PDA

View Full Version : How will the Aiel serve the Aes Sedai again? AKA: The Dragon's Peace sucks. Spoilers


fionwe1987
01-22-2013, 03:49 PM
spoilers follow from the beginning of the book

So, I was reading the part where they hash out the Dragon's Peace, and everyone signs it. Except anyone from the Black Tower, for inexplicable reasons.

The signings begin with Egwene. As has been pointed out before, the Aes Sedai actually signing an accord where they promise not to go to war, without being even a little insulted that this is being asked of them, if absurd. That aside, Rand's admission that the Tower will benefit hugely from this is stated openly! Yet, people present who have no great love for the Aes Sedai, from the Sea Folk to Darlin, don't seem to care at all.

Then comes Aviendha's request to be included in the Peace. I get why she wants it, and I get why the Wise Ones support her. But why did none of them mention the Prophesy about the Aiel serving the Aes Sedai again?

More importantly, when the suggestion was made about an arbitrating body to maintain the Peace, why didn't the Aes Sedai come forward? That's exactly what they've been doing for 3000 years.

Why didn't countries like Shienar, which have fought the Aiel before, insist that it be the Tower that arbitrates? Why give control of their fate to the Aiel, who they've hardly much trust for? I can understand Egwene, Elayne and Perrin not batting an eye when Rand says it will be the judgment of the Wise Ones and the Clan Chiefs that will matter. These people know that judgement can be trusted. But everyone else had no problem?

It seems to me that it would have made a lot more sense for the Aes Sedai and the Aiel to work together to enforce the peace. Not the Aiel obeying AS orders, but instead having the Aiel leaders liase with the Grey Ajah to come up with decisions on various conflicts, and the Aiel spears would be the enforcing arm.

Similarly, a channeling police force comprised of the Reds and Greens could definitely use Aiel help. From the time we read of Da'shain working for particular Aes Sedai, I was expecting the Aiel to become Warders. Not necessarily bonded to sisters, but their constant protectors and companions, and also something like their truthspeakers.

Thoughts?

Kimon
01-22-2013, 04:15 PM
Do you think that the Seanchan would have signed an accord that placed the Aes Sedai as the arbiters of disputes? The Aiel were the perfect choice. They needed a role in the peace, and yet they had no clearly designated borders, hence had no other clearly discernible place in the main outlines of the peace. The same could be argued for the Aes Sedai, the Asha'man, and the Whitecloaks. But all three of those organizations have highly suspect pasts that would have made them untenable choices. Moreover, the Aiel also happen to be the only mainlanders over whom the Seanchan had absolutely no prior claim of suzerainty.

GonzoTheGreat
01-23-2013, 04:36 AM
But this way, the Aiel do serve the Aes Sedai again. Specifically: they serve as Rand Sedai's enforcers.

Sarevok
01-23-2013, 04:41 AM
About Shienar signing: The borderlanders would have signed anything that got the support against the trollocs.

Davian93
01-23-2013, 08:09 AM
About Shienar signing: The borderlanders would have signed anything that got the support against the trollocs.

Which, looking back, didnt really help Shienar all that much.

fionwe1987
01-23-2013, 08:28 AM
Do you think that the Seanchan would have signed an accord that placed the Aes Sedai as the arbiters of disputes?
No, but then they signed one where Wise Ones are part of the arbitration. They don't really see a difference between the two.
The Aiel were the perfect choice. They needed a role in the peace, and yet they had no clearly designated borders, hence had no other clearly discernible place in the main outlines of the peace.
Of course they had borders. That's not the point. The point is the Aiel don't really care for expansion into the Wetlands. Nor do the Aes Sedai, for that matter.
The same could be argued for the Aes Sedai, the Asha'man, and the Whitecloaks. But all three of those organizations have highly suspect pasts that would have made them untenable choices. Moreover, the Aiel also happen to be the only mainlanders over whom the Seanchan had absolutely no prior claim of suzerainty.
Actually, the Seanchan have no prior claim to Tar Valon either. Their ancestor besieged the city, but never got through.

David Selig
01-23-2013, 09:12 AM
I guess after Dumai Wells the Aiel realised that serving the Aes Sedai in any way is a dumb idea. And who can blame them for this?

fionwe1987
01-23-2013, 09:17 AM
I guess after Dumai Wells the Aiel realised that serving the Aes Sedai in any way is a dumb idea. And who can blame them for this?
No one. But that's not the point. There's prophesy involved here.

David Selig
01-23-2013, 09:23 AM
They served Rand for a time, including after he got the full memories of Lews Therin, so technically the prophecy is probably fulfilled already.

What was its exact wording?

SauceyBlueConfetti
01-23-2013, 09:53 AM
They needed a role in the peace, and yet they had no clearly designated borders, hence had no other clearly discernible place in the main outlines of the peace. The same could be argued for the Aes Sedai, the Asha'man, and the Whitecloaks. But all three of those organizations have highly suspect pasts that would have made them untenable choices. Moreover, the Aiel also happen to be the only mainlanders over whom the Seanchan had absolutely no prior claim of suzerainty.

Nice use of suzerainty.

The Aiel are actually the perfect choice inasmuch as they do not believe anyone can OWN LAND. No one can. Fights over such things are odd to them, so acting as an arbitrator in land/border disputes is something I saw as perfect. They accept, in fact they uphold, the idea of "home" (roofmistresses/holds/etc) and strongly believe in the idea of permission to enter & use resources (water)of that home. They have their own odd ideas and rules, but as an arbitrator they would ultimately be fair.

fionwe1987
01-23-2013, 09:58 AM
They served Rand for a time, including after he got the full memories of Lews Therin, so technically the prophecy is probably fulfilled already.

What was its exact wording?

We don't have it, I think. We only have Amys saying to Moiraine, "We will serve the Aes Sedai again".

If it is indeed "the" Aes Sedai, just serving Rand isn't enough. And why have two prophesies say the same essential thing?

SauceyBlueConfetti
01-23-2013, 10:03 AM
Honestly I always thought that Sorilea giving Cadsuane the weave for Traveling was how they served the Aes Sedai.

THAT changed everything, absolutely everything.

Cortar
01-23-2013, 10:05 AM
We don't have it, I think. We only have Amys saying to Moiraine, "We will serve the Aes Sedai again".

If it is indeed "the" Aes Sedai, just serving Rand isn't enough. And why have two prophesies say the same essential thing?

Considering Lews Therin was the leader of THE Aes Sedai, serving him is basically like serving the Aes Sedai

fionwe1987
01-23-2013, 10:18 AM
Honestly I always thought that Sorilea giving Cadsuane the weave for Traveling was how they served the Aes Sedai.

THAT changed everything, absolutely everything.
The Aes Sedai already knew the weave, and it was an Aes Sedai who taught it to the Wise Ones. So that hardly works.

Considering Lews Therin was the leader of THE Aes Sedai, serving him is basically like serving the Aes Sedai

He was leader of the Aes Sedai 3000 years ago. This time around, he was even rejected as leader of the Black Tower.

David Selig
01-23-2013, 10:26 AM
We don't have it, I think. We only have Amys saying to Moiraine, "We will serve the Aes Sedai again".

Is this the quote in question?

TFOH, Ch.5

“It may be,” Amys said in a level voice, “that the Aiel will serve the Aes Sedai again, but that time has not come yet, Moiraine Sedai.”

"It may be" implies it's not certain to happen prophecy, doesn't it?

fionwe1987
01-23-2013, 10:31 AM
Is this the quote in question?



"It may be" implies it's not certain to happen prophecy, doesn't it?

That's the quote, but she clearly says "the Aiel will serve". The "it may be" is her basically saying it may happen, but not now.

SauceyBlueConfetti
01-23-2013, 10:42 AM
The Aes Sedai already knew the weave, and it was an Aes Sedai who taught it to the Wise Ones. So that hardly works.


Why? They have to provide something completely original?

Cortar
01-23-2013, 04:05 PM
The Aes Sedai already knew the weave, and it was an Aes Sedai who taught it to the Wise Ones. So that hardly works.



He was leader of the Aes Sedai 3000 years ago. This time around, he was even rejected as leader of the Black Tower.

You are getting too nit-picky over prophecy

fionwe1987
01-23-2013, 04:14 PM
Why? They have to provide something completely original?
Its hardly "serve the Aes Sedai" when one Wise One reveals a not so secret weave to one Aes Sedai. That's like saying the Aes Sedai served the Windfinders because the WF learned Traveling from them!

Alec
01-23-2013, 07:11 PM
spoilers follow from the beginning of the book

So, I was reading the part where they hash out the Dragon's Peace, and everyone signs it. Except anyone from the Black Tower, for inexplicable reasons.

The signings begin with Egwene. As has been pointed out before, the Aes Sedai actually signing an accord where they promise not to go to war, without being even a little insulted that this is being asked of them, if absurd. That aside, Rand's admission that the Tower will benefit hugely from this is stated openly! Yet, people present who have no great love for the Aes Sedai, from the Sea Folk to Darlin, don't seem to care at all.

Then comes Aviendha's request to be included in the Peace. I get why she wants it, and I get why the Wise Ones support her. But why did none of them mention the Prophesy about the Aiel serving the Aes Sedai again?

More importantly, when the suggestion was made about an arbitrating body to maintain the Peace, why didn't the Aes Sedai come forward? That's exactly what they've been doing for 3000 years.

Why didn't countries like Shienar, which have fought the Aiel before, insist that it be the Tower that arbitrates? Why give control of their fate to the Aiel, who they've hardly much trust for? I can understand Egwene, Elayne and Perrin not batting an eye when Rand says it will be the judgment of the Wise Ones and the Clan Chiefs that will matter. These people know that judgement can be trusted. But everyone else had no problem?

It seems to me that it would have made a lot more sense for the Aes Sedai and the Aiel to work together to enforce the peace. Not the Aiel obeying AS orders, but instead having the Aiel leaders liase with the Grey Ajah to come up with decisions on various conflicts, and the Aiel spears would be the enforcing arm.

Similarly, a channeling police force comprised of the Reds and Greens could definitely use Aiel help. From the time we read of Da'shain working for particular Aes Sedai, I was expecting the Aiel to become Warders. Not necessarily bonded to sisters, but their constant protectors and companions, and also something like their truthspeakers.

Thoughts?

I think a potential reason the Aes Sedai weren't included with the Aiel is because the Aiel would be providing a large majority of the man power for an armed conflict, so it makes sense for them to also have the main say in the initiation of that conflict.
The White Tower also has the potential for favoritism, at least in the eyes of the rulers. Elayne is Aes Sedai, and the AS and Borderland nations have always been friendly. Many of the rulers would fear AS being biased in their decision making. Even though they dislike Aiel, they could easily perceive that Aiel view all wetlanders alike, and therefore would not show favoritism.
It could also be that they simply don't have the time to hash out specifics of how sharing responsibility for this role would work.

I know these aren't the best reasons, but I think the actual reason is that the entire meeting in the tent scene wasn't done that well, so asking for logic that makes sense within the story might be a lost cause.

GonzoTheGreat
01-24-2013, 03:27 AM
Its hardly "serve the Aes Sedai" when one Wise One reveals a not so secret weave to one Aes Sedai. That's like saying the Aes Sedai served the Windfinders because the WF learned Traveling from them!
Or like saying that the Dragon served the Seanchan Empress because he greeted her by bending one knee to her. Once.

fionwe1987
01-24-2013, 03:32 AM
Or like saying that the Dragon served the Seanchan Empress because he greeted her by bending one knee to her. Once.
But the Prophesy never said the Dragon would serve the Empress. Only that he would kneel to the Crystal Throne. It doesn't say he'll keep kneeling either, or that he will kneel in supplication.

The Unreasoner
01-24-2013, 01:40 PM
What exactly are you up in arms about? A prophecy that may or may not exist wasn't fulfilled to your standards? The Aiel make way more sense as peacekeepers than the Aes Sedai. For one thing, the Black Tower, the Sea Folk, and the Seanchan would absolutely not accept the White Tower as the arbiter of all dispute, while the Aiel (with the blessing of the Dragon) are about the only people who might be accepted by everyone. Not all Wise Ones can channel (as if that was the big dealbreaker).

You say the Aiel will serve the Aes Sedai again? They did: Rand Sedai, the ultimate Servant of All. Even if it was prophecy, nowhere does it say (indeed, given the nature of Time, nowhere could it say) that service was to be endless. There are no more Second Age Aes Sedai, and no one can claim the rights that went with their power. It is now divided amongst the White and Black Towers, the Sea Folk, the Aiel, the Seanchan, and even the Sharans. The 'so-called' Aes Sedai of the White Tower are not the only heirs to the ancient Aes Sedai, and so they cannot claim the right to having the Aiel serve them without making the Aiel less. And again, they did serve (once again): they served the Dragon. If that isn't enough, they continue to serve by enforcing the Dragon's Peace.

So, aside from a maybe-prophecy not being fulfilled (to you), what's wrong with the Dragon's Peace? The absence of Logain's and the Sharan's signatures? Rand presumably signed it, that should cover Logain. As for the Sharans, since they are (more or less) the only force excluded, it makes no difference: any move they make to expand their territory would come to the same result: they would face the combined might of the powers under the Peace.

Cortar
01-24-2013, 02:19 PM
Or like saying that the Dragon served the Seanchan Empress because he greeted her by bending one knee to her. Once.

Well "his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul" literally meant he dribbled some blood on some rocks as he walked up there.