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GonzoTheGreat
01-19-2013, 11:23 AM
For this discussion, I don't see what use AMoL would be. On the other hand, it definitely wouldn't hurt to take it into account either, so I've placed it in this Forum anyway.

My question is: how did anyone come up with the trick?

Did someone try having 7 Dreadlords channel through 7 goats at a captive channeler, and notice that nothing happened?
Did that someone then try with 14 Dreadlords and 14 Draghkar, still without result?
Was the next failed attempt with 17 Dreadlords and 17 Myrddraal?
Was it when he tried 8 Dreadlords, 4 Trollocs and a gholam that someone remarked "we don't even know what weave to use, or what it should do if it works"?

How did anyone figure out the correct way of doing this?
Now that I think about it, it does seem a bit unlikely to ever come about.

Mort
01-19-2013, 12:20 PM
Kinda like every other fantasy gimmick. For example like LoTR and the ring. How would they know the ring is destroyed if it is thrown back into Mount Doom? How often does it happen that someone creates a powerful object that needs to be unmade? :)

Dom
01-19-2013, 12:47 PM
For this discussion, I don't see what use AMoL would be. On the other hand, it definitely wouldn't hurt to take it into account either, so I've placed it in this Forum anyway.

My question is: how did anyone come up with the trick?

Did someone try having 7 Dreadlords channel through 7 goats at a captive channeler, and notice that nothing happened?
Did that someone then try with 14 Dreadlords and 14 Draghkar, still without result?
Was the next failed attempt with 17 Dreadlords and 17 Myrddraal?
Was it when he tried 8 Dreadlords, 4 Trollocs and a gholam that someone remarked "we don't even know what weave to use, or what it should do if it works"?

How did anyone figure out the correct way of doing this?
Now that I think about it, it does seem a bit unlikely to ever come about.

We've been told Semirhage discovered that trick while experimenting with Myrddraal. I think it's in her LOC POV, but I'm not sure. She said she still preferred to condition people on her own through torture. I guess she tried to channel through a Myrddraal as a filter/corruptor to see what it did to people, and realized it had an effect, and then she increased the number of channelers and Myrddraal to see it augmented the effect and ended up finding with enough of them it could break a channeler's will and turn them to the Shadow. IMO, it involves breaking them to the point their only relief/escape is the True Power, which they don't get use of, but become able to sense/touch, if they place themselves in that cold, death-like state required for that. It conditions them to remain forever in that cold, inhuman state Rand found himself in in TGS. I think it's why it works only on channelers: it involves that type of "Oneness" and sensing the TP, Shai'tan,s power. Existing permanently in that state to feel Shai'tan would explain the change in personality, the dead eyes, the compulsion to serve the Great Lord not to lose that boon etc. It would also explain why it involves breaking will - people like Logain fought badly before being in the inhuman state and reaching for the TP to save themselves (Logain himself never broke). It also would explain the changes in Logain, very similar to Rand's "darkness", as Logain never reached the stage when allegiance switched, when Shai'tan became the only relief existing. He hates the Shadow viscerally, like was always the case with Rand, but like him his personality darkened badly. Cadsuane or others are probably gonna have eventually to make him go through a cathartic process/epiphany to exorcise all this.

fdsaf3
01-19-2013, 12:53 PM
A few guesses.

1. The Dark One told (or somehow conveyed) it was possible to the Chosen.

2. Aginor figured it out when he was creating Trollocs.

3. Maybe someone thought to themselves "well, 13 is the limit for a circle of only women, so maybe there's something special about that number. Also, Myrddraal are out of phase with reality, so that's weird. Hm. Maybe there's some connection there we can exploit..."

It's not that much of a stretch. I mean, most scientific discoveries, in retrospect, don't make much sense. It's a crazy idea that just might work...and ends up working.

4. Maybe we've been mislead. What I mean is that mixed circles haven't been explored all that much in the series. Since we're talking about Dreadlords and not Light followers, it's possible that if you use 20 channelers instead of 13 it's faster. On the other hand, Lanfear mentions in aMoL that the problem in breaking Logain was that Taim was using male channelers - if he had been using female, Logain would have been broken much easier.

I lost my train of thought. It was something to do with how the best results when channeling the One Power come from men and women working together, then extrapolating that to Turning. Something along those lines, anyway.

Enigma
01-19-2013, 12:54 PM
There are a lot of inventions that seem unlikely when you first look at them but came from trial and error. The 13 x 13 trick was done during the AoL where the forsaken came from an era where people experemented and tried out new things. I doubt Semirhage sat down one day and came us with the exact combination to make it work but how often have we seen the forsaken comment on not understanding fades. I could be wrong but I think one of the forsaken said that even their maker (sort of) Aginor did not understand how they could move between shadows and tested several of them to destruction but never found out how it worked.

So the forsaken, some of whome have a scientific or medical background are presented with these new creatures that have the Dark One's touch about them. I don't think its too much of a stretch for one of the forsaken to wonder what would happen if they channelled the One Power at a person but filtered through a fade, being one of the shadowspawn where the Dark One's power/touch is readily apparant.

If you have several thousand minions who can carry out your orders, and an unlimited supply of test subjects, its not that hard to imagine they stumbling on the method.

DeiwosTheSkyGod
01-19-2013, 03:58 PM
Is it ever specified what kind of weaves they're channeling through the Fades? I know they said that male channeling works better on females and vice versa, so is each channeler working individually? (I mean, no one links.)

Rand al'Fain
01-19-2013, 04:40 PM
Is it ever specified what kind of weaves they're channeling through the Fades? I know they said that male channeling works better on females and vice versa, so is each channeler working individually? (I mean, no one links.)

I'd assume so, since you would have to channel through each Myrrdraal seprately.

Dom
01-19-2013, 06:12 PM
Is it ever specified what kind of weaves they're channeling through the Fades? I know they said that male channeling works better on females and vice versa, so is each channeler working individually? (I mean, no one links.)

We'd long assumed it was a circle of channelers, but AMOL proved that wrong.