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Cortar
01-21-2013, 02:54 AM
Hope the title isn't spoilerish....

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So with the whole "3/5ths compromise" thing, where Damane have to be set free if they want... Doesn't that mean that Moggy and a certain Amyrlin could come back to their freedom?

And what would happen to Elaida and the Amyrlin. I mean, was she ever OFFICIALLY sacked?

fionwe1987
01-21-2013, 02:58 AM
It is a deep irony that Egwene's last political act might bring freedom to Elaida, Moghedien and Liandrin. Not that I think it would make any difference to her stance. She's still right, and it was still a fantastic deal.

As for Elaida: I think when Egwene was raised, Elaida was pretty much superseded. The Hall did admit that they were electing a new Amyrlin because Elaida was captured and presumed dead, with no hope of rescue. I suspect the wording of their vote in the Hall took into account the possibility that Elaida was alive.

Plus, I would hope Elaida is chastened enough not to go make a fuss about it. And if she does, she'll be making the fuss to Cadsuane, who'll probably make her wish she was a damane again.

GonzoTheGreat
01-21-2013, 06:11 AM
The Seanchan might sort of get around that one by not letting the damane know that they can formally request freedom.

I do wonder what the reaction would be if anyone recognised Moghedien. What would they then do with her?

ShadowbaneX
01-21-2013, 09:23 AM
I'm fairly sure that agreement kinda broke off half-way through...and I'm fairly certain with Egwene gone and not having ratified it with the Hall that the entire thing is moot.

GonzoTheGreat
01-21-2013, 09:41 AM
Then again, I'm also sure that the Seanchan would be willing to let the White Tower send a delegation to continue the negotiations. Then, if they're successful, that delegation will be allowed to leave if they so choose.

eht slat meit
01-21-2013, 10:23 AM
I do wonder what the reaction would be if anyone recognised Moghedien. What would they then do with her?

Being the ruthlessly practical Seanchan that they are, I suspect they'd first use the a'dam to get every practical piece of information they can get out of her, and then execute her.

I'm guessing, however, that as she's in her element, a position of power, political turmoil and subject to a ruthless entity, she was meant to take advantage, escape and become a foil to Mat and Tuon.

Dom
01-21-2013, 10:33 AM
Answering a question about Elaida and if she'd ever learned how badly she's interpreted her foretellings, Brandon hinted that we maybe we might see some of that if the outriggers were written (which they won't be).

It suggests Elaida is meant to remain a damane.

Like most of the captured AS, she'll probably be broken by the time any post-TG agreement, assuming the new WT leadership don't rescind them, gets enacted.

As for Moghedien, she's much better as a damane. If she gains freedom according to the Seanchan deal, she's facing a public spanking by the new Amyrlin then execution.

With her AOL knowledge she's also a priceless catch for Tuon (if they ever realize who she is!) and der'sul'dam won't be amateurs with an a'dam like Elayne/Nynave/Egwene, so it's extremely doubtful the Seanchan would ever consider freeing her anyway. Let's just say Moghedien's better hope the so-called immortality of the DO is just a sham/promise of transmigration - or that she'll get herself killed in battle fast (but if her identity is discovered, they won't risk her on the field. And she is probably too dangerous a damane for the Empress not to make her one of her personal and exclusive damane).

If they never find out who she is, they might soon build her a little cart to roll her to the frontline, it will be less trouble than dragging her sobbing and screeching every time.

Brita
01-21-2013, 10:35 AM
I'm fairly sure that agreement kinda broke off half-way through...and I'm fairly certain with Egwene gone and not having ratified it with the Hall that the entire thing is moot.

Yes, the whole "solution" to a'dam problem was very unsubstantial, even more so with Egwene gone. Tuon has already made it clear that she doesn't feel the Empress (may she live forever) is bound by any agreement that she feels does not benefit the Empire. It would have been wonderful to have the follow up to this story line in order to obtain a reasonable conclusion to the a'dam issue- but alas!

I was really rooting for Egwene to master the a'dam and learn how to defeat it while collared...oh well.

ShadowbaneX
01-21-2013, 10:47 AM
Well, as a tangent, Egwene & Moghedien are two of the best ones to break the a'dam...or perhaps more specifically the sul'dam. You can collar a woman, but you cannot prevent her from Dreaming and as we know there's a whole 'nother battlefield that the Seanchan are completely unable to fight on.

Dom
01-21-2013, 10:53 AM
Well, as a tangent, Egwene & Moghedien are two of the best ones to break the a'dam...or perhaps more specifically the sul'dam. You can collar a woman, but you cannot prevent her from Dreaming

You mean dreamwalking?

We don't know that for sure, actually. Elayne, Egwene, Nynaeve never expressed any fear Moghedien could use TAR during her captivity. It looks like RJ forgot to include a mention they found out the a'dam prevented entry to TAR (could be similar to animals.. domesticated ones lose the ability to enter TAR).

ShadowbaneX
01-21-2013, 11:05 AM
Yeah, Dreamwalking. If Moggy was to be any sort of foil in the Seanchan books she'd have needed something to allow her to fight back and it would make sense that this would be it. If she would be incapable of Dreamwalking, well, that just makes things a little boring, perhaps contrived as there'd have to be a set up to get her released.

Additonally, Moggy's faced the a'dam already, so she's more familiar/aware of it, the shocks worn off slightly. It wouldn't be fun for her, not be any stretch of the imagination, but her prior experience might have worn enough of the shock off the situation that she would have a better chance of resisting being broken as the other damane are.

Ishara
01-21-2013, 11:10 AM
The Seanchan might sort of get around that one by not letting the damane know that they can formally request freedom.

I do wonder what the reaction would be if anyone recognised Moghedien. What would they then do with her?
LOL. I did wonder about that, Gonzo. Just because Tuon agreed to letting them go doesn't mean she would have to tell them she agreed, right? She is sort of sneaky like that.

Being the ruthlessly practical Seanchan that they are, I suspect they'd first use the a'dam to get every practical piece of information they can get out of her, and then execute her.

I'm guessing, however, that as she's in her element, a position of power, political turmoil and subject to a ruthless entity, she was meant to take advantage, escape and become a foil to Mat and Tuon.
It's been mentioned, but they would never execute her. She's so powerful and knowledgeable that they'd keep her forever. Safe and sound. Justice. :)

Dom
01-21-2013, 11:16 AM
Yeah, Dreamwalking. If Moggy was to be any sort of foil in the Seanchan books she'd have needed something to allow her to fight back and it would make sense that this would be it. If she would be incapable of Dreamwalking, well, that just makes things a little boring, perhaps contrived as there'd have to be a set up to get her released.

Additonally, Moggy's faced the a'dam already, so she's more familiar/aware of it, the shocks worn off slightly. It wouldn't be fun for her, not be any stretch of the imagination, but her prior experience might have worn enough of the shock off the situation that she would have a better chance of resisting being broken as the other damane are.

No doubt she'd resist, but she's in for very bad surprises too. The sul'dam/der'sul'dam are far more skilled and far less self-constrained with their use of the a'dam.

We'll never know if RJ planned or not to include Moghedien in his outriggers. He might not have known for sure himself. He gave her the same kind of ironic resolution he loved to give the villains (and some heroes alike). Moghedien got herself captured, then released only to be mindtrapped, then released from that only to end up in Seanchan hands. It seems likely Moghedien would have met that fate with or without outriggers in the works.

There was 5 to 10 years of off-screen developments to happen before that trilogy began. For all we know, RJ had no mind or definitive plans to re use Moghedien and would have dealt with her off-screen once the good joke he played on her in the main series had done the effect he wanted.

There's no evidence Moghedien used TAR during her Salidar captivity. It's been suggested she's not a Dreamer and must enter either with a weave of Spirit to just dream herself there, and at other times in the flesh.

It would be a good Q&A question for Maria.

ShadowbaneX
01-21-2013, 11:26 AM
I'm not so sure she would resist. She's been in some bad spots, the a'dam, the mind trap, etc. She knows what can be done to her, so she might go along with it as much as possible to preserve as much of herself as possible. Remember embracing sai'dar.

Also, and it's been a while since I've reread tGH, but I think there can be limited channeling done while collared, such as when she's in bed about to sleep which could be enough to reach T'A'R.

Anyway, it's pretty much redundant as these books aren't going to be done. Moggy's in position to be one of the major foils for those books should they have been written.

Dom
01-21-2013, 11:35 AM
I'm not so sure she would resist. She's been in some bad spots, the a'dam, the mind trap, etc. She knows what can be done to her, so she might go along with it as much as possible to preserve as much of herself as possible. Remember embracing sai'dar.

Also, and it's been a while since I've reread tGH, but I think there can be limited channeling done while collared, such as when she's in bed about to sleep which could be enough to reach T'A'R.

Anyway, it's pretty much redundant as these books aren't going to be done. Moggy's in position to be one of the major foils for those books should they have been written.

A damane can't touch the Source at all unless a sul'dam wears her bracelet.

Yeah, it's all a bit pointless in the context of the outriggers, but it would be interesting to get a confirmation from Maria the a'dam prevented Moghedien from using TAR. RJ left it all be "intuitively obvious" with the fact Nynaeve/Elayne knew of Moghedien's TAR skills but never worried she'd use TAR while captive.

GonzoTheGreat
01-21-2013, 11:35 AM
What about her mindtrap?
She had that hanging around her neck, but I'm not entirely sure that damane are allowed to keep their own jewelry.

Dom
01-21-2013, 11:39 AM
What about her mindtrap?
She had that hanging around her neck, but I'm not entirely sure that damane are allowed to keep their own jewelry.

She'd better hope her sul'dam doesn't break it by accident!

sleepinghour
01-21-2013, 11:57 AM
She'd better hope her sul'dam doesn't break it by accident!

They'll probably destroy it or at least confiscate it. They even burned Min's old clothes in TGH.

Egwene had had to watch her clothes being burned, too, including that lovely green silk. It had made her glad she had not brought more of the clothes the Lady Amalisa had given her, though she might never see any of them, or the White Tower, again. What she had on now was the same dark gray all damane wore. Damane have no possessions, it had been explained to her. The dress a damane wears, the food she eats, the bed she sleeps in, are all gifts from her sul’dam. If a sul’dam chooses that a damane sleep on the floor instead of in a bed, or in a stall in a stable, it is purely the choice of the sul’dam.

Dom
01-21-2013, 12:03 PM
They'll probably destroy it or at least confiscate it. They even burned Min's old clothes in TGH.

That's what I tend to think too, that the Seanchan will kill her without knowing what they're doing or she'll be forced to tell them what the mindtrap is to save her soul, in which case she's screwed. I don't think RJ necessarily planned to include Moghedien in the outriggers.

Ieyasu
01-21-2013, 12:21 PM
A damane can't touch the Source at all unless a sul'dam wears her bracelet.

Not true. in TGH Renna comes back in during a visit with Min, in which she cuts the visit short because Egwene has channeled while she was gone, which she seemed able to tell instantly upon putting on her bracelet.

EDIT:

The door swung open, and Renna stepped in.
Egwene jumped to her feet and bowed sharply, as did Min. The tiny room was crowded for bowing, but Seanchan insisted on protocol before comfort.
"Your visiting day, is it?"Renna said. "I had forgotten. Well, there is training to be done even on visiting days."
Egwene watched sharply as the sul'dam took down the bracelet, opened it, and fastened it again around her wrist. She could not see how it was done. If she could have probed with the One Power, she would have, but Renna would have known that immediately. As the bracelet closed around Renna's wrist, a look came onto the sul'dams face that made Egwene's heart sink.
"You have been channeling." Renna's voice was deceptively mild; there was a spark of anger in her eyes. "You know that is forbidden except when we are complete." Egwene wet her lips. "Perhaps I have been too lenient with you. Perhaps you believe that because you are valuable now, you will be allowed license. I think I made a mistake letting you keep your old name. I had a kitten called Tuli when I was a child. From now on, your name is Tuli. You will go now, Min. Your visiting day with Tuli is ended."

ShadowbaneX
01-21-2013, 12:47 PM
yeah, I was just coming to post this.
Egwene stood far back from the window. She did not want any of the women below to look up and see the glow that she knew surrounded her as she channeled the One Power, probing delicately at the collar around her neck, searching futilely; she could not even tell whether the band was woven or made of links - sometimes it seemed one, sometimes the other - but it seemed all of a piece all the time. It was only a tiny trickle of the Power, the merest drip that she could imagine, but it still beaded sweat on her face and made her stomach clench. That was one of the properties of the a'dam; if a damane tried to channel without a sul'dam wearing her bracelet, she felt sick, and the more of the Power she channeled, the sicker she became. Lighting a candle beyond the reach of her arm would have made Egwene vomit. Once Renna had ordered her to juggle her tiny balls of light with the bracelet lying on the table. Remembering still made her shudder.

Not sure how much is required to reach T'A'R, but that doesn't mean it's impossible for Moggy to do it.

Ieyasu
01-21-2013, 12:54 PM
yeah, I was just coming to post this.


Not sure how much is required to reach T'A'R, but that doesn't mean it's impossible for Moggy to do it.

The same amount as required to make a gateway... however Moghedian does not require gateways to enter TAR that most of the Chosen require. She might be able to hook someone into a dreamshard or compell them in their dreams into releasing her when they wake...

ShadowbaneX
01-21-2013, 03:59 PM
Yeah, not what I meant.

As a counterpoint, Bair can reach Tel'Aran'Rhiod. I'm not sure about her messing with other people's Dreams and the GoI though. Stands to reason that if Bair, who cannot channel, can get there Moggy can as well.

Enigma
01-21-2013, 05:00 PM
Egwene was able to reach TAR while dosed with Forkroot but for all her skill in using the world of dreams we don't know if Moggy is actually a dreamer.

As for channeling without a sul'dam I seem to recall its very hard, you feel sick and can only channell a very small amout. I could see how you can't draw enough of the power and are feeling so sick that you can't really investigate the structure of the adam but if you were familiar with it could you channell enough to open the adam?

Moggy's main problem is going to be her mindtrap. She will have to tell them what it is otherwise they could destroy it. She may face execution but then again she may not. Its not as if the forsaken do anything that the Seanchan think most channelers left free are capable of.

Weiramon
01-21-2013, 06:49 PM
Burn my soul, as much as I admire that handsome Cadsuane Sedai, there is no doubt that the Elaida woman will have to reinstated as Amyrlin.

It's not as though one of the twelve Sitters raising her was Black Ajah.

metaphor
01-21-2013, 07:58 PM
Tuon has already made it clear that she doesn't feel the Empress (may she live forever) is bound by any agreement that she feels does not benefit the Empire.

She's convinced that this agreement will work in her favor and will let everyone else see the errors of their ways and prove how right the Seanchan are.
Add some persuasion from Min and Mat, and she might be amenable to make this agreement work out.

Brita
01-21-2013, 08:59 PM
She's convinced that this agreement will work in her favor and will let everyone else see the errors of their ways and prove how right the Seanchan are.
Add some persuasion from Min and Mat, and she might be amenable to make this agreement work out.

Maybe. Too iffy for me, but maybe...

Rand al'Fain
01-21-2013, 09:15 PM
She's convinced that this agreement will work in her favor and will let everyone else see the errors of their ways and prove how right the Seanchan are.
Add some persuasion from Min and Mat, and she might be amenable to make this agreement work out.

Well, this way, in her eyes at least, the channelers would come to her willingly without having to cnquer any nations to kidnap wives, daughters, nieces, etc., nd can focus her military forces on retaking Seanchan.

Though I doubt her messenges will be recieved warmly anywhere outside of the current Seanchan borders. Especially places like Cairhein, Andor, and the Borderlands.

Can they really be called the Borderlands anymore, since they won't be bordering the Blight?

metaphor
01-21-2013, 09:43 PM
Well, this way, in her eyes at least, the channelers would come to her willingly without having to cnquer any nations to kidnap wives, daughters, nieces, etc., nd can focus her military forces on retaking Seanchan.

Though I doubt her messenges will be recieved warmly anywhere outside of the current Seanchan borders. Especially places like Cairhein, Andor, and the Borderlands.


Well, that is the point of the agreement. That they have to accept their messengers.
I think the Seanchan empire will undergo a great change under Tuon.
She is young and intelligent, has married Mat, has Min as truthspeaker, and spends a lot of time with Beslan.

The Seanchan are in a situation where they can't just impose their values over others by power, but have to witness and adapt to other traditions.
They, and Tuon especially will have their beliefs challenged. It has already happened with the idea that channelers are wild beasts that need control and that they will be happier collared.
Tuon is trying to rationalize against it, but she can't avoid facing those facts, especially with Min and Mat around.

The most important reason behind maintaining the Damane system though, is that it's the foundation of the Empire, and without them it will crumble. But this too is not necessarily true.
The Empire is already crumbling, and in their new lands people don't share the seanchan views on channelers, so they won't be negatively affected by the freeing of the Damane.
But more importantly, someone, like Mat for instance, could realize, and note it to Tuon, that channelers are perfectly capable of beyng loyal, and that they have far more Sul'dam than damane, and a nice boost in power could be useful for regaining control over Seanchan.





Can they really be called the Borderlands anymore, since they won't be bordering the Blight?
It's still their name though.
Although...
The Blight was noted to be fairly warm. With it's destruction, could the Borderlands become even colder? and eventually inhabitable?

Rand al'Fain
01-22-2013, 12:13 AM
Well, that is the point of the agreement. That they have to accept their messengers.Meant that the people that will be hearing from these guys won't be happy with the message. That's all.
I think the Seanchan empire will undergo a great change under Tuon.
She is young and intelligent, has married Mat, has Min as truthspeaker, and spends a lot of time with Beslan. No arguments there.

The Seanchan are in a situation where they can't just impose their values over others by power, but have to witness and adapt to other traditions.
They, and Tuon especially will have their beliefs challenged. It has already happened with the idea that channelers are wild beasts that need control and that they will be happier collared. Yep. Though, keping a collar on Moghedian might be for the best (for every rule, there is an exception).
Tuon is trying to rationalize against it, but she can't avoid facing those facts, especially with Min and Mat around.
Eggy did make her uncomfortable when they talked about it, certainly, especially when Eggy revealed she had been collared for a short time. Bring in Alivia and you will have a compelling case.

The most important reason behind maintaining the Damane system though, is that it's the foundation of the Empire, and without them it will crumble. But this too is not necessarily true. If enough of the empire believes it, it certainly can be (and by all accounts, they all do).

The Empire is already crumbling,Well, the continent of Seanchan is, the rest seems pretty stable.
and in their new lands people don't share the seanchan views on channelers, so they won't be negatively affected by the freeing of the Damane. People are wary of Aes Sedai meddling (300 years of it, can't blame them), but yeah, they don't have the same predispositions against channelers that the Seanchan do.
But more importantly, someone, like Mat for instance, could realize, and note it to Tuon, that channelers are perfectly capable of beyng loyal, and that they have far more Sul'dam than damane, and a nice boost in power could be useful for regaining control over Seanchan.
Tuon will eventually come around, but it'll be the rest of the Seanchan High and Low Blood that would probably be the issue (Beslan and other Randland natives excluded), as some probably have their own Damane as well.



It's still their name though.
Although...
The Blight was noted to be fairly warm. With it's destruction, could the Borderlands become even colder? and eventually inhabitable?
Well, right now it's in their name, but the only thing they'll be bordering is the Northern Hemisphere.

And the Scandinavians (best example) and Inuits have lived in the frozen North for centuries and done quite well.

Ieyasu
01-22-2013, 02:45 AM
Egwene was able to reach TAR while dosed with Forkroot but for all her skill in using the world of dreams we don't know if Moggy is actually a dreamer.

She wasnt in TAR in the flesh when Nynaeve captured her with the collar and forced her to drink forkroot to capture her in Salidar. She bragged about being more skilled than Lanfear. She tore Birgitte out. She can enter on her own.

...all of this was true while she was a captive of Elayne's modified collar. She was not able to free herself then, I do not see why she would be able to now.


As for channeling without a sul'dam I seem to recall its very hard, you feel sick and can only channell a very small amout. I could see how you can't draw enough of the power and are feeling so sick that you can't really investigate the structure of the adam but if you were familiar with it could you channell enough to open the adam?

I was disagreeing with Dom's statement that they cannot unless linked.

however, it does not apparently take much power to stop a heart...

GonzoTheGreat
01-22-2013, 04:29 AM
...all of this was true while she was a captive of Elayne's modified collar. She was not able to free herself then, I do not see why she would be able to now.
Then she was in a situation where a number of people who were almost as skilled as she was in TAR were keeping a close eye on her. Now she is in a situation where no one even seems to know about TAR. That gives her a lot more leeway when it comes to using dreams.

Ishara
01-22-2013, 10:20 AM
however, it does not apparently take much power to stop a heart...

Sure, but whose heart do you propose stopping? She can't stop that of her sul'dam without causing great injury (death) to herself. And she can't do it while a sul'dam is wearing the bracelet, and they would be able to tell she had channeled after it was done. So she could do it once, maybe, and under extremely limited circumstances. I'm not sure that ability would benefit her at all...

Ieyasu
01-22-2013, 01:45 PM
Sure, but whose heart do you propose stopping? She can't stop that of her sul'dam without causing great injury (death) to herself. And she can't do it while a sul'dam is wearing the bracelet, and they would be able to tell she had channeled after it was done. So she could do it once, maybe, and under extremely limited circumstances. I'm not sure that ability would benefit her at all...

I am not proposing she stop anyone in particular's heart. I am not even suggesting she even knows that particular weave. I am merely pointing out that yes, damane can indeed channel without sul'dam, and that many weaves, including some lethal weaves do not require much power at all. Escape is not out of her reach.

SauceyBlueConfetti
01-22-2013, 03:22 PM
I am not proposing she stop anyone in particular's heart. I am not even suggesting she even knows that particular weave. I am merely pointing out that yes, damane can indeed channel without sul'dam, and that many weaves, including some lethal weaves do not require much power at all. Escape is not out of her reach.

Moggy had to have her collar removed for her last time. Why would this time be any different? In fact, this time she would be controlled by folks who knew exactly HOW to use the collar (and surrounded by those who know how to spot a marath'damane on the loose)which would seemingly make it harder.

I agree with the earlier posts...her mindtrap will be her death, one way or another. Someone will either have MORE control over her than a normal collared channeler, or she will die. The DO being sealed away will also dampen her enthusiasm...no one will be likely to put out their hand and say: oh hello amazing Chosen One, I am a darkfriend and I will HELP you to escape!

Ieyasu
01-22-2013, 04:29 PM
Moggy had to have her collar removed for her last time. Why would this time be any different? In fact, this time she would be controlled by folks who knew exactly HOW to use the collar (and surrounded by those who know how to spot a marath'damane on the loose)which would seemingly make it harder.

hrm... sounds an awful like what I already said a few posts back...


...all of this was true while she was a captive of Elayne's modified collar. She was not able to free herself then, I do not see why she would be able to now.

again, I am merely correcting Dom's statement that they cannot channel unless linked with a sul'dam. This is false... they can channel small amounts of power. And apparently, it doesnt take much power to stop a heart. Escape is a possibility... I personally do not think it is a very likely possibility... but it is indeed possible that she can exploit these two facts along with her TAR skills to somehow escape.

Enigma
01-22-2013, 06:38 PM
Is Suroth still around? Its a crazy idea as she may have been sold off and if she is still around she is probably under guard from the Deathwatch but if she were able to get to Moggy she might be able to offer her a deal. I will free you and we go to Seanchan and with your power and my political knowledge we coudl carve out a nice kingdom for ourselves.

It doesn't have to be Suroth of course, I am sure she was not the only darkfriend amoung the Seanchan.

eht slat meit
01-22-2013, 07:14 PM
Given that Moggy has suffered the wrath of the DO itself and is the surviving grand mistress of the fine art of groveling, scraping, and stabbing one's cohorts in the back, I don't really see a measly Seanchan trainer being able to break her beyond anything she's already been on the receiving end of to the DO. Heck, given her own talent for manipulation and groveling to suit such a power, I'm thinking the Seanchan wouldn't even see it coming.

They've already horribly underestimated her in thinking her less than an Aes Sedai. Forsaken haven't necessarily made the greatest showing throughout the books, but they had their shit together a lot sooner than the Seanchan did.

Ishara
01-22-2013, 09:43 PM
Except that a sul'dam can feel things through the collar. She won't be able to fake her way through this - it's been said, but while she's certainly devious enough to try to take advantage of three green young women, she's simply not strong-willed enough to withstand years of management by a sul'dam.

And Ieyasu, okay...I guess. Except, how could escape be within grasp with the ability to channel even a little if she can't undo her own collar, can't channel without being detected and has NO friends or leverage in the Seanchan court/ new world with the Dark One locked away forever?

I get your point that where there's a will, there's a way, but my point is, there will be no will very shortly. It'll have been beaten out of her.

eht slat meit
01-22-2013, 10:18 PM
Except that a sul'dam can feel things through the collar. She won't be able to fake her way through this - it's been said, but while she's certainly devious enough to try to take advantage of three green young women, she's simply not strong-willed enough to withstand years of management by a sul'dam.

It's not a matter of faking it. You can mean every word and still wait for opportunity to knock. Moggy knows exactly how the collars work, and has had far deadlier masters than some green girl or a mere sul'dam woman of some 20 years of experience mastering woman who already culturally beaten into fear and submission.

It should tell you something about that particular sul'damn that she's picking up what appears to be OP cast-offs just so that she can have a damane. She's got something to prove apparently.

Bear in mind this isn't the only factor working for Moggy. The world of the Seanchan has been broken to the core. Their forces are divided between a broken empire and those who are part of the Return, leaving an Empress who needs to retake her empire, and the loyalty of those who are with her in question because of the exposure of the Sul'Dam Lie.

There will be people angling for power, and there will be evil-doers that Moggy has the opportunity to recognize and manipulate, because the simple fact is that the Last Battle didn't whack all the Darkies and BAs.

It's a political powder-keg, and pulling the right strings can set it alight. All the while faithfully serving her new Dark One.

All speculation of course, but it would be a rather boring story if the Last Battle were nothing more than a giant-sized loom that automatically tied up all loose ends neatly and with ironic bad ends for every Villain.

Rebuilding is never easy.

And Ieyasu, okay...I guess. Except, how could escape be within grasp with the ability to channel even a little if she can't undo her own collar, can't channel without being detected and has NO friends or leverage in the Seanchan court/ new world with the Dark One locked away forever?

I get your point that where there's a will, there's a way, but my point is, there will be no will very shortly. It'll have been beaten out of her.[/QUOTE]

metaphor
01-22-2013, 10:46 PM
It's not a matter of faking it. You can mean every word and still wait for opportunity to knock. Moggy knows exactly how the collars work, and has had far deadlier masters than some green girl or a mere sul'dam woman of some 20 years of experience mastering woman who already culturally beaten into fear and submission.

You can't harm others if the sul'dam isn't wearing the a'dam and making you do it.

Her only possibility is the world of dreams and compulsion.

eht slat meit
01-22-2013, 10:57 PM
You can't harm others if the sul'dam isn't wearing the a'dam and making you do it.

Brute force isn't the only way to kill a person.

Her only possibility is the world of dreams and compulsion.

She's the Spider, weaver of webs and plots. To suggest that's her only possibility is to dismiss the power of her mind and tongue.

metaphor
01-22-2013, 11:07 PM
Brute force isn't the only way to kill a person.



She still can't harm others, no matter how.


She's the Spider, weaver of webs and plots. To suggest that's her only possibility is to dismiss the power of her mind and tongue.
A damane may only speak when addressed.

Ieyasu
01-22-2013, 11:46 PM
And Ieyasu, okay...I guess. Except, how could escape be within grasp with the ability to channel even a little if she can't undo her own collar, can't channel without being detected and has NO friends or leverage in the Seanchan court/ new world with the Dark One locked away forever?

I get your point that where there's a will, there's a way, but my point is, there will be no will very shortly. It'll have been beaten out of her.

I do not think it is within grasp, I just believe it is not out of reach... subtle but important difference there ;)

Well, offhand I suppose... if she manages to Compel someone while in TAR into opening her collar in the waking world, it only takes a moment to weave a gateway and leave... what makes you think shes going to stick around the Seanchan or needs leverage or friends? She has compulsion, which makes people more than friendly enough to open her collar. She is in the kennels (I assume) Why would anyone comment on the usage of power? What makes you think she cant open a gateway and walk through it before anyone could respond even if they did notice it?

In any event, I do not think her escape is very likely, however she does present a nice Bad Guy for the outriggers, so perhaps those possibilities arent as unlikely as we think.

Dom
01-23-2013, 12:19 AM
Not true. in TGH Renna comes back in during a visit with Min, in which she cuts the visit short because Egwene has channeled while she was gone, which she seemed able to tell instantly upon putting on her bracelet.

And soon enough that loophole got closed, that's why I remembered it like that.

And what happened next? Renna remedied her oversight and made sure (compelling her with the a'dam) Egwene would never be able to do touch the Source without being linked with a sul'dam again without making herself too sick to embrace saidar.

It's not a mistake even "we figure it out as we go along" sul'dam like Elayne and Nynaeve repeated in Salidar - if Moghedien had tried, we'd have known, and I think it's fairly unlikely sul'dam more competent than Renna would make that mistake with a captured marath'damane as powerful as Moghedien, especially one of her affilitation. It's not like the odds are in any way high she won't be identified for exactly who she is. She's clearly not Ayyad and was impersonating Demandred when she got captured!

Moghedien's best and probably only hope is Liandrin, if she was not caught and executed for murdering a so'jhin (we were never told what happened to Suroth's servants with her downfall, perhaps nothing very good for them). Not that Liandrin would exactly be in the mood to free Moghedien anyway, but Moghedien's also Liandrin's only hope to get free of her shield.

We got no resolution in the main series for Liandrin from Brandon (nor for Alviarin, the second central BA character), but that doesn't necessarily mean RJ had none in mind, or that he planned to have either Moghedien or Liandrin in the outriggers.

Terez
01-23-2013, 12:29 AM
I imagine after a few years in the stedding, Alviarin will have repented her sins. It's the only logical thing to do. :)

Ieyasu
01-23-2013, 12:42 AM
And soon enough that loophole got closed, that's why I remembered it like that.
Can you please tell me what you think closed this so-called "loophole"?



And what happened next? Renna remedied her oversight and made sure (compelling her with the a'dam) Egwene would never be able to do touch the Source without being linked with a sul'dam again without making herself too sick to embrace saidar.

:confused: wtf are you smoking, and can I get some... the next scene that included Egwene was her rescue with Nyn, Elayne, and Min... if you are talking about the scene Shadowbanex posted, that's from the same chapter as mine... and prior to Renna returning and punishing Egwene... its literally 2 pages before my quote... can you please quote any source at all that even remotely supports your opinion here?

eht slat meit
01-23-2013, 12:50 AM
She still can't harm others, no matter how.

Can't physically harm others. Sul'dam aren't gods.

A damane may only speak when addressed.

That opportunity has been more than enough throughout history, both in reality and fantasy.

In terms of WoT, even the hint of revelation was enough to screw with a sul'dam 's entire world view.

"Hey, by the way Mistress, everyone except you knows that sul'dam can channel."

More key to the point, however, is that not every sul'dam is a nasty little bitch out to mindwipe their damane. Many, like Tuon, see it as necessary only to teach them their place and make them learn obedience.

Moggy already knows both very well.

Dom
01-23-2013, 08:56 AM
can you please quote any source at all that even remotely supports your opinion here?


"You have been channeling." Renna's voice was deceptively mild; there was a spark of anger in her eyes. "You know that is forbidden except when we are complete."

Renna planned to break that out of Egwene, exactly like she had trained her not to touch anything she conceived of as a weapon.

"They are training me, Min. The sul'dam and the a'dam are training me. I cannot touch anything I even think of as a weapon. A few weeks ago I considered hitting Renna over the head with that pitcher, and I could not pour wash water for three days. Once I'd thought of it that way, I not only had to stop thinking about hitting her with it, I had to convince myself I would never, under any circumstances, hit her with it before I could touch it again.

WinespringBrother
01-23-2013, 09:40 AM
The question of a'dam and tel'aran'rhiod access was answered somewhat:

Interview: Oct 9th, 2010
New York ComicCon Signing Report - Ted Herman

Q: Can a Dreamer access Tel'aran'rhiod if trapped by an a'dam?

Brandon Sanderson
A: At first, Brandon said yes, but then he qualified that with 90% chance of yes.

ShadowbaneX
01-23-2013, 09:48 AM
So we need to clarify with a few of questions:
is Moggy a Dreamer?
How does Bair get to T'A'R?
Can Wise Ones who cannot channel, ie Bair access the GoI and other people's dreams?
Can a Dreamer wearing an a'dam access the GoI?

Actually, I suppose we could just go with: if Moggy's wearing an a'dam can see access other people's Dreams?

GonzoTheGreat
01-23-2013, 10:11 AM
Could a Dreamer who was doped up on forkroot access the Dream?
The answer, as we know, is "yes". Egwene showed quite clearly that for a Dreamer who normally can channel, being able to channel is not a requirement for Dreaming.

Moghedien would never have been good enough with TAR to challenge (sort of, under her breath, but still ...) Lanfear in this regard if she wasn't even able to enter TAR without channeling. Thus, she can actually enter the Dream if she chooses to, even while wearing an A'dam.

As for how she could escape while being able to channel only a very little bit:
Wait until she is alone with two non-sul'dam servants. Order them to release the A'dam, and tell them how to do that. They'll refuse. Kill one. The second releases you. Run, taking both the corpse and your helper with you. This last step is meant to cover up your tracks, so that if necessary you can repeat it at a future date.

SauceyBlueConfetti
01-23-2013, 10:19 AM
More key to the point, however, is that not every sul'dam is a nasty little bitch out to mindwipe their damane. Many, like Tuon, see it as necessary only to teach them their place and make them learn obedience.

Moggy already knows both very well.

The one that nabbed Mogs seems to fall in the nasty little bitch category. She was LOOKING for someone to collar and easily found loopholes in the new "rules". I saw her as an "nasty little bitch" :) Mogs is in for a treat with that one.

Daekyras
01-23-2013, 11:28 AM
The one that nabbed Mogs seems to fall in the nasty little bitch category. She was LOOKING for someone to collar and easily found loopholes in the new "rules". I saw her as an "nasty little bitch" :) Mogs is in for a treat with that one.

I have to agree with saucy on this one. That whole passage reads as "Good, Moghedian is caught and is going to suffer"

I actually think it is a fitting "end" for the spider.

Ieyasu
01-23-2013, 11:39 AM
"You have been channeling." Renna's voice was deceptively mild; there was a spark of anger in her eyes. "You know that is forbidden except when we are complete."

Renna planned to break that out of Egwene, exactly like she had trained her not to touch anything she conceived of as a weapon.

"They are training me, Min. The sul'dam and the a'dam are training me. I cannot touch anything I even think of as a weapon. A few weeks ago I considered hitting Renna over the head with that pitcher, and I could not pour wash water for three days. Once I'd thought of it that way, I not only had to stop thinking about hitting her with it, I had to convince myself I would never, under any circumstances, hit her with it before I could touch it again.

So you think Egwene explaining the training prior to the scene of Renna catching her channeling alone somehow makes this loophole close? You do realize the conversation with Min occurred PRIOR to her channeling while not complete, correct?

Sorry Dom, but you are just plain, flat out wrong on this one... Damane can indeed channel without being completed with the sul'dam. Trying to say Renna beat it out of her will not work... the literal next scene including Egwene after she is caught channeling while not completed was her rescue. Yes, damane can indeed channel while incomplete. The greater the channeling, the greater the sickness.

Dom
01-23-2013, 01:38 PM
Yes, damane can indeed channel while incomplete. The greater the channeling, the greater the sickness.

You took me too literally.

That:

The greater the channeling, the greater the sickness.

is exactly what I was getting at.

You have Moghedien channeling big time while in TAR. We have no evidence that's possible if she's held by an a'dam in the real world. Egwene channeled a trickle, and her sul'dam knew she did, and intended to punish her. We know if a damane breaks a rule/order, her sul'dam can then use the a'dam to compel her not to do that again, and we got an example of how this works after Egwene tried to use a water pitcher as a weapon. We've never heard of Moghedien attempting to channel or break free while being captive in any of the Elayne/Nynaeve POVs, and Egwene was even harsher with Moghedien. Not a single time Elayne/Nynaeve/Egwene have worried about her possibly using TAR, when they both knew all too well how dangerous she could be, that she could use compulsion and so on. Egwene had even less excuse to overlook this, as she knew Moghedien could contact a DF or BA in their dreams and have them come free her. It strongly suggests RJ simply forgot to give us the explanation why Moghedien couldn't use TAR while held by Elayne's a'dam.

Enigma
01-23-2013, 03:44 PM
For Moggy to ask for help escaping during the books was not without complications. After all she was a forsaken and they are supposed to be the big bad especially when dealing with primatives. I doubt if Moggy was eager for the shadow to know that she was captured. The next quesion the DO or the other forsaken would want to know was what did she tell them while a captive.

Ieyasu
01-23-2013, 03:49 PM
You took me too literally.

That:



is exactly what I was getting at.

You have Moghedien channeling big time while in TAR. We have no evidence that's possible if she's held by an a'dam in the real world. Egwene channeled a trickle, and her sul'dam knew she did, and intended to punish her. We know if a damane breaks a rule/order, her sul'dam can then use the a'dam to compel her not to do that again, and we got an example of how this works after Egwene tried to use a water pitcher as a weapon. We've never heard of Moghedien attempting to channel or break free while being captive in any of the Elayne/Nynaeve POVs, and Egwene was even harsher with Moghedien. Not a single time Elayne/Nynaeve/Egwene have worried about her possibly using TAR, when they both knew all too well how dangerous she could be, that she could use compulsion and so on. Egwene had even less excuse to overlook this, as she knew Moghedien could contact a DF or BA in their dreams and have them come free her. It strongly suggests RJ simply forgot to give us the explanation why Moghedien couldn't use TAR while held by Elayne's a'dam.

The example with the picture was an example of the inherent properties of the a'dam, not an example of compulsion. Renna told her about it prior to warn her, Egwene then thought of crashing the pitcher on her head, and Renna noticed that she was unable to touch the pitcher and punished her by forcing her to use only that pitcher until she over came it. The two things are not the same. A sul'dam cannot instill compulsion that lingers after she takes off the a'dam. She cant even use compulsion. She can use the mental link to make a damane feel physical pain, however that does not mean its compulsion. It is the same as the Aiel physical conditioning of Da'stang people with useless work and physical torture. The two are not different, the Aiel just have to physically beat their captives where as the sul'dam just have to think about it while completed. Nausea is the inhibitor used by the a'dam that prevents the damane from moving the bracelet, using a mundane item as a weapon, and also to limit uncompleted channeling... these things are inherent within the a'dam, as Semirhage said, it is not the best tool... compulsion is not a part of the a'dam.

I will agree that more clarification regarding entering TAR while collared is feasible. I do not think the fact that it prevents channeling matters what so ever, but there may be a TAR blocking element inherent as well. Remember, Egwene was able to enter TAR and channel while her physical body was shielded in the waking world while she was a prisoner in the Stone. (granted, i think she had the aid of the twisted ring ter'angreal) I do not believe there is any element of Moghedian's capture that proves it one way or another, as Moggy is a coward at heart and was well aware that the Aes Sedai were crawling all over TAR taking lessons. It would be a good question to ask Maria concerning a'dam and TAR.

Tree Brother
01-23-2013, 04:05 PM
You have Moghedien channeling big time while in TAR.

Jumping in, just because. What requires channeling big time in TAR?

You can dominate in TAR w/o channelling. You can turn people into babies, physically or mentally. I wonder if you simply imagine you are channelling in TAR, rather than really are.

Dom
01-23-2013, 07:10 PM
Jumping in, just because. What requires channeling big time in TAR?

I was referring to the idea that Moghedien could find someone's dream and compel them.

We also never got to know if she's a Dreamer. She might need to use Spirit to enter TAR (and that refers to the old theory it's part of what the "training ter'angreal" do, because someone untrained and without a natural talent like Egwene's may not be able to perform that weave that Egwene isn't even conscious of doing to enter TAR. Lanfear also made it quite plain in AMOL that Perrin's abilities are different from "what's she trained in".)

fionwe1987
01-23-2013, 07:46 PM
I was referring to the idea that Moghedien could find someone's dream and compel them.

We also never got to know if she's a Dreamer. She might need to use Spirit to enter TAR (and that refers to the old theory it's part of what the "training ter'angreal" do, because someone untrained and without a natural talent like Egwene's may not be able to perform that weave that Egwene isn't even conscious of doing to enter TAR. Lanfear also made it quite plain in AMOL that Perrin's abilities are different from "what's she trained in".)
Egwene makes no weave. She was shielded both at the Stone of Tear and in Tar Valon when she entered the Dream. Bair also does the same thing without being able to Channel.

As for touching other's dreams, we see that even Graendal can do it (though this could be a pure Brandonism, I think its not, because Aran'gar did it too, though she admitted to having very little ability here). I doubt Moghedien can't do this.

Dom
01-23-2013, 08:42 PM
The example with the picture was an example of the inherent properties of the a'dam, not an example of compulsion.

Perhaps you're right. I'll make up my mind as I reread.

Can we at least agree that based on everything we know of Moghedien and damane/sul'dam/a'dam, the odds she manages to escape without help are terribly bad?
That's the point of the whole thing after all.

ShadowbaneX
01-23-2013, 09:10 PM
Seeing as how it's pretty much impossible to take an a'dam off yourself, yeah, she's going to need help. The question this whole line of questioning is for, is that is it going to be someone with a grudge that recognizes her and uses her freedom as a barter for her aid, or will she actually be somewhat useful and use dreams/T'A'R to arrange her own escape.

I think I'd prefer the latter, rather than having all the Forsaken turn out to be useless/insane.

Ieyasu
01-23-2013, 09:49 PM
@Dom,

Yes, we can readily agree that much. Like you, (and most people) I think the possibility of escape is pretty slim. I just pick nit's now and again when i see them hehe

fionwe1987
01-24-2013, 11:23 AM
One thing to consider. Min saw viewings above Moghedien, right? What if she sees the same around a damane, now? I'm fairly sure she can use it to recognize the woman. If she does, Fortuona may know very soon that she has a Foresaken in her hands.

GonzoTheGreat
01-24-2013, 11:34 AM
One thing to consider. Min saw viewings above Moghedien, right? What if she sees the same around a damane, now? I'm fairly sure she can use it to recognize the woman. If she does, Fortuona may know very soon that she has a Foresaken in her hands.
I'm not sure the sul'dam who caught her are all that eager to inform the Empress that they've done something of somewhat questionable legality, so they may take steps to avoid such a confrontation.

ShadowbaneX
01-24-2013, 11:57 AM
Tuon seems the type to ignore some technicalities if it benefits her and the Empire. Nabbing someone of Moggy's strength, you know, Nynaeve territory, would likely make them overlook exactly how it was done. Also, I think that Rand's agreement only really went with Allies. Those on the other side of the fight were pretty much fair game.

hawkeye31
01-25-2013, 10:08 AM
One thing to consider. Min saw viewings above Moghedien, right? What if she sees the same around a damane, now? I'm fairly sure she can use it to recognize the woman. If she does, Fortuona may know very soon that she has a Foresaken in her hands.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Min never knew Marigan was Moghedien? She just knew her as some random troublemaker, right?

GonzoTheGreat
01-25-2013, 10:27 AM
Tuon seems the type to ignore some technicalities if it benefits her and the Empire. Nabbing someone of Moggy's strength, you know, Nynaeve territory, would likely make them overlook exactly how it was done. Also, I think that Rand's agreement only really went with Allies. Those on the other side of the fight were pretty much fair game.
True, but then, I don't think Moghedien was openly admitting that she'd been on that other side.

She obviously (to those who know what AS look like) wasn't an AS, but she could have been one of the Kin. Or a random Wisdom/Reader/whatever.

eht slat meit
01-25-2013, 10:45 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Min never knew Marigan was Moghedien? She just knew her as some random troublemaker, right?

While I don't think people put enough stock in "and they talked off-screen", it seems to me that Min sees a *lot* of viewings on an on-going basis and while she might have eventually heard about Marigan/Moggy, it seems unlikely that she'd remember the viewings associated with that woman unless she has something like photographic memory. Familiar? Possible - but viewings change.

Dom
01-25-2013, 12:46 PM
True, but then, I don't think Moghedien was openly admitting that she'd been on that other side.

She obviously (to those who know what AS look like) wasn't an AS, but she could have been one of the Kin. Or a random Wisdom/Reader/whatever.

She was caught while impersonating Demandred among the Sharans... It's pretty obvious whom she served.

Tuon had no qualms flaunting captured channelers from the Shadow right under Egwene's nose. Mat used his Sharan damane openly.

GonzoTheGreat
01-25-2013, 12:48 PM
Tuon seems the type to ignore some technicalities if it benefits her and the Empire. Nabbing someone of Moggy's strength, you know, Nynaeve territory, would likely make them overlook exactly how it was done. Also, I think that Rand's agreement only really went with Allies. Those on the other side of the fight were pretty much fair game.
Tuon (all Seanchan) puts great stock in following the letter of agreements.
You may keep the damane you already have, but you shall not take any from among my allies while we fight the Last Battle. Taking any afterward who are not in your own land will be seen as breaking the treaty and attacking the other nations.
So, by capturing Moghedien, those sul'dam made Fortuona into an oathbreaker. Precisely what they've been calling the Randlanders, and what they used as the justification for conquest.

Ieyasu
01-25-2013, 01:18 PM
Fortuona eyed Egwene. "Many of our sul'dam have come to this war anticipating the chance to capture new damane from among those who serve the Shadow. These Sharans, perhaps. You would have us let them or your sisters of the Shadow, free? To destroy, murder?"
"To be tried and executed, under the Light"
"Why not let them be put to use? Why waste their lives?"
"What you do is an abomination!" Egwene said, feeling exasperated. "Not even the Black Ajah deserves that."

I do not see any oath breaking in Fortuona or her sul'dams actions. They told the AS they had intentions of capturing both Sharan Channelers and Black Ajah. People may not like it, or think that execution is better, however, they are not breaking any treaty by capturing Shadow-aligned Channelers.

SauceyBlueConfetti
01-25-2013, 02:05 PM
Disagree, not an oathbreaking situation. Sharans and Darkfriends are not ALLIES, either at the time they were taken or at the straggeling ends of the battle (which is when Mogs was nabbed).

Tuon (all Seanchan) puts great stock in following the letter of agreements.

Originally Posted by AMoL, Chapter 17, Older, More Weathered
You may keep the damane you already have, but you shall not take any from among my allies while we fight the Last Battle. Taking any afterward who are not in your own land will be seen as breaking the treaty and attacking the other nations.

So, by capturing Moghedien, those sul'dam made Fortuona into an oathbreaker. Precisely what they've been calling the Randlanders, and what they used as the justification for conquest.

GonzoTheGreat
01-26-2013, 04:48 AM
I do not see any oath breaking in Fortuona or her sul'dams actions. They told the AS they had intentions of capturing both Sharan Channelers and Black Ajah. People may not like it, or think that execution is better, however, they are not breaking any treaty by capturing Shadow-aligned Channelers.

Disagree, not an oathbreaking situation. Sharans and Darkfriends are not ALLIES, either at the time they were taken or at the straggeling ends of the battle (which is when Mogs was nabbed).
True. Now, please explain to me: how could they see that Moghedien fell in one of these categories, rather than in the "ally" category?

Ieyasu
01-26-2013, 05:04 PM
True. Now, please explain to me: how could they see that Moghedien fell in one of these categories, rather than in the "ally" category?

She wasnt celebrating with the rest of the Lightsiders ;)

Then again, neither were opportunistic sul'dam.