PDA

View Full Version : Brandon's references to the RJ books (spoilers)


Terez
01-17-2013, 10:58 PM
I figured I'd make a new thread for these, so they won't be buried in the middle of yks' thread (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=7743). Copied from that thread:

Also, in your review (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=7666) (non-spoiler) you mentioned that some scenes were copies of earlier scenes and a lot of forshadowing from books 1-3 was fulfilled.

I saw some of the more obvious ones but was wondering if you could point me to some of the less obvious ones?! As ever, I bow to your superior knowledge...
I haven't made a list of them. Here's an example of one of the less obvious ones:

"Just win this battle! I have bet a skin of oosquai upon our success."

Mat snorted. The only thing more discomforting than a stoic Aiel was a grinning one. Bet? On the outcome of this battle? What kind of bet was that? If they lost, nobody would live long enough to collect . . .

Mat frowned. Actually, that was a pretty good bet to be making. "Who did you find to take that bet?" Mat called. "Urien?" But the man was already too far away to hear.
Edorion drew a deep breath, puffing his pink cheeks, and let it out slowly. "I suppose if I made it out in one piece, I can make it back in. My Lord Dragon, forgive me if I offend, but would you care to wager, say, a thousand gold crowns, that you can really come in seven days?"

Rand stared at him. The man was as bad as Mat. "I don't have a hundred crowns silver, much less a thousand in —"

Sulin broke in. "He has it, Tairen," she said firmly. "He will meet your wager, if you make it ten thousand by weight."

Edorion laughed. "Done, Aiel. And worth every copper if I lose. Come to think, I'll not live to collect if I win. Come, Meresin, Daricain." It sounded as if he were summoning dogs to heel. "We ride."
This was just before the Battle of Cairhien. Edorion volunteered to ride back to the city and let them know help was on the way. He ended up fighting with Mat, and became an officer in the Band.

Another one:

"If so," Lan said, "we stand atop the high ground, and we fight until we die, Ghealdanin. You surrender when you're dead. Many a man has been given less."...

...Despite Lan's initial offensive, Demandred was the better swordsman. Lan knew this by the same sense that told him when to strike, when to parry, when to step and when to withdraw.
"You are a cool one, Aes Sedai," Lan said flatly.

"As cool as I must be," she told him. Diryk's scream rang in her ears. Iselle's face dwindled below her. As in the test for the shawl, all her calm was outward show, but she clung to it tightly. Let go for an instant, and she would be on her knees weeping. Howling with grief. "It seems Ryne was wrong as well as a Darkfriend. You were better than he."

Lan shook his head slightly. "He was better. But he thought I was finished, with only one arm. He never understood. You surrender after you're dead."

Moiraine nodded. Surrender after you are dead. Yes.
I will add more later; these two just came to mind as being among the most interesting/obscure references.

Weiramon
01-18-2013, 02:26 AM
Pshaw. You may as well claim the Lord Dragon credited that Malkieri layabout with teaching him how to stand, as though on watch. Like any commoner or pageboy, whether it be one or two hundred and fifty-six.

kasper11
01-18-2013, 10:39 AM
Not so obscure, but Egwene's death is a clear reference back to TEOTW chapter Tellings of the Wheel. Moiraine tells the story of Manetheren and how Eldrene, after her husband/warder was killed, destroyed her enemies with the power but killed herself in the process.

fionwe1987
01-18-2013, 10:47 AM
Not so obscure, but Egwene's death is a clear reference back to TEOTW chapter Tellings of the Wheel. Moiraine tells the story of Manetheren and how Eldrene, after her husband/warder was killed, destroyed her enemies with the power but killed herself in the process.

Ummm... Wow!

Daekyras
01-18-2013, 10:53 AM
Ummm... Wow!

This.

David Selig
01-18-2013, 11:26 AM
Elayne rallying the broken Andoran troops by riding into the midst of the Trollocs was a clear reference to this bit in TDR:

Seven hundred years ago, at the Battle of Cuallin Dhen, the Andormen were being routed when Queen Modrellein rode, alone and unarmed, carrying the Lion banner into the midst of the Tairen army. The Andormen rallied and attacked once more, to save her, and won the battle.

Brita
01-18-2013, 11:53 AM
I love this stuff! I enjoy this far more than finding every little mistake and focusing on the disappointments.

Terez
01-18-2013, 12:01 PM
*sigh*

Another reference was Polov Heights, generally referred to as 'the Heights'.

"On the heights, the paths are paved with daggers."

Much of the Last Battle was focused on the Heights. It's where Mat made his original stand from, though they lost the Heights fairly early on to Demandred. It's where everyone had to go to challenge Demandred, and it's where Egwene had her fight with Taim.

GonzoTheGreat
01-18-2013, 12:09 PM
On the other hand, a bit earlier on, Aviendha paved a path on the field with a dagger. So the Seanchan weren't quite complete with their saying.

thomwoosley
01-18-2013, 12:32 PM
Faile was introduced to us as a Hunter for the Horn.

At the end, she was tasked with delivering the horn to Mat.

Terez
01-18-2013, 12:34 PM
Ummm... Wow!
This.
Be nice. ;) Obvious ones are fine, too; this thread is for all of them.

Davian93
01-18-2013, 12:46 PM
Not so obscure, but Egwene's death is a clear reference back to TEOTW chapter Tellings of the Wheel. Moiraine tells the story of Manetheren and how Eldrene, after her husband/warder was killed, destroyed her enemies with the power but killed herself in the process.

Yeah, that's been touched on a few times in other threads...specifically that Mat (who spouted off Old Tongue in tEotW implying he was either Aemon or a high-ranking member of Manetheren) fighting a seemingly hopeless last stand by a river and with Egwene paralleling Eldrene's last moments.

Terez
01-18-2013, 12:47 PM
How many Theorylanders does it take to tell a noob they've said something obvious?

Davian93
01-18-2013, 12:49 PM
How many Theorylanders does it take to tell a noob they've said something obvious?

7.

Which I believe is in the Theoryland FAQ

Ivhon
01-18-2013, 12:50 PM
How many Theorylanders does it take to tell a noob they've said something obvious?

Three. One to tell him and two to....errr...nowait

Absurd.

1001?

GonzoTheGreat
01-18-2013, 12:54 PM
But was Egwene also plagued by an Amyrlin who was raised from the Red?

Davian93
01-18-2013, 12:56 PM
But was Egwene also plagued by an Amyrlin who was raised from the Red?

Nope, pretty sure she wasn't.

Dom
01-18-2013, 01:17 PM
Be nice. ;) Obvious ones are fine, too; this thread is for all of them.

Looks like I'll have plenty of friends to play "spot the repeating patterns" game from now on. Yeah! :D

I'll throw in a few obvious ones:

- The scene when Perrin wakes up in Mayene is a direct allusion to the scene in which he woke up in Berelain's tent.

- The childish argument between Egwene and Rand at Merrilor, interrupted by Moiraine, alludes to Egwene's and Rand's first argument (their first scene together) argument in the series. Moiraine's "show" to stop all arguments at Merrilor is a variant of the "Moiraine stops all arguments about herself in Emond's Field by telling them about things they've forgotten".

- Faile's Horn arc is an inversion/remix of "The Great Hunt": she starts where the Fade/DF wanted to bring the Horn, and it's Mat she needs to reach. Her party getting nearly captured near the Town of corrupted Aiel is a variant of her Malden arc.

- Bela's death is a variant of her flight from the Two Rivers.

- Lanfear's "I'm fond of you" scene is incorporates elements from a scene between Berelain and Perrin.

- Perrin's hunt for Faile using TAR and seing her represented as a Falcon is a variant of the finale of their arc in TDR.

- Min ending up a Seanchan servant between them and Egwene is a variant of the finale of her arc from TGH. Terez noticed even the color of her dress is a match.

- Talmanes taking a Tha'kandar wound to save the dragons, managing to get out of an assaulted location, getting carried to safety, meeting Egwene and ending up healed by Nynaeve and Egwene lending her strength for healing is rife with allusions to create a variant of the Winternight events in TEOTW.

- Mat climbing walls (the Ebou Dar palace) to try to rescue a woman from assassins, then being guided by a helper (bodyguard) is build around his TDR final arc (climbing the roofs to get into the Stone, meeting Juilin who shows his a secret path (used only by the High Lords) to get to the cells.

- The whole thing in Ebou Dar about "Mat leading "an old friend/an old enemy" to a secluded Garden (in this case Rand following the color swirls to find Tuon) is a variant on elements of ending of TEOTW where Mat is followed by Balthamel to the EOTW. There are full of subtleties there, such as Tuon's real location being moved around and being changed if anyone finds her once, allusions to the Green Man/Eye stuff. That episode, and the blooming of nature at SG at the end turns Rand into a variant of the Green Man in TEOTW.

There are tons, and the fun part is that it's not something only Brandon did, RJ has created such variants/patterns through the whole series.

Terez
01-18-2013, 01:23 PM
The whole thing in Ebou Dar about "Mat leading "an old friend/an old enemy" to a secluded Garden (in this case Rand following the color swirls to find Tuon) is a variant on elements of ending of TEOTW where Mat is followed by Balthamel to the EOTW.
Fain also referred to Mat as an old friend.

fionwe1987
01-18-2013, 02:24 PM
Some more obvious ones:

Olver rode as he’d been taught, down low, guiding with his knees. And
Bela ran. Light, but she ran.

This is an obvious reference to Bela's first run, towards the Taren.

Rand bent over, squeezing his eyes shut. I will protect you, he thought.
Whatever else happens, I will see you safe, I swear it. I swear it . . .

This is a direct repeat of:

Rand led Red around the shoot, careful not to let the bay's hooves crush it. It did not seem right to destroy what the Green Man had done just to avoid an extra step. Egwene smiled at him, one of her secret smiles, and touched his arm. She was so pretty, with her unbound hair full of flowers, that he smiled back at her until she blushed and lowered her eyes. I will protect you, he thought. Whatever else happens, I will see you safe, I swear it.

And Egwene making plans to save Mat when she sees him in the Seanchan entourage, and laughing in pure shock when she finds him Prince of the Ravens, are both obvious references to Mat's reaction to her being Amyrlin, and coming to rescue her from Salidar. This encounter even ends with her trying to channel at Mat, again.

Terez
01-18-2013, 02:30 PM
Yeah, I think I mentioned both of those on DM before the book came out. I've forgotten a lot of them already.

SamJ
01-18-2013, 02:38 PM
Some more:

Tam being tortured in the DO first vision linking back to Kari being tortuted in the confrontation in TEOTW.

Also various visions of Rand's friends being DFs - a parallel to some of the torment visions Ishy put him through.

Lan 'sheathing the sword' in his side as the ploy to kill Demandred. Parallel to Rand's wound in the side in TDR.

Demandred's single-minded search for Rand when actually facing Mat as a parallel for Couladin.

'Flickers' in TAR as a parallel of the worlds of if when travelling portal stones.

SamJ
01-18-2013, 03:08 PM
Also - some parallels with the battle of Emond's Field. Eg the initial fight was on 4 fronts. In the Two Rivers this was:

North - where Bran and Perrin fought. This would parallel Shayol Ghul (Perrin as a possible parallel for Rand, though only in the sense of the leader fighting on the northern front)
South - where Tam fought. Parallel for the Caemlyn front, where Tam fought in AMOL
And, less strongly, East (Abell Cauthon in the TRs; Kandor in the LB); and West (Jon Thane and Samel Crowe in the TRs; Tarwin's Gap in AMOL). Less strong parallels but in the battle of Emond's Field these fronts are meant to prevent flanking, while in AMOL they are both delaying battles.

Then there are some final parallels with the Merrilor battle - with Verin's and Alanna representing the use of cannon; with the Seanchan at first sitting out like the Whitecloaks, then joining the battle like the men from Devons Ride and Watch Hill; and with the civilians helping out behind lines like the Tinkers in the Two Rivers.

Dom
01-18-2013, 04:10 PM
Two very obvious ones:

- RJ's last scene brings things full circle. Rand is now the "mysterious stranger on the road" of his first scene. His joke about being now a thief is an allusion to this.

- The last encounter of Moridin and Rand at the beginning of the book is a variant of the Dragonmount prologue, with their roles inverted. Rand is now the one who tells Moridin that he hates himself so much he wants to end it all, and tells Moridin he is mad. The finale also offers a nice intentional inversion: instead of creating the Dragonmount volcano, the "Dragon" now burns on a pyre - and he is really Ishamael, while Rand remains around in secret, like Ishamael who wasn't fully bound.

Dom
01-18-2013, 05:49 PM
Another nice bit of mirroring/remix of old motifs and plot points occurs when Rand and Nynaeve discuss Callandor's flaw.

In TDR Lanfear sent the girls to Rand in Tear, then to get them in the Stone she tipped the BA.

Nynaeve once explained to Elayne/Egwene that a trap awaited them in the Heart of the Stone (Tear) but they had to spring that trap and see what comes.

In AMOL, the sword taken from the Heart of the Stone becomes the trap. Rand explains to Nynaeve they must spring the trap, in much the same terms an logic she used in TDR.

And this time, Lanfear "guides" Perrin manipulatively as she did Egwene to the Heart as Silvie, but her intent is now to kill those in the heart of the cavern, which was Ishamael's goal in TRR. As for him, this time around he's the one waiting for Rand there.

mogi67
01-18-2013, 05:57 PM
"One long adventure. A whole lifetime of it" <3

Ieyasu
01-19-2013, 01:27 AM
I liked this:

Elan Morin grimaced. "Look at you," he said scornfully. "Once you stood first among the Servants. Once you wore the Ring of Tamyrlin, and sat in the High Seat, Once you summoned the Nine Rods of Dominion. Now look at you!


"Then you must accept me for who I am," Rand said, voice growing loud, crisp. Like a battle horn. "I am Lews Therin Telamon, the Dragon. I ruled these lands, unified, during the Age of Legends. I was leader of all the armies of the Light, I wore the Ring of Tamyrlin. I stood first among the Servants, highest of the Aes Sedai, and I could summon the Nine Rods of Dominion."

Daekyras
01-19-2013, 08:10 AM
Be nice. ;) Obvious ones are fine, too; this thread is for all of them.

this is kinda embarassing now....i, um, was being nice. I really hadn't spotted it....:o

Terez
01-22-2013, 02:51 PM
This isn't exactly a reference, but I thought I'd put it here.

Chapter 9: "To Die Well"
Lan
Egwene
Rand

It's kind of funny that of the 3 POVs in this chapter, the two who were expected to die didn't, and the one many/most thought would live actually died. And died well, I might add. ;)

Also, the POV Index (https://sites.google.com/site/hcfflibrary/pov-index) has been updated.

GonzoTheGreat
01-23-2013, 05:23 AM
Also, the POV Index (https://sites.google.com/site/hcfflibrary/pov-index) has been updated.
That is a somewhat different format than the earlier version, which makes upgrading difficult.
It is more user-friendly, I'll admit.

Terez
01-23-2013, 07:26 AM
Meh, I think they were about equally user-friendly, but the new one is purtier.

Terez
01-24-2013, 05:27 AM
This one can't really be attributed to Brandon, but it's a good one:

Siuan nodded, shifting slightly to try to find a better balance. No two of her stool's legs were the same length. "But it could be worse. Remind me to tell you about the Year of the Four Amyrlins; that was about a hundred and fifty years after the founding of Tar Valon. In those days, the normal workings of the Tower nearly rivaled what's happening today. Every hand tried to snatch the tiller, if they could. There were actually two rival Halls of the Tower in Tar Valon for part of that year. Almost like now. Just about everyone came to grief in the end, including a few who thought they were going to save the Tower. Some of them might have, if they hadn't stepped in quicksand. The Tower survived anyway, of course. It always does."
It was a little less than a year after Siuan's deposition when Egwene was finally affirmed as Amyrlin in the Tower, and now we've got Cadsuane. So it's close to being a Year of Four Amyrlins. The War of the Hundred Years and the Hundred Companions suggest that there's nothing wrong with a little approximation.

fionwe1987
01-24-2013, 06:06 AM
This one can't really be attributed to Brandon, but it's a good one:


It was a little less than a year after Siuan's deposition when Egwene was finally affirmed as Amyrlin in the Tower, and now we've got Cadsuane. So it's close to being a Year of Four Amyrlins. The War of the Hundred Years and the Hundred Companions suggest that there's nothing wrong with a little approximation.
That's... really cool. Awesome job!

And you may also add that just about everyone came to grief. Elaida and Siuan, obviously. Egwene died a heroes death, but only after experiencing much loss and grief. And Cadsuane got saddled with a job she's tried very hard to avoid.

Terez
01-24-2013, 06:21 AM
It's probably the most blatant foreshadowing of Egwene's death I've found so far. It only occurred to me because I was trying to organize the Aes Sedai section of the POV index and I realized there were four Amyrlins.

sleepinghour
01-24-2013, 08:21 AM
It was a little less than a year after Siuan's deposition when Egwene was finally affirmed as Amyrlin in the Tower, and now we've got Cadsuane. So it's close to being a Year of Four Amyrlins. The War of the Hundred Years and the Hundred Companions suggest that there's nothing wrong with a little approximation.

Believe it or not, Felix called that years ago (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=154976&postcount=2). (Of course, Felix predicted that the fourth Amyrlin would be Mat...) I was trying to collect quotes foreshadowing Egwene's death and vaguely remembered Felix's post, but I never found the quote as I searched for "Three Amyrlins" for some reason.

jakebarnes
01-24-2013, 10:54 AM
Believe it or not, Felix called that years ago (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=154976&postcount=2). (Of course, Felix predicted that the fourth Amyrlin would be Mat...) I was trying to collect quotes foreshadowing Egwene's death and vaguely remembered Felix's post, but I never found the quote as I searched for "Three Amyrlins" for some reason.

If you throw enough crap at the wall, some of it is bound to stick.

GonzoTheGreat
01-24-2013, 11:22 AM
If you throw enough crap at the wall, some of it is bound to stick.
Or, if not, pile up a big enough hill in front of it that you can still peak over the wall now and then.

Terez
01-25-2013, 12:27 AM
Believe it or not, Felix called that years ago (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=154976&postcount=2). (Of course, Felix predicted that the fourth Amyrlin would be Mat...) I was trying to collect quotes foreshadowing Egwene's death and vaguely remembered Felix's post, but I never found the quote as I searched for "Three Amyrlins" for some reason.
I'm trying to dig him out of his hole on Twitter. I tried to get him to write up his theory about Mora and Dragonmount moving before the book came out, but he didn't for whatever reason.

Terez
01-30-2013, 07:51 AM
Just remembered another one. Dunno if it's a deliberate reference, but it's pretty much a mirror.

"You know how to make a fellow feel loved. Well, I know how you feel about me."

"And how is that?"

"You looked over your shoulder."

She shook her head. "I had forgotten that you are supremely good at saying that which has no meaning, Matrim."

"When you saw me," Mat explained, "with a dagger in hand—as if to throw at you—you didn't call for your guards. You didn't fear I was here to kill you. You looked over your shoulder to see what I was aiming at. That's the most loving gesture I think a man could receive from a woman. Unless you'd like to sit on my knee for a little while . . ."
Aviendha shook herself as the crooning ended, stared at the last particles as they vanished, and turned to Rand, gathering the blanket closer. Her hand came up, and a stream of fire as thick as his head roared toward him.

Startled even inside the emptiness, never thinking of the Power, he threw himself to the ground beneath the billowing flames. They died in an instant.

"What are you doing?" he barked, so angry, so shocked, that the Void cracked and saidin vanished from him. He scrambled to his feet, stalking toward her. "This tops any ingratitude I ever heard of!" He was going to shake her until her teeth rattled. "I just saved your life, in case you failed to notice, and if I offended some bloody Aiel custom, I don't give a —!"

"The next time," she snapped back, "I will leave the great Car'a'carn to deal with matters by himself!" Awkwardly clutching the blanket close, she ducked stiff-backed into the tent.

For the first time, he looked behind him. At another Draghkar, crumpled on the ground in flames. He had been so angry that he had not heard the crackling and popping as it burned, had not smelled the odor of burning grease. He had not even sensed the evil of it.
It's probably worth noting that Brandon gave up on his reread after TFOH and started writing. Some of these might be subliminal influences.

Dom
01-30-2013, 10:44 AM
Just remembered another one. Dunno if it's a deliberate reference, but it's pretty much a mirror.



It's probably worth noting that Brandon gave up on his reread after TFOH and started writing. Some of these might be subliminal influences.

It's a good one, though.

Didn't Brandon start talking about foreshadowing/patterns during his first reread (the complete one). I guess he could have noted down quite a few scenes with his outline in mind the first time around.

A nice one from RJ is this one:

(EOTW): His eyes caught his own reflection in a mirror hanging askew from bubbled marble. His clothes had been regal once, in gray and scarlet and gold; now the finely-woven cloth, brought by merchants from across the World Sea, was torn and dirty, thick with the same dust that covered his hair and skin. For a moment he fingered the symbol on his cloak, a circle half white and half black, the colors separated by a sinuous line. It meant something, that symbol. But the embroidered circle could not hold his attention long. He gazed at his own image with as much wonder. A tall man just into his middle years, handsome once, but now with hair already more white than brown and a face lined by strain and worry, dark eyes that had seen too much. Lews Therin began to chuckle, then threw back his head; his laughter echoed down the lifeless halls.

Then Ishamael appears:

(EOTW) his attention was fixed on the man staring into the mirror and laughing.


Which became this:

(AMOL) He laughed, holding it up before him. A mirror, he thought. I need a mirror.

He found one beyond the next partition of the tent. Apparently, he'd been left completely alone. He held up the candle, looking into the small mirror. Moridin's face looked back at him.

A few nice veiled allusions, or mirrors (inversions) to Egwene dying and joining the List too:

(EOTW)Of all things he might want to think about right then, the Mayor's daughter was far down the list. (...) No, he certainly did not want to add Egwene to his thoughts.

and chapter one ends on this:

(EOTW) Perhaps she would not be there after all. Oddly, that possibility did not make him feel any better.

Mat's attempts to wriggle out of helping Rand with the task Tam assigned him is also heavily foreshadowed in chapter one. It's Tam in that scene who tricks/traps Mat to help Rand.

So is the last scene with Tuon and the celebrations on the Green, which finally brought about what so excited Mat/Rand about Bel Tine but that the Shadow and Fain ruined before. Of course Fireworks on the Green (Field of Merrilor) is also a metaphor for the Last Battle. In the early chapters, Fain is often used as a "stand-in" for Mat, while the Gleeman/The Piper who leads all the children of the town away is a stand-in for Rand's role in breaker of all bonds.

(EOTW) And to top everything, if the rumors could be believed, a grand display of fireworks was planned for the Green – if the first peddler of the year appeared in time, of course. That had been causing considerable talk; it was ten years since the last such display, and that was still talked about.

Which in AMOL turned into that scene, after Mat "released the badger on the Green" (his badger in the sack is probably the Seanchan) and gave them all one hell of a figurative Fireworks display, he offers a literal one:

(AMOL)Mat raised his arm, and Tuon frowned, looking upward at nothing. Mat spun and thrust his hand farther toward the sky.

Nightflowers began to explode high above the camp.

Mat grinned. Aludra had taken a little convincing, but only a little. She did so like to make things explode.

It was not truly dusk yet, but the show was still grand. Aludra now had half of the dragoners trained to build fireworks and handle her powders. She seemed far less secretive than she once had.

The sounds of the display washed over them.

"Fireworks?" Tuon said.

"The best bloody firework show in the history of my land or yours," Mat said.

I keep thinking RJ was attempting to get those final LB celebrations happen on Sunday, but Brandon expanding the timelines (adding gaps of weeks here and there, and the month before Merrilor) made it impossible.

Another nice mirror/inversion was this:


(AMOL) The entire plateau collapsed upon itself, burying the dead. Elayne watched, feeling numb, feeling the ground shake. It—

Light.

She sat up straight, feeling the swelling of power in Rand. Her attention flew away from the Heights, instead focused on him. The feeling of supreme strength, the beauty of control and domination. A light shot into the sky far to the north, so bright that she gasped.

The end had come.


(....)

"Light," Thom whispered.

Light it was, breaking out of the top of the mountain of Shayol Ghul, a radiant beam that melted the mountain's tip and shot straight into the sky.

(...)

Far to the north, a beam of light rose into the air, so bright that it lit the Field of Merrilor even such a great distance away. The helpers and the wounded alike blinked, stumbling to their feet, shading their faces.

That light, a brilliant lance in the heavens, burned away the clouds and opened up the sky.

(...)

Thom turned Moiraine away from the corridor, but she refused to look away. She opened her eyes, though she knew that the light was too intense, and she saw something. Rand and Moridin, standing in the light as it expanded outward to consume the entire mountain in its glow.

The blackness in front of Rand hung like a hole, sucking in everything. Slowly, bit by bit, that hole shrank away until it was just a pinprick.

It vanished.



I doubt many missed that, but it all goes back to this:

(EOTW) he air turned to fire, the fire to light liquefied. The bolt that struck from the heavens would have seared and blinded any eye that glimpsed it, even for an instant. From the heavens it came, blazed through Lews Therin Telamon, bored into the bowels of the earth. Stone turned to vapor at its touch. The earth thrashed and quivered like a living thing in agony. Only a heartbeat did the shining bar exist, connecting ground and sky, but even after it vanished the earth yet heaved like the sea in a storm. Molten rock fountained five hundred feet into the air, and the groaning ground rose, thrusting the burning spray ever upward, ever higher. From north and south, from east and west, the wind howled in, snapping trees like twigs, shrieking and blowing as if to aid the growing mountain ever skyward. Ever skyward.

At last the wind died, the earth stilled to trembling mutters. Of Lews Therin Telamon, no sign remained. Where he had stood a mountain now rose miles into the sky, molten lava still gushing from its broken peak.

Brandon only missed including some mirror to the next sentence, to complete the mirroring, provide a visual metaphor for the "liberated" True Source (completing the triad of such images... the lake at Rhuidean when he "frees"s the Aiel from their "Sin" that sent them to the Wastelands, and the big hole he made at Shadar Logoth that will soon fill in and become a lake of "clean rain water"):

(EOTW)The broad, straight river had been pushed into a curve away from the mountain, and there it split to form a long island in its midst. The shadow of the mountain almost reached the island; it lay dark across the land like the ominous hand of prophecy. For a time the dull, protesting rumbles of the earth were the only sound.

Which of course would have brought things full circle and give us both the "Three in a Boat" scene to bring "Moridin" to his funeral pyre, and a river to bring the two inconscious bodies over.

That RJ had made this quite literal, the Erinin splitting in two, like saidin/saidar were still separate, that he also created the legend of the Winespring Water emerging from the grounds to mark the passing of Aemon and the Band of the Red Hand suggests strongly he meant for a river/source to emerge in the now Green Valley of Thankan'dar. Making it strictly metaphorical, with no source of water visible or mentioned at all, wasn't very RJ-like. Bad call to turn Three in a Boat into a pure metaphor. The most "proper" imagery would have been to have two sources, waterfalls or something, emerging from the ground on both sides of the Moutain (thus the boat/raft to carry reverently/ceremoniously Moridin's body to his pyre between those "two rivers"), and merging into a single river going out of the Valley to symbolize the reunion of saidin/saidar, both clean, and becoming from there many rivers, to complete the imagery RJ used to represent the Source becoming the Pattern (Waterwood, Fingers of the Dragons, the bogs at Merrilor etc.)

Terez
01-30-2013, 09:52 PM
Yeah, and I already mentioned in another thread the reference in the last scene to this dream, not just the obvious symbolism representing the bodyswap, but the mirror itself:

He found himself staring at the reflection of his own face, pale and shivering in the knife-edge cold. Ba'alzamon's image grew behind his, staring at him; not seeing, but staring still. In every mirror, the flames of Ba'alzamon's face raged behind him, enveloping, consuming, merging. He wanted to scream, but his throat was frozen. There was only one face in those endless mirrors. His own face. Ba'alzamon's face. One face.

GonzoTheGreat
01-31-2013, 05:29 AM
Perrin getting shot and nearly dying, managing to find Healing only in the nick of time, is a clear repeat of that happening to him before, in TSR.

Terez
01-31-2013, 05:35 AM
That time is was Loial who carried him, but Mistress Luhhan was there, so there's another tie:

The arrowhead truly did not seem to hurt as much as it had, but he ached all over. Loial was carrying him somewhere, bending through doorways. There was Mistress Luhhan, biting her lip, eyes squinched as if about to cry. He wondered why. She never cried. Mistress al'Vere looked worried, too.

"Mistress Luhhan," he murmured, "Mother says I can come be apprenticed to Master Luhhan." No. That was a long time ago. That was... What was? He could not seem to remember.

He was lying on something hard, listening to Alanna speak. "...barbs are caught on bone as well as flesh, and the arrowhead has twisted. I must realign it with the first wound and pull it out. If the shock does not kill him, I can then Heal the damage I have done as well as the rest. There is no other way. He is near the brink now." Nothing to do with him.

Faile smiled down at him tremulously, her face upside down. Had he really once thought her mouth was too wide? It was just right. He wanted to touch her cheek, but Mistress al'Vere and Mistress Luhhan were holding his wrists for some reason, leaning with all their weight. Someone was lying across his legs, too, and Loial's big hands swallowed his shoulders, pressing them flat to the table. Table. Yes. The kitchen table.

"Bite down, my heart," Faile said from far away. "It will hurt."

SamJ
01-31-2013, 08:08 AM
Not a Brandon one, but I wonder whether the strange shape of the pyre in DKS' AMOL draft cover was supposed to look like a tree . . . a reminder of the Green Man's grave in EOTW?

Dom
01-31-2013, 09:35 AM
Not a Brandon one, but I wonder whether the strange shape of the pyre in DKS' AMOL draft cover was supposed to look like a tree . . . a reminder of the Green Man's grave in EOTW?

Maybe, with DKS it's impossible to know. I doubt he would have thought of that without Brandon sending him in that direction.

But you don't need that to make this one work as those elements are already in the book with Shayol Ghul becoming a fertile valley as Rand "died". In fact DKS didn't represent it so well, his field in the draft looked more dying than blooming.

Balthamel with his mask was a parralel to the DO as "Father of Lies", Aginor who couldn't resist it drew too much from the Eye of the World as Rand drew too it too, and who burned himself out, was a parralel of Moridin in the ending... and a seal broke, and the Horn was found. The Shadar Logoth dagger that attracted the Shadow that could sneak on Rand unseen was paralleled by the blunt dagger that let Rand sneak unseen. The Green Man held Balthamel and crushed him and it was his end, but the Nym's physical vessel was then beyond saving, like Rand who held the DO in his hands, squeezing him.. then throwing him back outside the Pattern. But Loial sang to Someshta's grave and the garden of the Eye would endure as a garden in the Blight that also receded. In AMOL Rand had gained the hidden powers of a Nym over the land. He was a Green Man, metaphorically.

Moiraine looking at him, muttering about "the Dragon is reborn" is alluded to in AMOL both by the inversion that the Dragon is now "dead" and it's Rand who is "reborn" and that this time Rand escapes without her noticing, but Moiraine's own POV is mirrored by Cadsuane noticing what Rand has done. Adding to the mix Aes Sedai who come and trap her is a nice touch, as it works as an allusion to what comes next in TGH, where Moiraine had to take her distances and let Rand go on his own, as she now has the eyes of the WT on her, the Amyrlin even seemingly coming to "bring her back" and punish her. RJ himself wrote in Cadsuane noticing Rand and sisters coming for her, but Brandon did really well (apparently it's him, he decided it was the best place to include RJ's final fate for Cadsuane and the resolution to Egwene's successor) to add the Cadsuane POV as it fits perfectly as a variant of what happens with Moiraine/Rand at the end of TEOTW/start of TGH.

Birgitte "stealing the Horn" (literally, telling little Olver to hide it, preferably throw it in the sea) is also a nice touch, as it echoes TGH, with the Horn getting stolen, and the allusion to the sea evokes both Falme and what Nynaeve (who was some sort of Birgitte to Elayne before Birgitte arrived) had asked Egeanin to do with the "male a'dam".

The ending of the first three books are three variants of the ending. It's full of layers. The Portal Stone episode foreshadowing heavily the confrontation with Shai'tan, the sword duel with Turak in the real world followed by a "out of the world" fight with Ishamael, the blood shed. Egwene being "captive" was Rand's motivation to move forward to Falme and do what he had to do, much as in AMOL her death ("prisoner of the Lord of the Grave") and her intervention beyond the grave to Rand was pivotal in Rand's final decision. Like in TGH, he couldn't really help her, he had to let his friends fight. Egwene, Moiraine, Min, Elayne etc. all had their own fights, and Mat and Perrin ran with the Heroes in battle, Ingtar (who becomes a nice mirror to the Great Captain Ituralde, who shared his belief all was lost, not only in AMOL but already by KOD/TGS: Ituralde, noble but touched by the Shadow, was always going into suicidal "last stands" for honor) holding a narrow alley alone to allow the boys to escape Falme is mirrored in the battle of Ituralde/Darlin holding the pass into Thankan'dar. Mat, of course, uses the rubby dagger and for the first time he kills with it in a scene that echoes his final fight with Fain (which was well done, except for the detail that Fain was constantly cutting himself with the dagger and seemed immune to it like Mat.. not sure why Brandon chose to make him turn black and rot instead of dying more mundanely, though it made a nice mirror to what happened to Ishamael in TDR). The apparition of Lanfear at the end of things, finally revealing her truth self and intent, is also paralleled in AMOL when she appears, with her old appearance, and reveals her true goals.

It's the same with TDR, again two "duels" for Rand, Perrin running in TAR - that time skipping the battle with his friends to find and free Faile, Mat fighting his way into the maze-like halls of the Stone and who has to be reminded of his duty as Hornsounder in the aftermath, Egwene caught in "another dimension" and trying to find ways to touch the real world to free herself (in AMOL she talks to Rand, who by his victory "frees her" for rebirth). Another element was the crystal-like material of Callandor deflecting balefire which this time Moiraine used (in AMOL Egwene vainquished it, creating the crystal material that supposedly is the same as Callandor's... her "new weave" might actually be an old one found again, a new material found during the War of Shadow and able to deflect balefire, which Callandor was made of on purpose).

Even the raken episode to be able to enter the valley and reach SG works very well as a mirror of Mat's "flight"/climb over the rooftops to find his way to into the Stone, among Aiel and Defenders (both main forces at Thankan'dar) then fighting all the way to the cells... but the prisoners had freed themselves.

Another very nice touch is how the Heart of the Stone, a large "hall" inside the "mountain of stone", with his redstone columns, mirrors the Pit of Doom. Moridin seizing in the PoD the sword that wasn't his to touch sealed his doom. And in the end Callandor is left there, buried inside the mountain as the Pit of Doom collapse as Rand gets out.. it's become the "sword in the stone" more literally now.

It's fun how all the san'angreal were destroyed or buried or trapped by the end... Sakarnen and Vora's wand both ending up trapped in crystal, and buried with the collapse of the Heights, and Callandor trapped in SG, and the AK both destroyed. Men and Women will have to form giant mixed gender circles now if they need huge amounts of the OP... there's only more minor san'angreal for women and a few angreal left around.

suttree
01-31-2013, 12:44 PM
there's only more minor san'angreal for women

I'm spacing, what are you referring to here?

fionwe1987
01-31-2013, 01:19 PM
I'm spacing, what are you referring to here?
He's talking of the few other sa'angreal the White Tower has, that Egwene referenced in this book, and were referenced before.

SamJ
01-31-2013, 01:20 PM
Thanks Dom - I had spotted some of those but not all, so that was an interesting read. Tbh my speculation re DKS's draft cover was more of a weak attempt to explain the weird pyre than to make the endings fit. Have seen/read some stuff on funeral pyres (Anglo-Saxon funeral practises) and it just looked really wrong. But who knows what DKS was aiming for.

Dom
01-31-2013, 06:38 PM
I'm spacing, what are you referring to here?

The fact Vora's Wand if referred to as the Tower's most powerful means they have at least one other, probably a few.

lord Mordeth
01-31-2013, 07:16 PM
Siuan used one to Heal Mat in TDR; it would have been a nice detail to bring it back for the LB, as logically someone should have been using it at Merrilor.

Ieyasu
01-31-2013, 07:20 PM
Siuan used one to Heal Mat in TDR; it would have been a nice detail to bring it back for the LB, as logically someone should have been using it at Merrilor.

That was the same one. Vora's Fluted Wand.

GonzoTheGreat
02-03-2013, 07:47 AM
The capture of Alviarin and her squad by the Ents, ehr, Ogier, mirrors the imprisonment of Saruman by the Ogier, ehr, Ents. We'll have to wait for an outrigger to see whether or not Olver ends up on a boat to the Far West, though.

Rand al'Fain
02-03-2013, 11:57 AM
The capture of Alviarin and her squad by the Ents, ehr, Ogier, mirrors the imprisonment of Saruman by the Ogier, ehr, Ents. We'll have to wait for an outrigger to see whether or not Olver ends up on a boat to the Far West, though.

He did, to dump the Horn.

Cortar
02-03-2013, 02:00 PM
He did, to dump the Horn.

No, he gets on the boat after the dumps the horn in the pit of doom. Randd and the rest of the fellowshipwere there for distraction

Dom
02-08-2013, 03:01 PM
A kind of two-in-one LB joke RJ put in TSR that gave Thom the lie in AMOL:

Thom on Wavedancer explains to Elayne that everything gets distorted with time and she is naive to believe stories of Arthur Hawkwing that have the armies stopping in the middle of battle so Hawkwing could duel champions of the other side.

Which is exactly what Demandred and the Sharans did in the end.. because her brothers went to challenge him one-on-one. Then Lan. Not a hundred duels, but still three in a row.:D

He also grumbles about the impossibility of having that many duels in a single day, but where Thom spent the LB, time was slow and distorted, and whole battles elsewhere were fought while a few minutes passed for him.

GonzoTheGreat
02-09-2013, 04:26 AM
Thom also duelled with at least 5 AS during the LB. Admittedly, he didn't bother stopping the battle for it, but that may be attributed to artistic license I think.

Dom
02-09-2013, 09:20 AM
Thom also duelled with at least 5 AS during the LB. Admittedly, he didn't bother stopping the battle for it, but that may be attributed to artistic license I think.

In his first scene, he's shown juggling with balls of various (ajah) colors, while doing something else. :)

For Hawkwing, it's quite possible the story is grossly exaggerated (100 duels in a day) but that it still has a basis in fact.

It's either that of RJ meant that to be a kind of joke, with men who grew up the head full of Hawkwing's legends attempting to do these things Hawkwing himself would never have done for real. Turak did it, his guards not interfering in his duel with Rand, and Gawyn-Galad-Lan, the three Arthurian knights, challenged the "Black Knight" in single combat.

There was another joke in the episode (foreshadowing or not, when those things don't have a few variants it's hard to tell what RJ foreshadowed and what Brandon decided to use to turn into foreshadowing to fill holes in a RJ-like way), as Thom was telling Elayne that many generations post TG, it might be her the heroin of the LB. Her, or him. That was... doubtful at the time, but with her commander of the Light and him spending the LB at the DO's doorstep, this could well happen.

skaywalker
02-09-2013, 02:26 PM
As I was reading Egweene's musings about needing to rescue Mat from the Seanchan, I instantly thought about the reversal when Mat thought she is in trouble in Salidar and wanted to save her from the Aes Sedai.

Neilbert
02-09-2013, 04:08 PM
Hey Dom, in regards to the Mat killing Fain angle I think there is a big difference between being immune to the daggers magical properties, and being immune to it as a dagger. The fact that Fain was able to cut his hand with it should make it clear that the dagger can harm him, at least as much as any other dagger.

Terez
02-09-2013, 05:00 PM
I think it was the rotting that Dom found odd, not the death by dagger. As Dom said, he could have just died 'mundanely' from the dagger, but instead his body rotted. I'm not so sure that was Brandon's choice, though. And in a way it makes sense; the soul of Mordeth is what provided the immunity.

fionwe1987
02-09-2013, 05:06 PM
I think it was the rotting that Dom found odd, not the death by dagger. As Dom said, he could have just died 'mundanely' from the dagger, but instead his body rotted. I'm not so sure that was Brandon's choice, though. And in a way it makes sense; the soul of Mordeth is what provided the immunity.

It could also be that the only reason Fain's body hadn't rotted from the multiple pricks from the dagger before was because Mordeth's power was holding it together. With Mordeth severed from the body by death, it now rapidly degraded.

Terez
02-09-2013, 05:16 PM
Isn't that what I said?

fionwe1987
02-09-2013, 06:52 PM
Isn't that what I said?

I seem to have misread your post.

Neilbert
02-09-2013, 08:33 PM
Idk if this is the place for it, but one thing that really struck me was a missed opportunity for a sweet call back. "Lead us" should have been "we come". I was honestly shocked that wasn't the case. Wolves don't seem to have a concept of leadership beyond the pack alpha, and like Faile said, Perrin is really the king of the wolves because there is noone to dispute the claim, not because they look to him for leadership.

E: Fain rotting was a callback to Baalzamon rotting, and there are enough reasons why Fain might rot upon dead that I really didn't question it. Terez' explanation works, you could also argue that Fain was a rotten husk a the time, held together by marshal independent of dagger scratches.

I did like that marshdar was so very close to just rolling in and winning. IMO if it hadn't been for his last vestige of Fain's insanity compelling marshy to seek out Rand then new Shadar Lagoth would have been the best case scenario, and that was a call back in its own way.

Tollingtoy
02-10-2013, 10:15 AM
I think it was the rotting that Dom found odd, not the death by dagger. As Dom said, he could have just died 'mundanely' from the dagger, but instead his body rotted. I'm not so sure that was Brandon's choice, though. And in a way it makes sense; the soul of Mordeth is what provided the immunity.


Does this mean that Mordeth and Mashdar are both gone forever now?

GonzoTheGreat
02-10-2013, 10:52 AM
Does this mean that Mordeth and Mashdar are both gone forever now?
Yep. Or until someone manages to reproduce the effects from scratch. Whichever comes first.

Neilbert
02-10-2013, 12:37 PM
Does this mean that Mordeth and Mashdar are both gone forever now?

Modeth is, but Marshdar will be back, if only when this age comes again.

Ishara
02-16-2013, 11:42 AM
Sorry, how so? Mashadar was created by the collective evil of the people of Aridhol. People who were not allied with the Dark, but with the Light, whose actions in the name of the Light were so corrupt that they spawned their own evil.

What says it will come about again?

TITLE: Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 19 - Shadow's Waiting
"The story is too long to tell in full, and too grim, and only fragments are known, even in Tar Valon. How Thorin's son, Caar, came to win Aridhol back to the Second Covenant, and Balwen sat his throne, a withered shell with the light of madness in his eyes, laughing while Mordeth smiled at his side and ordered, the deaths of Caar and the embassy as Friends of the Dark. How Prince Caar came to be called Caar One-Hand. How he escaped the dungeons of Aridhol and fled alone to the Borderlands with Mordeth's unnatural assassins at his heels. How there he met Rhea, who did not know who he was, and married her, and set the skein in the Pattern that led to his death at her hands, and hers by her own hand before his tomb, and the fall of Aleth-loriel. How the armies of Manetheren came to avenge Caar and found the gates of Aridhol torn down, no living thing inside the walls, but something worse than death. No enemy had come to Aridhol but Aridhol. Suspicion and hate had given birth to something that fed on that which created it, something locked in the bedrock on which the city stood. Mashadar waits still, hungering. Men spoke of Aridhol no more. They named it Shadar Logoth, the Place Where the Shadow Waits, or more simply, Shadow's Waiting.

Terez
02-16-2013, 11:49 AM
Later statements by Brandon (in particular bossman's interview) make it clear that Moiraine's presentation of the creation of Mashadar was a bit oversimplified. That said, I don't see any particular reason to think it will certainly come again; RJ always said Fain was unique to this Age, so I'm guessing that's one of the differing details of the tapestry that can only be seen up close.

Dom
02-16-2013, 01:55 PM
Later statements by Brandon (in particular bossman's interview) make it clear that Moiraine's presentation of the creation of Mashadar was a bit oversimplified. That said, I don't see any particular reason to think it will certainly come again; RJ always said Fain was unique to this Age, so I'm guessing that's one of the differing details of the tapestry that can only be seen up close.

What's really interesting/mysterious about it is that now we know Mordeth obtained some of his knowledge (and possibly powers, since it appears he got gifts from the Eelfinn as well) to create Shadar Logoth from Sindhol, and he implied a lot in AMOL that proximity to a place where the worlds were merged in some way was part of the "recipe". It seems obvious he meant Ghenjei, for Aridhol, and now he was trying a new attempt at SG.

That makes it all very tempting to draw a direct filiation between the creation of Shadar Logoth and the necessity to cleanse saidin, as the same Aelfinn went and gave Rand the solution to do it using the taint of Shadar Logoth... which they seemed to have used Mordeth to create in the first place. Interestingly, the Sindhol creatures also used Mat, who would end up destroying Mordeth, and held alive the woman who held the final key for Egwene and Rand to compromise and work together. In their own twisted and convoluted ways, they really made massive contributions to the Shadow's defeat. Holding Moiraine alive to escape Rand's darkness and for a timely return in the nick of time, Mat and Tuon, SL to Mordeth and the Cleansing, and the riddles to defeat the DO to Rand. And we are still missing Moraine's Q&A.

RJ also solidly hinted that some of Shai'tan's powers were greater in their realms.. naming him while there, specifically. Clearly they wanted Shai'tan sealed away again... but for the rest of their motivations...

I seriously hope we'll get more details about the Aelfinn & Eelfinn and Mordeth and the real story of Aridhol in the Encyclopedia. It's fairly clear from Brandon's conversation with Matt that he found a lot about all this in RJ's notes. We want it too! :p

Lately I've started to wonder if ominous "dark power" arising again in Seanchan isn't also related to Sindhol in some way, and if RJ wasn't preparing the stage for humanity to have to deal with the A&E now that they've dealt with the Shadow, thus perhaps the hooks he placed in the Ghenjei scene, and this detail about "merging worlds" and Mordeth etc. Also Tuon who believes them to be pure tales, and Perrin who was to become involved and who can now "jump between worlds", and Moghedien who's the last one alive knowing anything about Sindhol.. and Mat being the central player of those outriggers, and Birgitte's old "they're not the same evil as the Shadow, but so different from humans they might as well be called Evil". And they seem to know of ancient, dangerous and powerful stuff... Hmmm...

I'm eager to see what the "two sentences" about the outriggers will reveal anything about the foes of the outriggers. Apparently, if I heard right, we should get them late in spring.

sleepinghour
02-16-2013, 07:09 PM
I'm eager to see what the "two sentences" about the outriggers will reveal anything about the foes of the outriggers. Apparently, if I heard right, we should get them late in spring.

Turns out we didn't have to wait that long. Brandon's already revealed them (http://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/18n86l/wot_sequels_from_sanderson_amol_spoilers/) at recent signings.


The first is "Perrin is going to Shara to kill an old friend"

And the second is:

"Matt lying in a gutter wearing a tattered cloak"

Terez
02-16-2013, 07:39 PM
There was another one where I could have sworn he said Seanchan. But with all this stuff coming in, I'm confused. I need to read through everything we've entered because I didn't personally enter all of it which makes it harder for me to keep up.

Southpaw2012
02-16-2013, 07:54 PM
Turns out we didn't have to wait that long. Brandon's already revealed them (http://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/18n86l/wot_sequels_from_sanderson_amol_spoilers/) at recent signings.


We know that Faile gets the crown of Saldea so I wonder why Perrin leaves to go after someone in Shara

Dom
02-17-2013, 12:35 AM
Well, that's certainly disappointing.

I sure was hoping for a two sentences description rather than those.. riddles that sound more like private jokes.

Edit: From other reports it's apparently not the sentences but a summary, what Brandon is willing to say about the sentences for now. The real sentences will be released later.

suttree
02-17-2013, 02:00 AM
There was another one where I could have sworn he said Seanchan. But with all this stuff coming in, I'm confused. I need to read through everything we've entered because I didn't personally enter all of it which makes it harder for me to keep up.

Maybe this?

Interview: Jan 11th, 2013
Reddit Earlybird Q&A (Verbatim)
tiffranosaurusrex
If you had to think into the future of Randland, what do you picture the remaining heroes doing?
Brandon Sanderson
Well, in RJ's notes, Perrin was to be involved in the Outriggers (which would be the story of Mat and Tuon in Seanchan.) So Perrin would make his way there, eventually. (I don't know how that would have worked with Perrin's new obligations.)

Marie Curie 7
02-17-2013, 11:05 AM
Maybe this?

No, it turns out that it was this one:

AMOL Signing Report - Hunter
Huntington Beach, CA
February 7, 2013 (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=939#1)

HUNTER
Here's a tidbit from yesterday's signing:

BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)
Brandon revealed the gist of the two lines written for the outrigger novels. He says they will be released eventually, but the gists are: The first is about Mat waking up in a gutter somewhere, likely in Seanchan. The second is about Perrin heading out and thinking about how he may be forced to kill a friend.

I thought it was the one you linked at first, but Terez indicated that wasn't it, either. So I remembered the one above and found it again on Dragonmount. It hadn't been put in the database yet, so I entered it last night.

Terez
02-17-2013, 12:33 PM
It was probably more a combination of the two, since the second doesn't suggest Perrin went to Seanchan, while the first one does.

sleepinghour
02-19-2013, 06:36 PM
Brandon also confirmed (http://www.tor.com/blogs/2013/02/a-memory-of-light-tour-report-open-thread#323294) that Min was involved in what would have happened in the Outriggers, so either he didn't give the full sentences or there was additional info elsewhere in RJ's notes.

EN: I’m dying to know what happens to people in the future, like Min and Tuon, does Tuon change her perspective based on (something I didn’t catch, to do with Min’s viewings, I think)?
BWS: I can’t answer these, but I can say that Min is involved in what would happen in the outriggers, if it were to be written, but it’s not going to be.

If Perrin would have gone to Seanchan (which seems more likely than Shara), the "old friend" he was going to kill could have been either Mat or Min. Mat seems far more likely, but maybe Perrin thought Min had eloped with the escaped Forsaken Moridin and become a Darkfriend. :p

The Unreasoner
02-19-2013, 08:20 PM
It's implied that Rand and his harem go to Seanchan too. Rand's last PoV, and the prophecies about Rand and co on a boat.

GonzoTheGreat
02-20-2013, 04:19 AM
It's implied that Rand and his harem go to Seanchan too. Rand's last PoV, and the prophecies about Rand and co on a boat.
Why would they faff around with a boat, though? At least three of them can produce gateways: Elayne and Aviendha directly, and Min by requisitioning a sul'dam and damane.

David Selig
02-20-2013, 08:54 AM
Why would they faff around with a boat, though? At least three of them can produce gateways: Elayne and Aviendha directly, and Min by requisitioning a sul'dam and damane.
Did you forget how much Aviendha loves the ocean and travelling by boat or a ship? No doubt she'd soon go on a long cruise, she can't get enough of being surrounded by water everywhere she can see.

GonzoTheGreat
02-20-2013, 08:57 AM
Did you forget how much Aviendha loves the ocean and travelling by boat or a ship? No doubt she'd soon go on a long cruise, she can't get enough of being surrounded by water everywhere she can see.
I must admit that I had failed to take her views on that into consideration.

Terez
02-20-2013, 02:29 PM
For Elayne, though, it's like going on an adventure.

Bane Darkwulf
02-20-2013, 03:08 PM
This one can't really be attributed to Brandon, but it's a good one:


It was a little less than a year after Siuan's deposition when Egwene was finally affirmed as Amyrlin in the Tower, and now we've got Cadsuane. So it's close to being a Year of Four Amyrlins. The War of the Hundred Years and the Hundred Companions suggest that there's nothing wrong with a little approximation.

You FORGOT ONE, Terez. You forgot Eladia. IT WAS THE YEAR OF FOUR AMYRLINS. How do you forget stuff like that? It's a major part of Egwene's story arc.

Weiramon
02-21-2013, 02:39 AM
Aye, there is no doubt she forgot that handsome do Avriny a'Roihan woman.

Why, some would claim her reference to "close" referred to that Melaidhrin woman taking the Seat somewhat more than a year after that Sanche woman was stilled and murdered. Burn my eyes, that's ridiculous!

GonzoTheGreat
02-21-2013, 05:06 AM
You FORGOT ONE, Terez. You forgot Eladia. IT WAS THE YEAR OF FOUR AMYRLINS. How do you forget stuff like that? It's a major part of Egwene's story arc.
Cadsuane's Amyrlinity (Amyrlinhood? What's the proper term?) did not start until right in an entirely new Age. Surely that counts as a new year too.

Daekyras
02-21-2013, 09:20 AM
Cadsuane's Amyrlinity (Amyrlinhood? What's the proper term?) did not start until right in an entirely new Age. Surely that counts as a new year too.

I think thats how it works. Explains why Loial was so pissed off!

Weiramon
02-21-2013, 02:50 PM
Bah, that Ogier will simply have to refer to the time Before Cadsuane, and the time After the Dragon.

Terez
02-21-2013, 02:53 PM
You FORGOT ONE, Terez. You forgot Eladia. IT WAS THE YEAR OF FOUR AMYRLINS. How do you forget stuff like that? It's a major part of Egwene's story arc.
How did I forget her? She's one of the four, after all. (Siuan, Elaida, Egwene, Cadsuane) I just assumed that most people (i.e. every single person on this board) were smart enough to figure that out. She wasn't important to explaining the timing.

Rand al'Fain
02-21-2013, 03:19 PM
For Elayne, though, it's like going on an adventure.

You mean walking into an obvious trap, knowing it's an obvious trap, having a bath, and the proceed to spring the trap without having an idea of what to do to get out?

Works for me.

suttree
02-21-2013, 07:58 PM
You mean walking into an obvious trap, knowing it's an obvious trap, having a bath, and the proceed to spring the trap without having an idea of what to do to get out?

Works for me.

Exactly.

I mean take the BA ambush in Caemlyn. It's not as if she was working under time constraints, used all the resources available and neatly hamstrung the BA in her group with the linking trick. I mean the plan was so stupid, no way it would have worked even if an unknown artifact from the AoL hadn't coincidentally shown up at the exact right second.

Rand al'Fain
02-21-2013, 09:37 PM
Exactly.

I mean take the BA ambush in Caemlyn. It's not as if she was working under time constraints, used all the resources available and neatly hamstrung the BA in her group with the linking trick. I mean the plan was so stupid, no way it would have worked even if an unknown artifact from the AoL hadn't coincidentally shown up at the exact right second.

Because she learns so much from her mistakes over the course of the series?

GonzoTheGreat
02-22-2013, 04:59 AM
Because she learns so much from her mistakes over the course of the series?
Just look at her progress:
First, she gets surprised by an intruder in the palace garden. She doesn't even come close to being captured.
Then, she lets Liandrin lure her into a Seanchan trap, but she somehow fails to be caught and manages a fighting retreat.
Next, she gets wacked over the head by a bunch of footpads, who are too ignorant to do a proper job of shielding her, so that she easily escapes.
Then she gets to the full "be shielded by superior numbers of BA" stage.
And so forth.

She clearly does not just repeat her previous mistakes, there is a definite learning process going on. Over the course of the series, she's gotten better and better at being a Damsel in Distress.

suttree
02-22-2013, 10:40 AM
Because she learns so much from her mistakes over the course of the series?

Ah you mean alerting her guards that she was going down into her own guarded dungeons where prisoners where shielded? Why you would think it would take a totally unforeseeable rescue attempt by hidden DF's at that very second to throw something like that off. What are the odds of that though?

GonzoTheGreat
02-22-2013, 10:59 AM
Ah you mean alerting her guards that she was going down into her own guarded dungeons where prisoners where shielded? Why you would think it would take a totally unforeseeable rescue attempt by hidden DF's at that very second to throw something like that off. What are the odds of that though?
How about "fairly high", considering the fact that they'd already gambled wrong on such a scenario in Tear?
True, it didn't go as spectacularly wrong then in regard to Elayne herself; but that's where her 'learning' comes in.

But she knew fully well that having BA members locked up and shielded in closed cells would not necessarily stop the Shadow from reaching them.

suttree
02-22-2013, 12:21 PM
How about "fairly high", considering the fact that they'd already gambled wrong on such a scenario in Tear?
True, it didn't go as spectacularly wrong then in regard to Elayne herself; but that's where her 'learning' comes in.

But she knew fully well that having BA members locked up and shielded in closed cells would not necessarily stop the Shadow from reaching them.

Lol. "Fairly high". :rolleyes:

We see Elayne disguising herself to trick information form a shielded and unarmed woman with guards stationed out front. If the BA wasn't fooled what can she possibly do? The only risk comes from something like an inside job jailbreak at that very second, this risk of which is beyond astronomically low. I have yet to see a decent explanation for why Elayne made a stupid move here. It's like there is a knee jerk reaction to both scenes within the fandom.

GonzoTheGreat
02-22-2013, 01:01 PM
Was the cell warded against eavesdropping?
If so, then, if something went wrong, Elayne couldn't alert those guards.
If not, then the Shadow might be listening in to what was going on in the cell, and use the opportunity to bag the queen while springing (or killing, whichever) the prisoner.

If, on the other hand, Elayne had gotten some other AS to help (I know that Egwene was rather busy, but there were hundreds of others who could have been recruited to deal with the BA), then that other AS could have made the attempt. Without risking the life of the DR (who would've died if Elayne had bled to death there).

suttree
02-22-2013, 01:24 PM
You have to accept the fact that past a certain point more safeguards become not only unnecesary but possibly counter productive. Elayne was safe against anything short of an armed resuce during the exact time she was there. Interrogating a prisoner in your own dungeons while you have armed back up and OP channelers outside shielding the prisoner is quite away from dangerous. She had a decent plan and reasonable safeguards against any problem she was likely to face. There was no inherent lack of safety in the situation.

Further we know basd on Min's viewings that is really no chance of her bleeding out at that point. Not sure why that would even have been a concern based on the situation.

Rand al'Fain
02-22-2013, 06:11 PM
You have to accept the fact that past a certain point more safeguards become not only unnecesary but possibly counter productive. Elayne was safe against anything short of an armed resuce during the exact time she was there. Interrogating a prisoner in your own dungeons while you have armed back up and OP channelers outside shielding the prisoner is quite away from dangerous. She had a decent plan and reasonable safeguards against any problem she was likely to face. There was no inherent lack of safety in the situation.

Further we know basd on Min's viewings that is really no chance of her bleeding out at that point. Not sure why that would even have been a concern based on the situation.

Bleeding out? No. Being tortured, dismembered (arms or legs cut off without being killed for instance), raped, beaten, and otherwise harmed without being killed is certainly within the possibility. She didn't even consider these until she was stuck with a knife and was bleeding out on the floor of the dungeon.

At the Battle of Merrilor and what not, that's one thing, where she had to out herself at risk to keep morale up when everything looked bleak. Prior to this though, yeah, she had to learn the hard way, several times.

Just look at her progress:
First, she gets surprised by an intruder in the palace garden. She doesn't even come close to being captured.
Then, she lets Liandrin lure her into a Seanchan trap, but she somehow fails to be caught and manages a fighting retreat.
Next, she gets wacked over the head by a bunch of footpads, who are too ignorant to do a proper job of shielding her, so that she easily escapes.
Then she gets to the full "be shielded by superior numbers of BA" stage.
And so forth.

She clearly does not just repeat her previous mistakes, there is a definite learning process going on. Over the course of the series, she's gotten better and better at being a Damsel in Distress. Good point. But she didn't quite get to the point of being up in a tall tower where Rand had to battle a dragon or something to rescue her.

Bane Darkwulf
02-22-2013, 10:06 PM
Elayne couldn't find her way out of a trap if it was a straight line with a map, a GPS, a compass, and big fracking neon light arrows pointing towards the door. Hell, she'd help make the trap better for when someone competent cam,e alnog to spring her.

suttree
02-23-2013, 12:48 AM
@ Rand al' Fain

She was in her own freaking dungeons. She had an armed guard, channelers just outside shielding the prisoner, protection from the OP, a disguise and an escape route. Every reasonable precaution was taking and she wasn't putting herself in danger. It is absurd to suggest she should have planned for what happened. You would think we are talking about some hack-n-slash novel in which the hero magically stays out of harms way. She was harmed more by authorial fiat than any fault in her actions. If Brandon wanted a rescue attempt at that very second, no matter the suspension of belief needed, then it is going to happen. It doesn't change the fact that Elayne did not put herself in a risky situation. Given the circumstances the risk was negligible.

GonzoTheGreat
02-23-2013, 05:14 AM
Just for starters: entering a cell with a dangerous prisoner on your own, with no one to back you up, is not a negligible risk.

Two scenarios in which she could have found herself in big trouble, even without rescue:

1. The BA member she's interrogating spots the deception, and suddenly launches a physical attack. Such a ploy worked for Logain against Demandred, even though Demandred is a far more accomplished "physical fighter" than Elayne even dreams of being.

2. The BA member decides to defect to the Light, and bring a dead Chosen as a peace offering with her. Therefor, she suddenly sticks a knife into Elayne's throat.

And Elayne should have known that she could not fully trust Min's viewing, because no one could quite remember what it was, precisely. While it did guarantee the safe 'birth' of her children, it did not guarantee the safety of the mother, or that of her country.

David Selig
02-23-2013, 06:52 AM
Just for starters: entering a cell with a dangerous prisoner on your own, with no one to back you up, is not a negligible risk.

Two scenarios in which she could have found herself in big trouble, even without rescue:

1. The BA member she's interrogating spots the deception, and suddenly launches a physical attack. Such a ploy worked for Logain against Demandred, even though Demandred is a far more accomplished "physical fighter" than Elayne even dreams of being.

2. The BA member decides to defect to the Light, and bring a dead Chosen as a peace offering with her. Therefor, she suddenly sticks a knife into Elayne's throat.
Where the hell would this knife come from?

As for point 1, the chances of someone who's not trained in unarmed combat and is used to doing everything with the One Power, to do any harm to an alert channneller holding the Source and watching her every move, are extremely, extremely low.

Everyone in this series takes way bigger risks all the time and nobody complain. It would've been extremely boring epic fantasy series otherwise, nobody doing anything remotely risky, Why is this particular incident brought up so often?

GonzoTheGreat
02-23-2013, 07:42 AM
In part, because Elayne was very deliberately discarding whole bunches of safety procedures in order to pull this off. To manage that without being talked out of it she deliberately did not discuss it with those whose job it was to protect her from that kind of danger.

The issue is not "deliberately doing something risky", the issue is "deliberately doing something stupidly risky" just because you're feeling overprotected (http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/britneyspears/overprotected.html).

fionwe1987
02-23-2013, 10:36 AM
Just for starters: entering a cell with a dangerous prisoner on your own, with no one to back you up, is not a negligible risk.
Any backup would have meant the deception would have failed. The Foresaken never have backup.
Two scenarios in which she could have found herself in big trouble, even without rescue:

1. The BA member she's interrogating spots the deception, and suddenly launches a physical attack. Such a ploy worked for Logain against Demandred, even though Demandred is a far more accomplished "physical fighter" than Elayne even dreams of being.
The only thing the BA member would be able to use is her hands. And Chesmal is no Karate expert as far as I know.

And Chesmal did spot the deception, and Elayne saw her doubt, and if things hadn't gone south at that moment, she'd have been well prepared to handle it.

2. The BA member decides to defect to the Light, and bring a dead Chosen as a peace offering with her. Therefor, she suddenly sticks a knife into Elayne's throat.
I didn't know Chesmal had magical powers to summon a knife from thin air.

And Elayne should have known that she could not fully trust Min's viewing, because no one could quite remember what it was, precisely. While it did guarantee the safe 'birth' of her children, it did not guarantee the safety of the mother, or that of her country.

Very true. But the safety of both her own self and her country was at stake here anyway. Not knowing what the Darkfriends had been plotting assured that.

GonzoTheGreat
02-23-2013, 11:03 AM
There were hundreds of other AS. True, some were also BA. But that's a risk Elayne had to take anyway. She could have delegated this to someone else, rather than trying herself.
If nothing else, she could have exposed those BA to Mat, who has a tendency to excite AS into not very well thought out actions and words. She had a tame ta'veren available, but she did not even think of using him.

Tollingtoy
02-23-2013, 10:51 PM
In New Spring, after Lan kills Ryne, Moiraine says

"It seems Ryne was wrong as well as a Darkfriend. You were better than he."

Lan replies "He was better. But he thought I was finished, with only one arm. He never understood. You surrender after you're dead"


Definitely reminiscent of Lan's battle with Demandred

Bane Darkwulf
02-25-2013, 09:58 PM
Boot knife, boot laces, punching Elayne's sorry ass in the throat, undergarments taken off to choke her out, loose rock dug out of the ground to the head, overlooked eating utensil, manacle chain, boot, and, depending on how much she cared about personal comfort, anything she could hide in, shall we say, "dainty" places.

Just because she was Shielded doesn't mean she was helpless. This is someone whom sold her soul to the Dark One. Not hard for someone with true mayhem on their mind t find a weapon. It just takes a little imagination.

Terez
02-25-2013, 10:46 PM
In New Spring, after Lan kills Ryne, Moiraine says

"It seems Ryne was wrong as well as a Darkfriend. You were better than he."

Lan replies "He was better. But he thought I was finished, with only one arm. He never understood. You surrender after you're dead"

Definitely reminiscent of Lan's battle with Demandred
I noted that one in my OP.