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Fourth Age Historian
01-20-2013, 08:11 PM
Do we know why some of the Forsaken who could have been recycled were not recycled?

Sammael died by Mashadar. RJ repeatedly said he won't be back, can't be reincarnated. Did he ever say why? Was his soul captured by Mashadar rather than released for the DO to place in a new body? Is it that simple?

Brandon also said that the Dark One would have liked very much to transmigrate Sammael but didn't. Apparently, since he died by Mashadar, Sammael was either unable to be transmigrated or it would have been a very bad idea. Basically, Mashadar tainted Sammael's thread somehow.
Answered my own question. Thought I'd leave it there though...

Aginor/Osan'gar was frankly one of the more competent Forsaken. He was bested at the Eye while not in top form, but his time as Dashiva was not badly spent for the Shadow, and he had a real chance to kill Rand. Any ideas why he wasn't reincarnated again? DO run out of patience? Not enough time before TG?

Mesaana what gives here? No one wanted to kill her dead and get her back for TG?

Zombie Sammael
01-20-2013, 08:25 PM
There are some insightful quotes in the interview database about this. Basically, recycling a Forsaken isn't easy: the DO has to catch the soul at just the right time, then have a suitable body available, and have a reason to do it. The DO views death as failure, remember, like the other Forsaken, and Moridin, Cyndane, and Hessalam were all reincarnated as punishments. I expect the reasoning behind not reviving Osan'gar was that he had "failed" twice by dying, and that there was no suitable body to hand. It took months for him to revive Aginor, Balthamel, and Ishamael the first time. I expect the only body he may have had to hand at the time Osan'gar died would have been Hessalam's, and I doubt he'd have regarded it as suitable for Osan'gar, who was more successful and did not deserve to be shoved into an ugly body of the wrong gender.

Terez
01-20-2013, 08:25 PM
Aginor/Osan'gar was frankly one of the more competent Forsaken. He was bested at the Eye while not in top form, but his time as Dashiva was not badly spent for the Shadow, and he had a real chance to kill Rand. Any ideas why he wasn't reincarnated again? DO run out of patience? Not enough time before TG?
Aginor was not really all that useful; most of his skills were useless in the Third Age; he was more theory than practice. His lack of stealthiness is what got him killed.

Mesaana what gives here? No one wanted to kill her dead and get her back for TG?
She was always kind of meh. She failed by not showing up for the Cleansing, she failed when the Black Ajah got ran out of the Tower, and she failed in the follow-up too. She got beaten by a teenage girl, because despite knowing she didn't have any real Talent for the Dream, she met Egwene in Egwene's territory because she was arrogant and stupid. Not suited for research, or much of anything else aside from building domino towers.

Fourth Age Historian
01-20-2013, 08:33 PM
Yeah, Mesaana was pretty useless, wasn't she? And I guess on top of failing all those times she was also broken with ludicrous ease. I can see how with one suitable body available (Hessalam) the DO would make the choice he did. I suppose the value of one or two more channelers, who had largely failed to that point, for TG was not extremely high unless they had other assets to bring with them.

Does anyone know if he can re-use souls while fully sealed away? In other words, could he loosen some of the Chosen back into the world during the Fourth Age, despite his inability to directly touch the world?

Davian93
01-20-2013, 08:40 PM
Yeah, Mesaana was pretty useless, wasn't she? And I guess on top of failing all those times she was also broken with ludicrous ease. I can see how with one suitable body available (Hessalam) the DO would make the choice he did. I suppose the value of one or two more channelers, who had largely failed to that point, for TG was not extremely high unless they had other assets to bring with them.

Does anyone know if he can re-use souls while fully sealed away? In other words, could he loosen some of the Chosen back into the world during the Fourth Age, despite his inability to directly touch the world?

I would guess that no, no he would not be able to.

Ieyasu
01-20-2013, 08:55 PM
She was always kind of meh. She failed by not showing up for the Cleansing, she failed when the Black Ajah got ran out of the Tower, and she failed in the follow-up too. She got beaten by a teenage girl, because despite knowing she didn't have any real Talent for the Dream, she met Egwene in Egwene's territory because she was arrogant and stupid. Not suited for research, or much of anything else aside from building domino towers.

I do not recall offhand, but is she even dead? The Dark One couldnt transmitigate her soul if they kept her alive as the drooling idiot she was turned into... unless Egwene had her executed after they found her soiling herself....

Davian93
01-20-2013, 09:00 PM
I do not recall offhand, but is she even dead? The Dark One couldnt transmitigate her soul if they kept her alive as the drooling idiot she was turned into... unless Egwene had her executed after they found her soiling herself....

As far as we know, she's still alive. Though I'd imagine it wouldnt be that hard to send a couple Grey Men in to kill her off...or just Slayer, if the DO really wanted to transmigrate her.

Though I suppose her brain breaking might not be fixable even with transmigration.

Fourth Age Historian
01-20-2013, 09:02 PM
I do not recall offhand, but is she even dead? The Dark One couldnt transmitigate her soul if they kept her alive as the drooling idiot she was turned into... unless Egwene had her executed after they found her soiling herself....

I don't think she WAS dead, but I thought someone could have killed her specifically to get her a new body.

Then again, with the BA purged from the Tower, and the rest of the surviving Forsaken otherwise occupied, perhaps there was simply no one available to take the risk of popping into the WT and performing a task with questionable reward.

Davian93
01-20-2013, 09:16 PM
I don't think she WAS dead, but I thought someone could have killed her specifically to get her a new body.

Then again, with the BA purged from the Tower, and the rest of the surviving Forsaken otherwise occupied, perhaps there was simply no one available to take the risk of popping into the WT and performing a task with questionable reward.

Slayer could have pretty easily done it...had they wanted it done.

The real question is "Would transmigrating her soul fix her brain?"

Davian93
01-20-2013, 09:30 PM
This interview quote is relevant:


INTERVIEW: Jan 10th, 2011
Tor Q&A with Brandon Sanderson (Verbatim)

ANDREW B: In Towers of Midnight's glossary, it is noted that Mesaana is destroyed (as opposed to Asmodean and Aran'gar who are noted to have been killed). If the Aes Sedai were to execute Mesaana, would the Dark One be able to put Mesaana's soul in another body? Or since her mind was destroyed, is Mesaana's soul permanently damaged?

BRANDON SANDERSON: 
Nobody's soul gets permanently damaged in that way in the Wheel of Time. Whether the Dark One can recover her and transmigrate her soul or not is a RAFO.

Alec
01-20-2013, 11:49 PM
Aginor was not really all that useful; most of his skills were useless in the Third Age; he was more theory than practice. His lack of stealthiness is what got him killed.


She was always kind of meh. She failed by not showing up for the Cleansing, she failed when the Black Ajah got ran out of the Tower, and she failed in the follow-up too. She got beaten by a teenage girl, because despite knowing she didn't have any real Talent for the Dream, she met Egwene in Egwene's territory because she was arrogant and stupid. Not suited for research, or much of anything else aside from building domino towers.

IIRC she had some kind of legitimate plan that Graendel/Slayer ruined with their dreamspike. Didn't Moridin even say that it was Graendel's fault that Messana failed?

I always thought one of the disappointments of the series was how inept the "Chosen" are after they get built up to be super dangerous.

Terez
01-21-2013, 12:54 AM
Shaidar Haran did accuse Graendal of aiding in Mesaana's death, but it was still stupid of her to confront Egwene on her own territory, and the dreamspike didn't make escape impossible. Just more difficult.

Also, that was kind of the point with the Forsaken. They were only human after all; their hype was mostly just legend.

Rand al'Fain
01-21-2013, 02:16 AM
Shaidar Haran did accuse Graendal of aiding in Mesaana's death, but it was still stupid of her to confront Egwene on her own territory, and the dreamspike didn't make escape impossible. Just more difficult.

Also, that was kind of the point with the Forsaken. They were only human after all; their hype was mostly just legend.

Well, Moridin/Ishamael kept up his end of the bargain (Trolloc Wars and 100 Years War). And Damodred, up until Merrilor, did as well (taking over the Sharans and building up a massive army to invade Randland).

Terez
01-21-2013, 02:47 AM
Some humans are more impressive than others.

GonzoTheGreat
01-21-2013, 06:09 AM
Well, Moridin/Ishamael kept up his end of the bargain (Trolloc Wars and 100 Years War). And Damodred, up until Merrilor, did as well (taking over the Sharans and building up a massive army to invade Randland).
Yeah, but then Damodred went up against Demandred, and ... :p

Dom
01-21-2013, 07:03 AM
As Terez pointed out, Mesaana was mostly good at building towers of dominoes.

She took her time, enjoyed her games at the WT way too much, made big promises and ultimately didn't deliver anything. Instead of a Tower broken down to seven Ajah, unable to work together anymore and the Ajah themselves divided in two or three factions, the BA infiltrated and ready to take out key sisters and destroy the leaders on the eve of TG before fleeing, Mesaana ruined it all. A serious percentage of the BA was taken out, and Mesaana lost others in her revenge against Egwene. The Ajah re united as something stronger, sobered up about internal divisions and much better lead than the WT was at the beginning of the series.

There's really little reason for Shai'tan to bother with attempts to kill Mesaana to seize her soul. She's cost the Shadow enough already, thank you.

Osan'gar proved himself inept and weak, a broken tool - even his knowledge failed him. He was near Rand and didn't manage to contribute anything for the Cleansing. Shai'tan ended up giving Taim himself the tasks he probably meant Osan'gar to take over eventually. Aginor had been terribly important and one of the most succesful Chosen in the WOS by creating the Shadowspawn, but in the Third Age he was simply out of his depths.

maacaroni
01-21-2013, 08:07 AM
I think the order of dying in the series displayed the relative effectiveness of the Forsaken. Ol' Lanfear was probably the most effective of all.

Terez
01-21-2013, 11:45 AM
Aside from Moridin, who never really died... ;)

GonzoTheGreat
01-21-2013, 11:53 AM
Old Moridins never die, they just fade away.

Cortar
01-21-2013, 12:19 PM
As Terez pointed out, Mesaana was mostly good at building towers of dominoes.

She took her time, enjoyed her games at the WT way too much, made big promises and ultimately didn't deliver anything. Instead of a Tower broken down to seven Ajah, unable to work together anymore and the Ajah themselves divided in two or three factions, the BA infiltrated and ready to take out key sisters and destroy the leaders on the eve of TG before fleeing, Mesaana ruined it all. A serious percentage of the BA was taken out, and Mesaana lost others in her revenge against Egwene. The Ajah re united as something stronger, sobered up about internal divisions and much better lead than the WT was at the beginning of the series.

There's really little reason for Shai'tan to bother with attempts to kill Mesaana to seize her soul. She's cost the Shadow enough already, thank you.


Well if Verin didn't double cross the Shadow there wouldn't have been the great purge and how can anyone expect Messana of all people to stop THAT.

Also she very nearly did break the Tower in half. She should have just found a way to have Egwene killed instead of letting her live during her captivity.

GonzoTheGreat
01-21-2013, 12:57 PM
Also she very nearly did break the Tower in half. She should have just found a way to have Egwene killed instead of letting her live during her captivity.
If she had had both Egwene and Elaida killed, then the resulting chaos would have fractured the AS into warring factions. Instead, she tried to gain control by being the power behind the throne in an organisation that had thousands of years of experience of both being and having powers behind the throne. Like trying to control the Roman Catholic Church by preaching from the Bible, and thinking no one else ever came up with that idea.

Davian93
01-21-2013, 04:02 PM
A very good point...it would have been far easier to just have both of them killed and have Sheriam and Alviarin installed as rival Amyrlins. It would have been easy to do and it makes no sense why she didnt go that route

Enigma
01-21-2013, 05:20 PM
Given how late in the day Mesaana's death came did the DO need her? The Last Battle was just around the corner. The DO needed a champion to take on Rand - check Moridin. He needed a skilled general to lead his armies- check Demandred. - He needed someone skilled with subtle compulsion to nudge the great captains in the right direction - check he has Granedal. After that he has got Taim to act as an aid for Demandred and he's got Moggy and Lanfear to run errands. Sure another forsaken could always been used but Mesaana seemed to work best from the background and given time.

If it happened earlier in the series I could see the DO sending someone to kill her so she can be recycled but that close to the end game he may have decided that he simply didn't need her.

Alec
01-21-2013, 07:44 PM
Shaidar Haran did accuse Graendal of aiding in Mesaana's death, but it was still stupid of her to confront Egwene on her own territory, and the dreamspike didn't make escape impossible. Just more difficult.

Also, that was kind of the point with the Forsaken. They were only human after all; their hype was mostly just legend.

They were still the elite Chosen of the shadow, so I expected more from them. I mean ffs Moghedien and Asmodean probably helped the good guys more than most of the people who actually tried to be good.

Weiramon
01-22-2013, 02:42 AM
Burn my soul, that's ridiculous.