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View Full Version : Dissapointed - Spoilers


enak101
01-16-2013, 06:59 PM
It was an amazing book all around, I especially loved Perrins scenes as well as the big picture Rand/DO stuff.

I was disappointed with the Padan Fain death scene though, wtf even happened. He was immune to the fog and stabbed him or something? Padan Fain was built up to be this essence of epicness just going around killing people and then he just gets destroyed like that in a sentence.

Just a bit I was expecting more from but I wasn't expecting the awesomeness of lava flows from gateways and heavy use of the dragons etc.

The ending was a little short as well but other than that a good ending.

Davian93
01-16-2013, 07:06 PM
Mat was immune due to his previous possession of the Dagger and stabbed him through the heart with his own dagger basically.

Terez
01-16-2013, 07:07 PM
It was an amazing book all around, I especially loved Perrins scenes as well as the big picture Rand/DO stuff.

I was disappointed with the Padan Fain death scene though, wtf even happened. He was immune to the fog and stabbed him or something? Padan Fain was built up to be this essence of epicness just going around killing people and then he just gets destroyed like that in a sentence.
He was built up to be a danger that needed to be destroyed. There were no prophecies about him, no real suggestion he would do anything important at the Last Battle. Mat's immunity was foreshadowed in TGH before he was even fully Healed, and Mat's Old Blood and his luck both came out in response to the evil of Shadar Logoth.

The Unreasoner
01-16-2013, 07:13 PM
I was going to make a snarky comment about yet another TLander who thought his/her reactions so important that they merited their own thread, but then I saw this:
He was immune to the fog and stabbed him or something
Somehow, it perfectly encapsulates (to me, at least) why there is so much dissatisfaction with the book. It feels incomplete.

Rand al'Fain
01-16-2013, 07:18 PM
Isn't it more like he's immune to that evil now, which manifests itself as the fog?

eht slat meit
01-16-2013, 07:33 PM
Isn't it more like he's immune to that evil now, which manifests itself as the fog?

He's immune to the manifestation of Shaisam's evil power, which is born of Shadar Logoth. While no less evil than the DO, it's a force that beats counterpoint to that evil, and for some odd reason "getting over" that evil poison gave Mat something like an immunity to it, even if it did impale him and knock him off his horse.

While powerful in his own right, Shaisam's not immortal, is certainly vulnerable to the same evil within Shadar Logoth that caused it to turn upon and destroy itself, and his power lies greatly in his ability to corrupt and poison the things around him.

Not the ending I would have liked, but fitting. A pathetic end for a pathetic corruption of a creature.

enak101
01-16-2013, 09:29 PM
Sorry if there was a thread better suited already, yeah I sort of knew about Mat's immunity since he had that dagger and all of that.

I just thought the scene was a bit short and not epic enough haha, considering how cool Padan Fain was becoming.

enak101
01-16-2013, 09:32 PM
He was built up to be a danger that needed to be destroyed. There were no prophecies about him, no real suggestion he would do anything important at the Last Battle. Mat's immunity was foreshadowed in TGH before he was even fully Healed, and Mat's Old Blood and his luck both came out in response to the evil of Shadar Logoth.

That is true, but when he was killing trollocs instantly (fades as well??) just by being in their presence, maybe I was expecting too much but Fain did impact the story quite a bit was the character of pure evil lol. Just like a page describing him attacking and failing wasn't what I was thinking.

What do you mean that it encapsulates how the book is incomplete? I was reading through it pretty fast and couldn't remember any more of the specific details but I don't think much happened lol.

Brita
01-16-2013, 09:32 PM
evil poison gave Mat something like an immunity to it, even if it did impale him and knock him off his horse.


I got the definite impression that Mat faked falling off his horse (and death) to strike at Fain, by the sly look he gave Perrin.

Davian93
01-17-2013, 07:15 AM
I got the definite impression that Mat faked falling off his horse (and death) to strike at Fain, by the sly look he gave Perrin.

Yes, that was what I figured too.

Toss the dice
01-17-2013, 01:01 PM
The part that had me the most confused about the Mat and Fain scene is why Mat decided to fall to the ground and fake death.

Obviously, the plan was to fake death, have Fain come investigate the "dead" section of Mashadar/himself, and then surprise kill him. And that's what happened.

However, what I don't get is how Mat came up with that plan in the first place. How did he know Fain would investigate? How did he know any part of Mashadar would sense that something was wrong? How did Mat himself know that he had "deadened" Mashadar and that Fain would be able to sense it and come running? I mean, from Mat's POV the ONLY possible way he could have known anything is if when he was speared he was able to sense certain things about Mashadar, due to his past ties with the dagger...and then through that sense would know SOME part of Mashadar would come investigate the problem and hoped it would be Fain.

And if Mat DIDN'T know or sense these things, then in my eyes it was a horribly bad plan that somehow, miraculously, ended up successful.

The one other question I have that is semi-related is Perrin's POV concerning Mat falling down and giving him "a look." For the life of me I can't think of a single "look" that would make Perrin think Mat has everything in hand. At BEST, if Mat were to give me a smile or knowing grin, my first thought is that he is quickly dying and putting on a last brave face. I honestly can't think of any kind of look that would be an obvious "I'm fine and I got this, dude." And I would at least take a few seconds to investigate or get confirmation, regardless.

Nope. Perrin just rides off assuming Mat has everything in hand. That must have been some look.

Ivhon
01-17-2013, 01:28 PM
The part that had me the most confused about the Mat and Fain scene is why Mat decided to fall to the ground and fake death.

Obviously, the plan was to fake death, have Fain come investigate the "dead" section of Mashadar/himself, and then surprise kill him. And that's what happened.

However, what I don't get is how Mat came up with that plan in the first place. How did he know Fain would investigate? How did he know any part of Mashadar would sense that something was wrong? How did Mat himself know that he had "deadened" Mashadar and that Fain would be able to sense it and come running? I mean, from Mat's POV the ONLY possible way he could have known anything is if when he was speared he was able to sense certain things about Mashadar, due to his past ties with the dagger...and then through that sense would know SOME part of Mashadar would come investigate the problem and hoped it would be Fain.

And if Mat DIDN'T know or sense these things, then in my eyes it was a horribly bad plan that somehow, miraculously, ended up successful.

The one other question I have that is semi-related is Perrin's POV concerning Mat falling down and giving him "a look." For the life of me I can't think of a single "look" that would make Perrin think Mat has everything in hand. At BEST, if Mat were to give me a smile or knowing grin, my first thought is that he is quickly dying and putting on a last brave face. I honestly can't think of any kind of look that would be an obvious "I'm fine and I got this, dude." And I would at least take a few seconds to investigate or get confirmation, regardless.

Nope. Perrin just rides off assuming Mat has everything in hand. That must have been some look.

wink wink, nudge nudge...say n'more say n'more

Davian93
01-17-2013, 01:30 PM
I figured that Rand, Mat and Perrin had probably pulled about 1.2 million pranks in their lives and Mat was probably the lead on most of them. He probably gave Perrin the same look he'd give him right before a prank and Perrin instantly realized that Mat was faking and moved off to make it work.

Toss the dice
01-17-2013, 01:37 PM
I figured that Rand, Mat and Perrin had probably pulled about 1.2 million pranks in their lives and Mat was probably the lead on most of them. He probably gave Perrin the same look he'd give him right before a prank and Perrin instantly realized that Mat was faking and moved off to make it work.

I know, and what you say makes sense and is obviously right. It's just...if I was Perrin I would EXPECT Mat's dying facial expression to be a sly grin. That's just who he is and how you expect him to go out.

Maybe my problem with it isn't so much what happened as it was the execution and writing of it. I suppose even the mere addition of one more sentence (about the look and Perrin's POV seeing it) would have made it much more clear/believable to the reader. (or just me if I'm alone in this)

Terez
01-17-2013, 02:38 PM
Yeah, the delivery could have been better. If Mashadar had taken out one or two people that we know—even better, a few channelers—the gravity of the situation and the need for Mat might have been a little more obvious to the casual observer.

kabkaba
01-17-2013, 02:47 PM
Is it not the healing and protection that he received in White Tower responsible for his immunity? I don't think it is the possession of the dagger in the past that makes him immune.

Terez
01-17-2013, 03:23 PM
He went through three rounds of major Healing, starting with Moiraine and her angreal in Caemlyn, then in Fal Dara after Fain stole the dagger, and then in Tar Valon to separate him from the dagger completely. From after the second Healing:

"There is one," Moiraine said, "who can retrieve the dagger without being harmed by it. One whom we have shielded and buffered against that taint as much as anyone can be. Mat Cauthon."

GonzoTheGreat
01-18-2013, 03:14 AM
How did he know Fain would investigate?
It's not as if there were all that many routes Fain could follow. He was aiming for a specific cave opening, and had to from a small number (maybe just one) approach routes. Mat could simply wait until Fain passed by. He might have had to move a couple of feet further while launching his attack, but that's about all.

Basically the same method that Fain himself used: he knew where his enemy was going to be, so he did not have to go search for him.