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Lost One
01-14-2013, 08:28 PM
While this isn't too important, I am glad that we finally see that women are not the only ones to have same gender relationship and that two men were pointed out as prefering men. The whole female/pillow friend thing had been beaten to death with out one reference to men.

Any comments, or is this too mundane?

professorskar
01-14-2013, 09:40 PM
Honestly, I found it a bit distracting. I wouldn't exactly call it fanservice, but it did seem to be mentioned just as a response to people who have complained about the lack of positive male gay characters in Wheel of Time. It didn't bother me that they chose to portray some, it just took me out of the story because it seemed to only be mentioned to address that fact. It would be like if there was a scene of five guys in a communal bath all washing their junk as a way to make up for the unbalanced female to male nudity ratio. But then, it probably wouldn't have bothered me at all except that I was disappointed in the last book, so little things that otherwise wouldn't annoy me have been.

kamarile
01-14-2013, 10:53 PM
lack of positive male gay characters

It wasn't just a lack of positive male gay characters, it was a lack of a) positive gay characters and b) any gay male characters at all. I'm hard pressed to think of a lesbian character that isn't either waiting for the right man to come along, or else a harridan who is with women because she hates men so much. If mentioning a minor character or two as being gay is fanservice, then consider me a serviced fan.

Morsker
01-14-2013, 11:20 PM
One of the two token gay men had the title Swordbearer. How can that be anything but hilarious?

Pevara blew the opportunity for a dumb fan joke too. I was expecting her to follow "lols men are so bad at detecting gay" with a comparison to detecting opposite-sex One Power, but she didn't. I'm not sure if that's for the better, or the worse.

Nei
01-15-2013, 01:50 AM
It all felt a little 'Dumbledore' if you know what I mean. All the 'by the way so-and-so is gay' made for some slightly 'what' moments.

Terez
01-15-2013, 06:35 AM
It was basically exactly the same as some previous mentions (Seonid for example) of women who are not interested in men 'that way'. Male homosexuality was mentioned twice by RJ: when Faile wondered why Rolan seemed to show no interest in her naked body when she was captured, and when Sierin Vayu fired all the men in the Tower to keep them from flirting with novices and Accepted, even those who didn't like women that way. But there was never a male character with a name who was gay or bi, despite a dozen or so lesbians/bi women. Moiraine, Siuan, Shalon, Ailil, Galina, Elaida, Seonid, Meidani, etc.

RJ put Seonid in there in response to fans who complained about the fact that all the lesbians were, as kamarile said, either bitches or simply waiting for the right man. He also put in 'the necessary' and Melfane's urine-tasting to appease the fans who complained that characters never have to use the chamber pots or the privies. Brandon put in a couple of unobtrusive man-preferring men to respond to fan criticism about the lack of gay males, and it's totally in keeping with how RJ addressed these issues. RJ always said you saw more lesbians than gay men because most of them are in the White Tower where you have a bunch of adolescent women locked away from men. But he kind of killed his argument with Ailil and Shalon.

Davian93
01-15-2013, 07:15 AM
I'm just so glad that BS was able to satisfy the whiny complaints of some fans...so glad. There wasnt enough "fanservice" in the final book.

Terez
01-15-2013, 07:25 AM
I'm just so glad that BS was able to satisfy the whiny complaints of some fans...so glad. There wasnt enough "fanservice" in the final book.
You seem unable to distinguish between the type of 'fanservice' that RJ used and the type that Brandon is known for.

Davian93
01-15-2013, 07:28 AM
You seem unable to distinguish between the type of 'fanservice' that RJ used and the type that Brandon is known for.

I can distinguish it just fine, I just found it all annoying after a certain point. Had this been pretty much the extent of it, totally cool. Add in all the rest and it just became annoying. This comes to mind:

http://static.someecards.com/someecards/usercards/1324596542030_7713053.png

AbbeyRoad
01-15-2013, 07:42 AM
Did anyone else pick up any homoerotic undertones regarding Demandred's obsession with LTT. I'm not saying he was gay, but his fixation was certainly more intense than your run-of-the-mill jealous hatred.

Terez
01-15-2013, 07:47 AM
I don't think it was intentional. I think there were more homoerotic undertones with Rand and Moridin.

AbbeyRoad
01-15-2013, 07:51 AM
I don't think it was intentional. I think there were more homoerotic undertones with Rand and Moridin.
You're right. I forgot they'd 'crossed streams.'

Edited to add:

The only reason I mentioned Demandred was because of the line where is contemplating the Sharan woman, and he thinks to himself something along the lines of: "he wasn't sure he had room for love next to his burning hatred for LTT," or something to that effect. Coupled with his jealousy of the Dragon, and LTT's thoughts that if he hadn't spurned Demandred and instead encouraged him he might have been a hero, he seemed to have a hint of the 'jilted lover' stereotype.

Terez
01-15-2013, 07:54 AM
Brandon said their souls are tied together like Birgitte and Gaidal.

Lost One
01-15-2013, 10:05 AM
Honestly, I found it a bit distracting. I wouldn't exactly call it fanservice, but it did seem to be mentioned just as a response to people who have complained about the lack of positive male gay characters in Wheel of Time. It didn't bother me that they chose to portray some, it just took me out of the story because it seemed to only be mentioned to address that fact. It would be like if there was a scene of five guys in a communal bath all washing their junk as a way to make up for the unbalanced female to male nudity ratio. But then, it probably wouldn't have bothered me at all except that I was disappointed in the last book, so little things that otherwise wouldn't annoy me have been.

I have never herd the term fan service before, though I think I know what you mean. My observation was that in the previous books, whether they were men haters, were just young girls looking for comfort and companionship in a closed society such as the tower, or seperated and lonely such as Alil and Shalon; it seemed there for a while you could not read a chapter with reading that "so and so are/must be/were pillow friends". I kept wondering WTF. I mean it got to the point for me where it felt gratuitus. It did not really subtract from the story, but did not add that much either. But I also felt that if pains were taken to talk about so and so being pillow friends, why was there not a mention of male to male bonding. Until these honorable mentions in AMoL, you have the sense that women get together all the time, but men only have a male to female perspective. It just seemed off.. especially in a story where balance is a key theme.

Also, to whoever mentioned it, thanks for the laugh. I have not done a second read yet and it had not sank in that one of the guys was known a swordbearer.. too funny

DahLliA
01-15-2013, 02:44 PM
Honestly, I found it a bit distracting. I wouldn't exactly call it fanservice, but it did seem to be mentioned just as a response to people who have complained about the lack of positive male gay characters in Wheel of Time. It didn't bother me that they chose to portray some, it just took me out of the story because it seemed to only be mentioned to address that fact. It would be like if there was a scene of five guys in a communal bath all washing their junk as a way to make up for the unbalanced female to male nudity ratio.

This, pretty much.

Terez
01-15-2013, 02:57 PM
Did it bother you all the other times it was mentioned previously?

LeeringCorpse
01-15-2013, 03:43 PM
Hmmm, perhaps I’m a prude. I didn’t take the phrase “Pillow Friends” to mean that they were sexually active with each other, it didn’t rule it out and I figured some were, but I mainly took it to mean that they were extremely close, like siblings, and like siblings would sometime crawl into each other’s bed after a hard day for a bit of comforting… and I don’t mean the type of comforting Min does with Rand ;), or if they were frightened or wanted to chat.

I found it distracting as well, at least when it was first mentioned, but that was probably because I didn’t think all “Pillow Friends” were necessarily sexually active.

Davian93
01-15-2013, 04:18 PM
Hmmm, perhaps I’m a prude. I didn’t take the phrase “Pillow Friends” to mean that they were sexually active with each other, it didn’t rule it out and I figured some were, but I mainly took it to mean that they were extremely close, like siblings, and like siblings would sometime crawl into each other’s bed after a hard day for a bit of comforting… and I don’t mean the type of comforting Min does with Rand ;), or if they were frightened or wanted to chat.

I found it distracting as well, at least when it was first mentioned, but that was probably because I didn’t think all “Pillow Friends” were necessarily sexually active.

That's awesome.

Minor aSoIaF Spoiler
FWIW, I didnt realize that Renly and Ser Loras were gay lovers for the longest time either...

Crispin's Crispian
01-15-2013, 06:14 PM
I also thought "pillow friends" was ambiguous--not in a sly way. I thought it implied the kind of relationship Egwene and Elayne had in the Tower, and in some cases might have implied more.

But people love the black and white, so it's either lesbians or nothing. :/

Davian93
01-15-2013, 06:16 PM
I also thought "pillow friends" was ambiguous--not in a sly way. I thought it implied the kind of relationship Egwene and Elayne had in the Tower, and in some cases might have implied more.

But people love the black and white, so it's either lesbians or nothing. :/

I think it was mostly some casual lesbian action due to the cloistered nature of AS training but that some groups got misinterpreted as having that type of relationship due to their friendships (Elayne/Egwene and possibly Moraine/Siuan...though I'm not sure that the latter was purely a friendship)

Kurtz
01-15-2013, 06:24 PM
I think it was mostly some casual lesbian action due to the cloistered nature of AS training but that some groups got misinterpreted as having that type of relationship due to their friendships (Elayne/Egwene and possibly Moraine/Siuan...though I'm not sure that the latter was purely a friendship)

I've read very little to suggest otherwise tbf. In New Spring Moiraine doesn't know whether Siuan has been with a man and nearly shits when Siuan twitches a hip in a flirtatious gesture.

Hardly representative of friends who have been making each others' backs arch for the last few years.

The whole concept of pillow friends was introduced to explain why nobody remembered Siuan and Moiraine were great friends. It doesn't obviously matter but if either of them did have sexual relationship in the Tower, Myrelle was probably a more likely partner.

Terez
01-15-2013, 06:39 PM
I also thought "pillow friends" was ambiguous--not in a sly way. I thought it implied the kind of relationship Egwene and Elayne had in the Tower, and in some cases might have implied more.

But people love the black and white, so it's either lesbians or nothing. :/
RJ said it was, and seemed surprised that people defended the 'innocent' interpretation.

And for MJJ, as posted by DomA, pillow friends are not just good friends. Oh, they are that, too, but they also get hot and sweaty together and muss up the sheets something fierce. By the way, pillow friends is a term used in the White Tower. The same relationship between men or women elsewhere would be called something else, depending on the country.
You can thank Dom for that. ;)

LeeringCorpse
01-15-2013, 11:09 PM
… but that some groups got misinterpreted as having that type of relationship due to their friendships (Elayne/Egwene and possibly Moraine/Siuan...
Ah, that must be why I thought Pillow Friends needn’t always be sexual in nature, that they could be platonic as well. And I know I never read a scene in New Spring were Moiraine, in the dark of night, quietly closes the door to Siuan’s quarters and steals herself back to her own room with a slight dampness to her hair and a fading flush from her cheeks. I think I would have remembered reading something like that :D

jana
01-15-2013, 11:31 PM
RJ said it was, and seemed surprised that people defended the 'innocent' interpretation.


You can thank Dom for that. ;)

I miss MJJ

GonzoTheGreat
01-16-2013, 04:32 AM
It would be like if there was a scene of five guys in a communal bath all washing their junk as a way to make up for the unbalanced female to male nudity ratio.
The closest that I can think of is the scene of five guys in a communal bath all washing their junk, when they arrive in the Stag and Lion in Baerlon. Is that good enough for you? :p

DahLliA
01-16-2013, 04:42 AM
Did it bother you all the other times it was mentioned previously?

If that was for me, then nope.

Can't really remember any other times apart from the AS pillowfriend ones.

And they weren't so glaring because it makes sense to mention them when you're running around a tower filled with girls.

Terez
01-16-2013, 09:08 AM
What about Ailil and Shalon?

Crispin's Crispian
01-16-2013, 10:43 AM
RJ said it was, and seemed surprised that people defended the 'innocent' interpretation.


You can thank Dom for that. ;)

I remember what RJ said--I'm saying that when reading the books I never thought "pillow friends" always and only meant lovers.

Terez
01-16-2013, 11:32 AM
Then why did you imply that those of us who believed otherwise were being unreasonable?

Crispin's Crispian
01-16-2013, 12:06 PM
Unreasonable is a little strong, but in context I still didn't see the need to jump to a black and white conclusion. I think Davian is probably right, though--non-sexual relationships were misconstrued or derogatorily called as such.

mogi67
01-16-2013, 01:39 PM
What happens in the White Tower stays in the White Tower :cool: