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Moridin al Thor
01-13-2013, 12:05 PM
Blah Blah Blah SO, did Elayne get raped by Mellar? THoughts?

Terez
01-13-2013, 12:42 PM
No. She was almost-raped, just as I predicted. ;) (Don't think your 'blah blah blah' is quite long enough.)

Moridin al Thor
01-13-2013, 01:58 PM
The first time I read the scene(s) I thought she had been raped. Second time through, not so sure. I do believe that there is enough time delay for her to be raped by Mellar. Elayne is being held down, second scene, states mellar kneeling by her again with knife drawn, after previous scene shows Mellar kneeling and drawing knife. Mellar moves medallion from Elayne's chest to forehead in second scene. How much time passes from first scene to second? Enough time for Elayne to be thought dead by Mat and fight sequence between Lan and Demandred. Is this just a missed edit/mistake in timing? Why does the Dreadlord and Mellar delay cutting the babies out of her womb? Only thing that makes sense to me is she was being raped by Mellar before the babies were cut out. Only thing that makes me hope this did not happen is matter of timing between Birgitte's death and horn sounding. Any of you guys (with connections) think this is a question worthy of Brandon? Would tie into heroes suffering losses personally with achieved victory (IMO). However, I really do not like the idea of Elayne being raped. Sure, it was ok I guess for Mogehdian(sp?), Graendal, Messana since they are darkfriends and ties into bad things happening to bad people, but come on! Elayne?!?! :mad::confused:

David Selig
01-13-2013, 03:51 PM
It didn't happen, thankfully.

AMOL, Ch. 40

“I . . . Oh, Light.” Elayne’s insides told her she’d still lost her Warder, and the pain of the bond breaking was not a rational thing. It didn’t matter that Birgitte stood before her. “Perhaps I should bond you again?”

“It would not work,”Birgitte said, waving her hand with a dismissive gesture. “Are you hurt?”

“Nothing but my pride.”

Thankfully this time the obligatory "a main female character gets captured" moments ended very quickly in all 3 cases (Faile, Egwene, Elayne).

Moridin al Thor
01-13-2013, 04:06 PM
It didn't happen, thankfully.



Thankfully this time the obligatory "a main female character gets captured" moments ended very quickly in all 3 cases (Faile, Egwene, Elayne).


That's what I'm hoping for, but why the "Mellar knelt beside Elayne unsheathing his knife.." line in both scenes? Why would he kneel beside her twice without doing anything in between? What about the whole "..but you my Queen, are mine.." from the first scene? How much time elapses? I know that Rand sees Elayne with a dreadlord preparing to "rip their babies" out of her, but nothing about Mellar raping her, so there is that. It just seems that there is too much time between her getting captured and nothing happening. It would seem that there is plenty of time for Mellar to have his way with Elayne between the fake guardsmen pronouncing her dead and the horn being blown. What about the "(Elayne) wouldn't give him the satisfaction of crying {sic}" Maybe her "pride being hurt" is a allegory for her being sexually assaulted? Am I reading too much into this? Or is this case of Elayne being raped "intuitively obvious" to only me?

probe907
01-13-2013, 05:40 PM
Get real. Jordan doesn't do rapes. And the children gave Elayne total immunity.

Terez
01-13-2013, 05:54 PM
Get real. Jordan doesn't do rapes.
Morgase, anyone? Also, it was described how her children did not, in fact, give her immunity.

Davian93
01-13-2013, 06:15 PM
Morgase, anyone? Also, it was described how her children did not, in fact, give her immunity.

I think he meant "rapes of pregnant women".

FWIW.

As obviously SH also raped several women.

probe907
01-13-2013, 06:42 PM
That description was a red herring. Elayne was carrying the little dragons, no way anything bad could have happened to her (unfortunately :( ). I might have made a mistake, though, I don't remember about Morgase. Did she get raped? The WoT encyclopedia doesn't mention anything. Almost-rape doesn't count. Compulsion doesn't quite count. And SH raping female Forsaken and BA Dreadlords doesn't count either, since the female Forsaken and Dreadlords are under the Shadow.

Davian93
01-13-2013, 06:43 PM
That description was a red herring. Elayne was carrying the little dragons, no way anything bad could have happened to her (unfortunately :( ). I might have made a mistake, though, I don't remember about Morgase. Did she get raped? Almost-rape doesn't count. And SH raping female Forsaken and BA Dreadlords doesn't count either, since the female Forsaken and Dreadlords are under the Shadow.

She was raped repeatedly by Eamon Valda...although it all happened off-screen.

That's the whole reason that Galad challenges Valda in the first place.

probe907
01-13-2013, 06:47 PM
She was raped repeatedly by Eamon Valda...although it all happened off-screen.

That's the whole reason that Galad challenges Valda in the first place.
OK! Thanks for correcting me.

Terez
01-13-2013, 07:04 PM
She was raped repeatedly by Eamon Valda...although it all happened off-screen.

That's the whole reason that Galad challenges Valda in the first place.
Not to mention Rahvin...and yes of course evil people get raped, but that's different. ;)

Davian93
01-13-2013, 07:09 PM
Not to mention Rahvin...and yes of course evil people get raped, but that's different. ;)

Good point on Rahvin...though his "rape" of Morgase was a bit less violent than Valda's I'd imagine.

Granted, rape is rape and all but Morgase didnt realize it was rape at the time as she was under heavy compulsion.

Terez
01-13-2013, 07:10 PM
That makes it worse, not better. He raped her body and her mind.

Davian93
01-13-2013, 07:11 PM
That makes it worse, not better. He raped her body and her mind.

I agree with that.

neurotopia
01-13-2013, 07:45 PM
Compulsion doesn't quite count.
If roofies count (and they do), Compulsion DEFINITELY counts.

And SH raping female Forsaken and BA Dreadlords doesn't count either, since the female Forsaken and Dreadlords are under the Shadow.

Yeah they probably deserved it. :confused:

probe907
01-13-2013, 07:47 PM
If roofies count (and they do), Compulsion DEFINITELY counts.


Yeah, on second thought, compulsion should count. I considered it sort of a super-seduction, but it's more than that. I wonder why the Lady Selene didn't compulse Rand. Maybe she tried and he resisted.

Terez
01-13-2013, 07:59 PM
She said she wanted to win him back without stooping to that. She said the same about Perrin.

CaraighanMaconar
01-13-2013, 08:18 PM
That description was a red herring. Elayne was carrying the little dragons, no way anything bad could have happened to her (unfortunately :( ). I might have made a mistake, though, I don't remember about Morgase. Did she get raped? The WoT encyclopedia doesn't mention anything. Almost-rape doesn't count. Compulsion doesn't quite count. And SH raping female Forsaken and BA Dreadlords doesn't count either, since the female Forsaken and Dreadlords are under the Shadow.

No, those things are all still rape. Doesn't make it not rape because it may feel justified in the eyes of many readers.

C.

Terez
01-13-2013, 08:22 PM
No, those things are all still rape.
Except for almost-rape.

CaraighanMaconar
01-13-2013, 08:23 PM
Except for almost-rape.

If you want to get technical like that.

C.

Terez
01-13-2013, 08:24 PM
It's what I do.

Dom
01-14-2013, 12:29 PM
She said she wanted to win him back without stooping to that. She said the same about Perrin.

Indeed. Lanfear always made clear she thought compulsion and co. were beneath her. That didn't stop many readers from coming up with compulsion theories or refusing to take her at her word (it even sparked a famous loony theory that Selene wasn't Lanfear...)

It's in part quite rational (she's largely right, from her perspective), in part derived from her own history/personality (Mierin Aronaille went very far in her demonstration she embraced the Shadow willingly... and she didn't wait for the sort of Forsaken persona the people would give her.. she custom-made her own that fitted her grand image of herself. I always thought she feared way too much she's ended up being named "The Rejected One" or "That nobody on Beidomon's team no one can remember the name of" or "That floozy who flaunted herself as LTT's arm for a while"), in part sheer competition with Graendal/Semirhage (in the sense that she believes she can seduce any man into her service, that can make any man not gay fall in love with her, and makes it a point of pride not to stoop to methods of those two who must force people).

Moridin and the DO weren't quite ignorant of all that, it's largely why Moridin made a point of showing he could force Lanfear to do things - an object lesson tailored just for her despite its public aspects, as part of the punishment was also stripping her altogether of this grand "Queen of the Night" persona she had invented for herself, throwing her back to her Mierin/underachiever days. Apparently, that also included stripping her of her "domain" by forbidding her to enter TAR except with direct permission from Moridin. It's only during AMOL, when he had largely lost any interest in her that she dared risk disobeying again (and she was still terrified whenever she felt his or the DO's attention on her).

Crispin's Crispian
01-14-2013, 12:35 PM
That's what I'm hoping for, but why the "Mellar knelt beside Elayne unsheathing his knife.." line in both scenes? Why would he kneel beside her twice without doing anything in between? What about the whole "..but you my Queen, are mine.." from the first scene? How much time elapses? I know that Rand sees Elayne with a dreadlord preparing to "rip their babies" out of her, but nothing about Mellar raping her, so there is that. It just seems that there is too much time between her getting captured and nothing happening. It would seem that there is plenty of time for Mellar to have his way with Elayne between the fake guardsmen pronouncing her dead and the horn being blown. What about the "(Elayne) wouldn't give him the satisfaction of crying {sic}" Maybe her "pride being hurt" is a allegory for her being sexually assaulted? Am I reading too much into this? Or is this case of Elayne being raped "intuitively obvious" to only me?
I thought he paused because they had to go fetch someone who knew how to put the babies in stasis for the trip to Shayol Ghul. I think if she was raped it would have been a bit more clear. I mean, you had flopping arms and beheaded channelers. I don't think "Mellar stood to buckle his belt" would have been too obscene at that point.

kabkaba
01-14-2013, 12:47 PM
What happened to Min's prediction of Elayne's babies/delivery being different? Maybe that she delivered prematurely because of the rape?

metaphor
01-14-2013, 01:19 PM
What happened to Min's prediction of Elayne's babies/delivery being different? Maybe that she delivered prematurely because of the rape?

She wasn't raped.
As for the viewing, it's just something that will happen after the end of the book. And it was about Aviendah, not Elayne.
Maybe because some of Aviendah's children will be of Rand in his new body?

Kurtz
01-14-2013, 01:20 PM
What happened to Min's prediction of Elayne's babies/delivery being different? Maybe that she delivered prematurely because of the rape?

FFS http://i661.photobucket.com/albums/uu332/IIJM/forum/uhup.gif

Weiramon
01-14-2013, 01:44 PM
(it even sparked a famous loony theory that Selene wasn't Lanfear...)



Pshaw. As if there were such. Next you will say it involved Saine Tarasind impersonating this Mierin woman.

Terez
01-14-2013, 01:53 PM
Thankfully this time the obligatory "a main female character gets captured" moments ended very quickly in all 3 cases (Faile, Egwene, Elayne).
Just saw this and figured I would add that Aviendha also got captured, by the red-veils. Cadsuane stopped hearts and things.

Tollingtoy
01-14-2013, 05:04 PM
Why did Hanlon say that the Dark One wanted Elayne's babies? What was he planning on using them for?

kamarile
01-14-2013, 05:12 PM
Maybe he was just planning on saving them for a rainy day? You never know when babies might come in handy.

Jalyn
01-14-2013, 05:16 PM
Maybe he was just planning on saving them for a rainy day? You never know when babies might come in handy.

It's really too bad that Elayne couldn't guess his name...

GonzoTheGreat
01-15-2013, 03:38 AM
Just saw this and figured I would add that Aviendha also got captured, by the red-veils. Cadsuane stopped hearts and things.
Then again, Min got captured by Fortuona, and hasn't managed to get away, yet.

Ishara
01-15-2013, 04:56 PM
Why did Hanlon say that the Dark One wanted Elayne's babies? What was he planning on using them for?

For the same reason Isam was kept alive and his mother wasn't. Political leverage, and also a strong tool for the future.

GonzoTheGreat
01-16-2013, 04:02 AM
For the same reason Isam was kept alive and his mother wasn't. Political leverage, and also a strong tool for the future.
All of which seem to be not all that relevant if the world ends within the next few hours. And, seeing as how the DO wouldn't be around to take advantage of the kids for centuries if he lost, I am not quite sure that he would have gained anything of this type one way or another.

Distracting Rand, on the other hand, could have worked. The Shadow had Alanna to play with the Warder bond, and those kids would have given a second line of attack. The Ilyena Gambit had been tried in the previous Age, there wasn't much point to trying that again, so Elayne was not useful.

Ishara
01-16-2013, 11:09 AM
All of which seem to be not all that relevant if the world ends within the next few hours. And, seeing as how the DO wouldn't be around to take advantage of the kids for centuries if he lost, I am not quite sure that he would have gained anything of this type one way or another.

Distracting Rand, on the other hand, could have worked. The Shadow had Alanna to play with the Warder bond, and those kids would have given a second line of attack. The Ilyena Gambit had been tried in the previous Age, there wasn't much point to trying that again, so Elayne was not useful.

But I think we saw in their exchange that the DO winning wouldn't have meant annihilation, it would have meant a dark and terrible world - in which case, the babies would play a role.

It certainly would have been a distraction, as would Alanna dying (how DID she get there?!), but that was not at the order of the DO - rather, done on his behalf. Do we know who was commanding Hanlon/ Mellar at that point?

SauceyBlueConfetti
01-16-2013, 11:23 AM
But I think we saw in their exchange that the DO winning wouldn't have meant annihilation,

Agreed. Most darkfriends and Chosen believed the DO would REMAKE the world and they would have power & immortality---that was the whole point of joining. Only Moridin believed, or was promised, an end to everything. Or was the only one smart enough to recognize it was even an option.

The DO's visions to Rand were to dishearten him, to bring him over, to crack a hole in his thoughts and gain a little edge. The images were a tool, not the actual planned outcome.

An end to everything was the fear of many in the world, but a continuation was also feared...a continuation of the world where Evil held sway. Neither idea was clearly the 100% confirmed goal of the DO...he didn't really share that. He just wanted to defeat Rand and break free.

GonzoTheGreat
01-16-2013, 11:24 AM
But I think we saw in their exchange that the DO winning wouldn't have meant annihilation, it would have meant a dark and terrible world - in which case, the babies would play a role.
If the Father of Lies was trustworthy. Which still isn't something I really believe.

It certainly would have been a distraction, as would Alanna dying (how DID she get there?!), but that was not at the order of the DO - rather, done on his behalf. Do we know who was commanding Hanlon/ Mellar at that point?
Alanna was brought there by Moridin, of course.
Hanlon/Mellar had orders to report to M'Hael, was was one of the Chosen. Whether that one was acting on his own here or following orders from Moridin we don't know. If Egwene hadn't killed him, then he would undoubtedly have divulged this (and many other things of interest).

Lost One
01-16-2013, 01:03 PM
I think he meant "rapes of pregnant women".

FWIW.

As obviously SH also raped several women.

They Viewing only said her babies would be born healthy. Pregnancy does not protect agains the immoral. Afterall, meller had previously beat a pregnant girl in the head with a rock and dumped ber down a well.

I did not really notice the twin moments that had been mentioned such as talking about him leaning down twice.. I did not even realise she was being held down, I just thought she was being held. I do not think it happened.. she was too composed afterwards, but I could be wrong. I think that it was just a laspe back to provide continuity for the event.. being saved int he nick of time... again

Daekyras
01-17-2013, 06:55 AM
Get real. Jordan doesn't do rapes. And the children gave Elayne total immunity.

Morgase already stated.
It might be prudent to take into accout the ladies captured and taken gaishan by the Shaido..

And of course there is Mat.:(

KilMichaelMcC
01-17-2013, 08:29 AM
All that happened to Elayne in the time between when Hanlon/Mellar captures her and when we cut back to the scene is that she was tied up and gagged.