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Davian93
01-17-2013, 06:48 PM
This thread was broken out of the original Errors thread and it has to do with Tam's reputation as a military commander and a possible error between KOD and aMoL.




Where did Tam get his battle experience? Arganda thought, thinking of the times he'd seen Tam fight. Arganda had known seasoned generals with far less sense of the battlefield than this sheepherder.

However, we know from KOD that Arganda was fully aware of Tam's past as 2nd Captain of the Companions (a position probably comparable to that of a Banner General)


TITLE: Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 29 - The Last Knot
"I studied them, my Lord," Tam said dryly. Of course he would have. "It looks a good plan to me. As good as any till the arrows start flying." Arganda put a booted foot in his roan's stirrup. "So long as he's your First Captain, my Lord, I have no objections." He had offered plenty earlier. Neither he nor Gallenne had been pleased that Perrin was putting someone over them. From up the slope came a black-winged mocker's shrill cry of alarm. Only one. If it had been a real bird, the call would have been repeated.

Arganda is okay with the plan because the legendary Tam al'Thor signed off on it and was leading it. As a leader of the military of a nearby southern nation, he was well aware of Tam's background.

Its little things like this that are really annoying.

Ishara
01-17-2013, 09:27 PM
Well, were they displeased that someone was being placed over them, or that Tam was? I lean towards a straight interpretation, myself. Meaning, they objected to not being leaders on principle, as opposed to objecting to anyone in particular being placed above them...

Davian93
01-17-2013, 09:30 PM
Well, were they displaced that someone was being placed over them, or that Tam was? I lean towards a straight interpretation, myself. Meaning, they objected to not being leaders on principle, as opposed to objecting to anyone in particular being placed above them...

The key part of it is that they were suddenly okay with the plan...as long as Tam led it. They had a bunch of issues when it was Perrin's plan but once Tam approved, they fell in line. You can also infer that Perrin had probably earlier said "And my First Captain will be leading you" to which they objected but stopped when Perrin introduces Tam al'Thor as his First Captain. Its pretty clear that they knew who he was.

Dom
01-17-2013, 10:31 PM
Well, were they displaced that someone was being placed over them, or that Tam was? I lean towards a straight interpretation, myself. Meaning, they objected to not being leaders on principle, as opposed to objecting to anyone in particular being placed above them...

The larger implied context was that Perrin had told them he got himself a First Captain. They were none too happy - it meant their Lord has picked a Commander to place over them and they made objections to Perrin's battle plan, until that quoted scene when Tam arrives by gateway and joins their meeting. When Perrin introduced Tam as his FC, the commanders who knew him by reputation stopped altogether to object to anything.

And one has to remember that Arganda rarely didn't argue, object or complaint before Tam was named First Captain.

Terez
01-17-2013, 10:40 PM
The key part of it is that they were suddenly okay with the plan...as long as Tam led it.
That's not how I read it at all. They objected to the plan until Tam actually showed up, at which point they had the wisdom/manners not to object in front of him. I don't think Tam is quite that widely known. Marcolin, the current First Captain of the Commanders (assuming he survived), remembers him because he served under him when Tam was Second Captain. I think that's the only person in the entire series that we know of who remembered Tam.

Davian93
01-18-2013, 08:07 AM
That's not how I read it at all. They objected to the plan until Tam actually showed up, at which point they had the wisdom/manners not to object in front of him. I don't think Tam is quite that widely known. Marcolin, the current First Captain of the Commanders (assuming he survived), remembers him because he served under him when Tam was Second Captain. I think that's the only person in the entire series that we know of who remembered Tam.

That's the only one that openly mentioned it...but Tam was a very high ranking officer in an elite force involved in several major wars. That scenes very heavily implies that Arganda and possibly Gallene knew him by reputation if nothing else.

If anything, if he were just a random sheepherder (as far as they knew) they'd likely object even more upon meeting him. If they had no issues objecting to Perrin, why does Tam being there suddenly make it okay. Its not as if Nobles and officers like that have a very high opinion of commoners. They wouldn't care about offending him.

GonzoTheGreat
01-18-2013, 09:41 AM
Which is why I think that his being named a Lord was not so much for the sake of his dealing with Perrin's army, as it was for the sake of dealing with other armies/leaders. If they'd encountered a bunch of Seanchan, for instance, then Tam the sheepherder wouldn't have been someone their officer felt he could deal with. But Lord Tam, father of the Dragon Reborn, would be a whole different matter.

Dom
01-18-2013, 09:43 AM
Its not as if Nobles and officers like that have a very high opinion of commoners. They wouldn't care about offending him.

No more than they did with Perrin for sure.

Arganda never liked her Queen's decision. He was the commander of experience in that group, and was always arrogant and argumentative. Perrin was never sure Arganda would do what he was asked.

And it's this guy who but heard Tam's name and suddenly defer to his opinion. Tam did nothing to prove himself or anything. He looked at the plans and said they were good.

That was a turning point for Arganda. When he unveiled his First Captain that was it. Arganda didn't see anymore a country upstart his Queen had dangerously embroiled herself in, not with that man serving him as First Captain.

It's not surprising Tam has a reputation with some southern veteran officers. Not only Arganda seemed to know Tam was an high officier of the Companions and knew his way to fight Aiel, but Arganda would also know him as a veteran of the Whitecloak War in which the Companions faced the Great Captain Pedron Niall.

That Tam was not a complete unknown in military circles was hinted at in TGH. Moiraine found out Tam's background.

Davian93
01-18-2013, 10:13 AM
Exactly and its not as if Moiraine could go google his name. She would have had to read reports/books on those wars to know that information or spoken to veterans involved in the Bloodsnow/Aiel War/Whitecloak wars, etc. And Tam would have had to have been fairly prominent in those notes for him to be mentioned being as he's not a major Lord, etc but rather a foreigner who became 2nd Captain and a blademaster.

GonzoTheGreat
01-18-2013, 10:32 AM
And Tam would have had to have been fairly prominent in those notes for him to be mentioned being as he's not a major Lord, etc but rather a foreigner who became 2nd Captain and a blademaster.
Which, of course, is far too common to merit any mention at all. Foreign commoners become 2nd Captain and blademaster the whole time, and every single one of them found a babe in the snow on Dragonmount too. That's precisely why it took Moiraine so long.

Terez
01-18-2013, 11:49 AM
That's the only one that openly mentioned it...but Tam was a very high ranking officer in an elite force involved in several major wars. That scenes very heavily implies that Arganda and possibly Gallene knew him by reputation if nothing else.
I still don't think it implies that at all. Once the decision was made and Tam was given charge, there was no more reason to object.

Ishara
01-18-2013, 12:04 PM
We're still talking about the scenes in aMoL, right? Because by then, both Gallene and Arganda have had a chance to see Tam in action as a leader, so they shopuldn't have objections.

I don't agree that either one knew who Tam was over 20 years ago. They would have been common soldiers or at best very junior officers at that time, and knowing the leaders of other armies who aren't on your borders isn't exactly high on the list when you look at Mat's men in the same positions. It's just not realistic.

They also haven't had the time to research (nor the inclination or resources to do so) since the met him.

Terez
01-18-2013, 12:16 PM
We're still talking about the scenes in aMoL, right?
I was talking about the scene in KOD. In either case this discussion is getting a bit long for the errors thread; Maria will have to sort through this whole thread later to get her list of errors. (I'd volunteer to do it for her, but I suspect she would do it herself anyway just to make sure she doesn't miss anything.)

Davian93
01-18-2013, 12:43 PM
I was talking about the scene in KOD. In either case this discussion is getting a bit long for the errors thread; Maria will have to sort through this whole thread later to get her list of errors. (I'd volunteer to do it for her, but I suspect she would do it herself anyway just to make sure she doesn't miss anything.)

I'd be okay with one of the Superfriends breaking it off into its own thread...while leaving the initial post I made on the subject.

Terez
01-18-2013, 12:46 PM
I'd be okay with one of the Superfriends breaking it off into its own thread...while leaving the initial post I made on the subject.
And my response at #152.

Davian93
01-18-2013, 12:50 PM
And my response at #152.

Though its pretty evident from context that his reputation precedes him.

Terez
01-18-2013, 12:52 PM
Though its pretty evident from context that his reputation precedes him.
That's your opinion. I disagree with it. If we're going to leave your objection, then we need to leave a response too. Maria can make up her mind from there.

Davian93
01-18-2013, 12:53 PM
That's your opinion. I disagree with it. If we're going to leave your objection, then we need to leave a response too. Maria can make up her mind from there.

In that scenario, I propose leaving Dom's response as well then.

Terez
01-18-2013, 12:55 PM
At #151? I'm fine with that.

Davian93
01-18-2013, 12:55 PM
At #151? I'm fine with that.

Yup, that's the one.

Marie Curie 7
01-18-2013, 02:04 PM
Since this discussion is its own thread now, Davian, you might want to edit the OP to include only the Tam stuff. Thanks.

metaphor
01-18-2013, 09:11 PM
We're still talking about the scenes in aMoL, right? Because by then, both Gallene and Arganda have had a chance to see Tam in action as a leader, so they shopuldn't have objections.

I don't agree that either one knew who Tam was over 20 years ago. They would have been common soldiers or at best very junior officers at that time, and knowing the leaders of other armies who aren't on your borders isn't exactly high on the list when you look at Mat's men in the same positions. It's just not realistic.

They also haven't had the time to research (nor the inclination or resources to do so) since the met him.


However, there weren't many people in the same position as Tam, 12, 13 at most. Tam was a commoner who quickly rose through the ranks and became a blademaster. He must have been brilliant, and a young talent everyone talked about.
Furthermore he served during the Aiel wars, where the western nations were allied, so even young officers had reason to know of him and the exploits that he certainly had.
There are probably songs about him.

GonzoTheGreat
01-19-2013, 03:25 AM
Arganda is okay with the plan because the legendary Tam al'Thor signed off on it and was leading it. As a leader of the military of a nearby southern nation, he was well aware of Tam's background.
Is there actual evidence that Arganda did know about Tam's military past?
It is also possible that he objected to having some sheepherder put above him, until he found out that that particular sheepherder was Rand's father. At that point, accepting the situation was by far the noblest* thing to do.

* Ie. the approach most nobles would pick. Just as the Roman Senators once accepted Nero's horse as one of them; at least as long as Nero lived.

Davian93
01-19-2013, 08:41 AM
Is there actual evidence that Arganda did know about Tam's military past?
It is also possible that he objected to having some sheepherder put above him, until he found out that that particular sheepherder was Rand's father. At that point, accepting the situation was by far the noblest* thing to do.

* Ie. the approach most nobles would pick. Just as the Roman Senators once accepted Nero's horse as one of them; at least as long as Nero lived.

So they'd object repeatedly to Perrin, Rand's childhood friend (and incidently Arganda's Queen's liege lord) but not to Tam?

Dont buy it. It also wouldnt fit with the "Oh, he's leading the attack?, Okay lets do it" comment.