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View Full Version : AMotL Rant *spoiler alert*


brokencrownedking
01-13-2013, 04:48 PM
First off let me say I am still in a bit of shock at the fact that the Wheel of Time is over... Now let me move on to why I am left with feelings of remorse over the way it has ended. First off I want to say I am VERY appreciative of Brandon Sanderson for completing the series, that said I am also incredibly angry with him, ToR and Harriet for allowing this book to be released as is. There are too many discrepancies, too many times where the characters are not being the people we have come to know and love, far too many loose ends and the ending of the book left me feeling angry, not fulfilled as I had hoped it would. I will go over, in detail, below why I feel this way;

Thom & Moiraine Romance: It felt awkward when it was introduced in the previous book and this awkwardness was exacerbated by it getting nearly 0 limelight in aMotL. Thom is reduced in the plot to an honorary guard composing a ballad (That we never get to hear) which disturbed me as he was one of the original group to leave Emond's Field and I expected a larger role for him in the Last Battle.

Trollocks: Where as it makes sense that there would be millions of Trollocks attacking all across the land what didn't make sense was the repetitive descriptions of them, the constant focus on them charging and the going over and over that they were eating the corpses. Half the book is dedicated to what Trollocks are doing in a given battle, not how our characters are reacting to this, but directly to them charging, running, dying, killing etc etc. We all have had these descriptions drilled into our heads and I feel that the time spent on this subject could have been better spent merely talking about overall battle tactics, the thought process of the people experiencing it and the channelers fights.

Androl: This is the biggest flaw in the story in my opinion, Androl destroys TONS of shadowspawn with lava from the heart of Dragonmount in Andor but then never tries the feat on the Fields of Merrilor... tide chainging, hugely successful stratagem just thrown out for no reason. He kills a bunch of channelers by turning their weaves against them via Travelling Portals and never uses this tactic again. He could just have made massive gates that blocked entire fronts of the battle because shadow-spawn die instantly from passing through. Too many holes here.

Logain: His glory was helping children and gaining the like of the small folk? Thats it!? He becomes this power hungry guy with no compassion for others or the women he bonded though that wasn't the picture that was left with us. He knows how to make deathgates (watched Rand and made some) and yet he never uses them or even thinks to teach them to Androl who would be god with them. He also seems to have no gratitude to those that saved him and acts all upset that he isn't the Dragon Reborn even though that hurtle had been cleared books ago. He also never has a problem with the fact that Androl is running around with a Red Ajah member.

Demandred: He was in Shara and all those channelers had been in his control this whole time? And he wanted to face Lew Therin on the battlefield... so why hadn't he in any of the numerous times Lews was on the field with corrupted Asha'Man? At those times the M'Hael would have been under his command and he would have known. He was smart enough to know that Lews Therin HAD to go to Shayol Ghul in order to confront the dark one and should have went to that battle front after not finding him in Merrilor. Also, the Bao the Wyld thing seemed like a weak attempt to appease us that NOTHING about his cover identity had been known up until then.

Gawyn: I felt this was a particular failure of the book, Gawyn the brash youth had been finally quelled in the previous books and then they have him go against this wisdom he gained for no reason other than to kill him off. Gawyn had faced channelers and failed before, Egwene had made it clear to him that she could handle the forsaken in one on one fights AND he had just promised to follow Egwene in all things as long as he got to protect her. HE left her alone, in the middle of a war just to attack a target that he had no hope of defeating. The fact that he put on those rings and they did nearly nothing for him in his battle vs Demandred was in itself disappointing. I think having three different people (gawyn, galad and Lan) all commit to the EXACT same course of action was repetitive and just plain bad writing. Also the assassins were in the Tower for weeks and didn't die from the rings... so it obviously is a long run thing.

Galad: Why did we spend so much time seeing Galad grow as a person, leader and sibling just to see him commit a brash, emotion filled and really stupid move as attacking a forsaken? After seeing that Gawyn had been mangled for trying. He is a logical, cold and honest individual that would not have been overwhelmed by emotion at Gawyn's death he would have done what was right. He would have wanted revenge, like he had for Morgase, but he would not have jeopardized the legacy of the Children so easily. His end did not sit well with me and I didn't particularly like him as a character in the first place.

Morgase: NOT IN THE WHOLE BOOK! She is mentioned by others but we never get anything from her. She was a major character and a POV and she is just left to rot on the sidelines while we read about what some no-name Aes Sedai are up to.

Siuan & Bryne: First off ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!! These two receive SO MUCH TIME in the books that to kill them in such a nonchalant and callous way was foolhardy. Siuan, awesome and resourceful Siuan, is killed by a normal fireball in seconds while Min is looking away, no descriptors, just suddenly dead with no omens around her head. No final words, no heroic acts just wham, gone. Bryne goes rage mode and we don't even get to see that, he just is found dead and some soldiers say he went crazy. They should have went down together and in a blaze of glory in my honest opinion.

Egwene: Poor Egwene, I died a little inside when she went. The greatest of all Amyrlins to date commits suicide after discovering a new weave. She had made it clear in the last books that she understood that the Amyrlin was a symbol of the Tower and could not be allowed to throw herself away like this. I know that Gawyn had just died but bonding Lielwhin made it seem like she intended to keep on keeping on. She didnt even try to be tactical, she just decided to commit suicide having NO idea what the new weave would do if she overdrew power to use it. Also, this is just a gripe of my own but of all the original people to leave Emond's Field only she dies. This is a depressing way to end things for the Emond's Fielders... just doesn't sit right with me.

Tuon: So this was one of the most awkward and weird portions of the book, when Mat and Tuon meet up again. More time is spent on Mat sneaking through the palace and describing the garden than him and Tuon spend talking, and considering that she LOVED to ask him questions and talk to him in previous books that felt wierd. Then she decides to make love right there and let Mat lay there sleeping through the morning even though she is usually very obsessed with matters of state and station she lounges next to him waiting for him to awake. Then Rand shows up and says all of 5 words to her while Mat and him have this awkward pissing contest over who has done more for the world. Then she agrees to sign a document without any real persuasion to do so or even a formal meeting (which she had seemed obsessed with) Rand YIELDS to her demands immediately without even trying though he had just spent the better part of a day arguing with people he actually loved and cherished. This whole part felt forced. Also I had hoped to get another look at Elaida as a Damane to tie her story off.

Harnan & Vanin: Why would they have run off? It makes no sense, if they were lifting some tabac they wouldnt have grabbed the horn and then acted like they were in big trouble. Vanin would have made up some excuses or something, allowed himself to be taken prisoner to prove his innocence. They would not have run off into the Blight alone, makes no sense at all. Also to come and release prisoners instead of going to Mat made little sense either as they didn't have heroic bone in their bodies.

Moghedian: Once again, makes no sense. She would have fled the scene as soon as Demandred died, not take his place out in the open battlefield. Then to be lingering around after the fact and not notice a Sul'Dam ( they wear bright colors) coming up on her is just bad writing. She should have been the one pulling strings on the from Tel'aran'rhiod Generals instead of Graendal as it was more her style and would have given her a useful role in the fight instead of just suddenly showing up late fight for no reason other than to tie her story off.

Graendal: Started strong, with being turned to Hessalam and her anger over the ugliness of the form. Then it sputters as she jumps around Tel'aran'rhiod messing with minds doing Compulsion through dreams, this made little sense, why hadn't she done this before? She could have defeated Perrin easily if Balwer or others were corrupted similarly. Gains strength again at the end with the Compulsion of Rhuarc (only death that made any sense in the book in my opinion) and her battle with Aviendha.

Mat&Fain: Mat went from the Mat that wanted to save everyone from the fire to just gonna let everyone burn pretty fast. Fain... he killed him with the Knife... the Knife that COULDN'T HURT FAIN. This was made clear OVER and OVER that the knife had no ill effect on him and yet here at the end Mat is able to kill him in one blow with it and then the knife just disappears into Fains corpse. Was terrible, terrible ending for Fain (who got all of two pages in whole book) and the corrupted Trollocks thing was such a gimmicky cheese filled idea, oh no! Trollock zombies! That were slower and stupider than a normal Trollock... real intimidating. Horrbile way to end a character that had been in the books since the beginning.

Rand: I LOVED Rand's story right up until the last few chapters. Then I was more disappointed with Brandon Sanderson than I thought I could be. First off his "battle" with the Dark One was anti-climatic, there was no real feeling of struggle or chance of loss, there was no real trials, it was merely him imaging stuff while the Dark One did so in return. Then he is suddenly spit out of the Dark Ones Prison for no reason that is apparent and wins because he somehow had planned for Morridin being in the chamber, having the Callandor, using it to draw the True Source, releasing Moiraine and Nynaeve from the circle and having them take control of him. This "foresight" made no sense whatsoever, how could he have decided to gamble all of existence on such a remote string of events. Rand KNEW he was going to die. Was POSITIVE about it and yet somehow he made plans to hide his identity after the fact with Alivia. I will get to the epilogue below.

Releasing Bonds: This is too convenient now at the end of the series to just pull out of the hat. Why wouldn't EVERY sister who thought she was about to die do what Alanna did? Why did they make such a big deal out of it in previous books? Felt this was a bit to convenient for making things easier to tie up at the end.

Balefire: Everyone, even the Forsaken, seem afraid of using it and yet in the last book they go willy nilly with it, not a care in the world. I mean from their perspective the Last Battle was the beginning of a Forsaken made world and the excuse that "it was the Last Battle" doesnt sit well with me.

Darkhounds: They show up at Shayol Ghul but not any other battle where they would have made a huge difference. As a matter of fact Darkhounds got left out of the books entirely after Jordan died until the very last fight at Thakkan'dar. And somehow Perrins hammer can kill them even though it was clearly stated that ONLY balefire could.

Draghkar: Used all of once in whole Last Battle, the Dark Ones arial attackers are used once and all they do is drop among camp to eat reg followers. They are a huge advantage in a war situation, something to counter the Seanchan Raken and yet they are never involved with the main fighting. Huge oversight.

Blight Monsters: They are all creatures of the Dark Ones and yet he doesn't make use of them, at all. I expected worms to be the biggest problem for the battle of Thakkan'dar and they were a no show even though they are attracted to noise and battle according to previous books. The battle lasted weeks and yet they never show up, not once.
Male A'dam: Never plays a role in the Last Battle though such a big portion of the plot centered around this item and the fact that it had been copied.

Artur Hawkwing: Mat asks him to talk to Tuon, could have been a REALLY interesting scene and it is just dropped from story.

Deaths in General: I'm all for plot twists but this was just depressing, the people we had been preparing to lose in the Last Battle (Lan and Rand) live while people no one thought would die there (Egwene and Siuan) do. Lan wanted death and has not much more to offer the world other than rebuilding a nation that has been dead for a lifetime. Rand expected to be a martyr for the world. Egwene was to be the greatest Amyrlin to ever live and she was Amyrlin for about 8 months. Siuan had survived so many trials to just be nonchalantly slain at the end. The only reason I feel these characters were killed was to kill SOMEONE off. Why not Talmanes, why not Morgase, why not Redarm officers, why not Elyas or Silviana? These would have fulfilled the need for deaths and not have touched characters like Siuan who had been so many chapters of POV.

THE EPILOGUE: ARE. YOU. SERIOUS. We get all of a paragraph explaining the situation of Mat, Perrin, Nynaeve that doesn't even tell us what the results of all this devastation is, just basically goes and they were sad and burned Rand's (Morridins) body. Then Rand isn't dead, has planned to flee being the Dragon Reborn, flee from all the people suffering because he died, flee from responsibility, his father, his children and the victory he had wanted. He decides to run off and EXPLORE!? This man that had carried the weight of the world on his shoulders, had felt responsible for every living being, had faced his own martyrdom, just walks away. HE then wonders which ONE of his wives would follow him as if he didn't even care. He uses some mystical new power that allows him to channel without channeling and rides off into the sunset. This did not seem like the Rand I spent years of my life getting to know. This did not leave me with a happy feeling, it left me feeling as though Brandon Sanderson and Harriet had NO IDEA who Rand was AT ALL.

The Wheel of Time is my FAVORITE book series of all time. It has kept me happy when grey skies threatened to ruin my life, it has helped me through some tough times and has always left me feeling inspired. This book left me angry, just downright full of rage that someone molested the story I loved so much. The last two book gave me hope that this wouldn't happen and then I feel like Brandon Sanderson just unloaded the taint onto my soul. I hope you regret your decisions to ruin this ending for the rest of your life Mr Sanderson, I know I will.

connabard
01-13-2013, 05:19 PM
The Dagger had no ill effect on Fain, yeah, but a dagger stabbing someone is still a dagger stabbing someone.
Also, nonchalant deaths from people like Siuan and Garen give a sense of realism to the story, IMO, as in a REAL war, it would happen just like that. In the blink of an eye. Granted we are a reader and have the ability of omnipresence but if there was a scene devoted to a character dying like Egwene for every death, that would get draining and repetitive.

Davian93
01-13-2013, 05:22 PM
Okay, I will respond to your wall of text.

First of all, welcome to Theoryland, we are happy you found us even if its at the very end of this whole thing. I hope you stick around and contribute...very impressive first post BTW (in length at least)...so here goes:

Thom & Moiraine Romance: It felt awkward when it was introduced in the previous book and this awkwardness was exacerbated by it getting nearly 0 limelight in aMotL. Thom is reduced in the plot to an honorary guard composing a ballad (That we never get to hear) which disturbed me as he was one of the original group to leave Emond's Field and I expected a larger role for him in the Last Battle.

To be fair, this was hinted at as early as TDR and even earlier...and foreshadowed by Thom obsessing over her letter to him for several books. I thought it was poorly written but whatever.

Androl: This is the biggest flaw in the story in my opinion, Androl destroys TONS of shadowspawn with lava from the heart of Dragonmount in Andor but then never tries the feat on the Fields of Merrilor... tide chainging, hugely successful stratagem just thrown out for no reason. He kills a bunch of channelers by turning their weaves against them via Travelling Portals and never uses this tactic again. He could just have made massive gates that blocked entire fronts of the battle because shadow-spawn die instantly from passing through. Too many holes here.

I despised his entire plotline so I cant argue this too much. I didnt care for the ridiculous new weaves that kept being invented and you made a good point about him not using them again...odd that.

Logain: His glory was helping children and gaining the like of the small folk? Thats it!? He becomes this power hungry guy with no compassion for others or the women he bonded though that wasn't the picture that was left with us. He knows how to make deathgates (watched Rand and made some) and yet he never uses them or even thinks to teach them to Androl who would be god with them. He also seems to have no gratitude to those that saved him and acts all upset that he isn't the Dragon Reborn even though that hurtle had been cleared books ago. He also never has a problem with the fact that Androl is running around with a Red Ajah member.

Logain was brutally tortured to the point of nearly breaking...that seriously messed him up along the lines of what Rand went through with the box in LoC. Makes sense that he'd have some issues for a bit after that. His greatness was realizing that he needed to be a servant of the people like the AS of old so he could be a true leader again. It could have been executed a bit better but it was a good storyline.

Demandred: He was in Shara and all those channelers had been in his control this whole time? And he wanted to face Lew Therin on the battlefield... so why hadn't he in any of the numerous times Lews was on the field with corrupted Asha'Man? At those times the M'Hael would have been under his command and he would have known. He was smart enough to know that Lews Therin HAD to go to Shayol Ghul in order to confront the dark one and should have went to that battle front after not finding him in Merrilor. Also, the Bao the Wyld thing seemed like a weak attempt to appease us that NOTHING about his cover identity had been known up until then.

Too much buildup for what happened with him. I will say that Demandred at least lived up to his reputation of awesomeness with basically battling Mat to a draw strategically and gutting Gawyn like a pig and defeating Galad, another great blademaster. Turns out he was a bit nutso...who knew. I wish they had built up the Shara plot a bit better but it wasnt that bad.

Gawyn: I felt this was a particular failure of the book, Gawyn the brash youth had been finally quelled in the previous books and then they have him go against this wisdom he gained for no reason other than to kill him off. Gawyn had faced channelers and failed before, Egwene had made it clear to him that she could handle the forsaken in one on one fights AND he had just promised to follow Egwene in all things as long as he got to protect her. HE left her alone, in the middle of a war just to attack a target that he had no hope of defeating. The fact that he put on those rings and they did nearly nothing for him in his battle vs Demandred was in itself disappointing. I think having three different people (gawyn, galad and Lan) all commit to the EXACT same course of action was repetitive and just plain bad writing. Also the assassins were in the Tower for weeks and didn't die from the rings... so it obviously is a long run thing.

Gawyn died as he lived...like a whiny beyotch.

Galad: Why did we spend so much time seeing Galad grow as a person, leader and sibling just to see him commit a brash, emotion filled and really stupid move as attacking a forsaken? After seeing that Gawyn had been mangled for trying. He is a logical, cold and honest individual that would not have been overwhelmed by emotion at Gawyn's death he would have done what was right. He would have wanted revenge, like he had for Morgase, but he would not have jeopardized the legacy of the Children so easily. His end did not sit well with me and I didn't particularly like him as a character in the first place.

I would have liked to see more but Galad was very very close to Gawyn and he thought he had a good chance of defeating ANYONE with the sword given that he never ever lost a fight. Demandred and Lan were probably the only two people in the world that could defeat him with the blade. (and Rand with two hands thanks to LTT's skills)

Morgase: NOT IN THE WHOLE BOOK! She is mentioned by others but we never get anything from her. She was a major character and a POV and she is just left to rot on the sidelines while we read about what some no-name Aes Sedai are up to.

I disagree that she was a major character. At best, she was a tertiary character that got a few POVs to push a couple subplots along for a while. Her story ended when she reunited with Gawyn at the end of ToM. You have to remember that this was originally 1 big book divided in thirds. She got plenty of face time in the "final" novel...she just didnt get any in the final 3rd of that final novel.

Siuan & Bryne: First off ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!! These two receive SO MUCH TIME in the books that to kill them in such a nonchalant and callous way was foolhardy. Siuan, awesome and resourceful Siuan, is killed by a normal fireball in seconds while Min is looking away, no descriptors, just suddenly dead with no omens around her head. No final words, no heroic acts just wham, gone. Bryne goes rage mode and we don't even get to see that, he just is found dead and some soldiers say he went crazy. They should have went down together and in a blaze of glory in my honest opinion

I agree...weak sauce, very weak sauce. You're not taking that sauce to the county fair. It was almost as if Brandon was told he had to kill them off and didnt know how to do it.

Egwene: Poor Egwene, I died a little inside when she went. The greatest of all Amyrlins to date commits suicide after discovering a new weave. She had made it clear in the last books that she understood that the Amyrlin was a symbol of the Tower and could not be allowed to throw herself away like this. I know that Gawyn had just died but bonding Lielwhin made it seem like she intended to keep on keeping on. She didnt even try to be tactical, she just decided to commit suicide having NO idea what the new weave would do if she overdrew power to use it. Also, this is just a gripe of my own but of all the original people to leave Emond's Field only she dies. This is a depressing way to end things for the Emond's Fielders... just doesn't sit right with me.

Completely disagree. Egwene left the Two Rivers for adventure and glory and got the best death in the series and the most meaningful one. The only question I have is whether or not anyone saw the weave so its not a one time thing. If not, it makes her an even more impressive figure in this book. This coming from someone who pretty much despised her since LoC.

Tuon: So this was one of the most awkward and weird portions of the book, when Mat and Tuon meet up again. More time is spent on Mat sneaking through the palace and describing the garden than him and Tuon spend talking, and considering that she LOVED to ask him questions and talk to him in previous books that felt wierd. Then she decides to make love right there and let Mat lay there sleeping through the morning even though she is usually very obsessed with matters of state and station she lounges next to him waiting for him to awake. Then Rand shows up and says all of 5 words to her while Mat and him have this awkward pissing contest over who has done more for the world. Then she agrees to sign a document without any real persuasion to do so or even a formal meeting (which she had seemed obsessed with) Rand YIELDS to her demands immediately without even trying though he had just spent the better part of a day arguing with people he actually loved and cherished. This whole part felt forced. Also I had hoped to get another look at Elaida as a Damane to tie her story off.

Yup, yup and yup. Even worse, Rand agreeing to that 3/5th compromise with the damane almost guarantees that his Peace will be shattered eventually. There is zero chance the Aiel wont demand their Wise Ones back eventually. Either Mat makes Tuon change her mind or there will be war. I agree with you completely here.

Harnan & Vanin: Why would they have run off? It makes no sense, if they were lifting some tabac they wouldnt have grabbed the horn and then acted like they were in big trouble. Vanin would have made up some excuses or something, allowed himself to be taken prisoner to prove his innocence. They would not have run off into the Blight alone, makes no sense at all. Also to come and release prisoners instead of going to Mat made little sense either as they didn't have heroic bone in their bodies.

I agree again...it was a stupid Red Herring by Brandon...very poorly done.

Moghedian: Once again, makes no sense. She would have fled the scene as soon as Demandred died, not take his place out in the open battlefield. Then to be lingering around after the fact and not notice a Sul'Dam ( they wear bright colors) coming up on her is just bad writing. She should have been the one pulling strings on the from Tel'aran'rhiod Generals instead of Graendal as it was more her style and would have given her a useful role in the fight instead of just suddenly showing up late fight for no reason other than to tie her story off.

Yup, definitely out of character for the Spider to hang around. She definitely would have fled/hid ASAP.

Rand: I LOVED Rand's story right up until the last few chapters. Then I was more disappointed with Brandon Sanderson than I thought I could be. First off his "battle" with the Dark One was anti-climatic, there was no real feeling of struggle or chance of loss, there was no real trials, it was merely him imaging stuff while the Dark One did so in return. Then he is suddenly spit out of the Dark Ones Prison for no reason that is apparent and wins because he somehow had planned for Morridin being in the chamber, having the Callandor, using it to draw the True Source, releasing Moiraine and Nynaeve from the circle and having them take control of him. This "foresight" made no sense whatsoever, how could he have decided to gamble all of existence on such a remote string of events. Rand KNEW he was going to die. Was POSITIVE about it and yet somehow he made plans to hide his identity after the fact with Alivia. I will get to the epilogue below.

The only thing I will say here is that RJ would have handled that Confrontation a bit better than Brandon. Oh well. Also, Caddy demanded he not go into the battle knowing he would die so he made contingency plans as a result of that demand by her.

Releasing Bonds: This is too convenient now at the end of the series to just pull out of the hat. Why wouldn't EVERY sister who thought she was about to die do what Alanna did? Why did they make such a big deal out of it in previous books? Felt this was a bit to convenient for making things easier to tie up at the end.

They dont release it because they dont usually have time to think about it as their death is sudden. I believe there is an interview quote from RJ that states that AS that know they are about to die will release their warder/warders.

Mat&Fain: Mat went from the Mat that wanted to save everyone from the fire to just gonna let everyone burn pretty fast. Fain... he killed him with the Knife... the Knife that COULDN'T HURT FAIN. This was made clear OVER and OVER that the knife had no ill effect on him and yet here at the end Mat is able to kill him in one blow with it and then the knife just disappears into Fains corpse. Was terrible, terrible ending for Fain (who got all of two pages in whole book) and the corrupted Trollocks thing was such a gimmicky cheese filled idea, oh no! Trollock zombies! That were slower and stupider than a normal Trollock... real intimidating. Horrbile way to end a character that had been in the books since the beginning.

Mat could have stabbed him with any knife there...as he stabbed him in the heart/chest which is a deadly wound regardless. The body rotted away because of the corruption inherent in Fain, not because of the dagger.

Artur Hawkwing: Mat asks him to talk to Tuon, could have been a REALLY interesting scene and it is just dropped from story

Do you really want Brandon writing that scene? Really???

Deaths in General: I'm all for plot twists but this was just depressing, the people we had been preparing to lose in the Last Battle (Lan and Rand) live while people no one thought would die there (Egwene and Siuan) do. Lan wanted death and has not much more to offer the world other than rebuilding a nation that has been dead for a lifetime. Rand expected to be a martyr for the world. Egwene was to be the greatest Amyrlin to ever live and she was Amyrlin for about 8 months. Siuan had survived so many trials to just be nonchalantly slain at the end. The only reason I feel these characters were killed was to kill SOMEONE off. Why not Talmanes, why not Morgase, why not Redarm officers, why not Elyas or Silviana? These would have fulfilled the need for deaths and not have touched characters like Siuan who had been so many chapters of POV.

We knew from Min's viewings that Lan was completely safe as he was going to rebuild the Seven Towers. I agree that hte Light should have lost more major characters but that is simply not RJ's way. He was never GRRM or even JK Rowling.

On the epilogue, I completely and utterly disagree. I thought it was perfect and probably the 2nd best scene in any of the books outside of the Prologue to tEotW. Rand did his bit for god and country and wants to go live his life. His favorite book (mentioned a bunch of times very early on) was The Adventures of Jain Farstrider. He even named his horse in TSR after Jain's horse. Rand did everything and more for humanity...now its time for Rand time. His wives will follow him shortly enough most likely. As for the rest of the aftermath, meh, that's for speculation. The story ends with the last battle, nothing more. I liked that it was short and not a LotRs type ending. Also, RJ, not Brandon wrote 98% of that epilogue so blame him if you hate it, not Brandon. Brandon added the Cadsuane scene but the rest is pure RJ (how can you not tell from the prose?)

Cheers and welcome again.

Licorice
01-13-2013, 05:25 PM
I actually agree with most of this.
I''m glad I read the book, and thought it was extremely well done considering the original author was dead. But, like you said, the characters seemed ...off. Especially during Rand's 'death'. I would liked to have seen Perrin and Mat sobbing, or something like it. I felt there was a disappointing proportion between battles and actual plot during this one. It seemed like everything we'd ever known in the series was being cramed together, the important parts getting as much stagetime as everything else.
I did think Egwene's death was rather heroic, as she knew she was burned out anyway and she had a chance to somewhat heal the land. But Gareth Bryne's overlooked death bugged me.

Davian93
01-13-2013, 05:30 PM
I actually agree with most of this.
I''m glad I read the book, and thought it was extremely well done considering the original author was dead. But, like you said, the characters seemed ...off. Especially during Rand's 'death'. I would liked to have seen Perrin and Mat sobbing, or something like it. I felt there was a disappointing proportion between battles and actual plot during this one. It seemed like everything we'd ever known in the series was being cramed together, the important parts getting as much stagetime as everything else.
I did think Egwene's death was rather heroic, as she knew she was burned out anyway and she had a chance to somewhat heal the land. But Gareth Bryne's overlooked death bugged me.

On Mat and Perrin not being that super upset...they might have gotten over it a bit because they "knew" he was dead the moment they found out he was the Dragon Reborn in TGH....as everyone "knew" that the Dragon Reborn dies to save humanity. Probably made it easier to cope with it knowing that.

I agree it felt off but then its felt "off" since Brandon took over. RJ had a very unique voice and Brandon himself stated he couldnt imitate it perfectly.

At least it was finished and in decent form.

probe907
01-13-2013, 05:37 PM
Good rant. I agree with practically everything. And yet, the Wheel and the Pattern are neither good nor evil, they just ARE, and in a similar way aMoL has some bad sides but it also has some good sides, and at least it IS... ;)

KyleLitke
01-13-2013, 10:31 PM
I'll hit a few of the points that I disagree with.

Thom & Moiraine Romance: It felt awkward when it was introduced in the previous book and this awkwardness was exacerbated by it getting nearly 0 limelight in aMotL. Thom is reduced in the plot to an honorary guard composing a ballad (That we never get to hear) which disturbed me as he was one of the original group to leave Emond's Field and I expected a larger role for him in the Last Battle.

I can understand where you felt it was awkward, I got that feeling at times too, but it was hinted at since the beginning practically. And as for a larger role, he's never really been shown to be an amazing fighter or a tactical genius. While he didn't get much screen time in the books, his actual role saved the day essentially, as he did kill five black sisters that probably could have done some serious damage with Rand not moving, particularly if Moiraine or Nynaeve bought their disguises.

Logain: His glory was helping children and gaining the like of the small folk? Thats it!? He becomes this power hungry guy with no compassion for others or the women he bonded though that wasn't the picture that was left with us. He knows how to make deathgates (watched Rand and made some) and yet he never uses them or even thinks to teach them to Androl who would be god with them. He also seems to have no gratitude to those that saved him and acts all upset that he isn't the Dragon Reborn even though that hurtle had been cleared books ago. He also never has a problem with the fact that Androl is running around with a Red Ajah member.

Some points are fair, but part of his glory was being the one who broke the seals.

Demandred: He was in Shara and all those channelers had been in his control this whole time? And he wanted to face Lew Therin on the battlefield... so why hadn't he in any of the numerous times Lews was on the field with corrupted Asha'Man? At those times the M'Hael would have been under his command and he would have known. He was smart enough to know that Lews Therin HAD to go to Shayol Ghul in order to confront the dark one and should have went to that battle front after not finding him in Merrilor. Also, the Bao the Wyld thing seemed like a weak attempt to appease us that NOTHING about his cover identity had been known up until then.

On the first part, we don't know (I don't think) exactly how long Demandred had control there. We also don't know how often he was in contact with Taim or the rogue Asha'man. He could have done things the same way, say, Sammael did. He showed up quite a few times to the Shaido, but that didn't mean they called him everytime something happened. And if Demandred didn't have a ter'angreal that could be used to summon him like Sammael did, he might not have been in constant and immediate contact, especially if he was taking control of all of Shara.

On the second part, he obviously would have known Rand had to go to Shayol Ghul at some point, but the fighting had been going on overall for quite a while by that point, and Rand made sure to appear at all of them. It wasn't unreasonable to assume Rand planned to fight at Merrilor first and go to Shayol Ghul after dealing with the Shadows armies, especially since Rand had previously been trying to save everyone.

Gawyn: I felt this was a particular failure of the book, Gawyn the brash youth had been finally quelled in the previous books and then they have him go against this wisdom he gained for no reason other than to kill him off. Gawyn had faced channelers and failed before, Egwene had made it clear to him that she could handle the forsaken in one on one fights AND he had just promised to follow Egwene in all things as long as he got to protect her. HE left her alone, in the middle of a war just to attack a target that he had no hope of defeating. The fact that he put on those rings and they did nearly nothing for him in his battle vs Demandred was in itself disappointing. I think having three different people (gawyn, galad and Lan) all commit to the EXACT same course of action was repetitive and just plain bad writing. Also the assassins were in the Tower for weeks and didn't die from the rings... so it obviously is a long run thing.

A few things here. First, I question that Gawyn really quelled anything. He pretty much just kept being brash and Egwene finally said "Oh, you..." and took him back. The only reason he ended up back in Tar Valon to save Egwene (the last real thing he did before this book) was because he threw a fit, stormed off to Caemlyn, stubbornly said "Nuh uh, she can save herself!" when Egwene demanded he return, then realized who the assassin was and went running off to singlehandedly fight them. Where did he quell the brash youth?

As for Demandred, I think it was very clear at that point that Demandred, with his Sa'angreal and huge circle, was way, way out of Egwene's league. Saying she can handle Mesaana because she has a trap planned is not the same thing. And Gawyn's plan wasn't to get into a fight with a channeling Demandred, it was to assassinate Demandred using the rings that essentially created super assassins. It didn't work but considering the desperate nature of the fight, it was a reasonable thing to attempt.

Galad: Why did we spend so much time seeing Galad grow as a person, leader and sibling just to see him commit a brash, emotion filled and really stupid move as attacking a forsaken? After seeing that Gawyn had been mangled for trying. He is a logical, cold and honest individual that would not have been overwhelmed by emotion at Gawyn's death he would have done what was right. He would have wanted revenge, like he had for Morgase, but he would not have jeopardized the legacy of the Children so easily. His end did not sit well with me and I didn't particularly like him as a character in the first place.

Galad definitely grew, but I think there's a couple problems here. First, it doesn't seem like you think ANYONE should have gone after Demandred. He's a near Lews Therin level channeler in a circle of 72 with a Sa'angreal, surrounded by a ridiculously large army. They had to try to get creative in terms of killing him, hence Gawyn's assassination attempt and Galad's attempt using Mat's ter'angreal. I'd also say it doesn't seem at all odd to me that he'd be emotional about Gawyn. I think Galad is often viewed through Elayne's portrayal of him and not who he actually is. Even Elayne, though, admits that Galad clearly cared about Gawyn.

Morgase: NOT IN THE WHOLE BOOK! She is mentioned by others but we never get anything from her. She was a major character and a POV and she is just left to rot on the sidelines while we read about what some no-name Aes Sedai are up to.

I don't think she needed to be, though. Once the kids saw her again, her story was essentially done. She wouldn't have served any purpose in the battle.

Mat&Fain: Mat went from the Mat that wanted to save everyone from the fire to just gonna let everyone burn pretty fast. Fain... he killed him with the Knife... the Knife that COULDN'T HURT FAIN. This was made clear OVER and OVER that the knife had no ill effect on him and yet here at the end Mat is able to kill him in one blow with it and then the knife just disappears into Fains corpse.

But...I mean...it's still a knife. The corrupting part doesn't work on Fain, but it's still a sharp dagger being used against a human form.

Rand: I LOVED Rand's story right up until the last few chapters. Then I was more disappointed with Brandon Sanderson than I thought I could be. First off his "battle" with the Dark One was anti-climatic, there was no real feeling of struggle or chance of loss, there was no real trials, it was merely him imaging stuff while the Dark One did so in return. Then he is suddenly spit out of the Dark Ones Prison for no reason that is apparent and wins because he somehow had planned for Morridin being in the chamber, having the Callandor, using it to draw the True Source, releasing Moiraine and Nynaeve from the circle and having them take control of him. This "foresight" made no sense whatsoever, how could he have decided to gamble all of existence on such a remote string of events. Rand KNEW he was going to die. Was POSITIVE about it and yet somehow he made plans to hide his identity after the fact with Alivia. I will get to the epilogue below.

He probably just interpreted the prophecies/viewings/dreams/etc. And they already knew about Callandor's flaw. The only thing he couldn't specifically plan for was Moridin being there, but I don't think it was some huge shocker that Moridin would be there, considering he was connected to Rand (and Rand knew it), and since he had been going on for awhile about how the two of them were locked into this battle.

Releasing Bonds: This is too convenient now at the end of the series to just pull out of the hat. Why wouldn't EVERY sister who thought she was about to die do what Alanna did? Why did they make such a big deal out of it in previous books? Felt this was a bit to convenient for making things easier to tie up at the end.

I'm almost positive this has been addressed plenty of times earlier in the books. I remember wondering why Nynaeve and Egwene didn't just arrange for Lan to be released so Nynaeve could bond him herself way back in Crown of Swords and beyond, although I suppose you could argue she was waiting until she was officially tested. As to why other Aes Sedai don't do this when they know they're dying, I don't know, but I don't believe this is a sudden addition at the end of the series. Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I'm fairly sure we already knew it was possible.

Balefire: Everyone, even the Forsaken, seem afraid of using it and yet in the last book they go willy nilly with it, not a care in the world. I mean from their perspective the Last Battle was the beginning of a Forsaken made world and the excuse that "it was the Last Battle" doesnt sit well with me.

You don't remember in Lords of Chaos when the Dark One specifically asked Demandred if he would use balefire for him? It's clear whoever decided not to use balefire before, the Dark One now wants it used.

Draghkar: Used all of once in whole Last Battle, the Dark Ones arial attackers are used once and all they do is drop among camp to eat reg followers. They are a huge advantage in a war situation, something to counter the Seanchan Raken and yet they are never involved with the main fighting. Huge oversight.

Maybe I'm wrong about Draghkar, but my memory is that they're extremely weak and fragile, that their purpose is to steal the souls of people by essentially lulling them into a calm and then stealing it. I don't believe they would have been any use as aerial fighters, but I could be mistaken.

Blight Monsters: They are all creatures of the Dark Ones and yet he doesn't make use of them, at all. I expected worms to be the biggest problem for the battle of Thakkan'dar and they were a no show even though they are attracted to noise and battle according to previous books. The battle lasted weeks and yet they never show up, not once.

Did we know if the blight creatures were servants of the Dark One, though, rather than just evolved monsters living out in the Blight? I honestly don't remember, I just recall somewhere that Worms would attack Trollocs and Myrddral as well.

Deaths in General: I'm all for plot twists but this was just depressing, the people we had been preparing to lose in the Last Battle (Lan and Rand) live while people no one thought would die there (Egwene and Siuan) do. Lan wanted death and has not much more to offer the world other than rebuilding a nation that has been dead for a lifetime. Rand expected to be a martyr for the world. Egwene was to be the greatest Amyrlin to ever live and she was Amyrlin for about 8 months. Siuan had survived so many trials to just be nonchalantly slain at the end. The only reason I feel these characters were killed was to kill SOMEONE off. Why not Talmanes, why not Morgase, why not Redarm officers, why not Elyas or Silviana? These would have fulfilled the need for deaths and not have touched characters like Siuan who had been so many chapters of POV.

I mean, I don't know what to tell you except that it's not the series RJ was writing. He wasn't writing a story building all these characters up to this massive worldwide battle only to say "Don't worry guys, I'll only kill people you don't care about or nobodies!". It's not the series he was writing. People were going to die and some of them were going to hit the fans hard...that's why it was done.

THE EPILOGUE: ARE. YOU. SERIOUS. We get all of a paragraph explaining the situation of Mat, Perrin, Nynaeve that doesn't even tell us what the results of all this devastation is, just basically goes and they were sad and burned Rand's (Morridins) body. Then Rand isn't dead, has planned to flee being the Dragon Reborn, flee from all the people suffering because he died, flee from responsibility, his father, his children and the victory he had wanted. He decides to run off and EXPLORE!? This man that had carried the weight of the world on his shoulders, had felt responsible for every living being, had faced his own martyrdom, just walks away. HE then wonders which ONE of his wives would follow him as if he didn't even care. He uses some mystical new power that allows him to channel without channeling and rides off into the sunset. This did not seem like the Rand I spent years of my life getting to know. This did not leave me with a happy feeling, it left me feeling as though Brandon Sanderson and Harriet had NO IDEA who Rand was AT ALL.

Robert Jordan wrote the last scene with Rand, so if you're going to complain someone doesn't understand Rand, it was the guy who created him. It made perfect sense to me. Rand did everything he did because he felt he had to. It's not that he didn't care as well, he did, but he felt very forced into his path as well. He expresses that quite a bit.

KyleLitke
01-13-2013, 10:36 PM
On Mat and Perrin not being that super upset...they might have gotten over it a bit because they "knew" he was dead the moment they found out he was the Dragon Reborn in TGH....as everyone "knew" that the Dragon Reborn dies to save humanity. Probably made it easier to cope with it knowing that.

I agree it felt off but then its felt "off" since Brandon took over. RJ had a very unique voice and Brandon himself stated he couldnt imitate it perfectly.

At least it was finished and in decent form.

Perrin did shed a few tears as well, when talking to Nynaeve about Rand, but he was distracted because he didn't know Faile was alive yet.

Mat was pretty much just whatever about it, but to be honest, that started with RJ. In Eye of the World, I felt like Rand and Mat were very close friends (Rand was literally the only person crazy Mat would trust, and when Rand got sick from the channeling, Mat essentially carried him along and nursed him back despite the fact that he was already fairly far along in the corruption process). They had their fight in Great Hunt but even that felt more like a friend upset that his other friend is blowing him off, and Mat kind of apologized later. But sometime after going through the doorway, Mat started getting a lot more distant toward Rand, or that's how it seemed to me, and they never quite made up.

CaraighanMaconar
01-13-2013, 11:13 PM
Logain: His glory was helping children and gaining the like of the small folk? Thats it!? He becomes this power hungry guy with no compassion for others or the women he bonded though that wasn't the picture that was left with us. He knows how to make deathgates (watched Rand and made some) and yet he never uses them or even thinks to teach them to Androl who would be god with them. He also seems to have no gratitude to those that saved him and acts all upset that he isn't the Dragon Reborn even though that hurtle had been cleared books ago. He also never has a problem with the fact that Androl is running around with a Red Ajah member.

page 638

The Sharans turned on them and pointed, but then cried out as Androl brought an avalanche of snow down on them from a gateway to the side. He had tried making those Deathgates that the other Asha'man used, but the weave was apparently just different enough that he had trouble. Instead, he stuck to what he was good at doing.


Androl knows how to make Deathgates, he just can't make them work. It seems unlikely the Dragon Reborn taught the BT men that weave, leaving Logain as the most likely teacher.

C.