the book locked in a game of virtual etch-a-sketch one-ups-manship with the DO. I didn't expect him to go swinging his sword in a physical fight with the DO, but I did expect an extended fight sequence against Moridin as a substitute.

I was really hoping to see a scene where someone actually spat in someone else's eye.

Don't recall much of Narishma in this book. Was he even in it? I was expecting something out of him given the earlier Callandor shenanigans, but I can't even remember if he's in AMoL.

Logain was a total failure. I liked his character, and with his early introduction to the series, we've been bombarded by foreshadowing that he was gonna show up in a big way. I really expected a giant showdown between him and Taim. Instead, he spends the entire book a relatively broken man, and gets crushed in a one sided affair in the one real fight sequence he has.

Moghedien did nothing. Didn't expect her to. But for all that she was supposed to be superior than Lanfear in T'A'R, I expected her to at least attempt something worthwhile. Her spying could have been accomplished by any run of the mill Black Ajah sister. Should have given Nynaeve another chance to stomp her again at the very least.

In fact, most of the Forsaken didn't do much of anything. Moridin spent the vast majority of the book locked in sword pose stasis while Rand was mind fighting the DO. And for all that M'Hael was built up through the series, he didn't do much of anything either. He failed to Turn Logain, ran from Pageboy, got spanked by Demandred, got conned by Pageboy, got beaten by Egwene, then came back and got beaten by Egwene again. Very pathetic showing. Graendel was sufficient I guess, but this is the final book. I was expecting some epic shenanigans here. Of the five Forsaken in this book, only Demandred delivered.

Knew it was never gonna happen, but I was really hoping for a cleansing of Saidin battle where the Forsaken actually stood and fought. A giant One Power battle royal between the multiple named channelers cutting loose. Something like Demandred + Taim VS Logain, Egwene, Elayne, Cadsuane and Aviendha. Or Moridin + Moghedian + Lanfear VS Rand + Nynaeve + Moiraine. Not the generic Aes Sedai #43 flinging balls of fire at Sharan Ayyad #353. Almost all the One Power battles were one on one affairs.

GonzoTheGreat
01-15-2013, 04:17 AM
Galad and Rand ("Hey! I always wanted a brother!" vs "You mean that YOU'RE the reason my mother ran away when I was a baby? And, wait, does this mean that I have 3 younger siblings and all of them are bastards because my parents were still married? And, um, you're sleeping with one of them?*)
Of course not. That would be wholly inappropriate. Elayne isn't a bastard; by the time she was born Tigraine was well and truly dead.

Of course, it might be possible to ask what it means for the legality of the marriage of Morgase and Taringail, that Tigraine had still been alive while that marriage supposedly took place. Seeing as how Elayne would get to be the judge on that trial, I don't expect too many problems, though.

Jalyn
01-15-2013, 09:46 AM
Of course not. That would be wholly inappropriate. Elayne isn't a bastard; by the time she was born Tigraine was well and truly dead.

Of course, it might be possible to ask what it means for the legality of the marriage of Morgase and Taringail, that Tigraine had still been alive while that marriage supposedly took place. Seeing as how Elayne would get to be the judge on that trial, I don't expect too many problems, though.

We're talking about Galad. His father married Morguase while Tigraine was still alive, therefore they were never really married.

Davian93
01-15-2013, 09:48 AM
We're talking about Galad. His father married Morguase while Tigraine was still alive, therefore they were never really married.

Taringail may very well have filed for divorce due to abandonment...thus, its a non-issue.

GonzoTheGreat
01-15-2013, 10:05 AM
Is divorce allowed (or even known, for that matter) in Randland?

Terez
01-15-2013, 10:08 AM
Yes, it's known.

TITLE: Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 22 - To Make an Anchor Weep

Harine jerked so hard she spilled wine over the back of her hand, then took another long swallow. But, no, Zaida would divorce Amel and marry a ballast stone before she sent Harine din Togara as her ambassador.

GonzoTheGreat
01-15-2013, 10:11 AM
So Morgase is the shorebound equivalent of a ballast stone. I wonder whether anyone ever told her that.

David Selig
01-15-2013, 10:21 AM
Taringail may very well have filed for divorce due to abandonment...thus, its a non-issue.
Or Tigraine was declared dead in absentia after she was missing for 2-3 years. Either way, Morgase and Raringail's marriage is perfectly legal.

GonzoTheGreat
01-15-2013, 10:40 AM
Of course, seeing as how that "declared death" was based on a faulty assumption, that wouldn't be enough to suit Galad. :D

Xarra
01-15-2013, 01:45 PM
Also, what about whats-her-name who would be Mistress of the Ships one day? I wanted to see how she'd get there!

DahLliA
01-15-2013, 02:02 PM
How it should've ended.

Fain makes it into the tunnel when Rand is chastising the DO for being a mite. Since the DO is completely pulled into the pattern, both he and Rand are vulnerable. Fain sees a 2 for 1 kill opportunity and extends Mashadar their way. Rand is faced with the choice of

1. Using the only known weapon to fight Mashadar- balefire. And risk further destroying the pattern.
2. Releasing and allying with the DO to defeat Fain
3. Shoving the DO and Fain through the bore and sealing them off.
4. Shoving Fain through, sealing it off, and killing the DO so there's only one DO left.
5. Throwing the DO and Fain at each other to buy time to figure out what to do.
6. Whatever else can be thought of, including Mat bloody Cauthon really and truly saving the bloody world at the last second.

Insane amounts of gravitas would've been added, and it would've been even more true to the theme that evil provides the tools for its own destruction.

This. My biggest disappointment was Fain and how he ended up.

Felt like RJ got pissed about everyone not wanting him to pull a Gollum so he just dropped Fain completely from the end.

Terez
01-15-2013, 02:23 PM
Pretty sure that was planned from TEOTW. Fain was a source of conflict, but he was never a big boss. He was Mat's to kill from the moment Mat started spouting the Old Tongue in the fight outside Shadar Logoth.

neurotopia
01-15-2013, 02:31 PM
Pretty sure that was planned from TEOTW. Fain was a source of conflict, but he was never a big boss. He was Mat's to kill from the moment Mat started spouting the Old Tongue in the fight outside Shadar Logoth.

Which is a shame, because a more intricate ending for Fain could've supported the "evil in men's hearts" line of thought quite convincingly.

Jalyn
01-15-2013, 02:38 PM
Pretty sure that was planned from TEOTW. Fain was a source of conflict, but he was never a big boss. He was Mat's to kill from the moment Mat started spouting the Old Tongue in the fight outside Shadar Logoth.

Yep, I wouldn't have minded seeing a little more of Fain before his death scene, but I didn't need it and I liked the death itself. In the end, Fain simply wasn't nearly as important as he/it thought himself.

Did anyone else have a little flashback to the Angel series finale?

Edit to add:

Which is a shame, because a more intricate ending for Fain could've supported the "evil in men's hearts" line of thought quite convincingly.

But that would have cut against what was ultimately said about the DO, that the evil in men's hearts is just the DO's influence. Fain wasn't, in the end, a separate evil from the DO, just a different way to turn to the DO.

neurotopia
01-15-2013, 02:49 PM
But destroying the DO would also lead to a similarly horrifying world. And there are all sorts of juicy, unexplored implications for DO-derived evil, if you will, possibly supplanting the old but yet ending up nothing new.

That probably would've resulted in Fain replacing the DO (probably demanded by the Wheel in order to continue the Pattern), if the DO were slain. However Fain wouldn't be a Gollum in this situation, especially if Rand/Mat had to forcibly shove his ass through the Bore. Plus the uncertainty of "oh fuck what did we just do, and how will it affect future Turnings. Will channeling still work to defeat him etc etc".

Jalyn
01-15-2013, 02:59 PM
But destroying the DO would also lead to a similarly horrifying world. And there are all sorts of juicy, unexplored implications for DO-derived evil, if you will, possibly supplanting the old but yet ending up nothing new.

That probably would've resulted in Fain replacing the DO (probably demanded by the Wheel in order to continue the Pattern), if the DO were slain. However Fain wouldn't be a Gollum in this situation, especially if Rand/Mat had to forcibly shove his ass through the Bore. Plus the uncertainty of "oh fuck what did we just do, and how will it affect future Turnings. Will channeling still work to defeat him etc etc".

But all Fain was was a powered up human that has been corrupted by the DO. He can't replace the DO because once the DO is dead, he's no longer corrupted by the DO, he's just a shell like everyone else.

(Also, I absolutely hated that "kill the DO" was actually a bloody option in the first place, but that's a completely different argument.)

Ivhon
01-15-2013, 03:51 PM
So far as I can tell, I seem to be the only one massively disappointed with the Demandred show.

Stand on hill in shiny armor, yell for Lews Therin, balefire something, duel a lone swordsman that manages to get through his entire army of trollocs and channelers, kill said swordsman, repeat 3 times, die.

What doesn't add up (without the silly stretch of insanity not seen to date in the series):

That this guy who for the entire series has been competent, calculating, goal-oriented doesn't even stop to consider that LTT MIGHT not be there, espcially when he knows that Rand has to fight the DO. The taunts were good for about 20 pages. For the other 200 I felt like I was listening to a looped tape of "Old MacDonald Had a Farm" just like in my fraternity hazing days. Made me shiver.

With a full circle and a sa'angreal as powerful or more than Callandor, the last battle should have been done in about 10 seconds. He doesn't NEED to general. Just kill em all and the one guy left standing will be LTT (or, in actuality, nobody left standing - LTT isn't here *gasp*)

Does he actually ever take a step in any direction? If you aren't going to use your power in the fullest, how bout at least popping over to wherever the battle needs you most and killing all the lightsiders there?

All those fades, all those trollocs, all those sharans, all that Power-enhanced senses and THREE lone swordsmen get to him essentially unopposed in essentially the exact same way? Pshaw.

Speaking of that, when pressed by someone not LTT why not open a hole in the ground and swallow them - he already demonstrated that he is not honorable enough to have a fair fight.

In all I found him far too one-dimensional for what he had been built up to be. He was presented with FAR too much power and that could not be reconciled with the battle at hand - forcing the author(s) to have to hamstring him and diminish his guile and competence so that the tediously long last battle could play out.

I really found that Demandred, as written, ruined the Last Battle scene. Lost all of its plausibility for me.

Jalyn
01-15-2013, 06:15 PM
Was just reminded that I'd have loved to have gotten Slayers full backstory.
Isam was a child when he was brought into the Blight, did he ever have a chance to be anything but a darkfriend? We got some ideas of his childhood and it was unrelentingly bleak. Did he maybe become a whole hearted DF because he blamed the Malkeri for not searching for him after his mother fled?
What was Luc like before he was melded with Isam? Was he always a DF? If not, why was he not fighting against what Isam did? Did he ever?

The little glimpses that we got gave me the idea that their/his story may have been the most tragic in Randland. Remember Lan thinking that Isam and his mother had died in the Blight and he "could only feel sorry for the child" - how would he have reacted to know what had actually happened to him. There's also Galad and Rand learning that some portion of him was their uncle, at least at one point.

Crispin's Crispian
01-15-2013, 06:18 PM
I can't disagree with you. I liked that he truly was a genius tactician (in the plot) and a superb Blademaster. But...it felt way too much like a B-movie to me.

I realize that the Lightside had channelers cutting off weaves and stuff, but...what happened to reversing and inverting and all that? He could have just blown the knob off the top in the first couple minutes and been done with it. And yes, it was completely ridiculous that he would have thought Lews Therin was there. Or that Lews Therin would respond to his taunts.

Now that I think about it, the best parallel I can come up with is Donkey Kong.

Crispin's Crispian
01-15-2013, 06:19 PM
Was just reminded that I'd have loved to have gotten Slayers full backstory.
Isam was a child when he was brought into the Blight, did he ever have a chance to be anything but a darkfriend? We got some ideas of his childhood and it was unrelentingly bleak. Did he maybe become a whole hearted DF because he blamed the Malkeri for not searching for him after his mother fled?
What was Luc like before he was melded with Isam? Was he always a DF? If not, why was he not fighting against what Isam did? Did he ever?

The little glimpses that we got gave me the idea that their/his story may have been the most tragic in Randland. Remember Lan thinking that Isam and his mother had died in the Blight and he "could only feel sorry for the child" - how would he have reacted to know what had actually happened to him. There's also Galad and Rand learning that some portion of him was their uncle, at least at one point.

Yes, I very much agree. I thought the Isam part of the Prologue was really interesting, but, alas... :(

eht slat meit
01-15-2013, 06:55 PM
A firm answer, one way or the other, as to the truth of Sorilea - It was all I asked for! Instead, more suggestive, a kind of 'meh' Old Lady Mountain Power Brigade moment with Cadsuane, and then iirc last seen with Darlin's doomed party. At least Min's viewing re: Cadsuane was answered.

As already pointed out, holy anti-climax with Logain. Disappointing. Silver lining - paper-Rand dream is cleared up.

Those were my only two real complaints. I wouldn't mind seeing Avi rediscover flying.

seancook92
01-15-2013, 06:57 PM
The last scene of the book where Rand is riding off into the sunset wondering which of his 3 women are going to come after him, he completely ignores the fact that Elayne is going to have his babies in about 3 months...Would like to see something like that

Also Alanna. She bonds Rand then shows up for a few pages in the last book and plays an unimportant roll then dies. Would like to see something about why her character is important.

jana
01-15-2013, 07:06 PM
Also Alanna. She bonds Rand then shows up for a few pages in the last book and plays an unimportant roll then dies. Would like to see something about why her character is important.

I don't get why people think characters need to have vital endings to be important. Alanna played a big part in shaping Rand's psyche.

seancook92
01-15-2013, 07:09 PM
I don't remember much about her to be honest. I just remember her being gone for a long time, and the whole fact of her bonding him seems like she was originally supposed to have some kind of role.

LeeringCorpse
01-15-2013, 11:02 PM
I don't remember much about her to be honest. I just remember her being gone for a long time, and the whole fact of her bonding him seems like she was originally supposed to have some kind of role.
I think that was her role, to bond Rand and shape his personality and disposition toward the Tower. I know I would have like more from Alanna myself. Out of all the second string Aei Sedai I liked her best. I wouldn’t mind reading a book or novella about her earlier life, for some reason I think her life was an interesting one, after all, you need some major chutzpa to bond the Dragon Reborn without so much as a by your leave.

neurotopia
01-16-2013, 01:24 AM
Yeah but then she spent the next three books crying, off somewhere in the back of Rand's mind. She became pretty boring pretty quick.

professorskar
01-16-2013, 01:58 AM
[QUOTE=seancook92;209524]The last scene of the book where Rand is riding off into the sunset wondering which of his 3 women are going to come after him, he completely ignores the fact that Elayne is going to have his babies in about 3 months...Would like to see something like that
/QUOTE]

I don't see how any of them will be following after Rand any time soon, despite his thoughts on the matter. I mean, Elayne is a queen with a kingdom to rebuild, Aviendha is a Wise One with an obligation to her people and I really couldn't see her just running off after Rand. The only one without any attachments is Min...well, provided she can avoid Tuon's grasp, of course. And we all know Tuon's the type who will just let something she wants simply walk away from her. Anyway, my point is, that all three of Rand's ladies seem to have a lot more on their plate than just chopping firewood so that they can sleep in a barn.

yks 6nnetu hing
01-16-2013, 01:59 AM
Bits I wish I'd seen more of:

Min/Rand dynamic. We didn't even get to see them say goodbye properly. There was a whole long scene with Avi and one with Elayne but not Min.

Mat discovering that he's no longer ta'veren and my fervent hope perhaps coming true: his luck has run out, he's no longer lucky. then he'll realize that all that whining and griping was for nothing and will whine and mope and gripe about not being lucky any more. Up yours you frackin pirck, should have been smacked over the head with a frying pan every 10 minutes on general principle. (btw, I particularly hated the crash-landing scene. another example of "Oh Mat, the Indiana Jones of Randland, what CAN'T he do! fangirls screeaaaam!")

Moiraine and Lan meeting

Tuon in an a'dam

a sneak peek into what will happen with the White Tower: according to a rough estimation, over half of their numbers died in the LB; how do they deal with the diminished numbers, do they continue as female-only institution or will they merge withthe Black Tower? Will they change their general policy of not having babies and therefore breeding the ability to Channel out of mankind?

Davian93
01-16-2013, 07:36 AM
(btw, I particularly hated the crash-landing scene. another example of "Oh Mat, the Indiana Jones of Randland, what CAN'T he do! fangirls screeaaaam!")



That scene would have been pure gold had the following exchange taken place:

"Come on, Olver, we're getting out of here"

"I didn't know you could fly a Raken, Mat"

"Fly? YES!, Land? NO!"

Would have saved the entire novel IMHO.

GonzoTheGreat
01-16-2013, 08:01 AM
And then Mat would have tried to shoot Fain, only to discover that he had run out of bullets.

Sinistrum
01-16-2013, 12:30 PM
Min/Rand dynamic. We didn't even get to see them say goodbye properly. There was a whole long scene with Avi and one with Elayne but not Min.

I don't think we needed one. Rand wondered at the end which of the three would follow him. The answer is pretty logical. Out of all three, Min is a. the one with the shortest life span and b. the weakest sense of duty and loyalty to her current task and mistress. I'd bet on her staying with Tuon a few years to continue mellowing her out, getting Mat to help her orchestrate her escape, and then she'll be the first to track down Rand.

Terez
01-16-2013, 12:33 PM
I don't think we needed one. Rand wondered at the end which of the three would follow him. The answer is pretty logical. Out of all three, Min is a. the one with the shortest life span and b. the weakest sense of duty and loyalty to her current task and mistress.
RJ took care to point out that the Truthspeaker is allowed to take extended holidays; that's what Semirhage was doing, and it didn't seem to be against protocol or anything.

Lost One
01-16-2013, 12:41 PM
So far as I can tell, I seem to be the only one massively disappointed with the Demandred show.

Stand on hill in shiny armor, yell for Lews Therin, balefire something, duel a lone swordsman that manages to get through his entire army of trollocs and channelers, kill said swordsman, repeat 3 times, die.

What doesn't add up (without the silly stretch of insanity not seen to date in the series):

That this guy who for the entire series has been competent, calculating, goal-oriented doesn't even stop to consider that LTT MIGHT not be there, espcially when he knows that Rand has to fight the DO. The taunts were good for about 20 pages. For the other 200 I felt like I was listening to a looped tape of "Old MacDonald Had a Farm" just like in my fraternity hazing days. Made me shiver.

With a full circle and a sa'angreal as powerful or more than Callandor, the last battle should have been done in about 10 seconds. He doesn't NEED to general. Just kill em all and the one guy left standing will be LTT (or, in actuality, nobody left standing - LTT isn't here *gasp*)

Does he actually ever take a step in any direction? If you aren't going to use your power in the fullest, how bout at least popping over to wherever the battle needs you most and killing all the lightsiders there?

All those fades, all those trollocs, all those sharans, all that Power-enhanced senses and THREE lone swordsmen get to him essentially unopposed in essentially the exact same way? Pshaw.

Speaking of that, when pressed by someone not LTT why not open a hole in the ground and swallow them - he already demonstrated that he is not honorable enough to have a fair fight.

In all I found him far too one-dimensional for what he had been built up to be. He was presented with FAR too much power and that could not be reconciled with the battle at hand - forcing the author(s) to have to hamstring him and diminish his guile and competence so that the tediously long last battle could play out.

I really found that Demandred, as written, ruined the Last Battle scene. Lost all of its plausibility for me.

I know what you mean, but had not been able to put my finger on it. My numbers are just off the top of my head guestimates, but in addition to himself, and his holy hand grenade of Antioch of a Sa'angrael, he boasted at least five to six hundred Ayyad.. at least... or so the book makes it seem. He could have kept his circle and his toy and should have been able to destroy the entire army. After all, Rand and a handful of Aes Sedai and Ashamen wipe out a hundred thousand trollocs AFTER being surprised. Rand destrys close to or at least that many by himself at Maradon. When you are using balefire as liberally as he was, and in the strength he had at his disposal, he should have been wiping out hundreds at a shot.. it says he was, it implies he was... but the good guys survive even though thier numbers should have quickly been depleted.

I can only assume that he was kept from much of the fighting by the need to manange the battle. Since he really did not care about the lives of his troops, as lond as the Light-side channalers were kept from uniting against him, it should have been gravy.

Also, as you pointed out, someone who was so cunning, thoughtful and meticulous the whole series, should not have lost it at the end and become so fixated to not relize that LTT was not there. If he had left the shadow spawn there, ahd taken the Sharans to SG, it would have been over.

As far as the Gawyn, Galad, and Lan getting through.. at least Gawyn had an excuse with the rings.

Sinistrum
01-16-2013, 12:41 PM
RJ took care to point out that the Truthspeaker is allowed to take extended holidays; that's what Semirhage was doing, and it didn't seem to be against protocol or anything.

How extended are we talking? I got a very strong sense that Min was about ready to slap the bejesus out of Tuon at just about every given moment where they were interacting. I can't imagine anyone tolerating those kind of working conditions for very long. Additionally, Anath/Semirhage wasn't a Doomseer. I would imagine that will play into just how long Tuon will let Min off the leash.

Terez
01-16-2013, 01:10 PM
How extended are we talking? I got a very strong sense that Min was about ready to slap the bejesus out of Tuon at just about every given moment where they were interacting. I can't imagine anyone tolerating those kind of working conditions for very long.
I think Tuon frustrates her, but that doesn't mean she will give up the chance to influence her. I don't remember how long it was; I can't remember the word Tuon used. It wasn't holiday or sabbatical but it was something along those lines.

SauceyBlueConfetti
01-16-2013, 01:25 PM
Referencing Anath's disappearances from the Tower:

Winter's Heart chapter 28:

She was "on retreat",

GonzoTheGreat
01-16-2013, 02:38 PM
Also, as you pointed out, someone who was so cunning, thoughtful and meticulous the whole series, should not have lost it at the end and become so fixated to not relize that LTT was not there. If he had left the shadow spawn there, ahd taken the Sharans to SG, it would have been over.
Heck, if he'd left the Trollocs where they were and had taken the Sharans to the other side of the field, then he could have squashed the forces of Light between them, and it would all have been over too. Anyone but a genius such as Demandrad would have seen that after an hour or so. (That was also basically Mat's plan, but because he had far fewer troops, he had more difficulty making it work.)

Toss the dice
01-16-2013, 03:10 PM
How extended are we talking? I got a very strong sense that Min was about ready to slap the bejesus out of Tuon at just about every given moment where they were interacting. I can't imagine anyone tolerating those kind of working conditions for very long. Additionally, Anath/Semirhage wasn't a Doomseer. I would imagine that will play into just how long Tuon will let Min off the leash.

If Min spends any more time with the Seanchan, it will almost certainly be of her own choice to help relations. Why is everyone assuming that Min is already committed to having to be Tuon's Truthspeaker when the last we see of her is at Moridin's funeral, surrounded by a bunch of Randlanders? What are they going to do, kidnap her?

If she doesn't want to go, she's not going. And unless she wants to help mend relationships or stave off a huge war, there is zero reason why she would want to do so.

Terez
01-16-2013, 03:13 PM
If Min spends any more time with the Seanchan, it will almost certainly be of her own choice to help relations. Why is everyone assuming that Min is already committed to having to be Tuon's Truthspeaker when the last we see of her is at Moridin's funeral, surrounded by a bunch of Randlanders?
Because Mat asked her nicely.

Davian93
01-16-2013, 03:14 PM
Heck, if he'd left the Trollocs where they were and had taken the Sharans to the other side of the field, then he could have squashed the forces of Light between them, and it would all have been over too. Anyone but a genius such as Demandrad would have seen that after an hour or so. (That was also basically Mat's plan, but because he had far fewer troops, he had more difficulty making it work.)

I'd imagine that Demandred thought there was a way to block such manuevers and that LTT being on the field, he would do so.

Not that it appears that Demandred ever did such blocking on his side of it all...which seems odd. There has to be some defense against traveling in a battle...other than DreamSpikes.

Ivhon
01-16-2013, 03:34 PM
I'd imagine that Demandred thought there was a way to block such manuevers and that LTT being on the field, he would do so.

Not that it appears that Demandred ever did such blocking on his side of it all...which seems odd. There has to be some defense against traveling in a battle...other than DreamSpikes.

How about riding a horse? Is there a defense against that? Or even a jump to the left...and then a step to the right.

Toss the dice
01-16-2013, 03:37 PM
Because Mat asked her nicely.

Are you being sarcastic?

My impression of Min's situation as Truthspeaker was that it was temporary, even though Tuon obviously wouldn't have considered it so. All throughout the fighting while Min was with Tuon, I figured it was temporary and a reluctant and necessary undertaking in order to both not be killed and to help ensure the Seanchan fight for the Light in the Last Battle. In my mind, that's what it was all about. It's the Last Battle, we're losing, things are desperate, and if Min has to act as Truthspeaker to Tuon over the duration of the fighting, so be it. If a miracle happens and the Light is lucky enough to win, then Min can work on getting away afterwards.

And then at the end of the book we see Min at "Rand's" funeral, surrounded by hundreds of Randlanders. And I don't recall any sort of agreement that Min made with ANYBODY that she would stay as Tuon's Truthspeaker long-term. Even if she had done so, I would have automatically assumed she was lying and saying what she needed to say in order to both continue living and help the Light. A reluctant and temporary captive, taking one for the team. There were even multiple passages that dealt with Min wanting to run away or get away from the Seanchan because they're insane.

Terez
01-16-2013, 03:45 PM
Are you being sarcastic?

My impression of Min's situation as Truthspeaker was that it was temporary...
I didn't get that impression at all.

Toss the dice
01-16-2013, 03:56 PM
I didn't get that impression at all.

I realize there's multiple ways to take that. I meant that Min thought it was temporary, as in that she intended on escaping sooner or later and was putting up with being Truthspeaker for the time being due to being able to influence the Seanchan over the course of the Last Battle. Namely, to ensure that they fight "alongside" the Randlanders instead of pulling back to Ebou Dar.

Obviously, Tuon doesn't think it's temporary. Min of course realizes Tuon's aims at a long-term relationship but has no desire to stick around any longer than she has to.

When I came to the funeral part, I was like, "Well, Min's service with the Seanchan is over." There's no way they could have forced her to come back or even find her if she wanted to evade them. And she clearly didn't enjoy being with the Seanchan...which is an understatement. The only "but" that came to mind is if Min might not reluctantly decide to remain as Truthspeaker in order to help forge relations or influence the Seanchan.

I don't remember any agreements Min made with Tuon. All I remember is Min saying what she needed to say at the time and Mat chiming in with sarcasm that annoyed her.

Sinistrum
01-16-2013, 05:04 PM
I think it's Mat's statements that made the arrangement seem less than voluntary on Min's behalf. Personally, I think Tuon is more than capable of sending assassins after Min is she were attempt to leave in the fashion you're describing Toss. And I think Min realizes that.

Toss the dice
01-16-2013, 05:06 PM
I think it's Mat's statements that made the arrangement seem less than voluntary on Min's behalf. Personally, I think Tuon is more than capable of sending assassins after Min is she were attempt to leave in the fashion you're describing Toss. And I think Min realizes that.

The assassins bit is a good point.

Sinistrum
01-16-2013, 05:09 PM
That's why I think it will take a few more years of working on getting Tuon to mellow out and also require Mat's help (another tempering influence) in order for her to get away. Remember, Min is invested in making sure people think Rand is dead. Going running to him with assassins on her heels isn't exactly the best way to accomplish that.

Lost One
01-16-2013, 05:36 PM
Heck, if he'd left the Trollocs where they were and had taken the Sharans to the other side of the field, then he could have squashed the forces of Light between them, and it would all have been over too. Anyone but a genius such as Demandrad would have seen that after an hour or so. (That was also basically Mat's plan, but because he had far fewer troops, he had more difficulty making it work.)

I was not considering that, even though you are right. Those are the tactical implications. In the strategic implications, the forces at the Merrilor are to A. Prevent them from spreading out, and B. Keep them away from the important fight a SG. As great as both a tactician and strategist as Demandred was supposed to be would have known this. That is why I said take the Sharans to SG. That was where the most important battle was going on. matter of fact, striking out of the Blight is done only to destroy the armies of the Light so that they cannot field thier full force at SG.

But Demandred cannot seem to grasp this, even though she should have been able to. None of his accolytes suggest that the Dragon was not there. It seemed like either he should have realized it, or something.. but he just went off the deep end

bigwil0024
01-16-2013, 05:43 PM
I think that was part of Demandrad's madness. He felt the last battle was about him and Lewis Therin facing off. And that the DR would show up because thats where he was just to finish it.

SauceyBlueConfetti
01-17-2013, 01:01 PM
I like being left in the dark (heh, pun intended) about a few fates.

I know fanservice is the word of the day right now but one if the biggest mysteries is unsolved: Gaidal Cain is still unknown. Personally I think Birgitte is being born to Melanie...nice conflict there of an archer born as Aiel. That would be fun to watch.

Ivhon
01-17-2013, 01:26 PM
I like being left in the dark (heh, pun intended) about a few fates.

I know fanservice is the word of the day right now but one if the biggest mysteries is unsolved: Gaidal Cain is still unknown. Personally I think Birgitte is being born to Melanie...nice conflict there of an archer born as Aiel. That would be fun to watch.

Aiel don't shoot bows?

It'd be even cooler if there were a TAR time quirk that took three months to send Birgitte into one of Elayne's kiddos. Talk about a role reversal...

Davian93
01-17-2013, 01:29 PM
Aiel don't shoot bows?

It'd be even cooler if there were a TAR time quirk that took three months to send Birgitte into one of Elayne's kiddos. Talk about a role reversal...

Ahh...they could name her Danae or something like that.

sleepinghour
01-17-2013, 02:09 PM
Personally I think Birgitte is being born to Melanie...nice conflict there of an archer born as Aiel. That would be fun to watch.

Melaine promised to name her twins after Min and Egwene. It would be ironic if Birgitte was reborn as "Min" and Egwene herself as..."Egwene." Sorilea did always want Egwene to return to them.

jana
01-17-2013, 02:14 PM
Melaine promised to name her twins after Min and Egwene. It would be ironic if Birgitte was reborn as "Min" and Egwene herself as..."Egwene." Sorilea did always want Egwene to return to them.

I've decided this is canon.

Dom
01-17-2013, 03:39 PM
I've decided this is canon.

RJ's last words was that souls joined at the moment of conception, and earlier he talked of an early foetal stage. Either way, Melaine's babies can't be the rebirth of anyone who died in AMOL.

sleepinghour
01-17-2013, 03:51 PM
RJ's last words was that souls joined at the moment of conception, and earlier he talked of an early foetal stage. Either way, Melaine's babies can't be the rebirth of anyone who died in AMOL.

I know RJ said that, but Birgitte's words still made it sound like her soul was going straight to someone about to be born at any second.

"I'm being reborn, Elayne," Birgitte whispered. "Now. Somewhere, a woman is preparing to give birth, and I will go to that body. It's happening."

Terez
01-17-2013, 04:06 PM
The only relevant quote I know of is where RJ said the soul enters the body at viability (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=319#36).

GonzoTheGreat
01-18-2013, 03:21 AM
I was not considering that, even though you are right. Those are the tactical implications. In the strategic implications, the forces at the Merrilor are to A. Prevent them from spreading out, and B. Keep them away from the important fight a SG. As great as both a tactician and strategist as Demandred was supposed to be would have known this. That is why I said take the Sharans to SG. That was where the most important battle was going on. matter of fact, striking out of the Blight is done only to destroy the armies of the Light so that they cannot field thier full force at SG.

But Demandred cannot seem to grasp this, even though she should have been able to. None of his accolytes suggest that the Dragon was not there. It seemed like either he should have realized it, or something.. but he just went off the deep end
Yeah, your idea only makes sense if you assume that Demandred knows that Rand/Lews Therin is not at Merrilor at all. But if he had known that, then Demandred wouldn't have been there either. And with his circle/sa'angreal combo, he would have blasted the forces of the Light away from their positions in less than a minute.

David Selig
01-18-2013, 08:34 AM
There wasn't a scene where we get Tam's reaction to being a future grandfather? Or to his son having kids with a different woman than Min he got introduced to as Ran's girlfriend in ToM...This sucks.

Unless I missed a scene, apparently Tam and Elayne met for the first time offscreen, which sucks too.

fionwe1987
01-18-2013, 08:57 AM
I've decided this is canon.
Melaine is blonde too, so Birgette could even look a little like herself.

But Egwene being born as baby Egwene is too cheesy. I think her soul is off trying to learn everything there is, sad about missing her friends, but quickly seeing that death is just another opportunity to learn more. She's probably apprenticed herself to some long dead soul already, and is working hard at being the Best Dead Soul in the Afterlife. :)

She's also secretly thankful she didn't have to spend a lifetime with Gawyn.

There's also the whacky idea that Egwene is Nakomi. That once dead, her Soul traveled back in time to save the Aiel, and the next thing she did was help Rand with the body swap. Frankly, the practical issues with this are many. But it would be kind of cool, if true. We had a lot of reason to believe Egwene would play a role in Rand's death. This would be a neat twist to make it so. And Egwene was very Moon Goddess-y, especially in her last moments. So the name would be a neat fit.

Dom
01-18-2013, 09:06 AM
Unless I missed a scene, apparently Tam and Elayne met for the first time offscreen, which sucks too.

Through the three books Brandon completely forgot Tam was Perrin's First Captain and commander of his forces. Tam should have been present in all the big meetings (he should even have been one of Perrin's five at Merrilor), but Brandon didn't have him there.

It's curious since Brandon says he is a big fan of Perrin, but he made quite a few continuity mistakes related to his KOD story line, like Tam losing his First Captain role, reversing the decisions made at Malden (the book ended with Perrin moving ahead and Tylee remaining behind at Malden, TGS had the opposite), etc.

ShadowbaneX
01-18-2013, 11:19 AM
How extended are we talking? I got a very strong sense that Min was about ready to slap the bejesus out of Tuon at just about every given moment where they were interacting. I can't imagine anyone tolerating those kind of working conditions for very long. Additionally, Anath/Semirhage wasn't a Doomseer. I would imagine that will play into just how long Tuon will let Min off the leash.

Well we can hope that a few years of Mat will soften her up a bit, Aviendha's future trip suggests that there was a chance that Tuon & the Aiel could come to a deal regarding the Aiel damane...and hopefully Tuon visiting her revered ancestor and getting a stern "granddaughter, I am really disappoint" speech from him might help move things along as well.

ShadowbaneX
01-18-2013, 11:41 AM
I think Min's been designated as a Holy Woman to the Seanchan. I think Tuon would be boned if she sent assassins after Min.