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Ishara
01-15-2013, 10:14 PM
So, now that all is said and done and the Last Battle is over, we have some major re-buiding and consolidation to occur. This is complicated, in part, by the Peace of the Dragon. I've bolded the bits I would to discuss personally, but feel free to jump in! It's LONG (cause man, there a lot of countries), but there's a TL;DR at the bottom. ;)

Starting with the Borderlands:

A. Shienar
- obliterated by the Trolloc Horde, major cities/ fortresses of Fal Moran and Fal Dara (and others) destroyed by Lan's army
- King Easar survived the Last Battle alive and well
- do we know if Agelmar survived?

While a disproportionately large portion of the warriors of Shienar died fighting the Shadow, with the King alive, and the Blight receding by the day, there's no reason that they wouldn't rebuild.

In this case, the Dragon's Peace will actually work in the favour of Shienar allowing Easar the latitude to rebuild and repopulate without worrying about the other nations trying to grab territory.

B. Arafel
- fared the best of all the Borderlands, with Shol Arbela still standing
- King Paitar survived the Last Battle, although his sister Aes Sedai Kiruna did not

Similar to Shienar, while a disproportionately large portion of the warriors of Arafel died fighting the Shadow, with the King alive, and the Blight receding by the day, there's no reason that they wouldn't consolidate and repopulate, the Dragon's Peace is a good thing for the nation here.

C. Kandor
- obliterated by the Trolloc Horde
- Queen Ethenielle survived

Similar to Shienar and Arafel, while a disproportionately large portion of the warriors of Kandor died fighting the Shadow and the cities/ fortresses destroyed with the Queen alive, and the Blight receding by the day, there's no reason that they wouldn't consolidate and repopulate, the Dragon's Peace is a good thing for the nation here.

D. Saldaea
- fared better than Kandor and Shienar, but worse than Arafel with Maradon destroyed in tGS
- Queen Tenobia dead in the fighting leading up to the Last battle
- heir Davram Bashere (and wife) died in the fighting of the Last Battle, with Bashere's leadership capabilities significantly in question as a result of Graendal's Compulsion anyways
- second-in-line Faile (Zarine) Bashere survived the Last Battle

Presumably, Faile will take the Throne of Saldaea with Perrin as her Consort (thus fulfilling one of Min's Viewings). But this complicates issues with regards to Andor and the Two Rivers leadership that she and Perrin had taken on. Do they split their time between the two (thus causing real tension with Elayne about their long-term intentions), or do they leave the Two Rivers to Tam, now that he's been made a Lord by Perrin?

I think in this case, the Dragon's Peace will be what allows Faile to get her footing as Queen without having to worry (too much) about what Elayne may do, given her self-confessed interest in having a stake in that throne. I do foresee summer visits to Emond's Field so that Haral Luhann can dandle a grand-baby or two on his knees though.

Moving on to central Randland:

E. Andor
- Caemlyn destroyed by the Trollocs, but other large city centres left intact
- Queen Elayne survived the Last Battle, as did her unborn twins (who we know will be born healthy), but her First Prince of the Sword died in Battle, as did her Captain of the Guard

I suspect that Charlz Guybon will happily take on the mantle of Captain of the Guard. But as for the First Prince...I don't see Galad taking on that role (or Elayne wanting him to). She also has no Consort, as Rand is ostensibly dead. I don't see him giving up anonymity to be her Consort, even part of the time. So, does she make a political marriage or appoint someone else to the role of First Prince? And who?

Also in Andor, we have the Two Rivers. Is the agreement hammered out between Elayne and Perrin now moot if they move to Saldaea, or does it now apply to Tam, as Steward? Now that everyone knows that her twins are Rand's, it stands to reason that she'd want the Two Rivers for them. I can see her honouring Tam as Rand's father, but wonder how far that goes for her. Speaking of which, did Tam know that her babies are Rand's?

F. Cairhien
- relatively intact after the Last Battle
- Elayne declared Queen, but not yet crowned
- Moiraine Damodred (sister to King Laman) survived the Last Battle
- Galad Damodred (nephew to King Laman) survived the Last Battle

I don't think Elayne will give up this crown willingly. Arguments have been made for and against Moiraine assuming the throne, and I think she would certainly make a wise and just Queen, but I'm not at all sure that Elayne would stand for it, Moiraine wanting it aside. We have to remember that Moiraine renouncing her claim to the throne was made over 20 years ago, and that people and circumstances change. Maybe Elayne admits that maybe she bit off more than could chew and asks Moiraine to be her Steward in Cairhien?


The Dragon's Peace (which I'm sure Elayne signed as the Ruler of both Andor and Cairhien) sort of prevents anything else from happening, doesn't it?

and everyone else!

G. Seanchan Rule (Amadicia, Altara and Tarabon)

Thanks to the Dragon's Peace, Fortuona and Mat (I REFUSE to call him Knotai) can consolidate their power base without reprisal. It also prevents them from expanding their borders. But all existing damane are theirs to keep, which will certainly create tension with the Aiel, especially.

H. Ghealdan

I'd say that Alliandre's position is suddenly a lot better after the Last Battle than before. Now she's the Liege Lady of the Consort of Saldaea, not just some jumped up Lord of the Two Rivers. She'll keep her Kingdom, and if Faile makes sure that she doesn't forget her alliance, I don' think it will be too hard for her either.

I. Murandy

The Dragon's Peace was an excellent move for Rhoedran. He'll stay his nasty, corpulent self behind his borders and Elayne will hopefully stay one step ahead of him.

J. Illian

Gregorin is out of a job, I'd say, now that Mattin Stephanoes is still alive and well. Thoughts?

K. Tear

My bet? King Darlin stays King, marries Caraline Damodred and the Dragon's Peace keeps his borders scure from Seanchan invasion.

L. Mayene

Berelain can be safe from incursions from Tear now, and will have her Consort in Galad. Does she ally herself with the Seanchan?

M. Arad Doman

Ituralde is stuck as King, for sure. Which, great. I like him. I hope the Compulsion is easy for Nynaeve to find and fix.

N. Tar Valon/ White Tower

I don't see how Cadsuane is going to get out of being raised to the Amyrlin Seat (sweet justice), so she may as well suck it up and be an agent of change. Does she honour Egwene's intention to bring in all channelers in some way/shape/form? How? Does the White Tower ally with or integrate the Black Tower (led by Logain, obvs)?

O. Children of the Light

I don't think Galad signed the Dragon's Peace, so they're on their own. Do they disband, or become a part of Mayene's army, with Gallene conveniently dead?

TL;DR

- do we know if Agelmar survived?

- Presumably, Faile will take the Throne of Saldaea with Perrin as her Consort (thus fulfilling one of Min's Viewings). But this complicates issues with regards to Andor and the Two Rivers leadership that she and Perrin had taken on. Do they split their time between the two (thus causing real tension with Elayne about their long-term intentions), or do they leave the Two Rivers to Tam, now that he's been made a Lord by Perrin?

- So, does Elayne make a political marriage or appoint someone else to the role of First Prince? And who?

- Is the agreement hammered out between Elayne and Perrin now moot if they move to Saldaea, or does it now apply to Tam, as Steward?

- Speaking of which, did Tam know that her babies are Rand's?

- Maybe Elayne admits that maybe she bit off more than could chew and asks Moiraine to be her Steward in Cairhien?

- Gregorin is out of a job, I'd say, now that Mattin Stephanoes is still alive and well.

- Does Berelain ally herself with the Seanchan?

- Does Cadsuane honour Egwene's intention to bring in all channelers in some way/shape/form? How?

- Does the White Tower ally with or integrate the Black Tower (led by Logain, obvs)?

- Do the Whitecloaks disband, or become a part of Mayene's army, with Gallene conveniently dead?

Khoram
01-15-2013, 10:28 PM
Can't forget that Tear's borders are also secure from those pesky Illianers, too.

I'm pretty sure Galad signed the Dragon's Peace. I may be remembering wrong, though. :/

The agreement between Elayne and Perrin shouldn't be moot. At least, as long as it wasn't dependent on TG. I don't have my books in front of me.

Dom
01-15-2013, 11:03 PM
H. Ghealdan

I'd say that Alliandre's position is suddenly a lot better after the Last Battle than before. Now she's the Liege Lady of the Consort of Saldaea, not just some jumped up Lord of the Two Rivers.


Perrin will be King and co-ruler of Saldaea, not just consort, according to laws similar to Malkier's. That's why Tenobia didn't wish to marry.

For Alliandre/Perrin/Elayne the alliance has lost most of its interest... unless shortly after TG, the Peace of the Dragon, which now prevails over it, falls apart.

Otherwise the alliance is meaningless. Perrin can no longer come defend her country by the Peace's term, which makes the fact he's her liege lord wholly symbolic only, and Perrin and Alliandre might decide to revoke her oaths. Being her liege is essentially that: Perrin took Ghealdan under his personal protection, in exchange for Ghealdan's military service should he call for it. Perrin can no longer fulfill his obligations as liege. By the treaty it's forbidden, and so is Ghealdan providing military service to Perrin in return. The deal is technically void.

Ghealdan's borders are now protected by the Peace of the Dragon, it's to the Aiel rather than Perrin Alliandre will turn if the country is threatened. Then the Peace imposed global regulations and tariffs, so the alliance with Perrin/Elayne has become meaningless as far as the allegiance is concerned, and fairly useless politically and economically. Militarily, it's null and void.

Elayne's agreement with Perrin stands. He promised if Faile and him took the throne of Saldaea, one of his children would inherit his role as Steward and that child would first renounce his place in the Saldaean succession, in essence that child will found an Andoran junior branch of Perrin's House, under the Queen of Andor and no longer having any legal right to the Saldaean succession. Elayne of course made that deal so the Two Rivers territory never passed in control of the Broken Crown should Faile gain it. No one foresaw it would happen so fast, without children yet. But it changes nothing to Elayne that the King of Saldaea is also personally lord for territories in Andor under her authority. It just means Perrin will not likely administrate his Andoran territory himself, but it's essentially a town, so he'll name a governor or steward. It could be Tam, but it could also well be the town's current Mayor Bran al'Vere. Perrin is very likely to keep to the traditions of holding elections for the Mayor and the two councils. There may or not be a governor/steward over the Mayor.

When Perrin and Faile have a younger child of age, he'll move to the TR and take over.

Sinistrum
01-15-2013, 11:30 PM
do we know if Agelmar survived?

It was never mentioned. But generally I agree on Shienar, Arafel, and Kandor.

Presumably, Faile will take the Throne of Saldaea with Perrin as her Consort (thus fulfilling one of Min's Viewings). But this complicates issues with regards to Andor and the Two Rivers leadership that she and Perrin had taken on. Do they split their time between the two (thus causing real tension with Elayne about their long-term intentions), or do they leave the Two Rivers to Tam, now that he's been made a Lord by Perrin?


According to the compact they agreed with Elayne, they'd probably have to abdicate their authority in Two Rivers to a steward until one of their children was ready to ascended to the High Seat (see tToM p. 699). I'd imagine Tam would be the ideal choice for that.

I suspect that Charlz Guybon will happily take on the mantle of Captain of the Guard.

Agreed.

So, does she make a political marriage or appoint someone else to the role of First Prince? And who?

I don't think she necessarily needs one. I always found the First Prince of the Sword and Captain of the Guard roles to be redundant. Morgase dealt without one with Gareth Bryne, and so did Elayne in her early reign with Birgette.

Is the agreement hammered out between Elayne and Perrin now moot if they move to Saldaea, or does it now apply to Tam, as Steward?

No they had a clause in such an eventuality hammered out by Alliandre. I think Perrin would get to pick his steward, which as I said above, would probably be Tam.

I don't think Elayne will give up this crown willingly. Arguments have been made for and against Moiraine assuming the throne, and I think she would certainly make a wise and just Queen, but I'm not at all sure that Elayne would stand for it, Moiraine wanting it aside. We have to remember that Moiraine renouncing her claim to the throne was made over 20 years ago, and that people and circumstances change. Maybe Elayne admits that maybe she bit off more than could chew and asks Moiraine to be her Steward in Cairhien?

Moiraine has dedicated her life to the White Tower. Given that Egwene accepted her back, despite the charges levied against her and her reduced strength, I don't think she will leave. She's too much of a Blue (read causehead) for mere governance. Anyways I doubt Thom would want to go back to Cairhein given how he left last time.

G. Seanchan Rule (Amadicia, Altara and Tarabon)

Thanks to the Dragon's Peace, Fortuona and Mat (I REFUSE to call him Knotai) can consolidate their power base without reprisal. It also prevents them from expanding their borders. But all existing damane are theirs to keep, which will certainly create tension with the Aiel, especially.

But for how long? There are five factors to consider here in their continued practice of slavery. A. The revelation of sul'adam being channelers who can learn, which she never really has dealt with psychologically outside of hamfisted denials of being different due to choice. B. Mat's influence on Tuon. C. Min's influenceo n Tuon D. Setalle Anan's influence on Tuon. E. whatever Hawkwing may have said to Tuon during the battle at the fields. You also have to consider Aviendha's vision. There was the implication in it that Tuon would have been wise enough to have averted the Aiel/Seanchan war by doing something. The most obvious option would have been to apology for the Aiel damane and release them.

I agree with you on Tear, Illian, Ghealdan, Arad Domane, and Murandy.

L. Mayene

Berelain can be safe from incursions from Tear now, and will have her Consort in Galad. Does she ally herself with the Seanchan

The most likely option is she allies herself with Andor. It was implied that would happen in the discussion between Perrin, Faile, Elayne, Morgase, and Alliandre regarding elevating Perrin to High Lord.

N. Tar Valon/ White Tower

I don't see how Cadsuane is going to get out of being raised to the Amyrlin Seat (sweet justice), so she may as well suck it up and be an agent of change. Does she honour Egwene's intention to bring in all channelers in some way/shape/form? How? Does the White Tower ally with or integrate the Black Tower (led by Logain, obvs)?

I don't think she has a choice when it comes to the age limit/novice issue. That milk has already been spilled. Anyways I think she will be quite impressed with Sharina, and thus see the value in allowing any and all to come. Same thing with the Kin retirement plan now that the secret of the Oath rod is out. As for ties to the Aiel, once again I think she honors it. She respects Sorilea too much to go back on the word of the Amyrlin. That leaves the sea folk which I think she has to honor if for no other reason than they would go running around spreading tales of Aes Sedai lying if they didn't. As for the Black Tower, while I don't think they merge, I definitely think they remained tied. Probably as a recruitment source for Warders. Pevara and Androl really paved the way for what might occur there.

O. Children of the Light

I don't think Galad signed the Dragon's Peace, so they're on their own. Do they disband, or become a part of Mayene's army, with Gallene conveniently dead?

I think they cease to exist and their men fold into Mayene, with little negligible result in terms of increased power. Considering that most of them were a. decimated in battle b. betrayed many of their tenants fighting side by side with Aes Sedai, Male Channlers, men with Goldeneyes, and all sorts of other "unholy" allies, and c. are led by someone without the rabidness usually associated with them, that their doctrine is pretty much broken. Those loyal to Galad stay in Mayene (a political marriage that further cements ties to Andor) and the others just drift off into whatever land they choose.

Cortar
01-15-2013, 11:48 PM
Im going to assume that all of the Blight will disappear. How will they handle who gets that land?

Sinistrum
01-15-2013, 11:50 PM
Im going to assume that all of the Blight will disappear. How will they handle who gets that land?

The Aiel Peacekeepers need a base of operations and Aviendha didn't seem to keen on going back to the Waste. Need, meet opportunity. Anyways, a good portion of that territory will end up reconstituting Malkier.

LeeringCorpse
01-16-2013, 12:33 AM
G. Seanchan Rule (Amadicia, Altara and Tarabon)

Thanks to the Dragon's Peace, Fortuona and Mat (I REFUSE to call him Knotai) can consolidate their power base without reprisal. It also prevents them from expanding their borders. But all existing damane are theirs to keep, which will certainly create tension with the Aiel, especially.
Not necessarily, if I’m not mistaken Fortuona said the Empress doesn’t need to follow treaties, so I would imagine whether Fortuona keeps the Dragon’s Peace is up in the air… and with her forces “quitting the field” and then coming back, her armies would be in a better state to start invading other lands if the Empress(may she live forever) takes it upon herself to do so.

fionwe1987
01-16-2013, 04:00 AM
- King Paitar survived the Last Battle, although his sister Aes Sedai Kiruna did not
I have no memory of Kiruna dying at all! When was this?

E. Andor
- Caemlyn destroyed by the Trollocs, but other large city centres left intact
- Queen Elayne survived the Last Battle, as did her unborn twins (who we know will be born healthy), but her First Prince of the Sword died in Battle, as did her Captain of the Guard

I suspect that Charlz Guybon will happily take on the mantle of Captain of the Guard. But as for the First Prince...I don't see Galad taking on that role (or Elayne wanting him to). She also has no Consort, as Rand is ostensibly dead. I don't see him giving up anonymity to be her Consort, even part of the time. So, does she make a political marriage or appoint someone else to the role of First Prince? And who?
I think there's a chance Perival Mantear, likely to be a second cousin of Elayne's kids from Rand's side, will be made First Prince. At least, that's what I thought RJ's intention was in KoD, where it was remarked how clever Perival was.

A nice option for Captain of the Guard would be Talmanes, actually. He saved Caemlyn, but is Cairheinin, and belongs to the legendary Band. It would be an excellent step to integrate the halves of the Court of the Sun to have an Andoran Queen's chief military advisor be Cairheinin. Kind of like Egwene picking Silviana as Keeper (what the hell happened to her, by the way?).

I don't think Elayne will give up this crown willingly. Arguments have been made for and against Moiraine assuming the throne, and I think she would certainly make a wise and just Queen, but I'm not at all sure that Elayne would stand for it, Moiraine wanting it aside. We have to remember that Moiraine renouncing her claim to the throne was made over 20 years ago, and that people and circumstances change. Maybe Elayne admits that maybe she bit off more than could chew and asks Moiraine to be her Steward in Cairhien?

Elayne is definitely not giving it up. It makes no sense. With her old capital gone, and Cairhein owing its survival to her, there's every reason to move her capital to Cairhein, at least for now.


G. Seanchan Rule (Amadicia, Altara and Tarabon)

Thanks to the Dragon's Peace, Fortuona and Mat (I REFUSE to call him Knotai) can consolidate their power base without reprisal. It also prevents them from expanding their borders. But all existing damane are theirs to keep, which will certainly create tension with the Aiel, especially.
Per Tuon's agreement with Egwene, any damane who wishes to is free to go to the Tower. I suspect there will be more than a few "Alivia" cases among the Seanchan damane. And the Aiel and the Aes Sedai will mostly ask to leave, of course, as will any remaining Windfinders.

I'm sure Tuon will try to send people to other lands to preach the Way of the Leash. She'll probably stop soon enough, especially with Mat and Min pointing out the sheer idiocy of the move.

J. Illian

Gregorin is out of a job, I'd say, now that Mattin Stephanoes is still alive and well. Thoughts?
There's also a chance Elayne will claim it for her son. Most likely, though, Stephanoes will take the Laurel Crown back.

K. Tear

My bet? King Darlin stays King, marries Caraline Damodred and the Dragon's Peace keeps his borders scure from Seanchan invasion.
One of the big changes is likely to be the attitude towards channelers.

N. Tar Valon/ White Tower

I don't see how Cadsuane is going to get out of being raised to the Amyrlin Seat (sweet justice), so she may as well suck it up and be an agent of change.
She doesn't have much to change, though. I suspect she'll find her job enitrely different from what she'd have expected before. The vast majority of Aes Sedai who were traditionalist are dead. The new breed of Novices are safe and sound, and ready to become Aes Sedai. They're fiercely loyal to Egwene, and quite quite unlikely to be happy being indoctrinated in the old way. They're wonderful clay for Cadsuane to mould. Strong, experienced in the world, not coddled, sheltered girls in women's clothing. Between Cadsuane, Nynaeve and Sharina (and Egwene, of course), the old Tower is doomed, exactly as Fortuona's omen predicted.
Does she honour Egwene's intention to bring in all channelers in some way/shape/form?
Assuming the Hall accepted Egwene's plan (and there's no reason to believe otherwise), she won't have much choice. Nor will she balk. She wanted Wise Ones to come to the Tower as early as aCoS. In aMoL, she has thoughts pretty similar to Egwene's on how good a dose it will be for the Tower to have Wise Ones among them. And if anyone knows the value of women weak in the Power, its Cadsuane. She'll likely leap on Egwene's plan and expand it.
How?
With the Wise Ones, there's already mutual respect, shared success in one of the most important tasks of this Age, and so on.

As for the Sea Folk, Egwene took care of things. By freeing Tremalking and other Sea Folk lands for them, Egwene has basically put them in the debt of the Amyrlin Seat. The flip side of their constant bargaining is that the SF are very serious about their debts. Plus, their soon to be Mistress of the Ships is afraid of and respectful of Cadsuane. This will work out.

As for between the Aiel and the Sea Folk, they have many things in common. Wariness of Aes Sedai. A strong sense of honor and debt. Joint work at Shayol Ghul, etc. They'll obviously grow closer together too.

Does the White Tower ally with or integrate the Black Tower (led by Logain, obvs)?
Down the road, almost certainly. Remember Cadsuane's lesson for the Asha'man? That hasn't happened yet.

O. Children of the Light

I don't think Galad signed the Dragon's Peace, so they're on their own. Do they disband, or become a part of Mayene's army, with Gallene conveniently dead?
Galad signed the document. But they also have less reason to hate channelers. Westland ones at least. I suspect most of them will join up any mission sent to Shara.

ETA: Another reason Cadsuane is perfect as Amyrlin is the way she deals with rulers. She reprimands (sharply) if they're foolish. She's not above storming in and leaving their rule in ruins. But her instinct is to strengthen them and let them do their thing. Egwene might have a disinclination for needlessly manipulating rulers, but she was also a little too in love with the Game itself. I doubt it would have ever gotten out of hand, but I suspect Egwene and Elayne would have spent years plying subtle stratagems like kids with toys, especially over the Kin, and any plans Elayne may have to fold the Black Tower into Andor-Cairhein. Cadsuane is critical to both. For one, she's about to die soon but for the Oaths being removed. Its very likely her age will precipitate a very quick turnabout on the OR, especially when the library ter'angreal reveals its true purpose. With the retirement plan shattered, there's very little reason for the Kin to not return to the Tower. Like Egwene, Cadsuane understands the great sense in keeping even weak women in the Tower, and unlike Egwene, Cadsuane has enough clout from the get go to come up with a strategy like "all Tower initiates can become AS, regardless of strength". Given the severe blow to their numbers, the traditionalist AS are likely to be alright with this too. Its been foreshadowed, too, that the Tower would have to "lower" its standards.

Scrooge
01-16-2013, 05:22 AM
Starting with the Borderlands

I expect them all to rebuild. They all have surviving monarchs or obvious successors with no obvious pretender claimants to impede the progress. The real interesting bit to me is what exactly happens to them. Their entire society was based on defending the Blight which is no longer relevant. We have seen Borderland merchants before but there's something to be lost when a military society lacks anyone to fight. I would be very saddened to see them degenerate to "Southern politics" as it was termed.

I don't see Galad taking on that role (or Elayne wanting him to).

I think you're wrong about Elayne. Her previous negative feelings toward Galad were a child's feelings (which she seems to have largely outgrown) and her mistaken presumption that he resented Gawyn, which she now knows isn't true and was never true. The last few books, her attitude toward him has noticeably mellowed.

She's already lost one brother and a woman she considered a sister. Especially given their recent interactions, I doubt Elayne would continue to shun her only remaining sibling.

I actually suspect she will name him First Prince with duties suspended in absentia like she did for Gawyn. The only reason I could see her not doing it is to not be seen as "replacing" Gawyn, but I think Elayne's too much of a political animal to not fill the role when she has a perfectly suitable candidate. Makes sense for her to have somone fill the position because she won't take a consort.

So, does she make a political marriage or appoint someone else to the role of First Prince? And who?

I would eat my boots if she ever accepted any kind of marriage to anyone not Rand. It totally flies in the face of her character. Usually, political marriages are for political alliances -- which are largely gonna be irrelevant in the short term with the Dragon's Peace -- and producing heirs. She already has a Daughter-Heir on the way. She no longer has any real need for a political marriage.

I don't think Elayne will give up this crown willingly

Agree completely. Elayne is nothing if not predictable, and I can't imagine her abdicating anything ever. Her whole personal identity is tied to her being a ruler. It'd strike me as completely out of character to give it up *before* the Dragon's Peace, and now with it, she doesn't even have to spend any real effort on defending it from outside interest.

People keep talking about Moiraine as queen or steward, but I can't see it. The woman is the prototype for what all Blues should be, her place is out in the world, not sitting on a throne. I don't imagine it'd happen, but I'd be HIGHLY amused if Galad was steward of Cairhien, given he is a Damodred. I imagine his dealings with the Game of Houses could be potentially hilarious.

The Dragon's Peace (which I'm sure Elayne signed as the Ruler of both Andor and Cairhien) sort of prevents anything else from happening, doesn't it?

It protects from outsider interests sure. But it's Cairhien. The more likely problems are gonna come from within. Cairhien didn't become part of Andor, Elayne's accession merely meant the two seperate nations would share a common monarch. There's nothing stopping someone from overthrowing Elayne off the Sun Throne from within. National borders wouldn't change, I can't see why the Dragon's Peace would apply.

Gregorin is out of a job, I'd say, now that Mattin Stephanoes is still alive and well. Thoughts?

Highly doubt it. Stepaneos has been a political prisoner held outside and away from Illian for a while now. I can't imagine he has any real leverage short of Aes Sedai manipulation, which might still happen among the rank-and-file Aes Sedai, but I can't see Cadsuane giving two craps about putting him back as king.

Gregorin was head of gov't of the nation during the Last Battle. Regardless of how bloodied Illian came out of the fight, the Light ultimately prevailed. Can't imagine that doesn't count for something for Gregorin, I'd bet the people of Illian are more inclined to look favorably to him than anything else. With Rand gone, I see him taking the title of a king and keeping it.

Why would the Illian people care to reinstate Stepaneos over a ruler who just came out with a victory in the Last Battle? Just cause he was king *two* heads of states ago? Seems a flimsy reason to me. If anything, they might see him as someone too stupid to hold his crown when their people marched off to Tarmon Gaidon, or worse they might perceive his detainment as him running off when the country needed a ruler most.

Ituralde is stuck as King, for sure. Which, great. I like him. I hope the Compulsion is easy for Nynaeve to find and fix.

Graendel had to be subtle, I doubt the Compulsion is beyond Nynaeve's ability given what she's accomplished before. Even if she never gets around to Healing him, I don't think it'd much matter. I doubt she took the time to plant "in case I lose here are long-term bad decisions for you to make to screw up Arad Doman in the future type" Compulsion. Graendel was playing to win, and working behind enemy lines in perilous conditions.

Does she honour Egwene's intention to bring in all channelers in some way/shape/form? How? Does the White Tower ally with or integrate the Black Tower (led by Logain, obvs)?

Agree with Sinistrum. One encounter with Sharina and Cadsuane wouldn't fight the changes. If anyone appreciates strong-willed women with backbones and wants more of them in the WT, it's Cadsuane. As long as they don't try and butt heads with her.

As for the Wise Ones, she already respects some of them. I can't see her having any problems with Accepted studying under them, especially since I don't think Cadsuane would care to micromanage enough to even bother with what Accepted were doing. The Sea Folk I'm not so sure about, but an agreements is an agreement. Nothing to gain and too much effort for her to bother going against it. What she thinks of the Kin though, I've no clue. She won't have to do much with Egwene's agreements anyway. Egwene already did all the work by hammering out the Accepted appretinceships.

Far more interesting is her relationship with the Black Tower. It's very hard to imagine this broken shell of Logain being able to go head to head with Cadsuane in any meaningful way. The only thing there is that from various PoVs, we've seen that many of the light-side Asha'man that now control the Black Tower have strong conviction that the Black Tower is theirs and that it stands by itself. Imagine most of them are like that and have no inclination to give an inch to the White Tower.

Another interesting point of contention is Elayne and the Black Tower. Logain and crew bailed her out of a tight spot, but for all that, they are more or less a military organization on Andoran soil that don't feel one iota beholden to her. That strikes me as a kettle waiting to boil over in an ugly way.


Berelain can be safe from incursions from Tear now, and will have her Consort in Galad.
I don't think Galad signed the Dragon's Peace, so they're on their own. Do they disband, or become a part of Mayene's army, with Gallene conveniently dead?

I really really liked Berelain in the story. But regardless of how much I like her, I wonder whether their relationship will continue now that Galad is crippled and disfigured. I want it to, cause I don't want Berelain to end up as vain as many of the characters perceive her, but I can't help but think it's a possibility she is.

Anyway, I very much disliked Galad's facial scar. The man never cared about his own looks, and was never vain about himself. It seems to me that his disfigurement was more a punishment to Berelain than to Galad and didn't see the point.

Anyway, regarding the Children, it'd amuse me if they ended up in Mayene. By Galad's own thoughts, they are primarily a cavalry unit, and Mayene exists on a pennisula surrounded by water to the east, west and south. Immediately north is the Drowned Lands, an impassable marshland, and north of that appear to be the mountains that make up the Spine. In that kind of terrain, the Children are more or less useless as a fighting force.

Not necessarily, if I’m not mistaken Fortuona said the Empress doesn’t need to follow treaties, so I would imagine whether Fortuona keeps the Dragon’s Peace is up in the air… and with her forces “quitting the field” and then coming back, her armies would be in a better state to start invading other lands if the Empress(may she live forever) takes it upon herself to do so.

The Seanchan also put great value in oaths. Rand's negotiations with her stated the peace would last at least a hundred years with more if he could manage it. Given her conversation with Egwene about educators and the lot, I don't see her intending to violate the peace in her lifetime. One thing Tuon is not is a liar. She agreed to the conditions.

Given that Rand secured her borders with no effort on her part, and the empire in civil war, and her access to Travel'ing, I'd imagine her obvious focus ought be securing the actual Crystal Throne. Remember that the lands she now holds were easy meat. She knows the nations further out won't fall so simply, Ituralde already proved that to her. Also, historically, it took hundreds of years to originally consolidate the Seanchan empire. There's far better reasons to take her fight away from the other nations than there are for her to violate the treaty.

Cairhein owing its survival to her, there's every reason to move her capital to Cairhein, at least for now.

I've seen people float this idea numerous times, and I just don't think it'll be. Caemlyn was sacked to be sure. But it wasn't nuked off the face of the planet. The destuction was done by fire and trollocs, not the One Power. Caemlyn was a city of stone. There was mention that after the city was theirs the Fades kept the trollocs from doing further damage to the city. That implies there was still enough of the city to further damage.

Regardless of how trashed the place is, I have to imagine enough of it survived to be habitable. Much like Rhuidean with its half finished buildings with few roofs. Wasn't comfortable, but you could live it in til it got built all the way up. To rebuild Caemlyn, people have to be in Caemlyn. I suppose workers could work all day and gateway to Cairhien for the night everyday, but I think Elayne would stay in the city as a statement if nothing else.

GonzoTheGreat
01-16-2013, 06:04 AM
Elayne is getting a lot of regional Stewards, isn't she? She'll need a Death Star to keep them all in line.

Scrooge
01-16-2013, 06:13 AM
She's the victorious High Commander of the Forces of Light. I imagine she can install more puppet governments in the future with her political capital.

It amuses me that Elayne will likely end up doing a better job at reviving Hawkwing's Empire than Tuon.

Xarra
01-16-2013, 07:54 AM
Sea Folk - The Mistress of the Ships viewing kind of got ignored, I liked them & wish they'd been elaborated on in the same way as the Seanchan. I know that the LB took place away from the sea, and there was the Bowl, but I was really looking forward to HOW whats-her-name (I'm at work) becomes MotS and the politics.

Rand as Consort - Rand now looks totally different and I assume can do Mask of Mirrors at will now. And Travel. It wouldn't be hard for Elayne to present a new man at court, 'fall in love' and marry Rand-in-disguise... Same for Min and Avi... Although he'd never know where he was sleeping as apparently that's the women's choice? o.O

Boli
01-16-2013, 07:54 AM
I see the whitecloaks merging into the White/Black tower actually. As its "military arm" to hunt down and capture rogue channelers all equiped with foxhead medallions.

It certainly fits with RJ's ironic future.

Xarra
01-16-2013, 07:58 AM
I see the whitecloaks merging into the White/Black tower actually. As its "military arm" to hunt down and capture rogue channelers all equiped with foxhead medallions.

It certainly fits with RJ's ironic future.

A quick rename as 'Greycloaks' perhaps? :p

Davian93
01-16-2013, 08:07 AM
A couple of quick thoughts:

There is a TON of open unclaimed land to consider. Who will claim it and what will happen with the people that didnt sign the Dragon's Peace (like the northen half of Almoth Plain, Far Madding, etc). Large portions of it are unihabited but its not all desolate. The Black Hills are inhabited with villages that Tar Valon doesnt claim, as is the area south of Shienar, the Plains of Maredo are somewhat populated, etc etc. Will new nations spring up, will the other countries lay claim ASAP or what? I mean, Elayne could very well double the size of Andor just by claiming the empty land north of her current borders...the same with Cairhien to the north and south.

That could get messy.

Also, what's to stop the Seanchan from gating into those areas to plant a flag and then claim them for Fortuona?

GonzoTheGreat
01-16-2013, 08:56 AM
Who gets to conquer Shara?

Davian93
01-16-2013, 08:57 AM
Who gets to conquer Shara?

Tuon will do that...after she's done with her own Consolidation.

GonzoTheGreat
01-16-2013, 09:03 AM
That gives them a whole generation to raise a new army of channelers, which might not be a good idea.

Davian93
01-16-2013, 09:07 AM
That gives them a whole generation to raise a new army of channelers, which might not be a good idea.

Meh...nobody else is in a real position to attack either right now.

Mort
01-16-2013, 10:03 AM
Demandred brought somewhere around 400 channelers with him from Shara. I think somewhere it said it was mostly all channelers Shara had. They are out of channelers, and that means out of a ruling class since the Ayyad ruled them all. There's gonna be a regime change there.

I guess RJs idea of another series concerning Mat and Tuon was gonna be about retaking Seanchan. If the Peace holds, there won't be any fun wars on the mainland for a while. Can't see anything worth reading happening on the mainland that isn't about wars :) Can't have a trilogy with just rebuilding and everyone being nice to each other :)

Did the Dragon's Peace specify how long it would be in effect? Forever? Until someone has the cohones to break it?

Terez
01-16-2013, 10:03 AM
The Dragon's Peace (which I'm sure Elayne signed as the Ruler of both Andor and Cairhien) sort of prevents anything else from happening, doesn't it?
The Peace secures the borders, not the rulers. I imagine Successions will still happen the same way, more or less, though the Aiel might have to intervene to prevent fighting.

Perrin will be King and co-ruler of Saldaea, not just consort, according to laws similar to Malkier's. That's why Tenobia didn't wish to marry.
People keep saying that, but it's never explicitly stated in the books. We didn't know for sure that Saldaea was a joint monarchy until the TOM glossary, I think.

Moiraine has dedicated her life to the White Tower. Given that Egwene accepted her back, despite the charges levied against her and her reduced strength, I don't think she will leave. She's too much of a Blue (read causehead) for mere governance.
This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the Blue Ajah. Just like in the real world, causes and politics are often intertwined. This is why Lelaine thought Elayne should have chosen the Blue. (Elayne realized she would have to choose Green when she bonded Birgitte.) This is why so many Amyrlins have come from the Blue. If one cares about a cause, one has the best chance of making a positive influence from a position of power. There are exceptions, like Moiraine's hunt for Rand, but Siuan was just as Blue and just as dedicated to that cause as she, and she did what she could to aid Moiraine from her position of power. And a ruler with strong alliances in the age of Traveling will not be as constrained as some people imagine. And beyond that, what causes would Moiraine want to pursue that are anything similar to her search for Rand, anyway? The Last Battle is over.

Anyways I doubt Thom would want to go back to Cairhein given how he left last time.I don't see why not. It was already hinted he would bard for Elayne there.

GonzoTheGreat
01-16-2013, 10:04 AM
"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."
Which boat was that?

Bonus question: can anyone see Logain balancing Cadsuane on his knee?

David Selig
01-16-2013, 12:46 PM
Cairhien and Andor are two separate realms who have a personal union in Elayne. They need to have two different capitals. Elayne may live mostly in Cairhien at first, but she'll definitely have a capital in Andor too, probably Caemlyn would be rebuilt.

Galad won't First Prince of the Sword since he has other duties as Lord Commander.

Weiramon
01-16-2013, 01:12 PM
Burn my soul, hopefully the captured Sisters will be free of those Seanchean.


Especially that handsome a'Roihan woman.

Sinistrum
01-16-2013, 01:12 PM
This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the Blue Ajah. Just like in the real world, causes and politics are often intertwined. This is why Lelaine thought Elayne should have chosen the Blue. (Elayne realized she would have to choose Green when she bonded Birgitte.) This is why so many Amyrlins have come from the Blue. If one cares about a cause, one has the best chance of making a positive influence from a position of power. There are exceptions, like Moiraine's hunt for Rand, but Siuan was just as Blue and just as dedicated to that cause as she, and she did what she could to aid Moiraine from her position of power. And a ruler with strong alliances in the age of Traveling will not be as constrained as some people imagine. And beyond that, what causes would Moiraine want to pursue that are anything similar to her search for Rand, anyway? The Last Battle is over.

And are those causes usually attached to nations or large ideals? My statement is not misunderstanding the Blue Ajah. They don't need the power and influence of a single nation to attach to their stereotypical goals. They've got all of that and more with the White Tower. As for what they could dedicate themselves too now, I see at least two major causes to go after. The first is the Seachan/damane/dacovale issue and the second is liberating the Sharans from the Shadow influenced leaders.

I don't see why not. It was already hinted he would bard for Elayne there.

Yes but that was before this conversation.

"I never have spent much of my time in Tar Valon," Moiraine said. "I think we shall enjoy traveling together." tToM p. 826

That is a very strong indicator of Moiraine's intent not to be tied down to one specific spot, which preclude both ruling in Cairhein or allowing Thom to be a bard in Caemlyn.

Terez
01-16-2013, 01:14 PM
The first is the Seachan/damane/dacovale issue and the second is liberating the Sharans from the Shadow influenced leaders.
And those with power are most likely to be able to influence either situation.

That is a very strong indicator of Moiraine's intent not to be tied down to one specific spot, which preclude both ruling in Cairhein or allowing Thom to be a bard in Caemlyn.
It's not any different from other characters' thoughts on what they will do in the future that turned out quite different than they expected.

Sinistrum
01-16-2013, 01:26 PM
And those with power are most likely to be able to influence either situation.

But if they've already got the power and influence of the White Tower behind them, what more would they need? Quite frankly Moiraine assuming the throne of Cairhein would reduce her power. Aes Sedai can go anywhere not controlled by Seancahn and at least be listened to. If she assumes the mantel of Queen of Cairhein, then she's just another ruler who will be embroiled in the standard plots and rivalries of such a nation. Such things would detract from her power and influence, especially if she were to depose another Aes Sedai to do it.

It's not any different from other characters' thoughts on what they will do in the future that turned out quite different than they expected.

And what evidence do we have that this intent has changed any? Since we, unfortunately, didn't get much in the way from Moiraine in the last novel, I'm pretty sure there isn't any.

Terez
01-16-2013, 01:28 PM
But if they've already got the power and influence of the White Tower behind them, what more would they need?
There is a difference between organizational power and personal power.

Quite frankly Moiraine assuming the throne of Cairhein would reduce her power.
That's BS.

Sinistrum
01-16-2013, 01:32 PM
There is a difference between organizational power and personal power

And Aes Sedai have always used organizational power in dealing with outsiders. Hence the build up of the mystique surrounding them.

That's BS

Mere assertion doesn't make an argument.

Terez
01-16-2013, 01:35 PM
Mere assertion doesn't make an argument.
Exactly.

Sinistrum
01-16-2013, 01:38 PM
So you agree with me that just calling my argument BS is just a mere assertion on your part, thus conceding my point. Good. Glad we could agree for once Terez. :D

SauceyBlueConfetti
01-16-2013, 01:45 PM
I am in the boat of Moraine ruling Cairhien.

I don't see how that would reduce her power. Her sole intent for the entirety of the the books was to (at first) RULE Rand and get him to the Last Battle, then HELP him win it.

Done, and done.

Now her attentions can turn to the things she loves (in no particular order):

1. Her homeland
2. Being Aes Sedai
3. Thom

All three of those can be accomplished, better-stronger-faster, by ruling a country that is---at the moment---floundering.

She will help rebuild the world by taking on the rule (even temporarily) of Cairhien. How is that reducing her power? Cuz she is uber-woman right now as the traveling, lower strength channeling, companion of a gleeman/bard? Huh?

Mort
01-16-2013, 05:28 PM
In Aviendahs viewing of the future, it seems that Elayne's children sits on a throne in Cairhien, with all the referencing to a "sun". Even though Aviendha may have changed the role for Aiel in the future it doesn't mean that much else is any different. Elayne's children will still rule Andor/Cairhien it seems. If Caemlyn would have been rebuilt (in that amount of time Avi sees the viewings) they would have been in new Caemlyn.

Terez
01-16-2013, 05:37 PM
In Aviendahs viewing of the future, it seems that Elayne's children sits on a throne in Cairhien, with all the referencing to a "sun". Even though Aviendha may have changed the role for Aiel in the future it doesn't mean that much else is any different. Elayne's children will still rule Andor/Cairhien it seems. If Caemlyn would have been rebuilt (in that amount of time Avi sees the viewings) they would have been in new Caemlyn.
They were.

She strode through the streets of Caemlyn, her near-sister carrying the banner of the Dragon to announce her lineage. Next to Oncala was the man for whom she would likely give up her spears. Hehyal, Dawn Runner, had killed more Seanchan than any of his society, gaining much ji. He had been granted permission to travel to Rhuidean last year to become clan chief....

...Finally, they were summoned to approach the Lion Throne. Talana's brother, her protector, stood behind her in court clothing—a vest and coat—hand on his sword. Oncala could have killed him while barely breaking a sweat....

....Oncala had to keep herself from yelling in victory. If Andor entered the war, the other nations would as well, particularly those in the Pact of the Griffin and those in the Court of the Sun. They looked to the Andoran Queen much as the other Aiel clans looked to Oncala. The blood of Rand al'Thor held much weight.
Andor was strongly allied with the Griffin (eagle/lion=Perrin) and the Court of the Sun, but no indication that her descendants ruled in Cairhien.

Sinistrum
01-16-2013, 05:58 PM
How is that reducing her power? Cuz she is uber-woman right now as the traveling, lower strength channeling, companion of a gleeman/bard? Huh?

Consider this. You are Moiraine, a member of the Blue Ajah and you need to garner support for anti-slavery efforts. You have Darlin. King of Tear. You go to him and talk to him about the importance of freeing the female channelers enslaved by the Seanchan. While not all suspicious are removed, because you're Aes Sedai, and he is Tearan, he at leasts listens to you right?

Now consider the reaction if you are Moiraine, Queen of Cairhein (One of Tear's two traditional rivals), who just forced out the Supreme Commander of the Light who you just finished throwing your support behind (though begrudgingly). You come to him with the same concerns. Do you honestly think King Darlin is going to listen to you with the same seriousness or less suspicion? Or would it be more? Would he suspect a Cairheinian Das Daemar plot to gain territory or a trade advantage over Tear? Would he resent the fact that you forced out someone who he respected and let lead him?

That is what I mean by less power. Taking the throne of a nation attaches your name and word to the reputation and history of that nation. That is not always a good or effective thing, epecially with a nation such as Cairhein and especially for someone who is Aes Sedai.

David Selig
01-16-2013, 06:20 PM
Honestly Queen of Cairhien is a pretty terrible job if you have the career option Moiraine has. Plotting and assassination are the national sports, and the country faces all kinds of serious problems after the long civil war, the Shaido invasion and the Trollocs.

Moiraine can still help her country a lot without being a Queen. I think she's earned the right to a more pleasant job at least in the first few years after all the sacrifices she made in the last 20 years.

Dom
01-16-2013, 07:00 PM
People keep saying that, but it's never explicitly stated in the books. We didn't know for sure that Saldaea was a joint monarchy until the TOM glossary, I think.

The glossary merely confirmed what we could deduce. The Malkieri custom was implied to be a pan-Borderland thing all along (northerners ways vs. the traditions of the southern realms).

Terez
01-16-2013, 07:15 PM
The glossary merely confirmed what we could deduce.
I agree. Just saying. :p

The Malkieri custom was implied to be a pan-Borderland thing all along (northerners ways vs. the traditions of the southern realms).
That was one of the arguments I always used, though the source was not really reality (unless you think el'Edeyn was explicit), but Kandor was an exception, so it couldn't be taken as a blanket rule. I thought the strongest arguments were Min's broken crown viewing and the Leane foreshadowing in TGH.

Sukoto
01-16-2013, 07:52 PM
The Dragon's Peace outlaws conquest, but does it prevent peaceful mergers and splits? To use a VERY hypothetical example, the Dragon's Peace would not prevent Elayne from granting total sovereignty to the Two Rivers. Perrin could then peacefully merge his homeland with Ghealdan to form a larger nation. They just couldn't break away through civil war or acquire other nations through conquest.

It opens up a wide array of possibilities.

metaphor
01-16-2013, 08:25 PM
Being queen would constraint Moiraine too much. She likes to move around and do things her way.



The Dragon's Peace outlaws conquest, but does it prevent peaceful mergers and splits? To use a VERY hypothetical example, the Dragon's Peace would not prevent Elayne from granting total sovereignty to the Two Rivers. Perrin could then peacefully merge his homeland with Ghealdan to form a larger nation. They just couldn't break away through civil war or acquire other nations through conquest.

It opens up a wide array of possibilities.

Actually it prevents just that.
It establishes that the borders can't change, and if 2 rulers marry their reigns must remain separate.




The Seanchan also put great value in oaths. Rand's negotiations with her stated the peace would last at least a hundred years with more if he could manage it. Given her conversation with Egwene about educators and the lot, I don't see her intending to violate the peace in her lifetime. One thing Tuon is not is a liar. She agreed to the conditions.


There's another thing to consider. The Seanchan worked behind the belief that channelers are uncontrollable wild beasts and are better off as slaves.
The new events have shown those beliefs wrong, and Min and Mat are there to remind Fortuona of this.

The other thing that worried them was that without damane their power would crumble, but there are new elements now:
Most of their new subjects have no problems with channelers, the development of new weapons make the use of channelers in war less important, while their contribution in research could be fundamental.
And, most importantly, they have far more sul'dam than damane.
If they accept to let them learn how to channel they could greatly increase their power in just a few years.


A couple of quick thoughts:

There is a TON of open unclaimed land to consider. Who will claim it and what will happen with the people that didnt sign the Dragon's Peace (like the northen half of Almoth Plain, Far Madding, etc). Large portions of it are unihabited but its not all desolate. The Black Hills are inhabited with villages that Tar Valon doesnt claim, as is the area south of Shienar, the Plains of Maredo are somewhat populated, etc etc. Will new nations spring up, will the other countries lay claim ASAP or what? I mean, Elayne could very well double the size of Andor just by claiming the empty land north of her current borders...the same with Cairhien to the north and south.

That could get messy.

Also, what's to stop the Seanchan from gating into those areas to plant a flag and then claim them for Fortuona?


Currently the population has been decimated, so there's little need to claim new land.
In the future those could become new nations.

Ishara
01-16-2013, 09:34 PM
There was too much to say in one post, so I'm parsing it out!

Perrin will be King and co-ruler of Saldaea, not just consort, according to laws similar to Malkier's. That's why Tenobia didn't wish to marry. Huh. Thanks for the reminder/ clarification. Excellent - I like this a lot.

Re: Alliandre
Perrin can no longer come defend her country by the Peace's term, which makes the fact he's her liege lord wholly symbolic only, and Perrin and Alliandre might decide to revoke her oaths. Being her liege is essentially that: Perrin took Ghealdan under his personal protection, in exchange for Ghealdan's military service should he call for it. Perrin can no longer fulfill his obligations as liege. By the treaty it's forbidden, and so is Ghealdan providing military service to Perrin in return. The deal is technically void. That clarifies a lot. Still though, I wouldn't be too surprised to see political alliances in the future with Ghealdan, at least if Alliandre is half as smart as she thinks she is. She'll work to cultivate and maintain her relationship with Perrin and Faile.

Elayne's agreement with Perrin stands. He promised if Faile and him took the throne of Saldaea, one of his children would inherit his role as Steward and that child would first renounce his place in the Saldaean succession, in essence that child will found an Andoran junior branch of Perrin's House, under the Queen of Andor and no longer having any legal right to the Saldaean succession. Elayne of course made that deal so the Two Rivers territory never passed in control of the Broken Crown should Faile gain it. No one foresaw it would happen so fast, without children yet. But it changes nothing to Elayne that the King of Saldaea is also personally lord for territories in Andor under her authority. It just means Perrin will not likely administrate his Andoran territory himself, but it's essentially a town, so he'll name a governor or steward. It could be Tam, but it could also well be the town's current Mayor Bran al'Vere. Perrin is very likely to keep to the traditions of holding elections for the Mayor and the two councils. There may or not be a governor/steward over the Mayor.
So, this is where I start to object to anyone BUT Tam. After all, Perrin made him a Lord (was that within his power to do?), everyone knows that he is the father of the Dragon Reborn and grand-father to the heirs of Andor and Cairhien. In my eyes, he's the perfect choice as Lord of the Two Rivers, with the Mayoral position still in play to run it administratively.

When Perrin and Faile have a younger child of age, he'll move to the TR and take over.
Which made perfect sense when they weren't ruling Saldaea. Faile knows better than most the fragility of a Royal line, with the death of her brother. I suspect she'll want to have more than a few kids just to be on the safe side. And the first-born would have to take precedence with regards to their own Royal line, would it not?


Moiraine has dedicated her life to the White Tower. Given that Egwene accepted her back, despite the charges levied against her and her reduced strength, I don't think she will leave. She's too much of a Blue (read causehead) for mere governance. Anyways I doubt Thom would want to go back to Cairhein given how he left last time.

[QUOTE=Sinistrum;209540]
The most likely option is she allies herself with Andor. It was implied that would happen in the discussion between Perrin, Faile, Elayne, Morgase, and Alliandre regarding elevating Perrin to High Lord.
Sorry, I must have missed that. In tGS?

Re: Former Blight Lands
The Aiel Peacekeepers need a base of operations and Aviendha didn't seem to keen on going back to the Waste. Need, meet opportunity. Anyways, a good portion of that territory will end up reconstituting Malkier.
I'd agree that the Aiel certainly need land of their own, but I wonder how long it will take for the Borderlanders to be okay with the Aiel occupying any of the land on their borders...LOL.

And yes, I don't see anyone begrudging Lan any and all of the former Blighted land for Malkier.

A couple of quick thoughts:

There is a TON of open unclaimed land to consider. Who will claim it and what will happen with the people that didnt sign the Dragon's Peace (like the northen half of Almoth Plain, Far Madding, etc). Large portions of it are unihabited but its not all desolate. The Black Hills are inhabited with villages that Tar Valon doesnt claim, as is the area south of Shienar, the Plains of Maredo are somewhat populated, etc etc. Will new nations spring up, will the other countries lay claim ASAP or what? I mean, Elayne could very well double the size of Andor just by claiming the empty land north of her current borders...the same with Cairhien to the north and south.We've read time and again that Rulers were constantly trying to claim land like the Plains of Maredo, but simply couldn't control it, and so ended up losing it in principle if not on paper. I think that the Rulers most likely to try it again (ahem, Elayne and Tuon) are the ones most desperately in need of consolidating their existing Kingdom(s) before trying to extend themselves outwards.

I'd say that the idea of new nations springing up is slim, given the huge population loss that just occurred. I'd say it's at least a generation before it becomes an issue, by which time the Aiel have had enough time to figure out their new roles and do them well.

Sinistrum
01-16-2013, 09:41 PM
Sorry, I must have missed that. In tGS?

ToM actually. Ch. A Teaching Chamber. p.699. Faile suggests it.

Ishara
01-16-2013, 09:54 PM
I'm going to assume that all of the Blight will disappear. How will they handle who gets that land?
I touched on this on the previous post, but I'd agree with Sini's suggestion that a lot of it will go to Malkier, and that it's an excellent place for the Aiel to finally settle.

Re: the Borderlands
The real interesting bit to me is what exactly happens to them. Their entire society was based on defending the Blight which is no longer relevant. We have seen Borderland merchants before but there's something to be lost when a military society lacks anyone to fight. I would be very saddened to see them degenerate to "Southern politics" as it was termed.
Agree that their future purpose will be interesting. War Games will only get them so far... But imagine what great cultural achievements will come out of the Borderlands now that their peoples aren't focused on war most of the time.


I think you're wrong about Elayne. ... She's already lost one brother and a woman she considered a sister. Especially given their recent interactions, I doubt Elayne would continue to shun her only remaining sibling.
I didn't especially mean that she'd shun her relationship, just that she and he seem to both agree that although they love each other, they may not actually like one another very much. And if he's got another Crown/ Military Order to deal with, I think it makes it an easy out for both of them. After all, he can't force her to do the 'right thing.'

People keep talking about Moiraine as queen or steward, but I can't see it. The woman is the prototype for what all Blues should be, her place is out in the world, not sitting on a throne. I don't imagine it'd happen, but I'd be HIGHLY amused if Galad was steward of Cairhien, given he is a Damodred. I imagine his dealings with the Game of Houses could be potentially hilarious.

Two things: first, what would Moiraine do 'out in the world'? I'm not one who especially favours either scenario, but I simply don't see any other cause having as much importance to her now that the Last Battle has taken place. I don't see her going back to the White Tower under Cadsuane, so maybe she and Thom wander the Kingdoms visiting their almost-grand-babies. Tour Andor, then Saldaea, then Malkier? I'm at a loss with these two...

Why would the Illian people care to reinstate Stepaneos over a ruler who just came out with a victory in the Last Battle? Just cause he was king *two* heads of states ago? That made me laugh. :D

Re: Cadsuane and the future of the White Tower
Far more interesting is her relationship with the Black Tower. It's very hard to imagine this broken shell of Logain being able to go head to head with Cadsuane in any meaningful way. The only thing there is that from various PoVs, we've seen that many of the light-side Asha'man that now control the Black Tower have strong conviction that the Black Tower is theirs and that it stands by itself. Imagine most of them are like that and have no inclination to give an inch to the White Tower.
I'd agree that they remain completely seperate entities, for now at least. Huge change like that wouldn't happen immediately.

Another interesting point of contention is Elayne and the Black Tower. Logain and crew bailed her out of a tight spot, but for all that, they are more or less a military organization on Andoran soil that don't feel one iota beholden to her. That strikes me as a kettle waiting to boil over in an ugly way.
Well, (and I have put this idea forward before), there is a matchy-matchy Tower on Tower grounds right now - or at least the footing for one. Both Towers on the same soil? I like it!

I've seen people float this idea numerous times, and I just don't think it'll be. Caemlyn was sacked to be sure. But it wasn't nuked off the face of the planet. The destuction was done by fire and trollocs, not the One Power. Caemlyn was a city of stone. There was mention that after the city was theirs the Fades kept the trollocs from doing further damage to the city. That implies there was still enough of the city to further damage. ... but I think Elayne would stay in the city as a statement if nothing else.
Agree. Completely. Elayne is Andoran and will never allow Caemlyn not to be rebuilt. She'll be haggling with the Ogier before the week is out. She's a big one for recognizing the power in optics, and she'll never allow the opportunity for Caemlyn to rise from the ashes of the Last Battle, more beautiful than ever to go to waste.

I see the whitecloaks merging into the White/Black tower actually. As its "military arm" to hunt down and capture rogue channelers all equiped with foxhead medallions.

It certainly fits with RJ's ironic future.
Dude. What? The Military organization based on the premise that all channelers are Darkfriends, joining with them, and then pursuing rogue channelers? What's a rogue channeler?

Is not sure if joking...

Ishara
01-16-2013, 09:59 PM
ToM actually. Ch. A Teaching Chamber. p.699. Faile suggests it.

Ah. Thanks! :)

Dom
01-16-2013, 11:19 PM
That clarifies a lot. Still though, I wouldn't be too surprised to see political alliances in the future with Ghealdan, at least if Alliandre is half as smart as she thinks she is. She'll work to cultivate and maintain her relationship with Perrin and Faile.

The friendship between these nations is likely indeed to remain this generation, and could be solidified beyond it, unless there's an unexpected falling out.


So, this is where I start to object to anyone BUT Tam.

Tam would be the obvious choice, above the mayors, as Perrin's stand-in.

After all, Perrin made him a Lord (was that within his power to do?)

Unclear. Elayne made Birgitte a noble by bestowing her some of her Trakand domains and having this registered in Caemlyn (which suggests it requires some kind of royal sanction). Did she acted knowing she'd make this official when she became Queen, that we don't really know for sure.

Usually it's strictly a royal (or ducal) prerogative, but RJ sometimes strayed for the real historical examples. Hard to say if Brandon respected the Andoran rules set by RJ doing this or didn't even check.

I tend to think the latter, because unlike Elayne, Perrin owns a single domain to which is attached one title. He's not a Great House that own several. The whole scene was atrociously silly and was a completely useless plot device to pass leadership of Perrin's armies to Tam (useless because Tam has been commander of Perrin's armies since Malden, and the others like Arganda were far from objecting to that - they agreed enthusistically, Tam's reputation from his day as second in command of the Illianer Companions preceded him.).

In my eyes, he's the perfect choice as Lord of the Two Rivers, with the Mayoral position still in play to run it administratively.

The Lord of the Two Rivers is Perrin, Tam would only be a steward. .

Perrin can't pass his title to anyone not of his line, normally. That would be Elayne's prerogative. It would most definitely need her approval.

It makes little sense for Perrin to renounce his title/lands in Andor.


Which made perfect sense when they weren't ruling Saldaea.

Faile pretty much knew unless Tenobia changed a lot, it would happen one day, if not for herself than to her heir. Everyone "knew" Tenobia didn't intend to marry and the crown would pass to House Bashere.

Elayne's terms have ensured the land can't be detached from Andor. It doesn't matter that Faile is Queen. Theorically it could have without the PotD, as Faile could have gambled and claimed the land for Saldaea (which would have lead to war). Not that Saldaea would have been likely to do that. Under the Peace it's not very relevant anymore.

What Faile agreed to is that in case herself or her heir won the Broken Crown, she would have to pass her title of Lady of the TR to a child who would renounce his rights to the crown (thus most likely to a younger child).

That would happen at Faile's death, not when she took the crown.

Faile knows better than most the fragility of a Royal line, with the death of her brother.

Between the destruction of Shadowspawn, the Peace of the Dragon and the Traveling/Healing combination, it will be far less fragile presumably. But yeah, nobles and rulers tend to have many kids.

There are advantages to the situation. Faile very likely inherited Tenobia's Kazadi lands, and there's their Andoran domains (TR). She won't have to divide Bashere domains to settle many children.

And she still has a brother (younger). He's another Faile could decide to make her steward in Andor, eventually (But he's a child now, if he survived the LB).

And the first-born would have to take precedence with regards to their own Royal line, would it not?

If it's anything like historical examples, yes.

Weiramon
01-17-2013, 02:44 AM
Burn my soul, the choice of that handsome Cadsuane Sedai as Amyrlyn is most wise. Who better to bring that Ablar fellow to heel. Why, it's not as though she was one of the Sisters that captured him to be gentled.

GonzoTheGreat
01-17-2013, 05:57 AM
I tend to think the latter, because unlike Elayne, Perrin owns a single domain to which is attached one title. He's not a Great House that own several. The whole scene was atrociously silly and was a completely useless plot device to pass leadership of Perrin's armies to Tam (useless because Tam has been commander of Perrin's armies since Malden, and the others like Arganda were far from objecting to that - they agreed enthusistically, Tam's reputation from his day as second in command of the Illianer Companions preceded him.).
But Perrin's army was not the only entity involved. There were also other armies on the field, many of them allies. And those armies expected that some kind of nobleman (or equivalent; an AS works as well) would be at the head of an army. See the matter of "Lord Mat" for an example of this.
Knighting Tam on the field conveniently solved this problem for the time being, and as all the records were burned together with Caemlyn, Elayne would even have a neat legal fiction that she'd been planning this all along, and Perrin merely let himself be prompted by the changed circumstances to raise Tam a bit early.

In theory I suspect that Elayne could make an issue of it. More likely she would simply state in public "Perrin, if you want to raise someone to the nobility, consult with me first if there is time. In this case there wasn't time to do so, and I fully approve of your decision."

The Lord of the Two Rivers is Perrin, Tam would only be a steward.
Actually, the Lord of the Two Rivers is the Dragon Reborn, and Perrin is his Steward.

Morgase is the Queen-Mother, similarly, Tam could be the Lord-Father. I'm wondering whether he'll get caught by Selande, who regrets that she let his son scare her off.

yks 6nnetu hing
01-17-2013, 07:05 AM
What about the White Tower? While the Black Tower is decidedly upon Andoran soil, White Tower controls the land around itself and there's a huge swath of somewhat unclaimed land (the whole of Caralain Grass, prime farming land, I gather) I understand that up until now, the White Tower has been more of a city-state with economic influence on the nearest surrounding lands, so will that change? How will they determine where the borders lie? Or, will they go for the simple option and say that everything North of Andor/Cairhien and South of the Borderlands, between the Spine of the World and the Mountains of Mist is White Tower territory? That would actually make the biggest land territory on Randland under one ruler/government.

GonzoTheGreat
01-17-2013, 07:14 AM
How about the Land of the Madmen?
At present, that's just a bunch of villages all at war with each other. But now that the Taint is gone, larger political entities could form there. Will the Aiel forcibly prevent that?

Davian93
01-17-2013, 08:40 AM
What about the White Tower? While the Black Tower is decidedly upon Andoran soil, White Tower controls the land around itself and there's a huge swath of somewhat unclaimed land (the whole of Caralain Grass, prime farming land, I gather) I understand that up until now, the White Tower has been more of a city-state with economic influence on the nearest surrounding lands, so will that change? How will they determine where the borders lie? Or, will they go for the simple option and say that everything North of Andor/Cairhien and South of the Borderlands, between the Spine of the World and the Mountains of Mist is White Tower territory? That would actually make the biggest land territory on Randland under one ruler/government.


If I were to bet, I would bet that the WT has never renounced its stated claims to the land it controlled prior to Hawkwing so they would just say "Hey, that's our land and we're reasserting our historical rights to it."

Terez
01-17-2013, 08:40 AM
How about the Land of the Madmen?
At present, that's just a bunch of villages all at war with each other. But now that the Taint is gone, larger political entities could form there.
Not until the taint-affected men die off. Until then, it might serve as a penal colony for recalcitrant muppets.

Davian93
01-17-2013, 08:40 AM
How about the Land of the Madmen?
At present, that's just a bunch of villages all at war with each other. But now that the Taint is gone, larger political entities could form there. Will the Aiel forcibly prevent that?

As they're not signatories, the Aiel have no standing to do so...of course, you already know that.

Ishara
01-17-2013, 11:22 AM
What about the White Tower? While the Black Tower is decidedly upon Andoran soil, White Tower controls the land around itself and there's a huge swath of somewhat unclaimed land (the whole of Caralain Grass, prime farming land, I gather) I understand that up until now, the White Tower has been more of a city-state with economic influence on the nearest surrounding lands, so will that change? How will they determine where the borders lie? Or, will they go for the simple option and say that everything North of Andor/Cairhien and South of the Borderlands, between the Spine of the World and the Mountains of Mist is White Tower territory? That would actually make the biggest land territory on Randland under one ruler/government.

Huh. I was going to say that on the map, Tar Valon is confined to the City-state, but the map of Tar Valon itself makes it clear that the villages on land outside of the island count as well, and the borders of Andor and Cairhien are no nowhere close to the island itself. Cadsuane could arguably make a land grab, but again, the huge loss to Aes Sedai numbers in concert with the need to consolidate channelers across nations and cultures will likely be her first priorities.

I still like the idea of the Black Tower sharing the grounds with the White Tower. It's not like there isn't plenty of room, after all...

GonzoTheGreat
01-17-2013, 11:34 AM
I still like the idea of the Black Tower sharing the grounds with the White Tower. It's not like there isn't plenty of room, after all...
Maybe the Sea Folk are also willing to make an offer to Logain. Of course, they'll have to stop any AS who ever dealt with them from talking to him, but that shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Ishara, do you have some clever scheme for making Logain return to the White Tower to reside there under the authority of Cadsuane?

Dom
01-17-2013, 12:03 PM
But Perrin's army was not the only entity involved.

By "Perrin's armies", I mean everyone who swore to follow him. They were all under Tam's military command already, and the main ones gladly accepted him. Reread the KOD scene when this happened. Learning it's the Tam al'Thor, blademaster and famed second-in-command of the Companions during the Aiel War Perrin had named his First Captain and commander in-chief silenced all their objections. Most of the objections came from Arganda, who reacted to Tam's name with "if he is your First Captain, I have no objections". That scene also made clear Tam isn't this wimp with the Perrin sort of reservations or lack of confidence about leading men, in battle or otherwise, nor is he impressed by nobles. The whole point was that Tam didn't need to be a lord to be strong or a natural leader, a long standing image and motifs for the characters Brandon's scene destroyed as easy as that.

There were also other armies on the field, many of them allies.

Tam was explicitely made their commander in KOD when Perrin named him his First Captain, the others were under Elayne's authority, or her allies. It's to Elayne Perrin needed to say "I leave my First Captain in charge and would wish for him to succeed me in the TR should I not return from this" - the soldiers already followed Tam and did so gladly. They didn't need the whole "I name Tam a Lord publicly so you'll follow him and so he can't refuse to lead" farce.

More likely she would simply state in public "Perrin, if you want to raise someone to the nobility, consult with me first if there is time. In this case there wasn't time to do so, and I fully approve of your decision."

And officialize Tam's raising to nobility as if he was the Lion Throne's idea all along, yes.


Actually, the Lord of the Two Rivers is the Dragon Reborn, and Perrin is his Steward.

Rand was given the nominal authority over the TR as Dragon Reborn. Elayne made his steward an Andoran Lord over the TR, with his line to succeed him in the position.

Tam could be the Lord-Father.

In Illian maybe, not in Andor. Rand isn't royalty in Andor.

Davian93
01-17-2013, 12:38 PM
I cant recall if you already mentioned this in the errors thread but there is a spot in aMoL where Arganda wonders "where did Tam get his militar experience" which made zero sense to me...based on those previous KOD scenes.

fionwe1987
01-17-2013, 12:55 PM
I cant recall if you already mentioned this in the errors thread but there is a spot in aMoL where Arganda wonders "where did Tam get his militar experience" which made zero sense to me...based on those previous KOD scenes.
That's because Brandon resorts to "tell not show" with WoT, many times. He needs people to wonder these things so the reader can get that character X is doing something great.

Dom
01-17-2013, 12:56 PM
I cant recall if you already mentioned this in the errors thread but there is a spot in aMoL where Arganda wonders "where did Tam get his militar experience" which made zero sense to me...based on those previous KOD scenes.

Nope, I probably haven't reached that spot yet in my reread. I've reported only the "Tam becomes a new Perrin" moment, so feel free to add the other one.

I guess what bugs me the most is that I've been annoyed at time with Perrin/Lan's sort of reluctance to lead, but I always loved Perrin's attitude toward the trappings. I like well enough his final "okay, so you want a symbol to rally around and I'll accept that" but liked even more his "I'm myself, and I'll never be that sort of Lord".

I get the point Brandon meant this to be a kind of payback "Tam you've been one of those lording me and now I turn the tables on you", but it didn't fit the characters and reeked of "let's make Tam important and honored" fan service, and it's sort of annoying that the deep touches of American spirit in the TR are disserved by this development. Perrin is Perrin, Tam is Tam. It's annoying that nobility has suddenly been turned into a meaningful "reward", especially for an important TR character like Tam.

If Brandon really wanted to bring up the issue (which wasn't his point, alas), a much more fitting scene would have had Perrin wanting to make Tam a lord, and Tam answering "No! You're their lord, whether you're here or elsewhere won't change that. I've never needed a title to lead, they follow me well enough as your First Captain, for their lord, and you're their lord, and Elayne is their Queen. I'll do my duty, but you want make me a lord, not now, not ever."

Shoving a title on Tam smacked of fan service, or even Brandon service, much like Brandon making Tam the recipient of his sword.

Davian93
01-17-2013, 01:26 PM
Something along those lines or along the lines of "Lord? Son, I work for a living. I didnt let Mattin Stepaneos make me a Lord and I'll be damned if I let you either" Replacing "damned" with a suitable WoT word for such sentiment.

Dom
01-17-2013, 01:58 PM
Something along those lines or along the lines of "Lord? Son, I work for a living. I didnt let Mattin Stepaneos make me a Lord and I'll be damned if I let you either" Replacing "damned" with a suitable WoT word for such sentiment.

Exactly.

The "Two Rivers" spirit got lost/diluted too much.

Ishara
01-17-2013, 04:07 PM
Maybe the Sea Folk are also willing to make an offer to Logain. Of course, they'll have to stop any AS who ever dealt with them from talking to him, but that shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Ishara, do you have some clever scheme for making Logain return to the White Tower to reside there under the authority of Cadsuane?

And steering us back on track...LOL.

I should be really clear that I don't think that the Black Tower should be under the Authority of the White. Just that they should take advantage of the second palace on Tower Grounds to consolidate Randland channelers in one place. As for a plan? I think it would need to start with a formal recognition from the Hall that the Black Tower exists at all, that male channelers are no longer outlawed, and that they have their own authority structure in which the White Tower is not involved.

Ivhon
01-17-2013, 04:11 PM
And steering us back on track...LOL.

I should be really clear that I don't think that the Black Tower should be under the Authority of the White. Just that they should take advantage of the second palace on Tower Grounds to consolidate Randland channelers in one place. As for a plan? I think it would need to start with a formal recognition from the Hall that the Black Tower exists at all, that male channelers are no longer outlawed, and that they have their own authority structure in which the White Tower is not involved.

I kindof like the visual of a black palace next to the white tower and a white palace next to the black tower. Goes well with the sign.

MountaineerWV
01-17-2013, 04:42 PM
I like the idea of the White and Black Tower being separate. I think it will create competition between the two.

I would equate Tar Valon to Venice in 14th/15th century. Very powerful through trade, economics, knowledge/learning, and politics. It would be interesting to see the heights the White Tower and Black Tower would achieve if the Black Tower is able to build a rival city state.

I don't believe they would be adversarial entities, because there are a lot of connections between the two of them. Namely bonding and that the greatest creations in the one power requires both men and women...but some competition never hurts. Would the US have landed on the moon without the Soviets launching Sputnik?

Great thread by the way. Now that the DO's influence is gone, humanity will no longer be on the retreat - which is what caused so much of Randland to go to fallow. Plus following all great wars is a baby boom! There is going to be a population explosion over the next 10-15 years.

With such huge swathes of land, I could see small villages remembering images of self-grandeur from the days prior to Artur Hawkwing trying to reestablish themselves.

Birgitte
01-17-2013, 06:03 PM
And steering us back on track...LOL.

I should be really clear that I don't think that the Black Tower should be under the Authority of the White. Just that they should take advantage of the second palace on Tower Grounds to consolidate Randland channelers in one place. As for a plan? I think it would need to start with a formal recognition from the Hall that the Black Tower exists at all, that male channelers are no longer outlawed, and that they have their own authority structure in which the White Tower is not involved.

I agree. And, frankly, with all the Aes Sedai and Asha'man who are boning, it'd be ridiculous to pretend they are completely separate. While Traveling means it wouldn't be completely out of the question for each of those Aes Sedai and Asha'man to have their own rooms in their own separate, leagues-apart towers, it is just much more logical for the Asha'man to take advantage of the brand-spanking new mansion Elaida was building herself and turn it into the new Black Tower. Plus, Ihvon's right about the visual appeal.

GonzoTheGreat
01-18-2013, 04:35 AM
Then again, the White Tower definitely does not have maternity wards, baby rooms, and daycare centres, whereas the Black Tower does. So it would be more sensible to simply let all the married AS go to the Black Tower, rather than having to change the entire structure of the White one against the objections of the not (yet) married AS who don't want all these newfangled changes, thank you very much.

David Selig
01-18-2013, 09:23 AM
I tend to think the latter, because unlike Elayne, Perrin owns a single domain to which is attached one title. He's not a Great House that own several. The whole scene was atrociously silly and was a completely useless plot device to pass leadership of Perrin's armies to Tam (useless because Tam has been commander of Perrin's armies since Malden, and the others like Arganda were far from objecting to that - they agreed enthusistically, Tam's reputation from his day as second in command of the Illianer Companions preceded him.).

Title or not, being the father of the Dragon Reborn (and ruler of half the Westlands) should've been enough to keep those who care about heritage and bloodlines in line. Not to mention him being the grandfather of the current supreme commander's children.

If this wasn't not enough for the potential nay-sayers, Tam given a stewardship over 4 villages at the back end of nowhere wouldn't impress them either.

Ishara
01-18-2013, 11:53 AM
Then again, the White Tower definitely does not have maternity wards, baby rooms, and daycare centres, whereas the Black Tower does. So it would be more sensible to simply let all the married AS go to the Black Tower, rather than having to change the entire structure of the White one against the objections of the not (yet) married AS who don't want all these newfangled changes, thank you very much.

This part of the discussion came about because having the Black Tower on Andoran soil is going to be a problem for everyone. There's no reason they can't turn an empty palace into something that works for everyone.

Davian93
01-18-2013, 12:52 PM
This part of the discussion came about because having the Black Tower on Andoran soil is going to be a problem for everyone. There's no reason they can't turn an empty palace into something that works for everyone.

Having a peaceful Black Tower (which is no longer strictly a military organization) on Andoran soil is quite a boon/bit of prestige for Elayne.

And probably a major boost to her local economy.

fionwe1987
01-18-2013, 01:57 PM
Having a peaceful Black Tower (which is no longer strictly a military organization) on Andoran soil is quite a boon/bit of prestige for Elayne.

And probably a major boost to her local economy.

Based on her thoughts in ToM, she'll even try to take over, which she can happily do since its inside her borders, and the BT wasn't even signatory to the Dragon's Peace. I think the BT will be better off in the White Tower's grounds.

To me, the absence of them in the Peace indicates that Rand expects them to be folded into the Tower. We see that he had anyone who might rise to leadership sign the thing, but none of the Asha'man.

Ishara
01-18-2013, 03:30 PM
To be fair, he knew that none of his Asha'man had the authority to sign. And he wasn't willing to go to what was clearly going to be a trap to get the one person he knew could have the authority (Logain). I'm not sure if that speaks to his intentions re: their future, which he seemed content to let them figure out on their own.

I also think that it is in the Black Tower's best interests to get the hell out of Andor. Precisely because of Elayne. And also, the current buildings hold a lot of negative history. Best to leave it and start afresh.

GonzoTheGreat
01-19-2013, 03:12 AM
Well, Rand Asha'man might have had sufficicent standing to sign. Just as Rand Sedai could have signed for the White Tower, come to that.

Enigma
01-19-2013, 02:06 PM
Well technically Rand was the head of the Black Tower, at least in theory if not entirely in practice. I can't remember if he signed his own peace, but normally for a contract to be binding all the parties have to sign it and that would include Rand.

With the advent of Gateways the Black Tower could relocated anywhere it wanted, even some of the deserted lands. This would have the advantage of letting them build a city around them and having their own city state like Tar Valon while being only a gateway away from markets, food supplies and the centres of influence.

Still there is something to be said for being located centrally close to a large population centre. Peopel who can't travel will have an easier time reaching them but the down side is they have to fend off Elayne and subsequent rulers who naturally enought will want to treat them as part of the nation and subject to its crown. What ruler worth a crown would not try and control a resource like the Black Tower?

Rand al'Fain
01-19-2013, 02:23 PM
Well technically Rand was the head of the Black Tower, at least in theory if not entirely in practice. I can't remember if he signed his own peace, but normally for a contract to be binding all the parties have to sign it and that would include Rand.

With the advent of Gateways the Black Tower could relocated anywhere it wanted, even some of the deserted lands. This would have the advantage of letting them build a city around them and having their own city state like Tar Valon while being only a gateway away from markets, food supplies and the centres of influence.

Still there is something to be said for being located centrally close to a large population centre. Peopel who can't travel will have an easier time reaching them but the down side is they have to fend off Elayne and subsequent rulers who naturally enought will want to treat them as part of the nation and subject to its crown. What ruler worth a crown would not try and control a resource like the Black Tower?Seanchan? I think their moratorium on male channelers may still stand.:(

Master Ablar
01-19-2013, 06:53 PM
Well technically Rand was the head of the Black Tower, at least in theory if not entirely in practice. I can't remember if he signed his own peace, but normally for a contract to be binding all the parties have to sign it and that would include Rand.

With the advent of Gateways the Black Tower could relocated anywhere it wanted, even some of the deserted lands. This would have the advantage of letting them build a city around them and having their own city state like Tar Valon while being only a gateway away from markets, food supplies and the centres of influence.

Still there is something to be said for being located centrally close to a large population centre. Peopel who can't travel will have an easier time reaching them but the down side is they have to fend off Elayne and subsequent rulers who naturally enought will want to treat them as part of the nation and subject to its crown. What ruler worth a crown would not try and control a resource like the Black Tower?

Elaybe admitted herself that she really has no power to do anything about the BT. Instead of antagonizing them, she should pursue cooperation. There's huge potential as long as she doesn't piss Logain off.

Enigma
01-19-2013, 07:15 PM
Elayne can't force them but I doubt she will stop trying to meddle and tie strings to the Black Tower. Elayne may be a suicidal risk taker but she is also a long term planner when it comes to the future of Andor. She already risked stepping on Egwene and the White Tower's toes with her deal with the Kin I can't see her not trying to get some control over the Black Tower because firstly they are on Andoran soil and secondly they are a resourse that I think she has already had a pov where she thinks someone will pick them up when Rand was gone. It doesn't seem to occur to her that the Asha'man might have some idea of what the want for themselves. She may be suffering from the typical AS attitude that any group of men will need a woman to guide them or even better control them.

Even with the dragon peace and Elayne having cannon I doubt anyone will trust the Seanchan too much for the time being and there are the Sharan's to consider as well. They never signed the peace treaty and there will be some who wonder if they may not try a second attack even without Demandred to egg them on. Given that Shara is such a secretive place it will be easy for peopel to think the worse of them. As far as Elayne is concerned the world is still a dangerous place with hostile empires to be faced. And if nothing else the Asha'man have shown the world that they are very good at fighting.

I would imagine that rebuilding the capital will be the first priority and if I were here I would be tempted to give a crown contract to the Black Tower to help with the rebuilding. A few men strong in Earth could really help make the buildings stronger etc. And it gets the Asha'man used to working with or even better for the crown.

She may also try and control who goes in and out to the Black Tower but that would be a lot harder with gateways. Still she can make life awkard for them as she treatened Taim some time ago. Consider how she dealt with the Band of the Red Hand - "But Logain think how much easier it would be for everyone if you ageed to serve the crown, people would respect you and not be nearly as afraid of you or your men and I am promice I won't be too demanding, just a few tasks for Andor here and there..."

Actually I would love to read that scene. She tried it on with Taim and clearly he wanted to tell her where to go but he had to play it cool to keep Rand on side and possibly not to rock the boat with his darkfriend recruiting drive. Logain has no such worries.

Master Ablar
01-19-2013, 07:51 PM
Elayne can't force them but I doubt she will stop trying to meddle and tie strings to the Black Tower. Elayne may be a suicidal risk taker but she is also a long term planner when it comes to the future of Andor. She already risked stepping on Egwene and the White Tower's toes with her deal with the Kin I can't see her not trying to get some control over the Black Tower because firstly they are on Andoran soil and secondly they are a resourse that I think she has already had a pov where she thinks someone will pick them up when Rand was gone. It doesn't seem to occur to her that the Asha'man might have some idea of what the want for themselves. She may be suffering from the typical AS attitude that any group of men will need a woman to guide them or even better control them.


I kind of think she should just grant them the land to be honest. The land itself is worth very little, it's the Asha'man who are valuable. Officially granting them the land would better relations between the two, whereas doing nothing won't solve anything. The Asha'man won't leave unless they want to, and she can do little to hurt them. On the other hand I doubt the Asha'man want to be know as "those guys who squat on your land and don't give a damn". But they seem to be sufficiently attached to the BT, that I imagine they would risk that. So instead Elayne should just avoid the entire issue, give them the land and in exchange for some kind help from them.


And if nothing else the Asha'man have shown the world that they are very good at fighting.


Yeah, I sort of hope they won't be selling that particular talent of theirs though. Afterall they should be aiming for improving their reputation, not worsening it.


I would imagine that rebuilding the capital will be the first priority and if I were here I would be tempted to give a crown contract to the Black Tower to help with the rebuilding. A few men strong in Earth could really help make the buildings stronger etc. And it gets the Asha'man used to working with or even better for the crown.


Totally agree, this is the sort of thing Elayne should think of when considering the advantages of working with the BT.


She may also try and control who goes in and out to the Black Tower but that would be a lot harder with gateways. Still she can make life awkard for them as she treatened Taim some time ago.


Yeah, the problem is, the more BT grows, and it inevatibly will, the more irrelevant her blockade will become. She'll gain nothing, but lose a valuable partner.


Consider how she dealt with the Band of the Red Hand - "But Logain think how much easier it would be for everyone if you ageed to serve the crown, people would respect you and not be nearly as afraid of you or your men and I am promice I won't be too demanding, just a few tasks for Andor here and there..."

Actually I would love to read that scene. She tried it on with Taim and clearly he wanted to tell her where to go but he had to play it cool to keep Rand on side and possibly not to rock the boat with his darkfriend recruiting drive. Logain has no such worries.

That scene would be hillarious. Hopefully Elayne would be smart enough not to try to pull that on Logain though. Especially since he pulled her ass out of the fire in Cairhien.

Enigma
01-19-2013, 08:12 PM
I'm with you Master Ablar, the smart thing would be for Elayne to work with Logain. However for her to do that would be for her to recognise Logain or who ever came after him as her equal. She has already had to jump through several legal hoops with regard to Perrin and the Two Rivers, allowing another rival so close to her capital could be dangerous.

With that in mind Elayne will probably want the Black Tower to work for her at least at first. I'm sure the Asha'man will explain to her that they are not some discarded tool Rand left lying around just waiting for someone to pick up, they can think for themselves thank you very much. Given time I am sure they will work something out based on mutual benefit, even if who has the upper hand does seasaw from time to time.


Why would I think this likely? After the wholesale slaughter of the last battle I doubt if anyone will want a fight for at least a year or two. It might take that long just to bury the dead not to mention all the rebuilding that's needed.

Secondly Elayne is the consumate diplomat. She was noted as trying to keep the peace in the earlier books between Egwene & Nynaeve and second time around she worked out a good deal with the Sea Folk, not to mention the Kin. Elayne is the WoT equivilent of Eisenhower. He was commander of the western allies not because he was a military genius but because he kept the various armies and the leaders of those armies all pointed in the same direction. Elayne may try to be high handed but once she realises that the BT is not going going to roll over she will come up with a deal.

Lastly hopefully Nynaeve will be able to do something for any effects the taint had on Logain. How much of his darker personality were based on the failed turning attempt and how much was due to the taint might have some bearing on things as well.

GonzoTheGreat
01-20-2013, 05:44 AM
Elaybe admitted herself that she really has no power to do anything about the BT. Instead of antagonizing them, she should pursue cooperation. There's huge potential as long as she doesn't piss Logain off.
Laman admitted to himself that he really had no power to do anything about the Aiel. Instead of antagonizing them, he should pursue cooperation. There's a huge potential as long as he doesn't piss Janduin off.

Of course, a big difference is that one of them has the Damodred ancestry, whereas the other ... oh! Cairhien may have a problem, there. :eek:

Ishara
01-21-2013, 11:17 AM
But for Elayne to foster the Black Tower in Andor could potentially set her up to be at real odds with the White Tower, to which she still has purported allegiance.

She already mucked up Egwene's consolidation plans when she made that deal with the Kin. For her to foster 2 of the groups of channelers outside of the Tower...well, she then becomes competition, doesn't she?

GonzoTheGreat
01-21-2013, 11:22 AM
She already mucked up Egwene's consolidation plans when she made that deal with the Kin. For her to foster 2 of the groups of channelers outside of the Tower...well, she then becomes competition, doesn't she?
So she does, so she does.

Of course, Cadsuane won't be around all that long anymore, after which Elayne can become Amyrlin, and the problem will be solved again.

Dom
01-21-2013, 11:30 AM
well, she then becomes competition, doesn't she?

She's already looking for trouble with the WT now that her friend Egwene is no longer there to keep a leash on the Hall (Egwene sent her an angry letter on the Kin matter, agreeing they had to push that aside until TG was won - the WT has not quite given up on undoing the Kin deal). And if Cadsuane becomes Amyrlin, she won't find an ally there.

I don't think the BT will remain in Andor. The whole place is tainted, it's still a village and walls with foundations for a tower that have largely been destroyed in the fight. Remaining there would mean placing themselves under the laws of a notoriously ambitious Aes Sedai Queen. Whatever the Asha'man choose to do, it's unlikely to see them return to this place 2 leagues from Caemlyn that will be many years before it's rebuilt.

If they choose not to simply align themselves with Tar Valon after no doubt long negotiations, it would make more sense for them to claim a new location outside any nation. They no longer have Rand to ensure their independence.

frenchie
01-21-2013, 11:34 AM
The Black Hills sounds like a nice place for the Black Tower to resettle. No monarch claims the area, that I can remember.

Terez
01-21-2013, 11:44 AM
The Black Hills sounds like a nice place for the Black Tower to resettle. No monarch claims the area, that I can remember.
It's contagious, ew.

frenchie
01-21-2013, 11:57 AM
What did I say wrong this time?

Dom
01-21-2013, 11:59 AM
The Black Hills sounds like a nice place for the Black Tower to resettle. No monarch claims the area, that I can remember.

I thought the same. As far as "unclaimed land" goes, it's one that's not uninhabited either, and it's well situated.

Mind you, I rather stand with the "deal with the WT" faction. It'd be much better and simpler for everyone if the Asha'man/Aes Sedai did that.

frenchie
01-21-2013, 12:02 PM
Well yes, the logical thing to do is work with the White Tower, and if Cadsuane is Amyrlin, well, she has a history of favorable dealings with male channelers working in her favor.

Terez
01-21-2013, 12:18 PM
What did I say wrong this time?
The word 'monarch' is used 6 times in all of the RJ books combined (and the plural form not at all). It's used (along with the plural) 45 in Brandon's three books. And it drives me nuts...

Davian93
01-21-2013, 04:11 PM
The word 'monarch' is used 6 times in all of the RJ books combined (and the plural form not at all). It's used (along with the plural) 45 in Brandon's three books. And it drives me nuts...

A veritable tempest of usage there.

Enigma
01-21-2013, 05:10 PM
Given how the Asha'man can use gateways it would make sence for them to set up far enought north of Baerlon to be out of Andor along side the river Arivelle. From the coloured map on the hardbook editions the river goes all the way up to from Saldaea to Illian. Granted we don't know if its navigable all the way but if there is only a few proble areas a few men strong in Earth could fix that. Tar Valon made a lot of its money on the trade between north and south but then again with the advent of gateways river trade might not be as imporant. Still even in the AoL there were aircraft and other vehicles so you can't use gateways for everything.

On the other hand I could see the Asha'man and especially Logain taking the position that the BT is where it is and no one be it the White Tower or the Queen will force them to move.

Martine But Not Jenata
01-21-2013, 06:26 PM
From the coloured map on the hardbook editions the river goes all the way up to from Saldaea to Illian. Granted we don't know if its navigable all the way

It is; that was Domon's route in TEotW. The site of what was Shadar Logoth could also be a fitting place for them! The ground has even been leveled already.

Davian93
01-21-2013, 06:47 PM
It is; that was Domon's route in TEotW. The site of what was Shadar Logoth could also be a fitting place for them! The ground has even been leveled already.

More than leveled...it was basically turned into a giant lake given that a huge crater was created and its right on a river:


TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 35 - With the Choedan Kal
Cadsuane let the thing that had been a ter'angreal drop to the ground. It could no longer be called a statue of a woman. The face was as wisely serene as ever, but the figure was broken in two and lumpy like bubbled wax where one side had melted, including the arm that had held the crystal sphere now lying in shattered fragments around the ruined thing. The male figure was whole, and already tucked away in her saddlebags. Callandor was secured, too. It was best not to leave temptation on the open hilltop. Where Shadar Logoth had been there was a now a huge opening in the forest, perfectly round and so wide that even with the sun low on the horizon she could see the far side sloping down into the earth.

Martine But Not Jenata
01-21-2013, 07:20 PM
it was basically turned into a giant lake given that a huge crater was created and its right on a river

It's not a lake just yet. If the Asha'man move fast, they might still manage to build their own version of Avalon :)


“What we saw, Mother, was a roughly circular hole in the ground,” she said, nodding for emphasis at nearly every other word. She seemed to choose those words carefully, as if to make sure she was absolutely clear to everyone. “It may have been a precise circle, originally, shaped like half of a ball, but the sides have collapsed in some places. The hole is approximately three miles across and perhaps a mile and a half deep.” Someone gasped loudly, and Akarrin frowned as though whoever it was had tried to interrupt. She went on without pausing, however. “We could not be entirely certain of the depth. The bottom is covered with water and ice. We believe it may become a lake, eventually. In any event, we were able to ascertain our exact location without too much difficulty, and we are prepared to say that the hole is located where the city called Shadar Logoth once stood.” CoT, Chapter 19 - Surprises

Davian93
01-22-2013, 08:03 AM
It wasnt a lake because it was the dead of winter and everything was frozen. The spring melt likely turned it into one.

Mort
01-22-2013, 08:55 AM
It wasnt a lake because it was the dead of winter and everything was frozen. The spring melt likely turned it into one.

A lake without yummy fishies? :) What good does it do? Or do they come with the river mayhaps?

GonzoTheGreat
01-22-2013, 09:07 AM
After a while, it could even be a lake with a lake monster. Wouldn't that be nice?

Daekyras
01-22-2013, 09:08 AM
A lake without yummy fishies? :)

Better than those horrible orcsiss and hobbitsiss...

Rand al'Fain
01-22-2013, 01:39 PM
After a while, it could even be a lake with a lake monster. Wouldn't that be nice?

Nessie of Randland?

Khoram
01-22-2013, 03:31 PM
Nessie of Randland?

Bela reincarnated! :eek:

Master Ablar
01-22-2013, 03:45 PM
But for Elayne to foster the Black Tower in Andor could potentially set her up to be at real odds with the White Tower, to which she still has purported allegiance.

She already mucked up Egwene's consolidation plans when she made that deal with the Kin. For her to foster 2 of the groups of channelers outside of the Tower...well, she then becomes competition, doesn't she?

The BT will become competition anyway. But yeah Elayne claiming authority over the BT probably won't sit well with the WT. All the more reason for her not to attempt it.


I don't think the BT will remain in Andor. The whole place is tainted, it's still a village and walls with foundations for a tower that have largely been destroyed in the fight. Remaining there would mean placing themselves under the laws of a notoriously ambitious Aes Sedai Queen. Whatever the Asha'man choose to do, it's unlikely to see them return to this place 2 leagues from Caemlyn that will be many years before it's rebuilt.


The reason why I see the Asha'man remain where they are is this:


TITLE: A Memory of Light
CHAPTER: Prologue
"The Black Tower is a dream," he said, meeting her eyes. "A shelter for men who can channel, a place of our own, where men need not fear, or run, or be hated. I will not surrender that to Taim. I will not."


To abandon the BT because of Taim and what he did would be to admit defeat. If the BT has dark spot in it's history, well, so what? What organisation, what nation, doesn't have dark moments in it's history? The WT certainly has had a few. That alone is not a reason to abandon the place that witnessed the rebirth of male channellers. The Asha'man survived the taint. They can survive the memory of what Taim did.

As for the Queen, her laws have hold over the BT in name only. In practice she knows very well that she has no power there. And attempting to claim authority would not only antagonize the BT, it would also make matters even worse with the WT. The best she can do is grant them the land, same as she did with the Sea Folk, and in exchange strike a bargain in order to secure their help in rebuilding her country. Since she wouldn't be claiming authority over them, the WT can hardly complain.


On the other hand I could see the Asha'man and especially Logain taking the position that the BT is where it is and no one be it the White Tower or the Queen will force them to move.

That too. If nothing else the Asha'man can just be stubborn and refuse to move.

fionwe1987
01-22-2013, 04:34 PM
As for the Queen, her laws have hold over the BT in name only. In practice she knows very well that she has no power there.
This was true in WH. As of aMoL, things have changed. By the Dragon's Peace, she has a sound legal basis for enforcing her laws in the Black Tower. If they refuse her, she can seek redressal with the Aiel. How is that likely to go down?

And look at it from Elayne's perspective: the last time she let the BT free because enforcing her laws would be too difficult, it became a snakepit filled with Dreadlords, just 4 leagues from her capital.

Sure, Dreadlords are a thing of the past now, as is the 13x13 trick. But that doesn't change the fact that the Black Tower has no legal system of its own, no longstanding traditions for dealing with the innumerable conflicts that are bound to arise between channelers. And any conflict among Asha'man is going to mean absolute disaster for Andor, and likely beyond.

Whether the BT remains a completely independent organization or not, they're soon going to come under pressure to come up with laws, and a sound system of leadership. And given the number of Aes Sedai who're more or less bound to be involved in this, I don't quite see how the BT will manage to remain completely independent.

confused at birth
01-22-2013, 05:08 PM
By the Dragon's Peace, she has a sound legal basis for enforcing her laws in the Black Tower. If they refuse her, she can seek redressal with the Aiel. How is that likely to go down?


Well based on past events the Aiel will never be stupid enough to test them.

The only time Ashaman and Aiel have fought the Aiel involved ended looking like they had been thrown in a wood chipper and there were a lot less men at the black tower then.

It likely only takes a year or so to train an Ashaman to be more deadly than a hundred Aiel and about 20 years for the Aiel to replace those hundred that got blown up so if they are smart they will stay out of it

Master Ablar
01-22-2013, 05:11 PM
This was true in WH. As of aMoL, things have changed. By the Dragon's Peace, she has a sound legal basis for enforcing her laws in the Black Tower. If they refuse her, she can seek redressal with the Aiel. How is that likely to go down?


That's true, however calling in the Aiel, would undoubtebly mark the end for any possible friendly relations between herself and the Asha'man, same as trying to claim authority over them. Which would make it a pretty stupid move, considering how useful good relations with the Asha'man could prove to be.


And look at it from Elayne's perspective: the last time she let the BT free because enforcing her laws would be too difficult, it became a snakepit filled with Dreadlords, just 4 leagues from her capital.


It's not like she could have done anything about it, and Logain will no doubt point that out if she brings it up. And apart from the 13*13 and anything related to the shadow, I don't believe the BT were really breaking Andoran law.


Sure, Dreadlords are a thing of the past now, as is the 13x13 trick. But that doesn't change the fact that the Black Tower has no legal system of its own, no longstanding traditions for dealing with the innumerable conflicts that are bound to arise between channelers. And any conflict among Asha'man is going to mean absolute disaster for Andor, and likely beyond.


Well, under Taim, when an Asha'man was thinking of deserting, he ended up with his head on a tree. While Logain probably won't go with anything quite as extreme, I doubt he's going to allow Asha'man to go on a rampage thoughout Andor.


Whether the BT remains a completely independent organization or not, they're soon going to come under pressure to come up with laws, and a sound system of leadership. And given the number of Aes Sedai who're more or less bound to be involved in this, I don't quite see how the BT will manage to remain completely independent.

Well everything has a beginning right? Why wouldn't the BT be capable of coming up with it's own system of laws? Aes Sedai may have some input, they may give some advice, but ultimately I don't see any reason why the BT can't take care of this independently.

Master Ablar
01-22-2013, 05:13 PM
Well based on past events the Aiel will never be stupid enough to test them.

The only time Ashaman and Aiel have fought the Aiel involved ended looking like they had been thrown in a wood chipper and there were a lot less men at the black tower then.

It likely only takes a year or so to train an Ashaman to be more deadly than a hundred Aiel and about 20 years for the Aiel to replace those hundred the got blown up so if they are smart they will stay out of it

Maybe so, but this would be a bad move all around. For the BT it gives them a terrible reputation. And for the Aiel, if they refuse to help Andor, it sets a terrible precedent. If the Asha'man refused to follow the Dragon's Peace, and the Aiel won't do anything about, why should anyone else not follow suit?

confused at birth
01-22-2013, 05:24 PM
If the Asha'man refused to follow the Dragon's Peace, and the Aiel won't do anything about, why should anyone else not follow suit?

Well since I dont believe any of the Asha'man never signed the dragons peace who cares? While I dont want them to end up some tyrannical superpower I have no problem with them showing up at Elaynes next meeting and saying they are beyond her powers and if she doesnt like it she knows exactly where they will shove the first fireball:D

I actually always hoped after the tower was cleansed they would move to either Whitebidge or claim the cleansing site at shadar logoth and blast a hole from the lake to the river and turn it into a harbour and make the black tower balance the white on the two main rivers/trade routes on the mainland

David Selig
01-22-2013, 05:51 PM
Well based on past events the Aiel will never be stupid enough to test them.

The only time Ashaman and Aiel have fought the Aiel involved ended looking like they had been thrown in a wood chipper and there were a lot less men at the black tower then.

It likely only takes a year or so to train an Ashaman to be more deadly than a hundred Aiel and about 20 years for the Aiel to replace those hundred the got blown up so if they are smart they will stay out of it
Given that right now there must be at least 6-7 times more channelling Wise Ones than Asha'man and the WO have learnt a lot from the Aes Sedai since Dumai's Wells, the Aiel would crush the Asha'man pretty easily.

Anyway, if the BT want to be fully independent, they should move out of Andor. It's not like there's a shortage of unclaimed land in the Westlands. Otherwise they need to strike some deal with Elayne.

Enigma
01-22-2013, 06:29 PM
Given that right now there must be at least 6-7 times more channelling Wise Ones than Asha'man and the WO have learnt a lot from the Aes Sedai since Dumai's Wells, the Aiel would crush the Asha'man pretty easily.

How many of those channeling wise ones survived the battle at SG? Even with casualties the Asha'man should know that they can't fight everyone. At the same time if anyone pushes them too far the Black Tower might be vulnerable but how do you fight a group who can look like everyone else once they take off their black coats and can move to another continent in a few seconds.

Its a sort of stalemate that would prevent anyone having too much of an advantage. The Asha'man know that if anyone declares war on them they can scatter and strike back at who ever attacked them. They also know that if they want to recurit openly they need the cooperation of the nations.

Anyway, if the BT want to be fully independent, they should move out of Andor. It's not like there's a shortage of unclaimed land in the Westlands. Otherwise they need to strike some deal with Elayne.

It would make sense to move but they may feel some attatchment to the current location and it might have some political capital, being chosen by the Dragon Reborn, savour of the universe etc

confused at birth
01-22-2013, 06:50 PM
Given that right now there must be at least 6-7 times more channelling Wise Ones than Asha'man and the WO have learnt a lot from the Aes Sedai since Dumai's Wells, the Aiel would crush the Asha'man pretty easily.

There were Wise Ones at dumai's wells and they got the hell out of there as soon as the black tower showed and the fighting turned against them yes they were from the weakest and most spineless clan but the others considered them their equals.
Even if they have learned a lot recently, as a combat unit I dont really rank the Wise Ones to highly against the Asha'man.
After 3000 years of non involvment they learned to fight to protect themselves from the shadow I would expect them to go back to their more subtle background ways of operating unless there Seanchan are involved or war breaks out on a massive scale.


but how do you fight a group who can look like everyone else once they take off their black coats and can move to another continent in a few seconds.


How do you fight a group that can drop the full force of a volcano into your throneroom if you push them?

you do have a good point about the coats because they arent a traditional army in uniform and even if someone invents a camera to help guards I.D. them it wouldnt help as they can just change there faces or use gateways to sneak past your security.

All the non Seanchan nations should just copy Hawkwings plan and move their capitols into abandoned stedding. This would protect them from the Seanchan, both towers and stop channelers from taking the throne and having the nation stagnate under a single ruler for to long.

Enigma
01-22-2013, 07:18 PM
All the non Seanchan nations should just copy Hawkwings plan and move their capitols into abandoned stedding. This would protect them from the Seanchan, both towers and stop channelers from taking the throne and having the nation stagnate under a single ruler for to long.

How big are stedding? A group of channelers can't use the power there but whats to stop them using the OP to steel some dragons and use gateways to transport them to the edge of the stedding and start to blast away? If they are outside the stedding they can use the OP to defend any attack against the dragons.

Now if Steddings are so big that they exceed the range of a dragon its a different matter, at least until someone in all those schools Rand was nice enought to demand comes up with a better dragon with longer range.

Not to mention having your capital in a place where gateways can't move you or your people or goods or messages etc about may not be a good idea if everyone else is using gateways.

confused at birth
01-22-2013, 07:23 PM
How big are stedding? A group of channelers can't use the power there but whats to stop them using the OP to steel some dragons and use gateways to transport them to the edge of the stedding and start to blast away? If they are outside the stedding they can use the OP to defend any attack against the dragons.

Now if Steddings are so big that they exceed the range of a dragon its a different matter, at least until someone in all those schools Rand was nice enought to demand comes up with a better dragon with longer range.

Not to mention having your capital in a place where gateways can't move you or your people or goods or messages etc about may not be a good idea if everyone else is using gateways.

While these are all good points it still doesnt come close to the chance of never having Elayne as queen:D

eht slat meit
01-22-2013, 07:33 PM
Given that Steddings are nothing more than jumped-up groves of trees with some protection from the OP, I'd say they're ripe for the roasting by the first contingent of Seanchan damane to come along. Encircle it with fire, then watch everything inside burn to the ground.

Ishara
01-22-2013, 09:53 PM
To abandon the BT because of Taim and what he did would be to admit defeat. If the BT has dark spot in it's history, well, so what? What organisation, what nation, doesn't have dark moments in it's history? The WT certainly has had a few. That alone is not a reason to abandon the place that witnessed the rebirth of male channellers. The Asha'man survived the taint. They can survive the memory of what Taim did.
The Black Tower is an entity - not a place (right now). There's no reason for these men to have any allegiance or loyalty or affection to a random place they landed in and then tore up. They have the freedom and political goodwill to go anywhere in Randland right now. I'm simply not seeing what the appeal would be in returning to the place where their comrades were robbed of their very souls. There's nothing holding them to the place now - it's not even fit for habitation if we're believing that any sort of battle occurred there for supremacy before showing up at the Last Battle. Better to start fresh somewhere new without the political hassle of deciding whether to be beholden to Andor or not.

Well based on past events the Aiel will never be stupid enough to test them.
The parties and their leaders are simply not stupid enough to ever let it get to that point. While the point has been made that the Asha'man didn't sign the Dragon's Peace, I suspect that once Logain decides where to place his people, he'll want in on the treaty. If the White Tower is getting rid of the Oaths (which I'm not convinced would happen until after retirement into the Kin, btw, then why should the Black Tower have to take any on? In which case, they'll need something to help the other nations see them as a helping hand as opposed to a rogue para-military organization. Adhering to the Peace would be the easiest way to do that.

GonzoTheGreat
01-23-2013, 05:47 AM
This was true in WH. As of aMoL, things have changed. By the Dragon's Peace, she has a sound legal basis for enforcing her laws in the Black Tower. If they refuse her, she can seek redressal with the Aiel. How is that likely to go down?
Can she really do that?

Could Fortuona demand that the Aiel help her enforce her claims to the throne in Seanchan proper?
Could Roedran demand that the Aiel help him expand his rule beyond the bits of Murandy that he now control?
I think that in both cases, the answer is no.

Elayne can't call upon this treaty to deal with the BT for very a simple legal reason: if it applies, then she has no standing, if it doesn't apply, then she can not invoke it.

If the BT is to be considered a non-Andoran entity, then, seeing as how their boundaries were already fixed when the treaty was signed, the BT is a separate entity over which Elayne can't claim jurisdiction.
If, on the other hand, the BT is considered part of Andor, then it is entirely Elayne's problem, to solve, ignore or get swamped by as she chooses.

Dom
01-23-2013, 03:01 PM
Can she really do that?

A better question would be: why would they care to try and see if she can? The BT location is nothing - it's a bunch of stone walls and a few collapsed buildings, now located near a destroyed city that will be years in the rebuilding, even with Ogier and channelers to help. The Asha'man have very little reason to even want to hold the location, unless they seek a deal with Andor. But these men aren't from the WT culture to necessarily want to forsake their national ties to serve a foreign nation, or tie themselves to it.

It sure is a possible scenario that Elayne is straight on a path to break up with the WT that having her friend Egwene as Amyrlin and the LB to see to slowed down and delayed but if matters go on in the same directions with an Amyrlin not so friendly anymore, Elayne might forsake her Aes Sedai status and offer the Asha'man a deal in the vein of the Kin's. The WT is no longer in a position to oppose her as they would have in the past, manipulating the other nations to move against her. Elayne could easily make herself a solid rival to the Amyrlin Seat.

In other scenarios, the WT will work very hard to convince the Asha'man not to align themselves with any nation but to serve all neutrally in a loose alliance of all channelers, agreeing to rules, collaborating for training etc.

The days of a large and hegemonic organization acting as a political entity above the nations may be waning too (over long years/decades, not within months...). The Peace of the Dragon seriously undermines the traditional role the WT held, or in the post TW eras at least tried to. The new Amyrlin can always dream of making herself a new Mabriam en Sheered at the center of a new Covenant of Nations - Rand went and freed all the nations from that.

Elayne's deal with the kinswomen, the WO and Windfinders coming into the open the door for several nations to also convince small groups of channelers to enter their services - buy the services of the SF Windfinders to begin with, offer Asha'man not wishing to join the new BT deals, and many AS have not returned to TV after the WT conflict etc. Aiel male channelers aren't very likely to want to join Wetlanders at a male organization, nor the WO (nor the Windfinders) too keen to see them do that - both groups will seek to retain its own male channelers. Egwene had set the WT on a path to great changes, an organization that will be more similar to the Aes Sedai Guild of the AOL, binding the channelers to a looser alliance than the WT of the Third Age. With her dead, the AS might well balk and try to return to their old ways trying to rebuild their loss political influence and trap themselves in an ivory tower, but the Peace of the Dragon risks trivializing their importance in the long term if they do that.

The new Amyrlin would be wise to continue on the path taken by Egwene toward a global alliance, and to take the last step and welcome back the male channelers among them, or else others will and the Tower will continue to decline, become a place for aloof women not wishing to really use their abilities to serve people, arrogant and wanting to be treated like Queens, not wanting to work with men, just as the other organizations flourish and gain power.

But from the little clues we have, there are many women like Pevara who will push hard to integrate the Asha'man in the WT and convince the men to accept. Cadsuane herself seemed since the Cleansing to struggle with the fact sooner or later this would happen. It won't be easy for either side, but it seems inescapable. If the WT doesn't do it, the WO and Windfinders and eventually (with the male SF channelers developing new areas of expertise.. what the Windfinders do rests on mastery of two female flows, the male SF won't have their natural abilities with Air and Water) and the BT will become
mixed gender organizations anyway, first for the BT with former Aes Sedai choosing to remain with them, and over time they'll simply recruit and form their own women.

The Three Oaths won't survive long, at least the use of the Binder to enforce them. The WT will soon find itself the only organization cutting the lifespan of its members by half. That's non viable - when this spread they'll find it harder and harder to recruit women who now have other options letting them live twice as long. Cadsuane herself will soon be faced personally with the choice: she could either die any minute, or she can abandon the Binder and actually have the sisters believe in and respect their Oaths without it, and double the lifespan and usefulness of Aes Sedai (and wouldn't they moan when they realize instead of choosing a strong and authoritarian Amyrlin for a short transitional period, they picked a woman who might hold the Seat for as long as it takes to reform a WT that currently doesn't meet her standards of what Aes Sedai should be like...)

fionwe1987
01-23-2013, 03:28 PM
Can she really do that?

Depends on how she puts it. If she says a bunch of channelers from all over came and squatted on her land, violated her laws, and didn't let her have access, she can definitely get the Aiel to help.

If she claims they're already a part of Andor, and are like a rebel House, then its more doubtful the Aiel will bother to help.

Either way, neither the BT or the WT are long going to remain exclusively male or female. I don't see sisters who bonded Asha'man Warders giving up the Tower, and given the huge advantages to this kind of bonding, how exactly do you stop Aes Sedai and Asha'man from doing this left and right? Plus, with the fact that Asha'man warders can't be forced to obey anyway, the Aes Sedai can't quite lump them with normal Warders and forget about it.

What's the point of the Oaths if an Aes Sedai can't use the OP to kill someone, but can ask her Warder to? If the Oaths remain, someone is going to ask for the Asha'man Warders to take them to, which they would quite naturally not want to. On the flip side, if Asha'man Warders don't take the Oaths, how long before someone points out the illogic of forcing a small subset of the channeling population of the world to take them? How long before Accepted decide to return to the WO or the WF so they can double their lifespan?

And with the Oath Rod gone, there goes yet another impediment to men joining the AS. It'll happen soon enough.

Dom
01-23-2013, 04:36 PM
Well, Brandon just eliminated the "no more Binder" - as far as he knows, and the "Asha'man merge with the AS" option - the notes were clear on that - during #torchat.

fionwe1987
01-23-2013, 05:01 PM
Well, Brandon just eliminated the "no more Binder" - as far as he knows, and the "Asha'man merge with the AS" option - the notes were clear on that - during #torchat.
Yup. Disappointing.

ETA: Brandon says RJ was clear Asha'man won't become male AS. But he also said that a united male-female AS is something that will happen in the future.

Davian93
01-23-2013, 08:23 PM
Yup. Disappointing.

ETA: Brandon says RJ was clear Asha'man won't become male AS. But he also said that a united male-female AS is something that will happen in the future.

The whole "Guardians balance the Servants" foretelling pretty much implied that anyway. They will remain "Guardians" so to speak regardless of any working arrangements iwth the WT.

fionwe1987
01-23-2013, 08:38 PM
The whole "Guardians balance the Servants" foretelling pretty much implied that anyway. They will remain "Guardians" so to speak regardless of any working arrangements iwth the WT.

That's hardly the only way to interpret that prophesy. Without men, it can be argued there is no balance among the Servants (Egwene's final thoughts only reinforce this). The welcoming of the Guardians among them could bring that balance. At least, that's how I saw it.

As things stand, the Servants severly outnumber the Guardians, or soon will once their Novices are made into Aes Sedai by Cadsuane. And once they spread their recruitment outside of Murandy and Altara, the numbers should skyrocket even higher. While the Asha'man can actively recruit as well, there are definitely going to be fewer sparkers to find, and male channelers in general, for a time, till the effects of 3000 years of culling is reversed by many Aes Sedai and Asha'man marrying and giving birth to kids.

Davian93
01-23-2013, 08:50 PM
Referring to them as "Guardians" and "Servants" is what I was taking from it...they wont be male AS because they aren't Servants, they're Guardians. That was always my interpretation of that line and it looks like it was accurate.

djrice24
01-24-2013, 10:36 PM
I am 90% that Andor comes out of the last battle as the most powerful state in Randland.

It started as, arguably, the most powerful state. Sure Camelyn is destroyed, and large parts of the countryside are likely destroyed by the roving Trolloc hordes. However, the nation still has significant cities like Whitebridge, Four Kings and Baerlorn. Plus, Elayne has incorporated Cairhein into Andor, making her empire by far the largest (larger than the Seanchan holdings?). And possibly the most populous. Plus plus, she is Aes Sedai so that can't hurt.

alleluia_cone
01-25-2013, 12:16 AM
How quickly it's forgotten that the Seanchan have the greatest general in the entire world leading their armies.

confused at birth
01-25-2013, 12:30 AM
How quickly it's forgotten that the Seanchan have the greatest general in the entire world leading their armies.

Mats Greatness will soon become irelevant on the mainland outside of getting tons of recognition for his part in the lights victory earning him free drinks at every inn in the world

His skill as a general is now known to all the major powers and as soon as the rest of the world learns how cool he is Mats use in war will be banned by international agreement as an amendment to the dragons peace:D

Ishara
01-27-2013, 01:05 PM
I am 90% that Andor comes out of the last battle as the most powerful state in Randland.

It started as, arguably, the most powerful state. Sure Camelyn is destroyed, and large parts of the countryside are likely destroyed by the roving Trolloc hordes. However, the nation still has significant cities like Whitebridge, Four Kings and Baerlorn. Plus, Elayne has incorporated Cairhein into Andor, making her empire by far the largest (larger than the Seanchan holdings?). And possibly the most populous. Plus plus, she is Aes Sedai so that can't hurt.

Andor was certainly the most peaceful and prosperous nation before the Last Battle. Because Morgase worked so assiduously to ensure that Daes Dae'mar wasn't a thing in Andor, they didn't have the political machinations that occurred elsewhere, like in Cairhien or Tear. And Andor had many resources, and we know that their currency was valued above all others (excepting possibly, Tar Valon's, but only in certain places). So yes, Elayne has excellent structure to rely on in her rebuilding efforts.

Cairhien though, is still a separate entity. Under her rule, yes, but still its own nation. It also has the significant issues of the political manouevering that we've seen occur to the detriment of the people. She'll obviously try to put a stop to that, but it's embedded in their culture, so it could take a lifetime, or more.

All that to say, yes, Elayne certainly leaves the Last Battle as arguably the strongest leader, but I suspect the Seanchan have more land mass, if not population.