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View Full Version : Questions about A Memory of Light (Expect Spoilers)


Marie Curie 7
01-14-2013, 10:32 AM
Hey everyone...

This is the place to ask your questions about AMoL!

This thread is meant for questions that are likely to require only a short answer. If you have a question that you feel will require more substantial discussion, or you want to start a more general discussion about a topic related to AMoL, do so in a separate thread. Also, questions posed here that evolve into a longer discussion will be moved to a separate thread for continued discussion.

Have fun!

Delirium
01-14-2013, 06:57 PM
Where's Valen Luca? Shouldn't we have gotten at least a cameo?

connabard
01-14-2013, 09:48 PM
Where's Valen Luca? Shouldn't we have gotten at least a cameo?

He was the Dark One.

connabard
01-14-2013, 10:10 PM
Also, serious question:
Galad seeing the Light guide him? Was he actually for real seeing the Light, or is that just how he perceives his moral compass?

Scrooge
01-14-2013, 11:40 PM
Few questions mostly from the Epilogue:

Who is the gray haired old, Aiel clad woman that Rand encounters as he carries Moridin's body out? And when she says "Yes, that's good. That is what you need to do." I'm assuming she's talking about he needs Moridin's body to survive? How would she know that?

At the end of that same PoV, Rand babbles about the Aeflinn answer and choices, which question is he referring to? The first was the cleansing of Saidin, so I'm assuming that's got nothing to do with anything. The second was about how to win the last battle and survive, but the answer they gave to that seemed to have been wrapped up. The third we were never given right? So is he babbling about that? I read something about they said it'd be in an encyclopedia to be published?

Did we ever get any of Moiraine's questions/answers?

Did I miss Dobraine in this book? I can't recall seeing him even mentioned.

Not related to AMoL, but this has bugged me for years, so whatever: regarding Saidin cleansing, did we ever hear the Aeflinn answer to that, and how is Herid Fel's statement make any sense?

I get that Rand made a giant Saidar tunnel to siphon Saidin toward Shadar Logoth and Mashadar and the Taint off'ed each other. But how do you get that idea from "stated sound principles in both high philosophy and natural philosophy."

Oh and what was the deal with the Prologue Slayer and female Forsaken meeting? Was it Lanfear, Moghedien or Graendel? And what was the deal of Moridin showing up but not showing up? Moghedien pretending to be Moridin? What was the purpose of that?

maacaroni
01-15-2013, 03:56 AM
Was the 'wise woman' that Androl studied with in Tear the same one that Nynaeve and Egwene stayed with in the Dragon Reborn?

Ishara
01-15-2013, 05:49 PM
Few questions mostly from the Epilogue:

Who is the gray haired old, Aiel clad woman that Rand encounters as he carries Moridin's body out? And when she says "Yes, that's good. That is what you need to do." I'm assuming she's talking about he needs Moridin's body to survive? How would she know that?
There are arguments suggesting this is Nakomi making a reappearance. I tend to lean this way, base don the fact that Rand didn't recognize her voice.


Did I miss Dobraine in this book? I can't recall seeing him even mentioned.Nope. Not mentioned, unfortunately.

Crispin's Crispian
01-15-2013, 05:54 PM
Also, serious question:
Galad seeing the Light guide him? Was he actually for real seeing the Light, or is that just how he perceives his moral compass?

Do you mean the streaks of light as he was looking for Demandred? I believe they were a double entendre--both Demandred's balefire (white-hot bars of light) and, well, the Light guiding his way.

Crispin's Crispian
01-15-2013, 05:57 PM
Oh and what was the deal with the Prologue Slayer and female Forsaken meeting? Was it Lanfear, Moghedien or Graendel? And what was the deal of Moridin showing up but not showing up? Moghedien pretending to be Moridin? What was the purpose of that?
Not sure about Moridin, other than to show that Slayer was somewere badass. We all assume he meat with Cyndane, who wanted him to kill Rand in Tel'aran'rhiod at Shayol Ghul.

It just occurred to me that Perrin killed the two Talented fake Aiel when he was looking for the Dreamspike at the BT. For some reason I thought they were Asha'man at the time of reading.

Terez
01-15-2013, 06:15 PM
At the end of that same PoV, Rand babbles about the Aeflinn answer and choices, which question is he referring to? The first was the cleansing of Saidin, so I'm assuming that's got nothing to do with anything. The second was about how to win the last battle and survive, but the answer they gave to that seemed to have been wrapped up. The third we were never given right? So is he babbling about that? I read something about they said it'd be in an encyclopedia to be published?
It's implied that his third question was "How do I kill the Dark One?" He says he asked the wrong question.

Did we ever get any of Moiraine's questions/answers?
No. It's possible we'll get them in the Encyclopedia, but it's also possible RJ didn't leave them in the notes.

Not related to AMoL, but this has bugged me for years, so whatever: regarding Saidin cleansing, did we ever hear the Aeflinn answer to that, and how is Herid Fel's statement make any sense?
No, we never got the riddle. Which was a bit convenient for RJ, as he never had to come up with one. (But it may be that was in the notes, and I'm being unfair; we'll see if it's in the Encyclopedia.)

Oh and what was the deal with the Prologue Slayer and female Forsaken meeting?
We don't know really. Perhaps some questions on the tour will clarify things.

Dom
01-15-2013, 09:17 PM
It just occurred to me that Perrin killed the two Talented fake Aiel when he was looking for the Dreamspike at the BT. For some reason I thought they were Asha'man at the time of reading.

I must have missed something. Perrin described them as two Asha'man in black coats.

p. 294

Dom
01-15-2013, 09:21 PM
It's implied that his third question was "How do I kill the Dark One?" He says he asked the wrong question.

I was under the impression the idea to kill the DO came to Rand first circa TGS, but this was after he killed Ishamael thinking he was the DO, only to be told by Moiraine it was just a Forsaken. So maybe... but I'm doubtful he asked that.

IMO, he was referring to "to live, you must die".

Crispin's Crispian
01-15-2013, 09:47 PM
I must have missed something. Perrin described them as two Asha'man in black coats.

p. 294

Well then...what happened to his assigned helpers?

bigwil0024
01-16-2013, 12:19 AM
Ok so i need some insight on the end of this book!!!! What was the whole thing with rand just imagining the pipe lit and it was?
also did i miss something but when did he arrange for alivia to put stuff out for him?
and did Elayne, Aveinda, and Min know he was planning it or were they just being so obvious about hiding the fact he was alive because they were surprised as well?

Aadogg
01-16-2013, 05:06 AM
First off, the last 300 pages made up for the slow start. The "Last Battle" chapter was probably as good as any war/battle description ever written, from Hugo to Tolstoy to Homer all those other old Greek dudes.

But what's the deal with Moraine?

Ok. It was a big deal when Moraine died. She was a major character. She was a key force in the beginning of the story. She died, it was like, "oh my."

Then there was all that about how Rand could never survive the last battle without Moraine. And eventually half of an (excellent) book was written by Mr. Sanderson about the rescue or Moraine.

But then, in this book, aside from linking with Rand and Nynaeve in the final moments, Moraine doesn't seem to have done a whole heck of a lot.

This bothers me even more than the inexplicable bodyswitch. I can make up my own whatever explanations for a bodyswitch. But the return of Moraine was built up as being the most impossible but most important thing ever. And then she was just kind of, "there".

Did I miss something that would help explain Moraine's importance?

GonzoTheGreat
01-16-2013, 05:12 AM
Well, Moiraine also strolled into the gathering at Merrilor and bullied all present into doing as she wanted. Then she bullied Rand out of being in command of the armies. All of that in about ten minutes or so.
Compare that to the speed of the real world climate change conferences, and how quickly agreements are reached there.

Aadogg
01-16-2013, 05:49 AM
So all the hubbub about bringing her back was just so she could counteract Egwene's naysaying and give Rand an argument about why he couldn't command the armies -- the former of which could have been left out with the drama preserved and the latter of which any other character could have done?

What did Moraine do that only Moraine could have done? To keep Rand alive?

GonzoTheGreat
01-16-2013, 06:35 AM
She also finished the mental healing, by showing that he wasn't always responsible for the deaths of people who got killed in his neighbourhood.

Terez
01-16-2013, 08:31 AM
I was under the impression the idea to kill the DO came to Rand first circa TGS, but this was after he killed Ishamael thinking he was the DO, only to be told by Moiraine it was just a Forsaken. So maybe... but I'm doubtful he asked that.

IMO, he was referring to "to live, you must die".
Don't think so. I had an email conversation with Peter about this. Yes, it was first mentioned in TGS, which is why I argued that Brandon just Made It Up, but Peter got a bit defensive about it and said we should ask Maria whether or not the third question was in the notes, and so Marie asked her in Chicago. (She said it was.)

Rand's words don't make sense in the context of 'to live, you must die', and this question serves to explain why he did just ask how to seal the Bore.

Nisheeth
01-16-2013, 09:37 AM
I must have missed something. Perrin described them as two Asha'man in black coats.

p. 294

If I am not mistaken, he encountered the Asha'man when he got to the Black Tower to get the Dream Spike, and the Red-veiled Aiel when he was setting the dreamspike in Shayol Ghul.


What did Moraine do that only Moraine could have done? To keep Rand alive?
Had she not come, Egwene was going towards attacing Rand with armies to stop him from breaking the seals, just as he was about to walk away. Even if he somehow defeated her armies, he would be left with a weaker, divider army and he himself drained. That would have lead to a defeat at the Last Battle. It was Moraine coming back that prevented them coming to blows. Her other contribution was helping rand's mental state as well.

Now a question I had,
Min's viewing that Cadsuane would teach Rand and the Ashaman something that he wouldn't like. Had it been fulfilled. I can't remember it being so.

Terez
01-16-2013, 09:44 AM
If I am not mistaken, he encountered the Asha'man when he got to the Black Tower to get the Dream Spike, and the Red-veiled Aiel when he was setting the dreamspike in Shayol Ghul.
Correct.

Now a question I had,
Min's viewing that Cadsuane would teach Rand and the Ashaman something that he wouldn't like. Had it been fulfilled. I can't remember it being so.
She taught them (through Rand) that it's hard to win a fight if you don't remember that you have a reason to live. It's subtly laid out but still pretty clear. For her it was 'laughter and tears', but the 'not just weapons' line was Rand's way of spreading that philosophy to the Black Tower. Cadsuane's speech about the gifts was another point. But even at Shayol Ghul Rand had the expectation that he would die, in his thoughts. Come to think of it, someone mentioned this as a quirk of Brandon's....somewhere. Though I think they used Mat as an example. Ah, yes, it was Callandor. Rand was thinking all the way up to the end that he was going to die, but in the epilogue you find out he didn't really believe that.

Tollingtoy
01-16-2013, 10:07 AM
How exactly was the Black Tower "rent in blood and fire"?

Terez
01-16-2013, 10:23 AM
It happened off screen.

Dom
01-16-2013, 10:30 AM
Well then...what happened to his assigned helpers?

Shayol Ghul stuff.

Slayer had nothing to do with the Dreamspike at the BT, Perrin followed a hunch but assumed wrong when he thought Slayer was also linked to it just because he was Graendal's watchdog over the first one.

The one at the BT, Moridin gave to Taim.

Crispin's Crispian
01-16-2013, 11:18 AM
Shayol Ghul stuff.

Slayer had nothing to do with the Dreamspike at the BT, Perrin followed a hunch but assumed wrong when he thought Slayer was also linked to it just because he was Graendal's watchdog over the first one.

The one at the BT, Moridin gave to Taim.

I think I just assumed those were some more of the fake Aiel who were already up near Shayol Ghul. I kind of forgot about those guys until yesterday.

Nisheeth
01-17-2013, 02:27 AM
She taught them (through Rand) that it's hard to win a fight if you don't remember that you have a reason to live. It's subtly laid out but still pretty clear. For her it was 'laughter and tears', but the 'not just weapons' line was Rand's way of spreading that philosophy to the Black Tower. Cadsuane's speech about the gifts was another point. But even at Shayol Ghul Rand had the expectation that he would die, in his thoughts. Come to think of it, someone mentioned this as a quirk of Brandon's....somewhere. Though I think they used Mat as an example. Ah, yes, it was Callandor. Rand was thinking all the way up to the end that he was going to die, but in the epilogue you find out he didn't really believe that.
Ah! That would make sense. I had ignored that case because I didn't see her teaching something to the Asha'man.

Thanks.

Martine But Not Jenata
01-17-2013, 02:07 PM
I cannot remember the details of Alanna's disappearance/abduction: was her Warder still around for that? Did we ever find out what happened to him?

Davian93
01-17-2013, 02:19 PM
I cannot remember the details of Alanna's disappearance/abduction: was her Warder still around for that? Did we ever find out what happened to him?

He was Sir Not Appearing In This Book...

Terez
01-17-2013, 02:24 PM
He was Sir Not Appearing In This Book...
But He of the Misspelled Name lives on, as does She of the Misspelled Name, who is well come to Theoryland.

Martine But Not Jenata
01-17-2013, 02:30 PM
Thank you! So no clues there to find out how Alanna ended up at Shayol Ghul... :( Oh, well...

Ivhon
01-17-2013, 02:32 PM
But He of the Misspelled Name lives on, as does She of the Misspelled Name, who is well come to Theoryland.

If you people can't recognize satire when you see it, then I can't help you. :(

Terez
01-17-2013, 02:40 PM
If you people can't recognize satire when you see it, then I can't help you. :(
I did consider that she was your alt account...which would be an elaborate way to make a joke...

Ivhon
01-17-2013, 02:43 PM
I did consider that she was your alt account...which would be an elaborate way to make a joke...

yeah. The alt account thing has been done to death, IMO. It was funny the first time back in 2001.

Martine But Not Jenata
01-17-2013, 02:48 PM
Oh, my. Nice to make your acquaintance, Ivhon. This is a funny coincidence indeed. :)

(Is there a way to correct a spelling mistake in my own name? *still blushing*)

Ivhon
01-17-2013, 02:50 PM
Oh, my. Nice to make your acquaintance, Ivhon. This is a funny coincidence indeed. :)

(Is there a way to correct a spelling mistake in my own name? *still blushing*)

The trick, here, is to play it off as if you meant to do it. As I clearly did.

Nice to meet you and welcome :)

Ishara
01-17-2013, 03:23 PM
Thank you! So no clues there to find out how Alanna ended up at Shayol Ghul... :( Oh, well...

Well, we know she got a letter from Verin the last time we saw her. So, it's beginning to look like Verin sold her and her link to Rand out to the Shadow. Which sort of adds to the complexity that is Verin in a less awesome way.

Terez
01-17-2013, 03:24 PM
It's possible, but it's also possible that Verin simply sent her honestly on a dangerous task.

SamJ
01-17-2013, 04:49 PM
Has anyone found out if we will get more about Verin's letters in the encyclopedia? (Sorry - having trouble keeping up with all the audio signing reports)

Terez
01-17-2013, 05:27 PM
Brandon said he wants to leave it open.

fionwe1987
01-17-2013, 06:32 PM
She taught them (through Rand) that it's hard to win a fight if you don't remember that you have a reason to live.
Rand disliked learning this. But the Asha'man did not. In fact, Rand telling them of this was only a validation to them of what they'd come to conclude on their own.

eht slat meit
01-17-2013, 07:56 PM
Now a question I had,
Min's viewing that Cadsuane would teach Rand and the Ashaman something that he wouldn't like. Had it been fulfilled. I can't remember it being so.

It could be argued that she's taught Rand all sorts of things he doesn't like since she hooked up with him, but I think the Asha'man side of the equation isn't coming until after AMOL. As Amyrlin - White Tower to the Black - she will have an abundance of things to teach them, probably the least of which is some humility if they haven't already learned it with the TG purge.

Rand al'Fain
01-17-2013, 08:27 PM
It could be argued that she's taught Rand all sorts of things he doesn't like since she hooked up with him, but I think the Asha'man side of the equation isn't coming until after AMOL. As Amyrlin - White Tower to the Black - she will have an abundance of things to teach them, probably the least of which is some humility if they haven't already learned it with the TG purge.

Considering both Towers lost hundreds of Channelers in the weeks leading up to and during the Last Battle, they'll have to work together somehow (as entities, rather than just indivduals like Androl and Pevara and what not).

Anyone know when the next encyclopedia will come out? And how much it may clarify things (like Alanna turning up randomly at Shayol Ghul with no one noticing it or making any remarks on it)?

Davian93
01-17-2013, 08:33 PM
Considering both Towers lost hundreds of Channelers in the weeks leading up to and during the Last Battle, they'll have to work together somehow (as entities, rather than just indivduals like Androl and Pevara and what not).

Anyone know when the next encyclopedia will come out? And how much it may clarify things (like Alanna turning up randomly at Shayol Ghul with no one noticing it or making any remarks on it)?

Upside for the WT is that they have several thousand Novice/Accepted to build back up from so they'll still end the day as a far stronger organization than they were the day Moiraine showed up in the TR in tEotW.

Rand al'Fain
01-17-2013, 08:36 PM
Upside for the WT is that they have several thousand Novice/Accepted to build back up from so they'll still end the day as a far stronger organization than they were the day Moiraine showed up in the TR in tEotW.

True, and with Logain and company saving all of those non-combatants, they redeemed male channelers the world over, and should probably expect more men to come ot the Black Tower to learn to channel.

eht slat meit
01-17-2013, 08:37 PM
Considering both Towers lost hundreds of Channelers in the weeks leading up to and during the Last Battle, they'll have to work together somehow (as entities, rather than just indivduals like Androl and Pevara and what not).


They do, but it's never quite that easy, is it?

Bear in mind that because of Logain's abuse by Taim and his desire for glory that he had to sacrifice before he found any, he's not going to be anything like an easy partner for an Amyrlin to work with. He's got pride and arrogance enough for any former False Dragon, and a number of legitimate grievances, one of which includes being paraded through Caemlyn like a prize goat.

Two people that totally deserve each other.

SamJ
01-18-2013, 01:25 AM
Brandon said he wants to leave it open.

Ta!

GonzoTheGreat
01-18-2013, 03:49 AM
Well, we know she got a letter from Verin the last time we saw her. So, it's beginning to look like Verin sold her and her link to Rand out to the Shadow. Which sort of adds to the complexity that is Verin in a less awesome way.
It is also possible that Verin warned Alanna of the plot to capture her and use her against the Dragon, Alanna then went into hiding on her own, and got captured.

maacaroni
01-18-2013, 04:49 AM
Was the 'wise woman' that Androl studied with in Tear the same one that Nynaeve and Egwene stayed with in the Dragon Reborn?

I thought people were answering questions???

GonzoTheGreat
01-18-2013, 05:45 AM
The answer is: maybe, we don't know.
Does that help?

Rand al'Fain
01-18-2013, 11:52 AM
Here's a question:

Why did the Sharan channeler that Mat caught adapt so quickly and willingly to being a damane?

Terez
01-18-2013, 11:52 AM
Cultural conditioning. She saw getting an a'dam like getting a tattoo. It's permanent, and there's no use fighting it. (Though, since it's slightly less permanent than a tattoo, she might be hatching plans to escape the a'dam, but she knows enough to play along for now.)

tarski
01-18-2013, 02:56 PM
Was it ever explained how Rand overcame his saidin sickness, or what the cause of it was in the first place? Was it just a psychological thing?

Terez
01-18-2013, 03:22 PM
He said Power was 'part of him' after his epiphany, presumably something like his children with Aviendha. He only got the sickness when he seized the Source. There's a bit with Rand releasing saidin I noticed at once point, though. I'm not sure if it's a mistake.

Rand worked by the soft, steady light of a saidin globe. Before Dragonmount, he'd begun avoiding this kind of common use of the One Power. Seizing it had made him sick, and using it had revolted him more and more.

That had changed. Saidin was part of him, and he needed to fear it no longer, now that the taint was gone. More importantly, he had to stop thinking of it—and of himself—as merely a weapon.

Dom
01-18-2013, 04:36 PM
He said Power was 'part of him' after his epiphany, presumably something like his children with Aviendha. He only got the sickness when he seized the Source. There's a bit with Rand releasing saidin I noticed at once point, though. I'm not sure if it's a mistake.

I noticed this all implies the whole problem was psychological, similar to a block except instead of blocking him completely from embracing the source, it provoked nausea.

rand
01-21-2013, 08:14 PM
So, Rianna and Jeaine Caide come back...I'm wondering if their actions in aMoL correspond with any theories people had about them? Or did BS just throw them in for the hell of it? Also, I don't think the third missing BA from Liandrin's group (Barylla, or something?) was mentioned, but do any of the unnamed BA sisters in aMoL match the description of her? (if there was a description; I don't think she was really mentioned in more than that one scene...)

Rand al'Fain
01-21-2013, 08:19 PM
So, Rianna and Jeaine Caide come back...I'm wondering if their actions in aMoL correspond with any theories people had about them? Or did BS just throw them in for the hell of it? Also, I don't think the third missing BA from Liandrin's group (Barylla, or something?) was mentioned, but do any of the unnamed BA sisters in aMoL match the description of her? (if there was a description; I don't think she was really mentioned in more than that one scene...)

Not sure, but she very well could have been one of the previous fakes that tried to get past Thom, since he did have 5 bodies stuffed in there.

I know Thom won't hesitate to get rid of someone, especially a DF, but the guy was cold as ice in his POV while disposing of the body.

rand
01-21-2013, 10:15 PM
Yep, I thought of them (but none of them are described at all). There's also the one Olver kills. She's wearing white, but Berylla was a Blue, so... probably not enough.

On a side note, I found it pretty funny that Thom killing people off and stuffing their bodies behind a rock is very similar to a scene I wrote for a WoT parody around six years ago. :p

Kimon
01-21-2013, 10:30 PM
Concerning Min's viewings of Fortuona, should we assume that these were hints at things that would have taken place in the Outriggers (and hence directly from RJ, as opposed to just random BS) or could any of these, besides the death lily, have had any reference to events that took place in TG?

-three ships, sailing
-an insect in the darkness
-red lights, spread across a field that should be lush and ripe
-a man with the teeth of a wolf

Addendum: at least we finally found out what the something dark about Bashere was...

Terez
01-22-2013, 12:38 AM
The three ships struck me as a reference to Niña, Pinta, and Santa María.
The insect in the darkness struck me as Moghedien.
Red lights, not sure.
Man with wolf-teeth, red-veils.

RJ left two sentences of notes about the outriggers, so I'm guessing 'three ships' was Brandon.

professorskar
01-22-2013, 12:41 AM
She saw getting an a'dam like getting a tattoo.

So she put on the leash to piss off her parents?

Dom
01-22-2013, 07:53 AM
Red lights, not sure.

That's possibly the battle at Merrilor, simply enough.

Daekyras
01-22-2013, 08:25 AM
The three ships struck me as a reference to Niña, Pinta, and Santa María.
The insect in the darkness struck me as Moghedien.
Red lights, not sure.
Man with wolf-teeth, red-veils.

RJ left two sentences of notes about the outriggers, so I'm guessing 'three ships' was Brandon.

Why would that be a reference? What continent does Tuon have to visit?

Spiders aren't insects...

Does Tuon make contact with the red veils? They were all at SG weren't they?

Rand al'Fain
01-22-2013, 12:36 PM
Why would that be a reference? What continent does Tuon have to visit?Seanchan, in order to reclaim it. But only 3? I do find that odd.

Spiders aren't insects...
Agreed, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't have the same thought as Terez there.
Does Tuon make contact with the red veils? They were all at SG weren't they?
Not to my knowledge, but the red veils were never said to have "wolf teeth", just sharpened. Maybe Elyas, since he goes by the name "Longtooth" by the wolves?

Dom
01-22-2013, 01:19 PM
Seanchan, in order to reclaim it. But only 3? I do find that odd.

Obviously she can't go back with 3 ships - she came with hundreds and hundreds.

It's more likely to be symbolic of something: 3 sea crossings for the Empress, 3 waves to her "Return" or 3 different fleets in the Return, 3 oversea campaigns etc.

We know Perrin was to cross to Seanchan at some point in the outriggers, so between his fleet and the Imperial one, it's only missing a third: a bargain between Fortuona and the Sea Folk, perhaps.

[QUOTE]Not to my knowledge, but the red veils were never said to have "wolf teeth", just sharpened. Maybe Elyas, since he goes by the name "Longtooth" by the wolves?

Personally I think this is just a symbol for Perrin and his role in the Seanchan reconquest. A small hint Brandon left us - not a terribly good one, but as Brandon went and revealed in Q&A that RJ meant to involve Perrin it's decipherable.

Terez
01-22-2013, 01:40 PM
Why would that be a reference? What continent does Tuon have to visit?
Seanchan is a parallel to the Americas. In this case it would be a sort of backward parallel, since Tuon would be returning home rather than setting off on a discovery mission, but that was still the impression I got. It works when you think of parallels like Guinevere.

Spiders aren't insects...
I may be wrong, but I suspect Brandon didn't think of that. Spider would have been too obvious. I can't think of any other fulfillment for that one, though, so I doubt we'll make anything else of it.

Does Tuon make contact with the red veils? They were all at SG weren't they?
I don't think they're exactly limited to that area, but she didn't come across any on screen that I recall.

Ieyasu
01-22-2013, 03:35 PM
We know Perrin was to cross to Seanchan at some point in the outriggers, so between his fleet and the Imperial one, it's only missing a third: a bargain between Fortuona and the Sea Folk, perhaps.



Personally I think this is just a symbol for Perrin and his role in the Seanchan reconquest. A small hint Brandon left us - not a terribly good one, but as Brandon went and revealed in Q&A that RJ meant to involve Perrin it's decipherable.

Source please? I do not recall anything about the outriggers ever involving Perrin at all... do you have some link or is this a new interview? The only one that comes to my mind is about Mat and Tuon...

Marie Curie 7
01-22-2013, 04:08 PM
Source please? I do not recall anything about the outriggers ever involving Perrin at all... do you have some link or is this a new interview? The only one that comes to my mind is about Mat and Tuon...

Yeah, it's new information, but it's already in the database.

Interview: Jan 11th, 2013
Reddit Earlybird Q&A (Verbatim) (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=863#5)

tiffranosaurusrex:
If you had to think into the future of Randland, what do you picture the remaining heroes doing?

Brandon Sanderson:
Well, in RJ's notes, Perrin was to be involved in the Outriggers (which would be the story of Mat and Tuon in Seanchan.) So Perrin would make his way there, eventually. (I don't know how that would have worked with Perrin's new obligations.)

From here, I stray away from canon (meaning what RJ wanted) and into my own imaginings. I imagine that Rand went to see the world, becoming like Jain Farstrider. Min joined him, and they saw the world. Aviendha and Elayne spent decades, maybe centuries, leading their own people before retiring to join the other two.

Ieyasu
01-22-2013, 04:17 PM
Yeah, it's new information, but it's already in the database.

Yes I recall that quote, however, it makes no sense to me. There are supposedly only two sentences about the outriggers... what are they? 'Mat and Tuon retake Seanchan. Perrin helps.' and as it is a new quote, I am not as intimately familiar with it as I am with others, so I was mentally disregarding it since BS goes on to say 'straying from cannon' and what not... thanks for the post.

Rand al'Fain
01-22-2013, 04:21 PM
Okay, so we know Elayne will pop out the twins in a few months and Aviendha will have some kids as well. But will Min ever have kids with Rand? Just wondering.

Marie Curie 7
01-22-2013, 04:21 PM
Yes I recall that quote, however, it makes no sense to me. There are supposedly only two sentences about the outriggers... what are they? 'Mat and Tuon retake Seanchan. Perrin helps.' and as it is a new quote, I am not as intimately familiar with it as I am with others, so I was mentally disregarding it since BS goes on to say 'straying from cannon' and what not... thanks for the post.


Yes, the two sentences could be as you stated. Who knows? But Harriet hinted that they might be revealed as part of the encyclopedia. And the part about Perrin being involving is clearly canon, because Brandon says only of the latter portion, "From here, I stray".

Ieyasu
01-22-2013, 04:41 PM
Yes, the two sentences could be as you stated. Who knows? But Harriet hinted that they might be revealed as part of the encyclopedia. And the part about Perrin being involving is clearly canon, because Brandon says only of the latter portion, "From here, I stray".

Yeah Im not saying its not cannon, only that I havent fully memorized that one, so was mentally dismissing it because I remembered it mentioned straying...

Hope it is explained further when the encyclopedia comes out.

Fourth Age Historian
01-22-2013, 05:50 PM
Has it been unequivocally confirmed that Outriggers will NOT be written (whether by BS or someone completely different)? All I can find is a lot of "probably nots" and otherwise hedged answers. In my experience, those things tend to turn into the "yesses" of 15 years in the future.

Not sure how I would feel about them being written (or not). Probably a swirling mixture (a tempest?) of positive "yay! more WoT!" and negative "BS writing more Mat POVs."

Ieyasu
01-22-2013, 06:03 PM
Has it been unequivocally confirmed that Outriggers will NOT be written (whether by BS or someone completely different)? All I can find is a lot of "probably nots" and otherwise hedged answers. In my experience, those things tend to turn into the "yesses" of 15 years in the future.

Not sure how I would feel about them being written (or not). Probably a swirling mixture (a tempest?) of positive "yay! more WoT!" and negative "BS writing more Mat POVs."

Taken from the most recent interview transcription on Jan 10, 2013:


Question
Are you going to do any more prequel books for the Wheel of Time?

Harriet McDougal
No.

Brandon Sanderson
Easy answer.


EDIT: taken from the same interview:

Question
Can you tell us the two sentences about the outriggers?

Harriet McDougal
Well I can, but it's a spoiler. Later, I certainly will, but right now that is a spoiler, in the two sentences.

Brandon Sanderson
The question references the outriggers, which was a sequel trilogy that Robert Jordan had intended to write to the Wheel of Time, involving some of the characters. We can't say much about it. You can find out more online, because we don't want to give spoilers, but he only left two sentences telling us what was going to be in those, and so it's basically impossible to write them, even if we had wanted to.

Harriet McDougal
Well, if he hadn't expressed himself so thoroughly, that before he let other people write in his universe, he would take his hard drives and run over them with a semi three times to be sure that that didn't happen, and it's...I mean, since there was literally two sentences, it would be very much a sharecropping operation—exactly what he didn't want to have happen.

Lazarus
01-23-2013, 03:37 AM
I'd love it if someone could direct me to a reference to explain this please.

Prior to AMOL, I knew the following:

1. Callandor is flawed, lacking the buffer that makes other sa'angreal safe to use.

2. When saidin was tainted, Callandor magnified the taint (which, in hindsight, might have been an aspect of its function as a True Power sa'angreal).

3. The flaw described in #1 above can be overcome by a male channeler using Callandor in a circle with two women, and one of them guiding the flows.

4. The Domination Bands or male a'dam can be used by either one or two women to control a male channeler.

When did we or the characters in the books learn that Callandor suffers from a further flaw such that two female channelers can seize control of any male channeler wielding it?

GonzoTheGreat
01-23-2013, 05:01 AM
When did we or the characters in the books learn that Callandor suffers from a further flaw such that two female channelers can seize control of any male channeler wielding it?
That comes from the properties of Callandor, Min's vision of a black hand (not Rand's) holding the sword that is not a sword, and:
She shook off the worrying; she had work to do. Was she following the wrong thread? Was she interpreting in the wrong way? She read the line again. Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

Terez
01-23-2013, 06:30 AM
I'd love it if someone could direct me to a reference to explain this please.

Prior to AMOL, I knew the following:

1. Callandor is flawed, lacking the buffer that makes other sa'angreal safe to use.

2. When saidin was tainted, Callandor magnified the taint (which, in hindsight, might have been an aspect of its function as a True Power sa'angreal).

3. The flaw described in #1 above can be overcome by a male channeler using Callandor in a circle with two women, and one of them guiding the flows.
I think the circle took care of #1, since circles have built-in buffers, but the woman in control took care of #2.

When did we or the characters in the books learn that Callandor suffers from a further flaw such that two female channelers can seize control of any male channeler wielding it?
It was never explained how they came to that conclusion, which makes it fairly deus ex machina.

Marie Curie 7
01-23-2013, 07:39 PM
A dozen posts related to the body swap have been moved to their own thread (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=7791) for further discussion...enjoy.

fionwe1987
01-23-2013, 07:41 PM
Anyone remember if there any hints that Siuan and Moiraine met offscreen?

Ieyasu
01-23-2013, 09:21 PM
My biggest, most burning AMOL question is:


What batch of crazy is Felix cooking up in response to this book?

Kimon
01-23-2013, 09:25 PM
My biggest, most burning AMOL question is:


What batch of crazy is Felix cooking up in response to this book?

He's probably still suffering from apoplexy due to the lack of attention paid to Valan Luca.

fionwe1987
01-23-2013, 09:34 PM
He's probably still suffering from apoplexy due to the lack of attention paid to Valan Luca.

What do you mean? He was there for the entire book. First he took over Rand al'Thor's body, and won the Last Battle. Then he took over Moridin's body, and went back to his show on a horse.

Kimon
01-23-2013, 09:46 PM
What do you mean? He was there for the entire book. First he took over Rand al'Thor's body, and won the Last Battle. Then he took over Moridin's body, and went back to his show on a horse.

There's also his whole odd fixation with capes. Didn't Egwene complain that she should have had a warder cloak?

Terez
01-23-2013, 10:14 PM
My biggest, most burning AMOL question is:

What batch of crazy is Felix cooking up in response to this book?
Last I talked to him on Twitter he was still reading, and not happy with the writing.

Dom
01-23-2013, 10:45 PM
Last I talked to him on Twitter he was still reading, and not happy with the writing.

I take it you missed the bit on CNN yesterday about that crazy guy running naked in the streets screaming "It's not over Valan, it's never over!"?

Rand al'Fain
01-24-2013, 01:36 PM
Do we have any idea of what will happen with the Sharans? Their ruling class was pretty much wiped out (Ayyad channelers), their leader for the last year-year and a half is dead, and they lost thousands, to tens of thousands of their soldiers in the battles against the Randlanders. So, do we have any clues on what happens to them?

tarski
01-24-2013, 03:54 PM
During the Last Battle, Mat thinks to himself that his ruse with Tuon is similar to the scheme that Rand once used with Perrin. How did Mat know about that incident, let alone that it was a ploy? Wasn't he in Ebou Dar at that point?

Dom
01-24-2013, 07:57 PM
During the Last Battle, Mat thinks to himself that his ruse with Tuon is similar to the scheme that Rand once used with Perrin. How did Mat know about that incident, let alone that it was a ploy? Wasn't he in Ebou Dar at that point?


It's a continuity error.

Zombie Sammael
01-24-2013, 10:08 PM
It's a continuity error.

Or someone told Mat about it off-screen, which is a better explanation than just assuming everything is a mistake. Or if you think there are too many off-screen conversations, it's the Dark One's influence causing the pattern to break down.

Terez
01-24-2013, 11:12 PM
I thought of it when I read it and I thought Mat mentioned that Perrin had told him about it in Caemlyn. But I don't know what words to use to search for it, so...

eht slat meit
01-25-2013, 12:10 AM
During the Last Battle, Mat thinks to himself that his ruse with Tuon is similar to the scheme that Rand once used with Perrin. How did Mat know about that incident, let alone that it was a ploy? Wasn't he in Ebou Dar at that point?

I would expect that back in Towers of Midnight at some point between playing Ease the Badger or sharing stories about all of their experiences Mat and Perrin discussed it.

Or at some other point offscreen.

greebo
01-25-2013, 07:14 AM
Forgive me if this has been discussed, but I was wondering if anyone knew anything about Rand's status with the creator or whatever? My sister has my book right now, but I'm thinking I remember rand speaking with THE VOICE (?). Everything about this was RAFO'd, but I can't help but feel I "R"ed, but never really "FO"ed.

The Unreasoner
01-25-2013, 02:11 PM
Forgive me if this has been discussed, but I was wondering if anyone knew anything about Rand's status with the creator or whatever? My sister has my book right now, but I'm thinking I remember rand speaking with THE VOICE (?). Everything about this was RAFO'd, but I can't help but feel I "R"ed, but never really "FO"ed.
What do you mean by 'status'?

Anyway, I wonder about numbers: Only 400 Ayyad? Didn't the Shaido alone have about that many women channelers? Since Shara is larger and (presumably) has a greater density of water and other resources, what's the deal there?

Dom
01-25-2013, 03:49 PM
What do you mean by 'status'?

Anyway, I wonder about numbers: Only 400 Ayyad? Didn't the Shaido alone have about that many women channelers? Since Shara is larger and (presumably) has a greater density of water and other resources, what's the deal there?

Apparently (dixit Brandon), Demandred had behind several factions of Sharans but not nearly all of them or even close.

He wouldn't say much more, probably because the details are in River of Souls.

hippie-joe
01-27-2013, 04:15 PM
ok a few things.
did i some how miss who killed asmodean?

i saw it asked on the first page of posts but didn't see an answer or idea about it; what was the deal with rand imagining his pipe lit and then it was?

and finally did we ever figure out the body swap and why rand feels moridin stab his own hand? again i know it was mentioned earlier but i didn't see anyone address it. i know they touched balefire and somehow had a connection with each other but that never really made sence to me. yet some how i wasn't surprised when they swapped bodies. iirc seems like it was a viewing or something?

Terez
01-27-2013, 05:08 PM
ok a few things.
did i some how miss who killed asmodean?
Yes, look in the TOM glossary.

hippie-joe
01-27-2013, 05:47 PM
Yes, look in the TOM glossary.

ah thank you. do we know why she killed him?

Davian93
01-27-2013, 06:00 PM
ah thank you. do we know why she killed him?

Not really other than he was a target of opportunity and he could have theoretically blown her cover to Rand had he been let go there. She probably didnt want Rand knowing she was snooping around in Caemlyn.

Tollingtoy
01-28-2013, 07:25 PM
Not really other than he was a target of opportunity and he could have theoretically blown her cover to Rand had he been let go there. She probably didnt want Rand knowing she was snooping around in Caemlyn.

I recall someone theorizing that she was concerned about him telling Rand that she was set up in Arad Doman, if I remember correctly we were either shown or given information that Asmodean had been there

Terez
01-28-2013, 08:11 PM
He did tell Rand she was in Arad Doman. So she was too late to prevent that, but yes, that's the most obvious motive.

Davian93
01-28-2013, 08:48 PM
He did tell Rand she was in Arad Doman. So she was too late to prevent that, but yes, that's the most obvious motive.

I think the "he might go running off to tell Rand & Co that she's there in Caemlyn is also a big motive...other than it just being Graendal and her wanting to knock off another Forsaken who was in disgrace at the time.

jameshazza
01-28-2013, 11:40 PM
Did Egwene really have to die?
Still bitter about that. Oh well, at least she went out in style and was, thankfully after TOM, given some decent channeling scenes.

Was nobody else expecting her to face Demandred though, I felt like it was bulding up to that on 3 seperate occasions? Also Vora's Wand didn't really seem as great in this one, I get that they become tired but struggling against Taim?

I've literally just finished it 15 minutes ago so I'm not sure what my main questions are now.

Oh, did nobody else feel that the implication was Elayne would be giving birth to Birgitte? Or maybe when Birgitte said 'soon' she meant the moment she left.

EDIT: Completely unrelated but everyone keeps mentioning the encyclopedia, I thought that was a LONG way away. Or are people merely pointing to it considering there's nowhere else to look at this stage?

GonzoTheGreat
01-29-2013, 04:14 AM
I recall someone theorizing that she was concerned about him telling Rand that she was set up in Arad Doman, if I remember correctly we were either shown or given information that Asmodean had been there
Actually, the explanation that makes the most sense is that it was pure coincidence.
Later on, in Illian, we see her snooping around there, trying to get as many goodies as she can while dodging Rand and his Asha'man after he has killed Sammael. It makes sense that she had done the same in Caemlyn after Rahvin snuffed it. But on that occasion, she was surprised by Asmodean, who hadn't expected to meet her there either. Both were startled, Graendal recovered sooner, and Asmodean did not recover at all.

Also Vora's Wand didn't really seem as great in this one, I get that they become tired but struggling against Taim?
It was not just Taim, though. It was Taim plus the sa'angreal that Demandred had loaned to him. That sa'angreal was more powerful than Callandor, according to Lanfear (TSR, Ch. 9), so it was probably stronger than Vora's sa'angreal too. Combined with the fact that Taim was significantly stronger than Egwene, that made it a bit of a difficult fight for her.

jameshazza
01-29-2013, 04:14 PM
Actually, the explanation that makes the most sense is that it was pure coincidence.
Later on, in Illian, we see her snooping around there, trying to get as many goodies as she can while dodging Rand and his Asha'man after he has killed Sammael. It makes sense that she had done the same in Caemlyn after Rahvin snuffed it. But on that occasion, she was surprised by Asmodean, who hadn't expected to meet her there either. Both were startled, Graendal recovered sooner, and Asmodean did not recover at all.


It was not just Taim, though. It was Taim plus the sa'angreal that Demandred had loaned to him. That sa'angreal was more powerful than Callandor, according to Lanfear (TSR, Ch. 9), so it was probably stronger than Vora's sa'angreal too. Combined with the fact that Taim was significantly stronger than Egwene, that made it a bit of a difficult fight for her.

I was referring to the fight before that, she had just bested him before he travelled away using the True Power. Although it seemed a mightier struggle than it should have. Then he went to get Demandred's sa'angreal as he was furious she bested him. I'm only nitpicking though, over all I thought her channeling sequences were pretty impressive.

Dom
01-29-2013, 04:31 PM
Did Egwene really have to die?

Well... her exchange with Rand from the afterlife proved pretty important to his final victory. She pretty much changed the way he was looking at things.


Thematically it was also well done.

TagCdog
01-29-2013, 10:22 PM
I have two big questions.

1. Wasn't Alivia supposed to help Rand die? I don't remember her around at all.

2. Regarding Asmodean's death, I listened to the audiobook. Is the answer to who killed him in the book's glossary? I saw in an earlier post it was Graendal. Is that confirmed and does this so called glossary clear up a lot of other things like this?

Ieyasu
01-29-2013, 10:27 PM
I have two big questions.

1. Wasn't Alivia supposed to help Rand die? I don't remember her around at all.

She did. She laid out his clothes, sword, sack of money, and horse for him to run away in his brand new Moridin body... while the Dragon's body was burned.



2. Regarding Asmodean's death, I listened to the audiobook. Is the answer to who killed him in the book's glossary? I saw in an earlier post it was Graendal. Is that confirmed and does this so called glossary clear up a lot of other things like this?

so called? You Moridin now? ;) Welcome to TL!

Yes the glossary flat out said Graendal did it. No, it did not provide any other details, however, there are some interview quotes that provide a bit more. Also, it is heavily implied and referred to when Moridin and Graendal were speaking after the death of Halmina.

TagCdog
01-29-2013, 10:31 PM
Thanks Ieyasu! It all makes sense now :)

I say so called because I was mad that they didn't provide something like a glossary PDF with the audiobook. Sometimes they even read them out on other books.

Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon
01-30-2013, 03:27 PM
She did. She laid out his clothes, sword, sack of money, and horse for him to run away in his brand new Moridin body... while the Dragon's body was burned.

I have to say that I do not consider that to be "helping him die" at all. It's helping him live. Maybe if she had laid out his old stuff on the funeral pyre, but laying out his new stuff for his new life is helping him live. Yes, I will argue the semantics forever; but, think about it: she didn't even do anything to help the world believe that Rand was dead.

I'm not trying to contradict Ieyasu here, I agree that is how Min's viewing worked out. However, I call BS. (And, yes, I also find it ironic that in a context where fans often refer to authors by their initials, Brandon Sanderson hasn't gone with something other than 'BS.')

Anyway, the whole Alivia thing was lacking in AMoL. I only remember her being mentioned once or twice before that moment in the tent. I was really excited to find out what she would do. She was a big deal. Super powerful, not necessarily trustworthy but somewhat of a fanatic, guaranteed to somehow help Rand die... then, she's only mentioned in passing a couple times?

It almost felt like, at the end of the whole thing, Brandon was like, "Oh, crap... I gotta get Alivia in here somehow. Well, that's good enough. Done."

And, please note, I have mostly enjoyed the work that Brandon did on the WoT. This one thing just bugs me.

Dom
01-30-2013, 04:42 PM
I have to say that I do not consider that to be "helping him die" at all. It's helping him live. Maybe if she had laid out his old stuff on the funeral pyre, but laying out his new stuff for his new life is helping him live. Yes, I will argue the semantics forever; but, think about it: she didn't even do anything to help the world believe that Rand was dead.

I'm not trying to contradict Ieyasu here, I agree that is how Min's viewing worked out. However, I call BS. (And, yes, I also find it ironic that in a context where fans often refer to authors by their initials, Brandon Sanderson hasn't gone with something other than 'BS.')

Anyway, the whole Alivia thing was lacking in AMoL. I only remember her being mentioned once or twice before that moment in the tent. I was really excited to find out what she would do. She was a big deal. Super powerful, not necessarily trustworthy but somewhat of a fanatic, guaranteed to somehow help Rand die... then, she's only mentioned in passing a couple times?

It almost felt like, at the end of the whole thing, Brandon was like, "Oh, crap... I gotta get Alivia in here somehow. Well, that's good enough. Done."

And, please note, I have mostly enjoyed the work that Brandon did on the WoT. This one thing just bugs me.

The Alivia stuff is mostly found in the parts fully/mostly written by RJ, so Brandon isn't to blame for this.

She didn't really help Rand die (or even live), she helped him get away with the "murder" of the Dragon Reborn persona by setting out for him what he needed (clothes and money) to be able to escape unseen (except by Cadsuane and his three lovers) during the funeral.

Southpaw2012
01-30-2013, 05:27 PM
The Alivia stuff is mostly found in the parts fully/mostly written by RJ, so Brandon isn't to blame for this.

She didn't really help Rand die (or even live), she helped him get away with the "murder" of the Dragon Reborn persona by setting out for him what he needed (clothes and money) to be able to escape unseen (except by Cadsuane and his three lovers) during the funeral.


She still technically "helped him die." By giving him new clothes and a way out, he was able to escape without notice with the exception of Cadsuane as his real body burns. If he didn't have clothes and money he would've ran out naked which would draw attention.

Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon
01-30-2013, 07:59 PM
Okay, fine, I won't argue the semantics forever because that'll just be stubborn. However, even though you both made good points, I would suggest that had Alivia failed to provide Rand with the new gear, and then everyone saw naked Moridin trying to "escape," there's a good chance someone would kill him - and that would've been helping Rand die. As it stands, by providing Rand with a means to get away & continue his life (or, in a lot of ways, start his life), Alivia helped him live.

And, without getting into a philosophical discussion of "identity," I definitely believe that the entity who left that tent in Moridin's body was Rand. But, Dom, you did make me realize that it was not the Dragon Reborn. So, I would concede that this works if Min's viewing was of Alivia helping the Dragon Reborn die and, since Rand was the Dragon Reborn at the time of the viewing, then Min could've just meant one persona of his - with or without realizing that herself.

Also, it is more disappointing to me to know that the Alivia bits came from RJ because it's the general absence of Alivia that bothers me. So, it was easier to think that RJ had plans for her and BS just didn't know them or get them in the book, for whatever reason.

What I need to do is read the last 3 books again, together, as one book, and remind myself that AMoL is really Part 3 of the last book, rather than being a complete last book in and of itself.

Marie Curie 7
01-30-2013, 09:48 PM
A dozen posts about angreal and sa'angreal were moved to a separate thread (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=7830) for continued discussion. Enjoy!

Dom
01-30-2013, 09:49 PM
But, Dom, you did make me realize that it was not the Dragon Reborn. So, I would concede that this works if Min's viewing was of Alivia helping the Dragon Reborn die and, since Rand was the Dragon Reborn at the time of the viewing, then Min could've just meant one persona of his - with or without realizing that herself.

Yeah. I'm not a big Min "literalist". She explains what she knows as she understands it, so some of her formulations are ackward at times. This is one of them.

Also, it is more disappointing to me to know that the Alivia bits came from RJ because it's the general absence of Alivia that bothers me. So, it was easier to think that RJ had plans for her and BS just didn't know them or get them in the book, for whatever reason.

Brandon actually hinted that RJ left notes that some of Min's Viewings were fairly mundane, and this was one of those.

In all fairness, RJ didn't make as much of a fuss about Alivia or this Viewing in the books as we did.

Oh well... she'll be one more clue for Nynaeve to puzzle out the truth, when she realizes Alivia appeared to have played no role "to help Rand die". RJ made it fairly obvious Nynaeve will discover the truth soon enough. For her, Tam, Moiraine etc., the secret just had to hold until Rand got away. If all his friends, Tam etc. had known, rumors would forcibly have started. Already the three lovers didn't play their part well, and this got immediately noticed, and commented on, by the likes of Gregorin.

Southpaw2012
01-30-2013, 10:16 PM
Yeah. I'm not a big Min "literalist". She explains what she knows as she understands it, so some of her formulations are ackward at times. This is one of them.



Brandon actually hinted that RJ left notes that some of Min's Viewings were fairly mundane, and this was one of those.

In all fairness, RJ didn't make as much of a fuss about Alivia or this Viewing in the books as we did.

Oh well... she'll be one more clue for Nynaeve to puzzle out the truth, when she realizes Alivia appeared to have played no role "to help Rand die". RJ made it fairly obvious Nynaeve will discover the truth soon enough. For her, Tam, Moiraine etc., the secret just had to hold until Rand got away. If all his friends, Tam etc. had known, rumors would forcibly have started. Already the three lovers didn't play their part well, and this got immediately noticed, and commented on, by the likes of Gregorin.


haha so very true. They failed big time. I mean you would think that at least Min could have cried for a bit. Aviendha is one thing since Aiel are a little more tough and Elayne being a queen but seriously, Min showed no reaction. I am really surprised people weren't asking question after question about what was going on.

Cor Shan
02-04-2013, 01:26 AM
Rand singing in Ebou Dar, which is surrounded by Tinkers - This was the Song, from the AoL right?

Rand al'Fain
02-04-2013, 02:51 AM
Rand singing in Ebou Dar, which is surrounded by Tinkers - This was the Song, from the AoL right?

Not so much "The Song", as Mat recognized it (no memories of the AOL), but Rand has the Voice, the ability to make things grow by singing. Like Ogier Tree Singing basically.

SauceyBlueConfetti
02-04-2013, 09:08 AM
Rand singing in Ebou Dar, which is surrounded by Tinkers - This was the Song, from the AoL right?


AND. To clarify for everyone who asks the Tinker question...it had been said previously the Tinkers will never find their Song. The growing Song and the Tinkers are two different things. I may or may not be too lazy to look it up in the database.


Ok , here

Your search for Tinker song yielded 1 results
1

INTERVIEW: 2013
Twitter 2013 (WoT) (Verbatim)
JAY FONSECA (23 JANUARY 2013)
So I always wondered... what ever happened to the Tinkers' song? Did I miss a resolution to that arc?
BRANDON SANDERSON (23 JANUARY 2013)
By specific instruction from RJ, the Tinkers have not found their song as of the end of A Memory of Light.

BRANDON SANDERSON
The song of growing is not their "Song." The Song is a much more deep and philosophical concept, perhaps unattainable.

TJ
Do you imagine that Rand teaches "the song" to the Tu'athan after the events of A Memory of Light?

BRANDON SANDERSON
Rand does not know The Song. Anything he'd try to teach them, they would not accept as The Song.

AARON OSTER
Wait, are you saying Rand's song that Mat recognized wasn't the Tinkers' song?

BRANDON SANDERSON
The Tinker "Song" is an ideal that goes far beyond any song that has actually ever existed.

Cor Shan
02-05-2013, 04:37 PM
Well then. I had always assumed the Tinker's song was the Growing song, simply because it made sense w/r/t the Jenn Aiel/Rhuidean visions, etc.

Clearly, I was wrong.

Dom
02-05-2013, 05:06 PM
Well then. I had always assumed the Tinker's song was the Growing song, simply because it made sense w/r/t the Jenn Aiel/Rhuidean visions, etc.

Clearly, I was wrong.

Yes and no.

It's a jumbled aggregate of Seed Singing and other Songs, AOL ideals, the purpose of the Da'shain, the purpose behind the Way of the Leaf etc. Almost the whole AOL society and its beliefs and ideals, in the end.

If Rand taught them a Growing Song/Seed Singing, they would not recognize it as "The Song". The Song to them is something much larger that in itself is believed able bring back the Age of Legends/the Old Days. They no longer understand it's not a song they're looking for but a whole culture they've long lost and built a myth around.

Rand wouldn't readily understand what they mean by "The Song" either. If he has still his LTT memories (which he may not have anymore, it's not clear), he could puzzle it out living among Tinkers for a substantial while and coming to understand that they built this whole myth of The Song, and while he could then explain a lot about the Da'shain, he would also have to make them understand that it's beyond them to bring back the Old Days (and beside, Rand seems to think the Third Age shouldn't aim to return to the AOL beliefs and culture. He's very criticial of the AOL).

But they wouldn't easily accept they're wrong and The Song is an abstract concept, not something they could find.

Marie Curie 7
02-05-2013, 09:12 PM
Well then. I had always assumed the Tinker's song was the Growing song, simply because it made sense w/r/t the Jenn Aiel/Rhuidean visions, etc.

Clearly, I was wrong.

RJ gave a better answer about the Song, in my opinion, than Brandon, who sort of muddled it.

Interview: Aug 27th, 1999
Melbourne Film Festival - Steven Cooper (Paraphrased) (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=648#1)

Troy Terry
Seriously, though, any bets on whether the Tinkers will ever find the Song? I bet it's the harvest song from Rand's Aiel memories.

Steven Cooper
I asked RJ about this when he was in Melbourne last week, and (amazingly) got a straight answer.

Robert Jordan
The Song the Tinkers are seeking is the song Rand heard in Rhuidean—or, to be exact, the memories of that song and others like it have become merged, over the years, into the concept of one mystical Song.

Hugoye
02-06-2013, 04:19 PM
Just finished the book about 20 minutes ago. Still digesting.

Here are some questions:

1) What's the story with Rand "thinking" his pipe lit?

2) Do we know of any new Heroes added to the Horn? (Which is my sneaky way of asking if Egwene qualifies...it's funny, I spent so much of the series being peeved at her that I didn't realize how badly I would miss her once she was gone)

3) Is there any hint as to what Hawkwing discussed with Tuon (or whether they met at all)?

4) Do we ever find out who Gaidal Cain is? Birgitte says he'll be a few years older than she now, so does this make it likely that it's Jur Grady's son?

5) So if it wasn't Sorilea, how did Semiraghe get her hands on the domination band?

6) What is the Wyld? Was there a Wyld prophecy? Was Demandred the true fulfillment of it?

I'll probably have a million more later, but that's it for now I suppose.

Demon
02-06-2013, 04:42 PM
Just finished the book about 20 minutes ago. Still digesting.

Here are some questions:

1) What's the story with Rand "thinking" his pipe lit?

2) Do we know of any new Heroes added to the Horn? (Which is my sneaky way of asking if Egwene qualifies...it's funny, I spent so much of the series being peeved at her that I didn't realize how badly I would miss her once she was gone)

3) Is there any hint as to what Hawkwing discussed with Tuon (or whether they met at all)?

4) Do we ever find out who Gaidal Cain is? Birgitte says he'll be a few years older than she now, so does this make it likely that it's Jur Grady's son?

5) So if it wasn't Sorilea, how did Semiraghe get her hands on the domination band?

6) What is the Wyld? Was there a Wyld prophecy? Was Demandred the true fulfillment of it?

I'll probably have a million more later, but that's it for now I suppose.

1. No one is sure. Multiple theories of course. Rand saw the pattern, so he gained understanding of it that allowed him to do that. What he did with the true power and the one power created some new power. He's using the creators essence, like the true power does with the dark one. Etc.

2.All we find out is that Jain Farstrider had become one.

3.I dont think so.

4.I dont think we find out.

5.I honestly have no idea with this one.

6.I think its suspected to be the Sharan version of the Dragon Reborn, and Demandred just sorta got in the way of that. Im not sure.

Cor Shan
02-06-2013, 06:41 PM
Or that Jain Farstrider was already one.

SauceyBlueConfetti
02-06-2013, 08:06 PM
4. In the interview forum Marie posted the latest. Brandon knows who Gaidal is so I am hopeful the answer will come in questioning Harriet or in the encyclopedia. Check out that forum for lots of fun stuff

Kimon
02-06-2013, 10:43 PM
2) Do we know of any new Heroes added to the Horn? (Which is my sneaky way of asking if Egwene qualifies...it's funny, I spent so much of the series being peeved at her that I didn't realize how badly I would miss her once she was gone)



If Egwene had been, one would think that she, like Birgitte, would have made a re-appearance after the Horn was blown.

There is still the possibility that some of the living were Heroes who had been spun out to take a direct role. Mat, Perrin, Moiraine, Nynaeve, and Lan have all been far more heroic than Egwene. Unclear, however, whether any of them (I don't think we've even ever gotten definitive answers on Mat and Perrin...) were even Heroes. Personally, I think it would have been a nice touch had Verin answered the Horn's call...

Marie Curie 7
02-07-2013, 12:00 AM
If Egwene had been, one would think that she, like Birgitte, would have made a re-appearance after the Horn was blown.

There is still the possibility that some of the living were Heroes who had been spun out to take a direct role. Mat, Perrin, Moiraine, Nynaeve, and Lan have all been far more heroic than Egwene. Unclear, however, whether any of them (I don't think we've even ever gotten definitive answers on Mat and Perrin...) were even Heroes. Personally, I think it would have been a nice touch had Verin answered the Horn's call...

The Heroes confirmed that Mat was not one of them:

AMOL
Ch. 43 - A Field of Glass

Mat rode with the Heroes of the Horn. Apparently, having once been the Hornsounder gave him a special place among them. They joined him, called to him, spoke to him as if they knew him. They looked so, well, heroic, tall in their saddles and surrounded by a mist that glowed against the breaking dawn's light.

Amid the fighting, he finally asked the question that had been haunting him for a long while now. "I'm not bloody . . . one of you, am I?" he asked Hend the Striker. "You know . . . since heroes are born sometimes, then die and . . . do whatever you do."

The big man laughed, riding a bay horse that could have almost gone shoulder-to-shoulder with a Seanchan boar-horse. "I knew that you would ask this thing, Gambler!"

"Well, then you should bloody well have an answer prepared." Mat felt his face flush as he anticipated the reply.

"No, you are not one of us," Hend said. "Be at ease. Though you have done more than enough to earn a place, you have not been chosen. I do not know why."

"Maybe because I don't like the idea of having to hop whenever anyone blows on that bloody instrument."

"Maybe!" Hend grinned and galloped toward a line of Sharan spears.

Weird Harold
02-07-2013, 12:00 AM
(I don't think we've even ever gotten definitive answers on Mat and Perrin...)

Mat asked and got a definitive "No" from one of the Heroes. Perrin is still open to debate, but Egwene and Mat are NOT HotH.

2) Do we know of any new Heroes added to the Horn? (Which is my sneaky way of asking if Egwene qualifies...

As noted above, Egwene would have showed up when the Horn was blown -- she was dead longer than Birgitte and Birgitte showed up.

...so does this make it likely that it's Jur Grady's son?

Any child born before Gaidal Cain was spun out (or last seen in T'A'R) is too old to be Gaidal Cain -- that rules out Olver, Ju Grady's son, and any child old enough to crawl.

fionwe1987
02-07-2013, 12:34 AM
As noted above, Egwene would have showed up when the Horn was blown -- she was dead longer than Birgitte and Birgitte showed up.


Ahhh... but Birgette is a special case. She was never really born into this world. The only reason she survived her expulsion from TAR was because of her bond to Elayne. I don't think we can use Birgette as proof that as soon as someone dies, they're ready to be sent back by the Horn. Someone needs to ask Brandon how long after death a Hero soul ends up in TAR.

Weird Harold
02-07-2013, 02:48 AM
Ahhh... but Birgette is a special case. She was never really born into this world. The only reason she survived her expulsion from TAR was because of her bond to Elayne. I don't think we can use Birgette as proof that as soon as someone dies, they're ready to be sent back by the Horn. Someone needs to ask Brandon how long after death a Hero soul ends up in TAR.
Noal hadn't been dead much longer than Egwene and he showed up.

Birgitte might well be a "special case" since she showed up minutes after her death, but was "being spun out" minutes after the last battle. She's still the best example we're likely to ever get that the Call to the Last Battle brings every Soul eligible -- no matter how long they've been dead.

GonzoTheGreat
02-07-2013, 04:11 AM
6.I think its suspected to be the Sharan version of the Dragon Reborn, and Demandred just sorta got in the way of that. Im not sure.
The closest we have to that, as far as I know, is this bit:
"There is never fighting in Shara, Rand al’Thor. It is said the Trolloc Wars infested them" – Trollocs had entered the Aiel Waste too; since then the Trolloc name for the Aiel Waste was the Dying Ground – "but if there has been one battle since, no word of it has come to the tradeholds. Not much word of anything outside the holdwalls does come inside. They say their land has always been one, not many as here, always at peace. When you came from Rhuidean as the Car’a’carn, word of you spread, and of your title among the wetlanders here. The Dragon Reborn. Word traveled to the tradeholds along the Great Rift and the Cliffs of Dawn." Rhuarc’s eyes were calm and steady; this did not trouble him. "Now word comes back across the Three-fold Land. There is fighting in Shara, and Sharamen in the tradeholds ask when the Dragon Reborn will Break the World."

fionwe1987
02-07-2013, 09:29 AM
Noal hadn't been dead much longer than Egwene and he showed up.
He was dead weeks to a month before Egwene. That is, indeed, much longer than Egwene.
Birgitte might well be a "special case" since she showed up minutes after her death, but was "being spun out" minutes after the last battle. She's still the best example we're likely to ever get that the Call to the Last Battle brings every Soul eligible -- no matter how long they've been dead.
No she's not. She's hardly a typical case.

codetoast
02-07-2013, 10:47 AM
calian and shivan, were they born at the end of the age. As far as I know, elaine hasnt given birth by the end of the age, so they can't be her twins, however, supposedly the twins were of some importance to the dark one. I thought Luc and tigraine, but now im kind of doubting it as isam never mentioned it...but i dont remember seeing either during the merillor fight. any thoughts?

Also, was the man aviendha met running with the wolves, noam or elias? I thought noam from the physical description, but he seemed to carry a conversation alright.

And for how did semirhage get her hand on the domination band. I think when lylwin/egeanin, gave the band over to her superior seanchean(covered in her meeting with nyneave) it eventually got back to suroth who gave it to the forsaken to make copies/use...etc.

Also, we're pretty sure gaidel is less than 3 years old since he was born during the events of the 4th/5th book, but birgitte says she will be only a few years younger than he.

Also, can we assume shaidar haran is dead, hes kind of avatar to dark one.

Last question, Jayne supposedly was a pawn of graendal but seemed to have beaten his compulsion when he "died clean". I remember something about RJ confirming that it was jayne who was in graendal's palace? Is this true, how did he escape compulsion/ wind up in ebu dar? was he found in shara? was it sammeal and graendals kidnapping/killing of the sharan monarchy that left the window of oppurtunity for demandred to take power?

Between Sekarnen and the massive amounts of channelers in shara, its amazing graendal dismissed them so easily early on in the series as unimportant to the last battle.

fionwe1987
02-07-2013, 11:00 AM
But . . . what was that weave? It was another that Logain did not recognize. The lightning hit Demandred, but vanished, somehow sent down into the ground and dissipated. Such a simple weave of Air and Earth, but it rendered the lightning useless.

Egwene immediately brought up a spire of molten iron and cooled it to
draw the lightning that fell a moment later.

Are Demandred and Egwene doing the same thing to the lightning?

GonzoTheGreat
02-07-2013, 11:23 AM
Also, was the man aviendha met running with the wolves, noam or elias? I thought noam from the physical description, but he seemed to carry a conversation alright.
Probably Elias who hadn't shaved for a while.

And for how did semirhage get her hand on the domination band. I think when lylwin/egeanin, gave the band over to her superior seanchean(covered in her meeting with nyneave) it eventually got back to suroth who gave it to the forsaken to make copies/use...etc.
The problem is: how did she get such a band when she captured Rand with it?
The ones that she had had with her during the meeting where she impersonated Tuon had been taken away, and that's a detail that can't be just ignored.
She used the domination band that Cadsuane had in her room, but that one had been protected. The question is how those protections had been undone.

Are Demandred and Egwene doing the same thing to the lightning?
Basically, yes, though Demandred doesn't need the physical prop of an actual lightning rod such as Egwene uses. By the way, Egwene would have been better off using copper than iron, but she didn't seem to know about conductivity.

fionwe1987
02-07-2013, 11:30 AM
Basically, yes, though Demandred doesn't need the physical prop of an actual lightning rod such as Egwene uses. By the way, Egwene would have been better off using copper than iron, but she didn't seem to know about conductivity.
Copper is rarer than iron. She'd likely have to mine deeper to get enough copper. She'd do even better with gold or silver, which are even rarer.

maacaroni
02-08-2013, 06:09 AM
1) What's the story with Rand "thinking" his pipe lit?

Deliberately ambiguous ending by RJ. He wanted us to discuss it. Your guess is as good as mine. I think it was the pattern.

2) Do we know of any new Heroes added to the Horn? (Which is my sneaky way of asking if Egwene qualifies...it's funny, I spent so much of the series being peeved at her that I didn't realize how badly I would miss her once she was gone)

Jain is the only one we know.

3) Is there any hint as to what Hawkwing discussed with Tuon (or whether they met at all)?

Deliberately ambiguous. The obvious discussion is about the a'dam and how horrible a tool it is. The point about Hawkwing was he only became malevolent towards Aes Sedai during his black years (after the murder of his first wife) and then during the influence of Jalwin Moerad (Ishamael).

4) Do we ever find out who Gaidal Cain is? Birgitte says he'll be a few years older than she now, so does this make it likely that it's Jur Grady's son?

We supposedly will find out in the Encyclopaedia.

5) So if it wasn't Sorilea, how did Semiraghe get her hands on the domination band?

Elza Penfell is the obvious culprit!

6) What is the Wyld? Was there a Wyld prophecy? Was Demandred the true fulfillment of it?

We will find out in the short story compilation, I would imagine.

lord Mordeth
02-08-2013, 07:12 AM
Any child born before Gaidal Cain was spun out (or last seen in T'A'R) is too old to be Gaidal Cain -- that rules out Olver, Ju Grady's son, and any child old enough to crawl.

Time flows differently in T'A'R, so the child doesn't need to have been born after the events of TSR in the waking world. Olver would have been a stretch even without RJ's denial, but Grady's son, who I think is two, would fit the logic.

David Selig
02-08-2013, 07:35 AM
Time doesn't flow backwards in TAR, so Gaidal can only be about one year old at most at the end of AMOL.

Grady's kid is 4, so no way.

Terez
02-08-2013, 09:30 AM
Yeah, RJ specifically said (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=161#23) it doesn't flow backward in his explanation about why it couldn't be Olver. That has to apply to Grady's son, and would even if Rand was very wrong about his age.

Time in Tel'aran'rhiod and the real world run at different rates, but it never runs backwards. You may spend an hour in Tel'aran'rhiod, and a day has passed when you get back, or you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on Monday.

Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon
02-08-2013, 11:46 AM
Personally, I think it would have been a nice touch had Verin answered the Horn's call...

Argh! While that never crossed my mind until you said it, I am now a little depressed that it didn't happen. I like the idea of a double-agent HotH, and I flaming love Verin.

And, personally, I think if anyone's gonna be a HotH, it's Lan. No question. If Lan's not a Hero after finally giving up his personal crusade to help save the world, then I'm just gonna have to find my way to TAR and have a little chat with this Robert Jordan character.

SauceyBlueConfetti
02-08-2013, 11:53 AM
Argh! While that never crossed my mind until you said it, I am now a little depressed that it didn't happen. I like the idea of a double-agent HotH, and I flaming love Verin.

And, personally, I think if anyone's gonna be a HotH, it's Lan. No question. If Lan's not a Hero after finally giving up his personal crusade to help save the world, then I'm just gonna have to find my way to TAR and have a little chat with this Robert Jordan character.

She did. In the cave with Rand. Verin = Nakomi

Rand al'Fain
02-09-2013, 12:06 PM
Since Lanfear died in TAR at SG, does that mean she will never be reborn or what?

Dom
02-09-2013, 01:28 PM
Since Lanfear died in TAR at SG, does that mean she will never be reborn or what?

If she knows what she's talking about, no. She told Perrin it didn't work that way with humans.

She may have been lying. He didn't want to give what he thought was the "final death" to red veils, and she wanted him to kill them.

Terez
02-09-2013, 02:44 PM
The final death seems to be only for those who are already dead. According to Birgitte, it does work that way for the dead heroes.

Dom
02-09-2013, 05:01 PM
The final death seems to be only for those who are already dead. According to Birgitte, it does work that way for the dead heroes.


I don't if Birgitte has it right either.

RJ seemed to say you can't be unbound from the Horn. Seeking the final death would be a way to end it.

I think it's a mystery no one really knows the answer to, no more the wolves than the Heroes or Lanfear. They're all just guessing.

Terez
02-09-2013, 07:04 PM
Eh, seeking the final death is kind of an extreme way to try to get out of being bound to the Horn; I doubt he thought of it in those terms. The logistics make more sense to me if it only applies to those who are already dead, but maybe that's because I watched too much DBZ. :) (And then all the WoT quotes support the idea.)

Neilbert
02-09-2013, 07:42 PM
The final death seems to be only for those who are already dead. According to Birgitte, it does work that way for the dead heroes.

Can you toss out that quote?

Terez
02-09-2013, 07:53 PM
"None of them have seen you?" she asked anxiously. Birgitte was more vulnerable than herself in many ways, despite her knowledge of Tel'aran'rhiod. She had never been able to channel; any of the Forsaken could destroy her as if crushing an ant, without breaking stride. And if she were destroyed here, there would be no rebirth for her ever again..

Neilbert
02-10-2013, 12:16 AM
Seems like a complicated mess. Too many ideas pulling in too many directions.

One must ask how Birgitte knows she can permadie. Has it happened before to a Hero? Are new ones added to replace ones that die?

It could be a lie. Or misinformation, or an assumption. Don't meddle in the affairs of mortals or you could die forever. But who would have motive to spread such a thing. Fear from observing wolves? Is there a wolfbrother Hero? Maybe the wolves told them.

Time as a circle adds its own complications.

E: going to land on permanent death is impossible short of the Dark One winning. The statement preceding the thought about Birgittes mortality is so obviously untrue at this point that the juxtaposition implies that both statements are equally true.

maacaroni
02-11-2013, 05:08 PM
Question: Why did Taim not smash the seals when he had them?

Rand al'Fain
02-11-2013, 09:15 PM
Question: Why did Taim not smash the seals when he had them?

Dramatic effect and timing.

Weird Harold
02-11-2013, 09:52 PM
Question: Why did Taim not smash the seals when he had them?

Dramatic effect and timing.

The Seals had to be broken at a specific time in order for the DO to be released/imprisoned. Breaking them too early could/would have resulted in a draw.

In a more literary argument, why did someone else have to break the Seals? It would have been more "dramatic" if Rand swept the old Seals away when he reformed the DO's prison.

fionwe1987
02-11-2013, 10:54 PM
In a more literary argument, why did someone else have to break the Seals? It would have been more "dramatic" if Rand swept the old Seals away when he reformed the DO's prison.
Because it would have defeated the central theme of balance. What was needed was for men and women to work together for the plan to bear fruition. When it is just one or the other, there is imbalance, and in the past, that has resulted in phyrric victories only. Saidin and saidar working together can achieve much more than either can alone. Men and women working together achieved more than when they tried to work alone.

Dom
02-11-2013, 11:14 PM
Question: Why did Taim not smash the seals when he had them?

Shai'tan knew Taim had the Seals, he gained favor from that.

Rand figured out the only way Shai'tan could win was if the Dragon soul made the choice for humanity to give up, broken, or to willlingly embrace the Shadow.

Either way, the right time for the Dark One to order Taim to break the seals never came. He had not broken Rand nor convinced him to let him win. Breaking the seals would have put an end to their philosophical debate as Rand seing that stepped back to return in the Pattern and put in motion an ending. It wasn't Shai'tan's best play.

By the time Shai'tan should have broken the seals and struck at Rand with all he had because breaking him was his only choice left, Taim was dead, Alanna had released the bond and Moridin had screwed everything up by taking the bait of Callandor. And the Light had the seals.

With the Horn of Valere there and ready to bring Rand back from the dead for a final round with this time his memories from the Ages, I'm not sure Lanfear's "last chance" plan would have worked either.

Cortar
02-11-2013, 11:53 PM
I know that the ability to channel is tied to the soul, but did we ever, in any book with Moridin, see him channel Saidin?

Ieyasu
02-12-2013, 12:33 AM
I know that the ability to channel is tied to the soul, but did we ever, in any book with Moridin, see him channel Saidin?

Yes, we did.

EDIT: More as Ishmael than Moridin.

Cortar
02-12-2013, 12:42 AM
Yes, we did.

EDIT: More as Ishmael than Moridin.

Sorry, I meant in his Moridin body specifically.

GonzoTheGreat
02-12-2013, 04:00 AM
With the Horn of Valere there and ready to bring Rand back from the dead for a final round with this time his memories from the Ages, I'm not sure Lanfear's "last chance" plan would have worked either.
If the DO had managed to grab Rand's soul, then Rand probably would not have been called up by the Horn. After all, Rand would then still have been "alive", whatever that means in such a case.

SauceyBlueConfetti
02-12-2013, 10:59 AM
Don't have my book with me...when Perrin was finally at the point of killing Slayer, and flickering in and out of the dream world...I got the distinct impression he was also flipping between alternate realities (similar to the portal stone zooming with Rand way back in the day). I was talking to a friend about it and he didn't get that idea at all...anyone else? I took it as Perrin was actually killing Slayer in EVERY world, not just their current reality. (Does Slayer exist in all realities? Or is he "out of time"? I don't recall the answer to that)

So that then begs the question...was the Last Battle being fought, and in essence won, in every reality?

Just curious what everyone else took from that bit. I need to search the interviews for RJs comments as I vaguely recall him hitting on the topic of the Last Battle in all realms. But, as always, I could be 100% WRONG :D

Terez
02-12-2013, 11:09 AM
I think he was flipping in and out of parallel worlds, not mirror worlds (like Rand's experience). We know the Finns live in a parallel world, and the Dark One is a constant between all worlds, so it makes sense that the battle would occur in all worlds. And the flipping itself had little or nothing to do with Slayer; it was all about the location near the Bore.

SauceyBlueConfetti
02-12-2013, 11:17 AM
I think he was flipping in and out of parallel worlds, not mirror worlds (like Rand's experience). We know the Finns live in a parallel world, and the Dark One is a constant between all worlds, so it makes sense that the battle would occur in all worlds. And the flipping itself had little or nothing to do with Slayer; it was all about the location near the Bore.

I agree it didn't really have to do with Slayer, it was the Bore and Perrin 'learning' skills sort of as a combined result. But was that something Slayer could do already? Or was it unique to the situation/location?

Dom
02-12-2013, 11:52 AM
If the DO had managed to grab Rand's soul, then Rand probably would not have been called up by the Horn. After all, Rand would then still have been "alive", whatever that means in such a case.

I guess it would have been really easy to take some of Rand's blood while in the Pit and mindtrap him, or turn him into a Grey Man (they are strikingly similar to automatons in Shai'tan's versions of the pattern, as it happens).

A lot of things suggest that "grabbing Rand's soul" or turning him to the Shadow was either not so easy or would not have worked. We aren't privy to the "rules", but they seem exist to force Shai'tan to convince the Dragon to choose him, either by his arguments or by making him so desperate he gave up on Creation.

We don't even know how much damage balefire really does either, and if it could really reach the point of unravelling the Pattern or not (it's all purely theorical - it damages reality but how much they don't really know). The real purpose of Egwene's sacrifice was to make her, specifically, die so she could intervene at the critical moment with Rand from "beyond". She was more sacrificial lamb than savior, even though she made her sacrifice motivated by salvation.

But it really was up to Rand.

Dom
02-12-2013, 12:03 PM
But was that something Slayer could do already? Or was it unique to the situation/location?

We have no idea. It just happened around SG where the barriers between worlds had weakened to the point Perrin could perceive glimpses of the reflections of parralel worlds.

It's a maybe. Egwene thought that perhaps it could be possible to see the reflections of other worlds in TAR, and we know the TOG is connected to human TAR (but according to Birgitte, near impossible to exit from its reflection).

Then, even Moridin appears to have exited Sindhol through the Tear Doorway (which he destroyed after), so portals between parallel worlds are possible but it seems only the Sindholites know their secret, and it gives us no solid clue whether this can be done or not in TAR or if the nature of Perrin or Isam make it possible for them.

The worlds were merging, at SG, in AMOL and you could see this much better in TAR which dimensions reflect it all. It's pretty much all we know for sure. That, and there are all sort of barriers. Birgitte and dead wolves not seing one another etc. It may well be Egwene had a vague perception of other worlds being reflected but there was a barrier between them she could not have breached.

fionwe1987
02-13-2013, 09:16 AM
We don't even know how much damage balefire really does either, and if it could really reach the point of unravelling the Pattern or not (it's all purely theorical - it damages reality but how much they don't really know). The real purpose of Egwene's sacrifice was to make her, specifically, die so she could intervene at the critical moment with Rand from "beyond". She was more sacrificial lamb than savior, even though she made her sacrifice motivated by salvation.

Not hardly. We know from RJ that using enough balefire to kill the Dark One would destroy the Pattern. And we also have this:

Something trembled far to the north. Rand’s fight continued. The gaps in the land expanded. M’Hael and Demandreds balefire had done its work. The world here was crumbling. Black lines radiated across the Heights, and her mind’s eye saw them opening, the land shattering, and a void appearing here that sucked into it all life.

I doubt that was just unfounded fear. That she could actually feel Rand's fight with the DO only further establishes that Egwene does seem to have some sort of connection with the Pattern. It seems like Nynaeve's connection, where she feels coming events as storms, but less abstract and more of an actual realization of what's going on. And she clearly does seem to think that in some more time, the cracks would expand enough to open into the outer void, and destroy life.

Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon
02-13-2013, 07:18 PM
Other than granting him access to the True Power, was there any point or purpose behind making Taim Chosen rather than just letting him be a particularly badass Dreadlord?

That was something I felt was a bit lacking. It just never really clicked for me that he was Chosen. It felt like most of his scenes would've been the same if he was just a Dreadlord with enough power/strength to make the Forsaken think twice about treating him like a complete pawn.

Even in terms of parallels with other characters or other storylines, it just felt like a meaningless title.

Weird Harold
02-13-2013, 10:29 PM
Other than granting him access to the True Power, was there any point or purpose behind making Taim Chosen rather than just letting him be a particularly badass Dreadlord?

Chosen can command Shadowspawn without needing another Chosen to order them to follow orders.

Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon
02-14-2013, 12:06 PM
Chosen can command Shadowspawn without needing another Chosen to order them to follow orders.

Thanks, that does help some. However, I can't remember him actually commanding any Shadowspawn - just his Turned Asha'man... wait... yup, okay, so you're talking about the Myrddraal he used to Turn all those people, eh?

Did he command any Shadowspawn in battle?

(One of the reasons I asked this question is that I definitely read some of AMoL too fast for the sake of knowing what happens next, and I was hoping I just missed or forgot something... I'm back at Winter's Heart, where my re-read left off when AMoL was released, and I will re-read AMoL with more attention to detail, as soon as I get there.)

GonzoTheGreat
02-14-2013, 12:17 PM
He might have commanded some Trollocs not to eat him during the campaign against Lan. Come to think of it, it's possible that he was in charge of that campaign.

Marie Curie 7
02-15-2013, 01:47 PM
A number of posts related to discussion of Egwene have been moved to a new thread (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=7879). If you wish to continue the discussion, please take it there. Thanks.

DocteurPepeur
02-16-2013, 07:23 AM
Hi,
I wanted to know how the "bodyswap" between moridin and Rand happened, I guess it's because of the link there was between them two. And what was this new power Rand had at the end of the book, like what Perin could do in the World of Dreams but in the real world instead. Did he get this power by sealing the dark one again ? Is that because both the worlds were together during the Last Battle ?
The old woman with gray hear that talked to Rand after the fight, who was her ?
Thanks for your answers !

Dan Farstrider
02-16-2013, 12:46 PM
I'm sure this was posted elsewhere so I apologize but:

Did we ever find out who the old lady as who spoke to Aviendha on her way to Rhuidean?

Marie Curie 7
02-16-2013, 12:51 PM
I'm sure this was posted elsewhere so I apologize but:

Did we ever find out who the old lady as who spoke to Aviendha on her way to Rhuidean?

It was Nakomi (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=892#13). ;)

Dan Farstrider
02-16-2013, 01:02 PM
It was Nakomi (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=892#13). ;)

Haha..thanks:D

So who she was is still just a theory...?

Dom
02-16-2013, 01:04 PM
Haha..thanks:D

So who she was is still just a theory...?

Yes. Brandon refuses to explain who/what she was.

He said there might or not be something more in the Encyclopedia, but the way he speaks makes it seem more likely there won't be.

Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon
02-19-2013, 07:19 PM
It was Nakomi (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=892#13). ;)

His answer was "an official RAFO." Official!!

I read and did not find out. Anyone have a different experience?

If it's not in the Encyclopedia, then this is my last ever question about WoT: Hey, Brandon, what do I need to read to find out who Nakomi is?

GonzoTheGreat
02-20-2013, 03:25 AM
If it's not in the Encyclopedia, then this is my last ever question about WoT: Hey, Brandon, what do I need to read to find out who Nakomi is?
I just used Google. That gave as (part of) the first hit: "Nakomi is a mysterious woman ..."
Which, admittedly, isn't much of an improvement over RAFO.

SauceyBlueConfetti
02-20-2013, 10:14 AM
One of the interview quote questions had someone asking if Nakomi was representative of the idea of the "wandering Jew" and Brandon seemed to give a "hey, gooood question, atta-boy" response.

It fits, the Wandering Jew in Christian beliefs is believed to live on until the 2nd coming (Lews Therin ---> Rand) and only able to find sustenance and rest with help from others. It makes sense with the Avi scene as Nakomi has to ask if she can share here meal, then leaves without resting.

Pinpointing the "who" part of it is trickier though as it could be someone who loved Lews Therin and betrayed him, or someone who made his life hell and was cursed. The fact it is female is interesting, and the image of it as an Aiel makes it trickier. :) I have been picking at that one in the books since reading that interview question and I still don't know what to think. Yet. :D

The Unreasoner
02-20-2013, 02:13 PM
She could be some sort of Dragon counterpart. The Dragon is one with the Land (Father Earth), Nakomi is one with Time (Mother Time).

Maybe such a thing gives a sort of immortality and prescience.

Rand al'Fain
02-21-2013, 02:23 AM
She could be some sort of Dragon counterpart. The Dragon is one with the Land (Father Earth), Nakomi is one with Time (Mother Time).

Maybe such a thing gives a sort of immortality and prescience.

I know Robert Jordan liked to switch things around a bit, but it's the other way around usaually.

Cronus (father of Zeus, and where chronology comes from)

Gaia (Mother of Zeus, Goddess of the Earth)

Though, in a sense, I guess it works.

Darkdwarf
02-25-2013, 05:17 PM
Is this quote an indication of the merging of Rand and Moridin happening even throughout the battle against the DO?

The force in his hand, which was at once vast and yet tiny, trembled. Its screams were the sounds of planets grinding together.
A pitiful object. Suddenly, Rand felt as if he were holding not one of the primal forces of existence, but a squirming thing from the mud of the sheep pens.
YOU REALLY ARE NOTHING, Rand said, knowing the Dark One's secrets completely. YOU WOULD NEVER HAVE GIVEN ME REST AS YOU PROMISED, FATHER OF LIES. YOU WOULD HAVE ENSLAVED ME AS YOU WOULD HAVE ENSLAVED THE OTHERS. YOU CANNOT GIVE OBLIVION. REST IS NOT YOURS. ONLY TORMENT.
The Dark One trembled in his grip.
YOU HORRIBLE, PITIFUL MITE, Rand said.
Rand was dying.

(emphasis mine)

Demon
02-25-2013, 06:41 PM
I dont see why it would be. Rand wanted oblivion a few chapters before that.

Terez
02-25-2013, 06:47 PM
Is this quote an indication of the merging of Rand and Moridin happening even throughout the battle against the DO?
If that wasn't, then Moridin's stabby-stab was. No reason to assume that they were all of a sudden not-merged because Rand had something important to do.

maacaroni
02-26-2013, 09:36 AM
Shai'tan knew Taim had the Seals, he gained favor from that.

Rand figured out the only way Shai'tan could win was if the Dragon soul made the choice for humanity to give up, broken, or to willlingly embrace the Shadow.

Either way, the right time for the Dark One to order Taim to break the seals never came. He had not broken Rand nor convinced him to let him win. Breaking the seals would have put an end to their philosophical debate as Rand seing that stepped back to return in the Pattern and put in motion an ending. It wasn't Shai'tan's best play.

By the time Shai'tan should have broken the seals and struck at Rand with all he had because breaking him was his only choice left, Taim was dead, Alanna had released the bond and Moridin had screwed everything up by taking the bait of Callandor. And the Light had the seals.

With the Horn of Valere there and ready to bring Rand back from the dead for a final round with this time his memories from the Ages, I'm not sure Lanfear's "last chance" plan would have worked either.

But surely if the seals were broken, or at least more of them were broken, then his touch on the land would be more and the chances of victory in the other theatres would be higher? More people 'popping their clogs' would have increased Rand's despair, thus increasing the chances of victory.

GonzoTheGreat
02-26-2013, 09:56 AM
Obviously, it's not as simple as that. Which is of course why Taim gave a Seal to Rand when they first met; breaking it was no use (for whatever reason) to the Shadow at the time, so they might as well use it to buy some trust.

padfoot89
03-03-2013, 09:33 AM
Was Baalzamon originally intended to be the DO when RJ first wrote the books ? It was supposed to be a trilogy...

GonzoTheGreat
03-03-2013, 09:49 AM
No, he wasn't, as the first book was supposed to end with Rand getting the Sword from the Stone. By which time he would've killed Ishamael like three times already.

Tollingtoy
04-24-2013, 08:19 PM
Was there ever a clear explanation of Alanna's bonding of Rand? In TGH, in one of the first instances she is mentioned, it states that she had an unhealthy interest in Rand, Mat and Perrin. Why would this be?

Terez
04-25-2013, 12:52 AM
I think she was looking for the Überwarder, and justified it to herself by convincing herself that someone needed to tie a leash to all three of them so it might as well be her. It's possible Verin Compelled her after Owein died (vulnerability helps) but I think her original motive at least was along those lines.

Tollingtoy
04-26-2013, 03:43 PM
Interesting points, thanks Terez! Also, do we know for sure that Demandred planned and executed the invasion of Camelyn? I assumed this was true in the beginning of the book, but this is before I was aware of his other "ventures" that seemed to be taking up a great deal of his time

Ishara
04-26-2013, 05:20 PM
Re: Alanna, I think Terez has a good point. As for Verin's role, I'm quite sure that Compulsion wasn't necessary, given Alanna's volatile nature and fragile state of being at the moment. Just a verbal nudge would have been enought to tip Alanna in that direction, especially if she had been considering it before.

Re: Caemlyn, I don't think Demandred had the time to orchestrate the attack. We haven't seen it yet, but we've been promised entire sections of aMoL featuring Demandred that outlined his role in Shara. He was busy planning an uprising/ civil war - I'm not sure there was enough time in the day. Even the Forsaken need to sleep.

Terez
04-26-2013, 06:42 PM
Interesting points, thanks Terez! Also, do we know for sure that Demandred planned and executed the invasion of Camelyn?
If he had, I'm sure it would have been much more awesome than it was.

GonzoTheGreat
04-27-2013, 03:42 AM
Re: Alanna, I think Terez has a good point. As for Verin's role, I'm quite sure that Compulsion wasn't necessary, given Alanna's volatile nature and fragile state of being at the moment. Just a verbal nudge would have been enought to tip Alanna in that direction, especially if she had been considering it before.
With Alanna, there was also her frustration over not having been able to bond Perrin because of Faile's threat. Then she came face to face with another ta'veren, one that didn't have a crazy girlfriend around ...

Terez
04-27-2013, 09:25 AM
She met all three in Fal Dara, and showed an interest in them even then.

GonzoTheGreat
04-27-2013, 10:33 AM
She met all three in Fal Dara, and showed an interest in them even then.
Could've been just because they were male, though. :p

Hashibon
05-03-2013, 03:15 AM
It is mentioned that Demandred was in a full circle of 72 channelers. So where were all these channelers during the battle? Wouldn't they be unable to channel on their own?

GonzoTheGreat
05-03-2013, 04:37 AM
It is mentioned that Demandred was in a full circle of 72 channelers. So where were all these channelers during the battle? Wouldn't they be unable to channel on their own?
They were standing around, applauding the nifty moves made in the duels with random passer bys (passers by?).

Weird Harold
05-03-2013, 07:10 AM
It is mentioned that Demandred was in a full circle of 72 channelers. So where were all these channelers during the battle? Wouldn't they be unable to channel on their own?
I'm not sure that there ever was a full circle supporting Demandred. He was using the scepter sa'angreal and that would distort the assessment of his strength the same way that a full circle would.

Even if he was supported by full-circle when he (and the gateways from Shara) first appeared it seems he released the circle and relied on just his own power and the sa'angreal shortly after arriving; perhaps the majority of the circle powering his first appearance remained in Shara?

suttree
05-03-2013, 10:34 AM
They were standing around, applauding the nifty moves made in the duels with random passer bys (passers by?).

Funny quote on that over at DM the other day:

Mr Ares
DEMANDRED: "FACE ME LEWS THERIN!"
SHARAN: "Sir, there's a Valan Luca here to see you? He says he's here to challenge you to fisticuffs?"
DEMANDRED: "... Send him in."

SauceyBlueConfetti
05-03-2013, 11:12 AM
Sorry, but Unreasoner's signature line (which he has hidden in spoiler tags) regarding Demandredred RULES THEM ALL. I laugh every single time I read it. I actually had it in my phone to show Brandon at JordanCon, but lost my nerve:



"Why Demandred decided to drop acid before donning that ridiculous armor and taking the field was beyond M'Hael, but his position was not yet secure enough to question the actions of the other Chosen."

Necromancy
05-21-2013, 08:27 PM
I don't believe RJ would have tossed in some brand new, unexplained set of powers just to tie off the ending.

He imagined his pipe was lit... and then it was

Just like if he were in T.A.R....

Zombie Sammael
05-21-2013, 08:42 PM
Sorry, but Unreasoner's signature line (which he has hidden in spoiler tags) regarding Demandredred RULES THEM ALL. I laugh every single time I read it. I actually had it in my phone to show Brandon at JordanCon, but lost my nerve:



"Why Demandred decided to drop acid before donning that ridiculous armor and taking the field was beyond M'Hael, but his position was not yet secure enough to question the actions of the other Chosen."

You haven't read any of my Isam-style AMOL summaries yet.

I don't believe RJ would have tossed in some brand new, unexplained set of powers just to tie off the ending.

He imagined his pipe was lit... and then it was

Just like if he were in T.A.R....

Well, he didn't. Rand had exactly those sorts of powers during his battle with the DO. He simply retained them after the fight, simple as.

Terez
05-21-2013, 11:26 PM
Still pretty deus ex machina, don't you think? Unless you relate it to Tel'aran'rhiod, that is. Which is why I prefer to think of it in those terms. I like to pretend the whole episode at Shayol Ghul didn't actually happen.

Zombie Sammael
05-22-2013, 02:39 AM
Still pretty deus ex machina, don't you think? Unless you relate it to Tel'aran'rhiod, that is. Which is why I prefer to think of it in those terms. I like to pretend the whole episode at Shayol Ghul didn't actually happen.

I'm not entirely sure what you're referring to as a deus ex machina. The way I saw it - and I do feel everything is best left to reader interpretation at this point - is that during the battle with the DO, Rand had ceased to channel the Power and was actually channelling the threads of the pattern. As an aside, it's possible that if, say, Logain had gone in and confronted the Dark One he also would have begun doing so, and it was Rand's experience and sufferings that led him to victory rather than special powers. But anyway, once he'd started channelling the pattern itself rather than saidin - it's implied they're made up of roughly the same sort of thing anyway - he couldn't stop. He could still manage to channel the One Power and True Power, but I expect it's the case that his final act using them both through Callandor to seal the prison burned him out. In any case, even if he was burned out, even after the battle he retained the ability to manipulate pattern threads. I don't really think there's anything too inconsistent in that; it makes sense that OP, the pattern, and Tel'aran'rhiod ultimately work in roughly comparable ways.

GonzoTheGreat
05-22-2013, 03:27 AM
Still pretty deus ex machina, don't you think?
What Zombie should have said: "It is just a weave."

eht slat meit
05-22-2013, 10:50 PM
Taking the series as a whole, I'm not inclined to believe that we were ever shown any truly "new" sets of powers, just fed the whole puzzle a piece at a time in a way as to suggest they were.

Two halves of the True Power, Shadow and Light
Two halves of Shadow, shaidar and shaisam.
Darkness from corruption and destruction from chaos.
Two halves of Light, saidin and saidar.
Illumination of flame and growth of flower.
Yin and yang, white on black, black on white.

Black against white, Shadow against Light.
A circle of white within black.
Light within Shadow.
A circle of black within white.
Shadow within Light.

Lord of Morning and Lord of Evening.
Balanced.
All that Rand is, Light.
All that Shai'tan is, Shadow.
With all of Light, and thru Callandor, all Shadow.
All that is the Power.

Not a new power, simply all that is.

That came out looking more like a poem, dammit. But the point was to illustrate the balances that seem to exist within the books, and the pieces of the whole.

Shai'tan does not seem to possess any powers that anyone else cannot possess, only a willingness to use them and risk whatever dangers such an action possesses. Powers from global weather change to transmigrating souls, and so on.

Nothing truly new, only unrealized.

fionwe1987
05-25-2013, 07:39 AM
I look at it simply as the Five Powers being the only way humans can generally comprehend the OP. Rand saw that it has way more components. And manipulating those is exactly what you do in TAR. And it's what Rand learned to do in the real world, which I still think is only a subdomain of TAR.

Rand al'Fain
05-25-2013, 07:46 PM
Taking the series as a whole, I'm not inclined to believe that we were ever shown any truly "new" sets of powers, just fed the whole puzzle a piece at a time in a way as to suggest they were.

Two halves of the True Power, Shadow and Light
Two halves of Shadow, shaidar and shaisam.
Darkness from corruption and destruction from chaos.
Two halves of Light, saidin and saidar.
Illumination of flame and growth of flower.
Yin and yang, white on black, black on white.

Black against white, Shadow against Light.
A circle of white within black.
Light within Shadow.
A circle of black within white.
Shadow within Light.

Lord of Morning and Lord of Evening.
Balanced.
All that Rand is, Light.
All that Shai'tan is, Shadow.
With all of Light, and thru Callandor, all Shadow.
All that is the Power.

Not a new power, simply all that is.

That came out looking more like a poem, dammit. But the point was to illustrate the balances that seem to exist within the books, and the pieces of the whole.

Shai'tan does not seem to possess any powers that anyone else cannot possess, only a willingness to use them and risk whatever dangers such an action possesses. Powers from global weather change to transmigrating souls, and so on.

Nothing truly new, only unrealized.

Except, he's like a Greek God, in that he embodies all the evil things in the Pattern (like Athena embodied wisdom, Ares was war, and Appollo the sun). Immortal (short of balefire via Rand), but also has human traits, like cowardice when Rand gains the upperhand.

And let's not forget he basically is the source for the "True Power", which is seperate from Saiden and Saidar.

Figbiscuit
05-30-2013, 08:18 AM
You haven't read any of my Isam-style AMOL summaries yet.


Are these available on the interwebz?

GonzoTheGreat
05-30-2013, 08:43 AM
Are these available on the interwebz?
Of course not. But if you go to a good bookstore, then I am sure they can help you.

eht slat meit
05-30-2013, 05:57 PM
Except, he's like a Greek God, in that he embodies all the evil things in the Pattern

And let's not forget he basically is the source for the "True Power", which is separate from Saiden and Saidar.

I have to question whether either of those are actually true. I know it's a natural conclusion, as Shai'tan has been presented as the Big Bad throughout the entire series, with people afraid to speak his name, but Rand's final epiphany is that Shai'tan was not the enemy, nor was he ever, and ends with the final condemnation of foolish men...

... which intriguingly enough appears to refer to those that made the Bore and not the various Shadowsworn.

If everything is about free will, and noting that the Dark One has done very little directly in the series short of the taint (again, corruption, not direct) and messing with the weather, then ultimately the people are their own worst enemy, are they not?

I'd hesitate even to call the Dark One even the embodiment of *all* evil simply because of his own counterpoint - Shaisam.

Zombie Sammael
05-30-2013, 07:37 PM
Are these available on the interwebz?

I failed to write them up at the time as I was being distracted by someone. However they included such gems as:

TUON: I wuv oo! I give oo special name!!!

They'll probably have to wait until I get off my ass and finish my reread now.

Rand al'Fain
05-31-2013, 09:51 PM
I have to question whether either of those are actually true. I know it's a natural conclusion, as Shai'tan has been presented as the Big Bad throughout the entire series, with people afraid to speak his name, but Rand's final epiphany is that Shai'tan was not the enemy, nor was he ever, and ends with the final condemnation of foolish men...

... which intriguingly enough appears to refer to those that made the Bore and not the various Shadowsworn.

If everything is about free will, and noting that the Dark One has done very little directly in the series short of the taint (again, corruption, not direct) and messing with the weather, then ultimately the people are their own worst enemy, are they not?

I'd hesitate even to call the Dark One even the embodiment of *all* evil simply because of his own counterpoint - Shaisam.

I really need to stop posting things half awake.

Anyways, what I meant was, that like the Greek Mythological world, people in Randland do have free will and can do what they want. Only differences being, instead of multiple Gods/Deities, there are only 2, and their roles are smaller. But still, like how Hephestaues (yeah, I butchered that name) embodies Smithing, Poseidon the sea, Hades the underworld, and Athena in wisdom and strategy.

In Randland, we have Shaitan being the embodiement of evil; cowardice (when confronted by someone who can challenge him), sociopathism (enjoying the pain of others), greed, exploitation, etc.

On the other hand, we have the Creator, who is the embodiement of good.

This also ties into the whole yin-yang thing, where there is balance of both good and bad. Not only in the world with someone having a horrible death being balanced by a miracle, but also in people, as shown when Rand the Shaitan were having their "debate".

Rand al'Fain
06-05-2013, 02:51 AM
Okay, a question:

If someone is a Hero of the Horn, does that mean they were Taveren at one point too? We know Rand was as both Rand and LTT (and quite poossibly past incarnations that have fought Shaitan), and we have numerous quotes throughout the series stating Hawking was a taveren too. The Heroes seem to be spun out in order to positively affect the world in some way (the Wheel's counter to a stagnant world/sheer chaos, depending on what the flux of the world is like), while taveren have a major affect on the world during times when something needs to happen (LTT for winning the War of Power, Hawking for shaking up a stagnant world, and Rand for fighting Tarmon Gaidon with Mat and Perrin).

So, could other Heroes have been taveren at one point?

Would that make Brigitte a former taveren at one point as well?

GonzoTheGreat
06-05-2013, 03:56 AM
Maybe, but the fact that Mat is not a HotH shows conclusively that there is not necessarily a link between being ta'veren and being a HotH.
So it seems more likely that the two concepts are basically independent, though the Pattern may often need to bestow ta'verenness on a Hero to enable that Hero to do his or her job.

It probably depends on the Hero. I suspect that ruler/conqueror types such as Rand and Hawkwing would far more often be ta'veren than an individual warrior like Birgitte.

Weird Harold
06-05-2013, 05:17 AM
Okay, a question:

If someone is a Hero of the Horn, does that mean they were Taveren at one point too?

As Gonzo says, "Maybe."

Ta'veren is a temporary condition. The wheel makes someone ta'veren for as long as a ta'veren is needed and then turns ta'veren-ness off. Ta'veren can last anything from a few seconds to several years, but never for a full life-time. (The Three Amigos didn't become ta'veren until the first few pages of tEotW -- according to RJ.)

HotH, on the other hand, have to have 18 years or more lead time and a HotH is always a HotH -- not very effective as a hero the first 15-20 years or so, but a HotH, nevertheless.

Many HotH may be ta'veren for some portion of an incarnation, but ta'veren is an "immediate-action" mechanism for maintaining the Wheel's balance, while a HotH is a "delayed-action" mechanism.

GonzoTheGreat
06-05-2013, 07:15 AM
The Three Amigos didn't become ta'veren until the first few pages of tEotW -- according to RJ.
Which, I have to point out, puts the start of their ta'verenness more than three thousand years before their birth.

The Unreasoner
06-06-2013, 12:51 PM
the fact that Mat is not a HotH shows conclusively that there is not necessarily a link between being ta'veren and being a HotH
While I agree that there is no sense of 'if and only if' relationship, I sincerely doubt that Mat is not a HotH *now*.

Birgitte has a handful of Hobbit-caliber adventures (no real Larger Purpose, except incidentally) and is one. Not a world-shaker by any means. Mat was the general of TG (not to mention everything done before: storming the Stone, killing Couladin, defeating the gholam...), I have to think that earned something.

I'm toying with a theory now that posits stories and legends as the sort of primordial essence of the WoT universe (iow, if people talk about you enough, you are/become a HotH). T'A'R factors in it hugely. People talk about Birgitte all of the time. Now they are talking about Mat too (to an astonishing degree).

padfoot89
07-30-2013, 05:26 PM
Quick question, I guess I missed it when I read AMOL; what happened to Rand's old horse (Tadaishar I think) ?

GonzoTheGreat
07-31-2013, 03:36 AM
Quick question, I guess I missed it when I read AMOL; what happened to Rand's old horse (Tadaishar I think) ?
He was last seen when Rand dismounted him at the start of the meeting with the Borderlanders ToM. Maybe the Borderland monarchs and Cadsuane ate the horse while Rand was apologizing to Hurin.

I did notice that in the same book (aCoS) where Rand got Tai'daishar, Egwene got a horse called Daishar. Egwene's horse made it into aMoL, though.

Rand al'Fain
08-03-2013, 03:00 AM
:(He was last seen when Rand dismounted him at the start of the meeting with the Borderlanders ToM. Maybe the Borderland monarchs and Cadsuane ate the horse while Rand was apologizing to Hurin.

I did notice that in the same book (aCoS) where Rand got Tai'daishar, Egwene got a horse called Daishar. Egwene's horse made it into aMoL, though.

Horse?

Bela, no!:(

padfoot89
08-03-2013, 04:54 AM
Would've been a nice way to round things off if Rand could go back home on his old horse given the reason he gave him that name. Of course, the horse may not have believed him when Rand claimed that he really was Rand.

GonzoTheGreat
08-03-2013, 05:37 AM
Wouldn't a Warder bond (well, maybe a Rider bond, here) have solved that?

Terez
08-03-2013, 08:24 AM
Would've been a nice way to round things off if Rand could go back home on his old horse given the reason he gave him that name. Of course, the horse may not have believed him when Rand claimed that he really was Rand.That would be Jeade'en, True Finder, who always finds the way home. Rand appears to have lost him. (Perhaps he found his way home.) Tai'daishar is Lord of Glory, who was a gelding when Rand stole it from Kiruna. After Rand rode it for a while it became a stallion again.

GonzoTheGreat
08-03-2013, 09:33 AM
That would be Jeade'en, True Finder, who always finds the way home. Rand appears to have lost him. (Perhaps he found his way home.) Tai'daishar is Lord of Glory, who was a gelding when Rand stole it from Kiruna. After Rand rode it for a while it became a stallion again.
That's one. What are the other eight?
Tiana stiffened and opened her mouth angrily, but once Janya had the bit between her teeth, getting a word in edgewise was no easy matter. “Nicola, on the other hand, causes all sorts of problems, Mother,” the Brown rushed on. “Ever since we found out she has the Foretelling, she’s been Foretelling two or three times a day, to hear her tell it. Or rather, to hear Areina tell it. Nicola is smart enough to know everyone is aware she can’t remember what she says when she Foretells, but Areina always seems to be there to hear and remember, and help her interpret. Some are the sort of thing anyone in the camp with half a brain and a credulous nature might think of – battles with the Seanchan or the Asha’man, an Amyrlin imprisoned, the Dragon Reborn doing nine impossible things, visions that might be Tarmon Gai’don or a bilious stomach – and the rest all just happen to indicate that Nicola ought to be allowed to go faster with her lessons. She’s always too greedy for that. I think even most of the other novices have stopped believing her.”
Bonus question: if Nicola had been allowed to go faster with her lessons, would she then have survived the encounter that now saw her dead?

Zombie Sammael
08-03-2013, 07:15 PM
That would be Jeade'en, True Finder, who always finds the way home. Rand appears to have lost him. (Perhaps he found his way home.) Tai'daishar is Lord of Glory, who was a gelding when Rand stole it from Kiruna. After Rand rode it for a while it became a stallion again.

Rand's first horse was Cloud, back in TEOTW.

Terez
08-03-2013, 08:52 PM
Rand's first horse was Cloud, back in TEOTW.Yes, but that's a bit of a non sequitur, isn't it? Poor Cloud got left on the banks of the Arinelle.

padfoot89
08-09-2013, 08:02 AM
TED HERMAN
What makes a body suitable for a transmigrated Forsaken besides channeling ability?
BRANDON SANDERSON
The Dark One looks for certain things that are not available in just any body, and we will see an illustrated example of this in A Memory of Light.
Source: http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=627


Is Brandon talking about Hessalam here? The DO looked for a super ugly female body as a punishment for Graendal?

Davian93
08-09-2013, 09:39 AM
Yes, but that's a bit of a non sequitur, isn't it? Poor Cloud got left on the banks of the Arinelle.

I'm sure the Trollocs didn't eat Cloud...totally sure.

Rand al'Fain
08-11-2013, 11:27 AM
I'm sure the Trollocs didn't eat Cloud...totally sure.

Of course. Cloud ate the Trollocs instead!

GonzoTheGreat
08-11-2013, 12:11 PM
Of course. Cloud ate the Trollocs instead!
Sexism!

We know that Bela didn't manage such a feat. Was that only because she was a mare? :eek:

Rand al'Fain
08-12-2013, 09:58 AM
Sexism!

We know that Bela didn't manage such a feat. Was that only because she was a mare? :eek:

No, Cloud just always had a thing for Trolloc flesh, whereas Bella was really the Creator keeping an eye on things, but never directly interefering.

Cor Shan
09-13-2013, 02:08 AM
So: The Dragon as presented in the WOT is the Great Serpent/Uroborus with claws/a means to defend itself.

This is obvious and I should have picked up on it during TEOTW 10 years ago right?

Lupusdeusest
10-24-2013, 07:58 AM
Yes, but that's a bit of a non sequitur, isn't it? Poor Cloud got left on the banks of the Arinelle.

Er. Cloud is currently tied under our house.

Zombie Sammael
10-24-2013, 09:05 PM
Er. Cloud is currently tied under our house.

Well, not tied so much as padlocked.

Rand al'Fain
03-04-2014, 01:46 AM
Didn't really feel liked this needed it's own thread, so here we go;
Did we ever find out how many (like at least rough estimate) people fought in the Last Battle overall? I don't just mean the battle of Merrilor Fields, but all fronts of it. Has anything been released or what? I know it's safe to say it was in the hundreds of thousands on both sides, but that's very general and not specific.

GonzoTheGreat
03-04-2014, 03:32 AM
For starters, it may not be a trivial exercise to decide what does and doesn't fall under the "all fronts" heading.

We know that Demandred did not conquer all of Shara. So it stands to reason that there were parts of that which resisted him. Do the borders of that fall under "all fronts" heading you mentioned?
We know that there were Darkfriends in Seanchan too. Do the civil wars over there also count as part of the front in the LB?
We know that there's a Land Of The Madmen, but we do not really know anything more than that about it. Were there fronts of the LB there too, or not?
We know that *finn also fought in the LB (Perrin saw one while he was flipping out and into existence hunting Slayer). Do the *finn count as "people"?

Rand al'Fain
03-06-2014, 02:27 AM
For starters, it may not be a trivial exercise to decide what does and doesn't fall under the "all fronts" heading.

We know that Demandred did not conquer all of Shara. So it stands to reason that there were parts of that which resisted him. Do the borders of that fall under "all fronts" heading you mentioned?
We know that there were Darkfriends in Seanchan too. Do the civil wars over there also count as part of the front in the LB?
We know that there's a Land Of The Madmen, but we do not really know anything more than that about it. Were there fronts of the LB there too, or not?
We know that *finn also fought in the LB (Perrin saw one while he was flipping out and into existence hunting Slayer). Do the *finn count as "people"?
*sigh* You're really going to do this?:rolleyes:

GonzoTheGreat
03-06-2014, 04:30 AM
Hey, I haven't even asked the hard questions, yet:
Do Trollocs count as "people"?
Do the people from Hinderstap, who fought and died and fought (and often died) again count once, twice, or more often?

Southpaw2012
03-09-2014, 08:38 PM
Was Baalzamon originally intended to be the DO when RJ first wrote the books ? It was supposed to be a trilogy...

Nope. When Rand and Ba'alzamon meet up early in tEotW, Ba'alzamon makes some comments that indicate he's not the DO.

GonzoTheGreat
05-12-2014, 09:51 AM
Does Rand still slow, or will he now grow older at the normal rate?

I'll admit that the available data seems a bit spotty, perhaps some observations over a longer timeframe are called for.

Terez
05-12-2014, 09:53 AM
Conditions would seem to suggest that he will not slow, but that he has the ability to appear however he likes, and will probably only die when he's bored of living.

GonzoTheGreat
05-18-2014, 12:00 PM
When Perrin was hunting after the Shaido who had kidnapped his wife, he encountered the tracks of a bunch of Darkhounds. As far as I can remember, we never get any confirmation of what they were after. Am I right about that, or have I forgotten something?

Terez
05-18-2014, 05:53 PM
Brandon told (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=554#9) bossman that he believed the answer was in the books, i.e. that Slayer was hunting Fain. The arguments against this have always been along the lines of, we don't know for sure that Slayer was commanding the Darkhounds, etc. but no one has ever provided a similarly straightforward explanation, and Slayer is clearly tied to the Darkhounds in the TGH dark prophecy. (That's aside from his known proclivity for killing wolves in Tel'aran'rhiod.)

fionwe1987
05-19-2014, 06:49 PM
The person appearing in Masema's visions was Lanfear, correct?

Davian93
05-19-2014, 06:53 PM
The person appearing in Masema's visions was Lanfear, correct?

I thought it was Graendal...

GonzoTheGreat
05-22-2014, 09:30 AM
Two more questions that occurred to me:

1. Who, if anyone, represented Far Madding at the Merrilor Conference?

2. When Rand had stuck Callandor into the Stone and put a trap around it, could Mat have pulled the thing out again?
He wouldn't have tried, to avoid finding out that he could channel, of course, but it does seem likely that his medaillon would have protected him from whatever Rand had done to keep the thing safe.

Davian93
05-22-2014, 11:28 AM
I doubt anyone represented Far Madding as they're an inconsequential minor city-state.

I'd imagine Rand also manipulated the actual rock around Callandor to ensure that you simply couldn't pull it out like that.