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View Full Version : Brandon Sanderon on #torchat today 1/23/13 4PM EST


WinespringBrother
01-23-2013, 02:42 PM
http://torforge.wordpress.com/2013/01/22/january-torchat-lineup-revealed/

Dom
01-23-2013, 03:07 PM
http://torforge.wordpress.com/2013/01/22/january-torchat-lineup-revealed/

Interesting, but I guess his "no direct spoiler for AMOL" rule of recent Q&A is still in force?

sleepinghour
01-23-2013, 03:10 PM
Interesting, but I guess his "no direct spoiler for AMOL" rule of recent Q&A is still in force?

Hopefully not... They haven't said anything about that yet.

fionwe1987
01-23-2013, 03:19 PM
Anyone know how exactly this works? Just post questions with #torchat?

WinespringBrother
01-23-2013, 03:38 PM
Anyone know how exactly this works? Just post questions with #torchat?

Yes. They will give guidelines for the chat at the beginning using that hashtag. Based on previous chats, it will take a few minutes to get answers, so don't repeat your question, just be patient.

fionwe1987
01-23-2013, 03:49 PM
Yes. They will give guidelines for the chat at the beginning using that hashtag. Based on previous chats, it will take a few minutes to get answers, so don't repeat your question, just be patient.
Cool. Peter Ahlstrom said on Twitter that he doubts they can completely stop spoiler questions, but Brandon will try. I take that to mean they'll answer spoiler questions, but not too many.

WinespringBrother
01-23-2013, 03:53 PM
There was a tweet just now saying to add @BrandSanderson to your questions as well as the hashtag #torchat.

Ieyasu
01-23-2013, 04:16 PM
I do not use twitter, and thus, do not have a twitter account, but would someone be kind enough to ask if a Seanchan a'dam blocks the collared person from entering TAR?

Thank you!

SauceyBlueConfetti
01-23-2013, 04:19 PM
Mike Ball ‏@MtnMikeBall
*SPOILER* @BrandSanderson How did Rand light the pipe at the end of AMOL? #torchat

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@MtnMikeBall I know no more on this than fandom does, I'm afraid. RJ did not explain. #torchat
Guess we will have to SPECULATE!!!!!!!!

Rand al'Fain
01-23-2013, 04:33 PM
I don't have twitter either, could someone please ask if we find out what happens to any of the characters after the ending of AMOL? Not asking what happens to them, just want to know if we will learn of it at any time.

sleepinghour
01-23-2013, 04:44 PM
I asked who was the Broken Wolf.

@BrandSanderson: Perrin's spirit guide. Note that the "he" in the next sentence does not refer to the same creature.

Terez
01-23-2013, 04:50 PM
I asked three questions, though I just saw he won't answer my first. Have to run some errands, but I'll record all his answers later. Fun day.

kasper11
01-23-2013, 04:52 PM
I got confirmation on Rand's third question...

@BrandSanderson #torchat Did Rand's third question to the Aelfin involve whether/how the DO could be killed?



@BrandSanderson @kaspe_r11 I think Maria and Harriet are planning to put these in the encyclopedia, but you are right on the third question. #torchat
Hide conversation

WinespringBrother
01-23-2013, 04:52 PM
I do not use twitter, and thus, do not have a twitter account, but would someone be kind enough to ask if a Seanchan a'dam blocks the collared person from entering TAR?

Thank you!

I posted in the other thread, that Brandon answered that 90% chance that the person could still access TAR (he wasn't entirely sure).

fionwe1987
01-23-2013, 05:00 PM
Well some disappointing answers there. Apparently, the Aes Sedai don't drop the Oath Rod, and Asha'man don't become male Aes Sedai.

Apparently, RJ wasn't sure if he wanted Elayne to have Cairhein by Merrilor (no clue whether she was eventually to have it).

And Cadsuane does become Amyrlin, apparently.

fionwe1987
01-23-2013, 05:08 PM
Some confusing things:

RJ was clear to me that the Asha'man were not Aes Sedai, and were not going to become them.

That said, a united male/female Aes Sedai will come again someday.

So it looks like two organizations, both including men and women?

fionwe1987
01-23-2013, 05:41 PM
An interesting one:

Q: did all of the bale fire cracks disappear after the last battle? If not, was Egwene's weave discovered again?

A: The world will heal itself, with time, even without he weave. But the weave was witnessed

Crispin's Crispian
01-23-2013, 05:52 PM
I wish someone had asked about the body swap.

Isabel
01-23-2013, 05:52 PM
The weird thing is: ion brandons twitter i dont see all the answers as was posted herebelow.

fionwe1987
01-23-2013, 05:55 PM
I wish someone had asked about the body swap.
LOL! Brandon called Nakomi the new Asmodean, but I'd say the body swap comes close.

He did also say that while he doesn't want to reveal anything about Nakomi, if someone pins him down in person, he may be more chatty. So for the love of creation, pester him in person if any of you gets the chance.

kasper11
01-23-2013, 05:55 PM
He tweeted everything back to the questioner so as not to clog up twitter feeds. Search for #torchat

KilMichaelMcC
01-23-2013, 05:55 PM
Some confusing things:

RJ was clear to me that the Asha'man were not Aes Sedai, and were not going to become them.

That said, a united male/female Aes Sedai will come again someday.

So it looks like two organizations, both including men and women?


I think he's saying that Aes Sedai including men and women has to come again someday, because eventually the Wheel again will turn to (the next version of) the Age of Legends.

fionwe1987
01-23-2013, 05:58 PM
I think he's saying that Aes Sedai including men and women has to come again someday, because eventually the Wheel again will turn to (the next version of) the Age of Legends.
That's almost a whole turning of the Wheel later. Don't think that's what he was referring to.

Isabel: Go to Brandon's profile, go to his tweets, and hit "All", instead of "No Replies". You should be able to see everything he answered.

Dom
01-23-2013, 06:00 PM
I wish someone had asked about the body swap.

Tons did. He refused to answer. The only details he let slip is that it's not illusion and it's really Rand's body which was burned.

sleepinghour
01-23-2013, 06:02 PM
My loony theory received a crushing blow, but is still limping along... :D


Sleepinghour: Any chance of Birgitte or Egwene being reborn as one of Melaine's twins?

Brandon: I can't remember what RJ has said about when a spirit is linked to a body in WoT terms.

Terez: RJ said viability.

Brandon: I thought that's what he had said. So I'd say there is a chance. (But as you can guess, the notes don't say.)

Dom
01-23-2013, 06:03 PM
I think he's saying that Aes Sedai including men and women has to come again someday, because eventually the Wheel again will turn to (the next version of) the Age of Legends.

And that's probably exactly what he was hinting at. He keeps going about how little RJ's notes confirmed about the fourth Age.

Dom
01-23-2013, 06:07 PM
Androl is indeed Jain Farstrider’s son.

Huh? So his whole back story in AMOL as the son of a male channeler who committed suicide is bullshit?

Terez
01-23-2013, 06:08 PM
I wish someone had asked about the body swap.
lol.

The weird thing is: ion brandons twitter i dont see all the answers as was posted herebelow.
You have to click "All" (it displays his tweets without replies by default).

Dom
01-23-2013, 06:12 PM
The largely verbatim summary is up on tor.com

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2013/01/brandon-sandersons-wheel-of-time-answers-from-torchat

KilMichaelMcC
01-23-2013, 06:19 PM
Huh? So his whole back story in AMOL as the son of a male channeler who committed suicide is bullshit?



What? Where is that from? I thought I saw every answer Brandon gave and I sure didn't see that one!

Demon
01-23-2013, 06:21 PM
Guess we'll never know about Rands control over everything powers.

KilMichaelMcC
01-23-2013, 06:23 PM
Was that "Androl is Jain Farstider's son" thing a joke? Because I'm looking through Brandon's responses again and I still don't see that?

sleepinghour
01-23-2013, 06:23 PM
The part about Androl being Farstrider's son seems to have been a mistake by the Tor staff who wrote the summary.

TorChris
Good catch, Bergmaniac. We took another look and the affirmative given by Brandon for Androl might have been for another question from that Twitter user, so we've struck it from the list. Plenty of time to ask him later!

Dom
01-23-2013, 06:26 PM
What? Where is that from? I thought I saw every answer Brandon gave and I sure didn't see that one!

I also missed that one during the chat but it's in the Tor transcript, and someone else on Twitter even claims it's mentioned in the book.

Androl is from Tarabon, Noal was 75% confirmed as a Malkieri in TOM.

Edit: oh, a Tor SNAFU now removed. It makes more sense :D

Edit 2: the "it was mentioned in the book" must be about that other Jain mentioned by Androl, the one whose death convinced him he must convince a Wisdom to teach him her trade.

fionwe1987
01-23-2013, 06:26 PM
Moiraine’s prophecied purpose during the Last Battle was to stop Egwene and Rand from going to The Last Battle separately instead of together.

Hmmm... interesting. Given how important this was supposed to be, I do wish it had been written better.

Ivhon
01-23-2013, 06:30 PM
My loony theory received a crushing blow, but is still limping along... :D

Melaine's twins are well past viability at the time of AMoL

Elayne's, however, are just now viable...

Davian93
01-23-2013, 08:26 PM
An interesting one:

Q: did all of the bale fire cracks disappear after the last battle? If not, was Egwene's weave discovered again?

A: The world will heal itself, with time, even without he weave. But the weave was witnessed

Of course it was witnessed, that's in the books...at least her weaker version of it.

I'm happy my question on the healing of the Pattern was answered though.

fionwe1987
01-23-2013, 08:34 PM
Of course it was witnessed, that's in the books...at least her weaker version of it.
Not sure that's what he's referring to. Yukiri seemed to have no clue what was going on.

Crispin's Crispian
01-23-2013, 08:41 PM
Tons did. He refused to answer. The only details he let slip is that it's not illusion and it's really Rand's body which was burned.

Yeah...that was sarcasm. It's Nakomi with the pipe in the lobby that should have been explored.

Marie Curie 7
01-23-2013, 08:44 PM
I'm happy my question on the healing of the Pattern was answered though.

He effectively had already answered the question at the Skokie signing.

Interview: AMOL Signing Report - Marie Curie (Paraphrased)
Jan. 9, 2013 (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=873#9)

Marie Curie:
We know that during the War of Power, entire cities were destroyed by balefire. It doesn't seem like (up until A Memory of Light, at least) enough balefire had been used during the Third Age to be anything close to what was used in the War of Power. Can you speak a little more about the cumulative effects? How much balefire is required before the Pattern starts to be significantly affected?

Brandon Sanderson:
My interpretation of the way it works is that it's about a lot of balefire over a short period of time (and in a localized position) that causes the most serious damage to the Pattern. Cracks form in reality (like we see in A Memory of Light) when this occurs. The Pattern can sort of heal itself if the balefire ceases. It's kind of like an engine overheating.

Dom
01-23-2013, 08:49 PM
Yeah...that was sarcasm. It's Nakomi with the pipe in the lobby that should have been explored.

Missed that.

Nakomi with the pipe in the lobby is the one who did in Shaidar Haran?

Marie Curie 7
01-23-2013, 08:56 PM
I asked who was the Broken Wolf.

@BrandSanderson: Perrin's spirit guide. Note that the "he" in the next sentence does not refer to the same creature.

Um, there is no "he" in the next sentence:


In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come. Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself.

So does Brandon mean that the "his" in the next sentence is not meant to refer to the same creature? wtf.

Davian93
01-23-2013, 08:58 PM
I think its a reasonable leap to think he meant the "his" in that prophecy.

eht slat meit
01-23-2013, 09:03 PM
Um, there is no "he" in the next sentence:

I expect BS was referring to the masculine "his".

So does Brandon mean that the "his" in the next sentence is not meant to refer to the same creature? wtf.

Agreed. The use of 'and' coupled with the vague his, rather than a title, connects the two thoughts. Somewhat poorly written, even if you consider it an extension of the previous segments.

Maybe the darkfriend ran out of inspiration for insults.

Marie Curie 7
01-23-2013, 09:11 PM
I think its a reasonable leap to think he meant the "his" in that prophecy.

I expect BS was referring to the masculine "his".

Yeah, presumably that is what Brandon meant, but then he shouldn't have put the "he" in quotes if he didn't remember the exact wording. All he had to say was that the next sentence in the prophecy does not refer to the same creature.

Agreed. The use of 'and' coupled with the vague his, rather than a title, connects the two thoughts. Somewhat poorly written, even if you consider it an extension of the previous segments.

Yes, definitely poorly worded.

Ishara
01-23-2013, 09:35 PM
...Noal was 75% confirmed as a Malkieri in TOM.


Am confused. Jain Charin/ Farstrider was 100% Malkieri per the earlier books. ToM confirms that Jain and Noal are the same person, ergo Malkieri. No?

Dom
01-23-2013, 10:04 PM
Am confused. Jain Charin/ Farstrider was 100% Malkieri per the earlier books. ToM confirms that Jain and Noal are the same person, ergo Malkieri. No?

:D I spent too much time on Wotmania/rafo where, if you dared state Jain was Malkieri as I've believed he was since the story of the fall of Malkier there would always someone launching into a pointless argument that it was not proven he was Malkieri just because he was involved in the events of its downfall.

There's more than enough to conclude he was from Malkier, and his last words pretty much prove it. But I took no chance. But yeah, Jain is from Malkier and Androl is from Tarabon and he's not Jain's son. Androl would have been too old when Jain vanished, already a grown man, and not that Jain could channel anyway!

I'm not too sure what in AMOL made some believe Androl was Jain's son (aside from that other Jain he mentioned to Pevara) when it's fairly obvious he is Valan Luca's brother.

KilMichaelMcC
01-23-2013, 10:21 PM
Um, there is no "he" in the next sentence:



So does Brandon mean that the "his" in the next sentence is not meant to refer to the same creature? wtf.
So, the Broken Wolf is Hopper, but the next sentence is just randomly about some other guy?

Demandred, I have to assume, he's the only who fits as no one else's destruction really shook anyone's will and his death rattled the Sharans.

But that's just... not a well written prophesy if it just switches from one subject to another with no indication thereof. I really had thought the Broken Wolf was Demandred.

Terez
01-23-2013, 11:11 PM
I asked who was the Broken Wolf...
Seems to be yet another thing Luckers was right about. I officially don't care about this prophecy any more, but I suspected when I read the book that Perrin's soul was melded to Hopper's, hence Slayer's comment. Which is presumably how he was able to do what Slayer does. The bit about the next line being unconnected is just terrible writing.

LOL! Brandon called Nakomi the new Asmodean, but I'd say the body swap comes close.

He did also say that while he doesn't want to reveal anything about Nakomi, if someone pins him down in person, he may be more chatty. So for the love of creation, pester him in person if any of you gets the chance.
I think he meant 'the new Asmodean' in the sense that it's a minor detail that people became obsessed with. Body swap doesn't really fit there since it's a major resolution and the mechanism is actually important to the story.

Also, I'm pretty sure his offer was specifically to kcf, with the understanding that it wouldn't be public information. He'll probably give other people the same vague answers he gave today.

Dom
01-23-2013, 11:31 PM
Seems to be yet another thing Luckers was right about. I officially don't care about this prophecy any more, but I suspected when I read the book that Perrin's soul was melded to Hopper's, hence Slayer's comment. Which is presumably how he was able to do what Slayer does. The bit about the next line being unconnected is just terrible writing.

I suspected as much too when I read Slayer's line to Perrin. He seriously implied Perrin too was tied to another soul, and only Hopper seems to fit the bill. The wolf who wanted to be an eagle (of Manetheren). Dear RJ.

Brandon's use of "Spirit Guide" is interesting. It means Brandon understands what Perrin does in terms connected with shamanism.

It strengthens the theory Luc was the Hero of the Horn Shivan the Hunter, herald of the end of an Age, it's hard to see how a normal human could have been used to give Isam a "spirit guide" akin to a Wolf to make him able to jump in and out of TAR. A HoH, however, goes to the same "afterworld" as a wolf.

It perhaps also undermines the notion that Luc's soul was added to Isam's body. Based on Perrin/Hopper, the door is wide open now for another type of connection altogether created between Isam and Luc, one that endured beyond Luc's death. That's a new way to remove the Shivan at Falme bug.

Brandon evaded all Callian/Shivan questions, it sounds like it's one of those things RJ wanted us to figure out as we wished rather than give us his own answer.

kcf
01-23-2013, 11:36 PM
I really wish Brandon had answered my question about heroes of the horn - I asked which heroes were alive during events of the series, other than Birgitte and Farstrider.

Dom
01-23-2013, 11:40 PM
I really wish Brandon had answered my question about heroes of the horn - I asked which heroes were alive during events of the series, other than Birgitte and Farstrider.

We probably can expect information about this from the Encyclopedia. I get the feeling they will include all the Heroes from RJ's notes and there may be more of them that he didn't mention being present at Falme. In the description of some, we might have clues.

kcf
01-23-2013, 11:42 PM
We probably can expect information about this from the Encyclopedia. I get the feeling they will include all the Heroes from RJ's notes and there may be more of them that he didn't mention being present at Falme. In the description of some, we might have clues.

That's my hope as well. And it relates to my other unanswered question - what new stuff will we get in the Encyclopedia.

But one answer he gave me indicated that he'll be more free with answers privately if I can track him down. Hopefully I can make that happen in May when he's in Arizona for a convention.

Dom
01-23-2013, 11:54 PM
That's my hope as well. And it relates to my other unanswered question - what new stuff will we get in the Encyclopedia.

My guess would be: "way too much to list". From the hints they're giving recently (eg: the questions to the Finns), it sounds like they're preparing to give us a whole lot of stuff from RJ's notes that he didn't specifically excluded for eventual reveal.

It seems likely the way Maria teased about her that entries like Verin's will have a whole lot of new information.

I also expect a shitload of new stuff about the world. The way RJ created his cultures with logical grids, there's likely to be tons of stuff he established then didn't actually used. We also know he had lots of stuff about stuff like History. When I asked him about the patterns I saw in the choices of Amyrlins, he told me I could see more of those if Harriet chose put his complete list of Amyrlins in the encyclopedia (the Guide only had those of the New Era).

Dom
01-24-2013, 12:15 AM
I kind of like the fact Brandon confirmed RJ left no explanation at all concerning the "pipe thing".

I can't help but smile thinking at the time he wrote that scene, RJ knew that's one secret he never put anywhere in his notes and he'd take to the grave, his famous "hook" in the last scene.

Somehow, it's much cooler that no one can explain it for sure and there will never be anyone, rather than thinking there's an explanation for that in the notes somewhere he instructed not to reveal. Much more RJ-like that he took the series' last mystery to his grave.

fionwe1987
01-24-2013, 01:59 AM
I think he meant 'the new Asmodean' in the sense that it's a minor detail that people became obsessed with. Body swap doesn't really fit there since it's a major resolution and the mechanism is actually important to the story.
Hmmm... I guess. It just seems ridiculous to me to relegate Nakomi to Asmodean status. Sure, I don't think she's like the central mystery or anything, but in her one, possibly two appearances, she did quite a bit. And she's not a mystery as much as a major tease.
Also, I'm pretty sure his offer was specifically to kcf, with the understanding that it wouldn't be public information. He'll probably give other people the same vague answers he gave today.
Well, that's too bad, if true. I doubt the encyclopedia will have anything, so I hope someone pulls an answer out eventually. The way people wore him down today with the body swap thing to reveal the body wasn't an illusion (not a big reveal, I know), I still have hope he'll eventually cave.

ETA: By the way, any conformation if Maria did indeed say Rand was not a Hero of the Horn? I read in DM that she said that in one of the signings when asked about channelers being Heroes, and she also said that the Pattern has other ways to course correct than the Heroes. I'm interested in getting this confirmed. If Rand is not a Hero, and possibly not Nakomi either, this could explain how she came from deep in Rand's notes. She could be a non-Hero extension of the Pattern or something.

Terez
01-24-2013, 03:41 AM
Hmmm... I guess. It just seems ridiculous to me to relegate Nakomi to Asmodean status. Sure, I don't think she's like the central mystery or anything, but in her one, possibly two appearances, she did quite a bit.
Meh, she kind of didn't do anything, though. The only real suggestion she made to Aviendha was that the Aiel should maybe consider leaving the Waste, and the only thing she did with Rand was tell him to do what he was already doing.

ETA: By the way, any conformation if Maria did indeed say Rand was not a Hero of the Horn?
Brandon got tricked into confirming it (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=893#10) at the midnight release, and Maria too, and while they tried to backtrack, it's pretty obvious what happened there. (It's even more obvious if you watch the video.) And of course, RJ said he was a hero years ago (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=86#3). Though admittedly that's the same signing as the one about the horn having to follow the heroes. I don't think either Brandon or Maria would have had a problem confirming it if they weren't concerned about spoiling AMOL (even vaguely).

Oh, and the transcript of the torchat (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=874#22) is done.

fionwe1987
01-24-2013, 03:52 AM
Meh, she kind of didn't do anything, though. The only real suggestion she made to Aviendha was that the Aiel should maybe consider leaving the Waste, and the only thing she did with Rand was tell him to do what he was already doing.
Well yes, these were mere nudges. But that doesn't make them less important, in my eyes. Especially if there's a reason why she can't do more than nudge.

Brandon got tricked into confirming it (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=893#10) at the midnight release, and Maria too, and while they tried to backtrack, it's pretty obvious what happened there. (It's even more obvious if you watch the video.) And of course, RJ said he was a hero years ago (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=86#3). Though admittedly that's the same signing as the one about the horn having to follow the heroes. I don't think either Brandon or Maria would have had a problem confirming it if they weren't concerned about spoiling AMOL (even vaguely).
Hmph. There goes that theory.
Oh, and the transcript of the torchat (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=874#22) is done.
Cool. Thanks.

Terez
01-24-2013, 04:04 AM
By the way, do you know why your tweet didn't show up in the conversation and your handle didn't show up as a link? That happened one other time in the chat but Peter provided a link for that one. (He made this a lot easier by sending me his automated summary.)

fionwe1987
01-24-2013, 04:06 AM
By the way, do you know why your tweet didn't show up in the conversation and your handle didn't show up as a link? That happened one other time in the chat but Peter provided a link for that one. (He made this a lot easier by sending me his automated summary.)

I was having some difficulty as I have two handles on the same account. Twitter kept reverting me back to my daily one, so I gave up on using the fionwe1987 one.

GonzoTheGreat
01-24-2013, 04:54 AM
Suggestion for the Broken Wolf Prophecy, revised edition:
Lo, it shall come upon the world that the prison of the Greatest One shall grow weak, like the limbs of those who crafted it. Once again, His glorious cloak shall smother the Pattern of all things, and the Great Lord shall stretch forth His hand to claim what is His. The rebellious nations shall be laid barren, their children caused to weep. There shall be none but Him, and those who have turned their eyes to His majesty.

In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come. Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers.

And His destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself. And then, shall the Lord of the Evening come. And He shall take our eyes, for our souls shall bow before Him, and He shall take our skin, for our flesh shall serve Him, and He shall take our lips, for only Him will we praise. And the Lord of the Evening shall face the Broken Champion, and shall spill his blood and bring us the Darkness so beautiful. Let the screams begin, O followers of the Shadow. Beg for your destruction!
Somebody simply made a mistake while writing down the prophecy, erroneously assigning a sentence to the previous paragraph. As an added feature of the mistake "his" in "His destruction" was not given the capital it should have gotten.

Terez
01-25-2013, 01:27 AM
I suspected as much too when I read Slayer's line to Perrin. He seriously implied Perrin too was tied to another soul, and only Hopper seems to fit the bill. The wolf who wanted to be an eagle (of Manetheren). Dear RJ.
The more I think about it, the more I think (along the lines of what you've said before, if I recall) that RJ was going somewhere similar with Rand and Ishamael. He made rather a big deal about the blood from a prick of a thorn in the TEOTW 24 dream, which happened right before the "one face" and mirrors foreshadowing. (Rand looking in a mirror in the last scene is also a reference to this.) Perhaps they were "melded" then, and the balefire incident merely aggravated already-existing circumstances.

Ishamael's Dreaming power probably had a great deal to do with how he was able to go out and about in the world, and this along with Rand's death also goes a long way toward explaining Rand's new powers, also along the lines of things you've said before about Luc. He is dead, and his soul should rightfully be in Tel'aran'rhiod, but instead he has the body (and perhaps also the soul) of a considerably powerful Dreamer, one who sought oblivion and perhaps got instead the ultimate punishment. :) When he's ready to die, he probably need only shift his soul from waking to dreaming, at which point Moridin's soul can finally get some rest, if not the oblivion he seeks. ;)

eht slat meit
01-25-2013, 02:05 AM
I suspected as much too when I read Slayer's line to Perrin. He seriously implied Perrin too was tied to another soul, and only Hopper seems to fit the bill. The wolf who wanted to be an eagle (of Manetheren). Dear RJ.

Brandon's use of "Spirit Guide" is interesting. It means Brandon understands what Perrin does in terms connected with shamanism.

I think you're mistaken about Hopper for a couple of reasons, and it boils down to two main points.

First is the prophecy itself - while Hopper fits the basic description of a broken wolf that Death has known, it seems to be generally accepted that Midnight Towers refers either to the Forsaken or possibly a location in Seandar. Slayer is not a Forsaken, and he killed Hopper at Tar Valon.

I'm more inclined to believe that when Brandon referred to Perrin's spirit guide, he was being very literal and referring to Young Bull, Perrin's other half.

In the Norse mythology that RJ has borrowed very heavily from for a part of his mythological underpinnings, there is a concept of Fylgja, that of a supernatural being - usually an animal - that accompanies a person and is usually only seen when a person is asleep. It's more blatant in Perrin's case, but the associations with Dragon, Fox, Dove, Stag and others are noticeable elsewhere.

It makes a great deal of sense. The Fallen Blacksmith is Perrin's human persona, while the Broken Wolf is his Young Bull persona. The former is that which he wants to be and cannot, the latter which is part of him and that he does not want. Some correlations between his human aspect and that title could be made, but ... Brandon seems to have deep-sixed that.

So, if Young Bull is the "Broken Wolf", it would seem to follow that Lanfear is the Midnight Tower in question. He fell, arguably either in love or just outright fallen, and was consumed by Lanfear's compulsion weave.

Which brings it back round to what broke the Compulsion. Wolves are considered to mate for life in the popular lore, is exemplified by Perrin's obsessive pursuit of her and when pressed between his devotion to Faile vs his compulsion to Lanfear, the obvious break was made by Faile.

fionwe1987
01-25-2013, 04:08 AM
The more I think about it, the more I think (along the lines of what you've said before, if I recall) that RJ was going somewhere similar with Rand and Ishamael. He made rather a big deal about the blood from a prick of a thorn in the TEOTW 24 dream, which happened right before the "one face" and mirrors foreshadowing. (Rand looking in a mirror in the last scene is also a reference to this.) Perhaps they were "melded" then, and the balefire incident merely aggravated already-existing circumstances.
Interesting... Didn't the arrow that killed Hopper also pierce Perrin's thigh?

Dom
01-25-2013, 10:19 AM
I think you're mistaken about Hopper for a couple of reasons, and it boils down to two main points.

First is the prophecy itself - while Hopper fits the basic description of a broken wolf that Death has known, it seems to be generally accepted that Midnight Towers refers either to the Forsaken or possibly a location in Seandar. Slayer is not a Forsaken, and he killed Hopper at Tar Valon.


That's putting too much weight on Egwene's interpretation of the symbol in another prophecy altogether.

I think the Midnight Towers image is the Shadow. In Egwene's dream it told her something about the Forsaken. In the DP, it can only be the Final Death that "consumed" Hopper (Slayer merely killed him), and by your very own arguments, Young Bull was certainly never consumed by any Forsaken. Young Bull is still there after the final match with Lanfear.

I'm more inclined to believe that when Brandon referred to Perrin's spirit guide, he was being very literal and referring to Young Bull, Perrin's other half.



It doesn't work. First, Young Bull is Perrin. It's not a separate entity. It's just a name the wolves gave him, because of his axe. Then Young Bull hardly acted as a Spirit Guide. Up to TOM he has needed to be guarded, trained and guided.

there is a concept of Fylgja, that of a supernatural being - usually an animal - that accompanies a person and is usually only seen when a person is asleep.

And you don't see how this fits Hopper like a glove? A spirit is exactly what he was (became). It's after meeting Hopper's pack that the connection between them awakened, that Perrin first heard the wolves. That's been spotted years and years ago. We just never got anything to confirm that Hopper could have been more literally connected to Perrin, that their encounter might have started it all, but that Hopper and Perrin were inspired by shamanism (norse and others) and Hopper was a guide or totem animal to Perrin was blatant since the early series. Hopper has done it all: In TDR we saw him guarding Perrin's sleep.

And Hopper is broken, "scarred and grizzled". He's also the one that died. Young Bull never did.

Moridin misinterpreted the Prophecy and capitalized Death (Moridin), thinking it referred to him and Perrin and meant Perrin would die, and that his death was important because it would shake "men's very will". He had it completely wrong. The whole "broken wolf whom Death has known" simply meant: the scarred wolf that had died, known the grave. It was a big clue Moridin needed to look for someone that being dead didn't stop from having a role. A HoH maybe, or.. a wolf. Moridin was always dangerously (for him/tne Shadow) dismissive of Perrin's TAR guardian/guide - and it bit them all in the end, as Perrin thanks to everything Hopper taught him stopped the Shadow's "Last Chance".

That's why pre-TGS I liked Hopper so much for the Broken Wolf (though to be fair my theory like every one's involved pretty iffy stuff to explain the "His destruction shall" line, unknowing we didn't have to.)

I never liked the Dark Prophecy. I always found it not quite up to RJ's standards. The "cheat" Brandon hard to resort to for the "His Destruction..." verse only made this more obvious. The first DP was cleverly devious. The TOM one was devious but not clever.

It's more blatant in Perrin's case, but the associations with Dragon, Fox, Dove, Stag and others are noticeable elsewhere.

You're mixing things up. The other animal associations aren't of the same nature. Only "wolfbrothers" in the series are directly, literally, shamanic. They're the only ones concretely tied to a specific animal, and able to transform into it. The rest is inspired far more by the Arthurian tradition of symbolism (itself a remnant of pre-christian Celtic and Norse beliefs incl. shamanism, mixed with the christian medieval traditions, notably to use heraldry in a symbolic and often esoteric way (the Old French tradition of de Troyes is laced with Templar/Cathar symbolism, much of it translated into Mallory who developed it massively, this time in a more orthodox way.). Elayne is associated to Lions, Mat to Foxes, Gawyn to a boar, Bryne to a bull, AS to swans, Faile to a Falcon, Rand to snakes and dragons etc. Several others are rather associated to inanimate objects: Egwene to the Moon, Luc to an acorn etc. Several characters have multiple symbols attached, to cover different aspects, or to be complementary. In their cases it's largely symbolic of their personalities or roles, in the Arthurian vein. It's not "more blatant" with Perrin, it's completely different, literal.

The Fallen Blacksmith is Perrin's human persona,

He's not a "fallen blacksmith" in that sense. Far from it, he brought the art to mastery with the making of his Hammer. The "fallen" refers literally to the episode in AMOL when Slayer made him fall, forcing Perrin to leave TAR defeated, literally fallen, caught and saved by Master Luhhan. Those were the last days of his pride the verse refers to.

Young Bull isn't broken. He ended up stronger than ever, destroyed both Slayer and Lanfear.

So, if Young Bull is the "Broken Wolf", it would seem to follow that Lanfear is the Midnight Tower in question.

Towers. If you decide the image means the Forsaken, you can't make it just one since it's the plural. Which is why I think the image means the Shadow in a more general way, including the Forsaken. It's the "fortress of the Shadow", the power of the Shadow/Shai'tan. In Egwene's version each tower of the fortress represent a Forsaken, the whole is the Shadow.

He fell, arguably either in love or just outright fallen, and was consumed by Lanfear's compulsion weave.

He wasn't consumed, he defeated the weave. Consumed means that everything you are is gone. Like happened to Hopper. Perrin wasn't consumed by anything.

Wolves are considered to mate for life in the popular lore, is exemplified by Perrin's obsessive pursuit of her and when pressed between his devotion to Faile vs his compulsion to Lanfear, the obvious break was made by Faile.

By Perrin through the power of his love for Faile. Faile herself had nothing to do with it, except for inspiring his love for her to Perrin.

Hopper had done the same thing for his mate Dapple, dying and then "alive" in TAR to guide Perrin through each and every step, the last one was sending him to Boundless. And Perrin embraced instinctively Hopper in EOTW - that's why he attacked Whitecloaks.

RJ replaced Hopper in the RW by Gaul, and by the finale, with Hopper now destroyed, Gaul joined Perrin in TAR.

Aram tried to take over the role of Perrin's guardian, but ended up corrupted and rabid.

The other important parallel to the Wolves, with their instinctive hatred of the Shadow and in all the ambiguity of lupine symbolism - both positive (Norse myth, their loyalty and nobility in the veins used most famously by Kipling) and the very negative (the ultimate predator in European culture, devilish animals, also associated to rapists and murderers), was the Whitecloaks. Galad shaped them into positive "wolves", under Asunawa and Valda they had become very much the wrong kind.

SauceyBlueConfetti
01-25-2013, 10:54 AM
The more I think about it, the more I think (along the lines of what you've said before, if I recall) that RJ was going somewhere similar with Rand and Ishamael. He made rather a big deal about the blood from a prick of a thorn in the TEOTW 24 dream, which happened right before the "one face" and mirrors foreshadowing. (Rand looking in a mirror in the last scene is also a reference to this.) Perhaps they were "melded" then, and the balefire incident merely aggravated already-existing circumstances.

Ishamael's Dreaming power probably had a great deal to do with how he was able to go out and about in the world, and this along with Rand's death also goes a long way toward explaining Rand's new powers, also along the lines of things you've said before about Luc. He is dead, and his soul should rightfully be in Tel'aran'rhiod, but instead he has the body (and perhaps also the soul) of a considerably powerful Dreamer, one who sought oblivion and perhaps got instead the ultimate punishment. :) When he's ready to die, he probably need only shift his soul from waking to dreaming, at which point Moridin's soul can finally get some rest, if not the oblivion he seeks. ;)

oh no, no, no! Two souls, one soul, two souls, one soul!!

Just to be sure I am understanding this, you think there is a chance that Moridin's soul is still inhabiting the "body"? Moridin's soul is...dormant (not sure if that is the right word here, but it works I guess)? Rand would just go from waking to dreaming to actually allow his own soul to die? Hmmm.

Dom
01-25-2013, 12:21 PM
The more I think about it, the more I think (along the lines of what you've said before, if I recall) that RJ was going somewhere similar with Rand and Ishamael. He made rather a big deal about the blood from a prick of a thorn in the TEOTW 24 dream, which happened right before the "one face" and mirrors foreshadowing. (Rand looking in a mirror in the last scene is also a reference to this.) Perhaps they were "melded" then, and the balefire incident merely aggravated already-existing circumstances.

Our views are indeed getting very close at this point. :)

The more I think about it, the more I think all the human-made "bonds" were both hint and red herring. They were an emulation of something much stronger and already existing.. but normally hidden.

The "soul bond" between Moridin and Rand is more of the nature of the soul bond between Birgitte and Gaidal. We somewhat got fooled to think that because both were HoH while obviously Elan Morin was not, such a bond was unlikely to exist, that Elan Morin isn't reborn with the Dragon Soul much the same way as Gaidal and Birgitte. But in the end, it appears to be the case. It may well be true of each Forsaken. They appear to be "counter heroes", another type of corrective mechanism, "opposed" to other souls. Their balance. It doesn't mean the souls they are soul bonded to are Heroes of the Horn. Rand and Elan Morin, Egwene and Lanfear, Mat and Sammael is obvious, Lan and Demandred too, Mesaana and Verin etc. Some of the others are more difficult to match, as there are many possible matches (Birgitte and Moghedien is one, but is it Graendal and Nynaeve, or Moiraine and Graendal vs. Nynaeve and Semirhage? Or Tuon and Semirhage? Siuan and Balthamel seems obvious, Aginor and Mordeth? We'll never know. And we more than enough material to guess that those relationships don't have to be exclusive. Another bond seems to exist between Rand, Egwene and Lanfear, Rand and Perrin and Mat. Rand, Min, Aviendha and Elayne etc. We might be looking for duos where some are triads.)

That exists and it is "eternal" and have nothing to do with the physical realm and all with souls, Min's viewing of Birgitte was the proof of it, even death couldn't cut those soul bonds. That was one big clue for the one between Rand-Moridin.

Another big clue comes from the emulation of the soul bonds Elayne created between herself and Birgitte. Having those happen between people of the same gender had incidences. Rather than being complementary like AS and Warder, Birgitte and Elayne "merged" physically in some way, started to mirror one another. Their periods aligned themselves, Elayne was drunk when Birgitte drank. She had her hangovers, and presumably Birgitte shared some of her pregnancy-related sickness.

The metaphysical "why" of this is a bit mysterious, and we misinterpreted it as a clue Moridin literally bonded Rand, but that was just an explanation/a clue for the physical effect.

Brandon pushed it a bit further in AMOL, showing us what happens when a mixed gender bond is "complete". Pevara remarks at some point she has to be careful not to lose her identity - she spoke of her self and mind merging with Androl's. Another point she could share Androl's control of their link. It sounds to me that with their double-bond, Pevara and Androl brought it one step further to <i>a real</i> soul-bond (or it may well be as well they are soul-mates, and their bonds merely steps over the normal barrier between their souls.). I'm not sure RJ meant to include this double-bond, if Brandon found it in his notes and decided he'd have one, but it's fairly clear part of Brandon's goal was to give hints about Moridin being able to seize saidin from Rand during the Algarin Manor events (it was at the point where Rand confused his constructed "voice" of LTT and Moridin half the time).. if the LTT "voice" wasn't Moridin all along. It really began after his death and became worse upon his return. It also tended to act as an observer in the back of Rand's mind most times, playing the despair card (constantly reminding him of Ilyena's murder, or driving Rand toward suicide and nihilism, by KOD it was spouting Elan Morin's nihilist philsophy through LTT "the Creator makes worlds and moves on, not caring about Creation etc. Reality is meaningless etc.). The other times the "voice" interfered it was warning Rand about Taim ("Kill them all. Demandred!") or in confrontations with Lanfear, the latter the Chosen Moridin hates and resents the most viscerally, the former his biggest rival. The final type of situation in which the voice interfered was to save Rand... thwarting the plans of other Chosen .. guiding Rand to break the shield, at the Manor, during the confrontation with Semirhage etc.

At the manor, what happened set the stage for Semirhage's "You are mad and LTT is real" - in effect distracting Rand from his growing suspicions there was a "third man", which could have foiled Moridin's impersonations of LTT driving Rand toward despair and nihilism. I'd very much would like to have a confirmation that Moridin indeed staged the whole thing at the Manor, both sending the armies and seizing control to destroy it. I think it's a perfect example of him playing both sides, but I think in a more general way this refers to him being both Moridin the adversay, and the dangerous false friend that was "the LTT voice".

And yes, it would mean that with the epiphany and Rand realizing LTT was real.. but memories, the whole scheme of "the voice" no longer worked, depriving Moridin of his best tool to drive Rand to suicidal despair and insanity. It would mean Moirdin could continue his games, and to influence Rand (and to an extent it appears he might have), but he had to be extra careful not to be spotted, as he couldn't hide himself anymore behind LTT speaking to Rand.

Under this explanation, Rand seizing the True Power was merely him turning the tables on Moridin, much in the vein of Moridin controlling Rand's channeling at the manor. Shai'tan welcomed this outcome, lured Rand, but it seems Moridin tried to stop it.

The Taint breaking the barrier between Rand's mind and the memories of his past life was yet another clue. It appears a similar barrier has been broken between him and one of his "soul-mates", the hidden bond became apparent. They are of the same gender, and something reminescent of the effects appearing in a more minor mode between Elayne and Birgitte who was both of the same gender and technically "dead", ie: without a life thread, at least one for the "real world". There was a hint in AMOL it might have started at Falme, with the physical True Power wound attacking his body like the Taint was beginning to attack his mind.

The cause probably can be traced back to the True Power or Taint too. Moridin wasn't truly "alive". He died, his soul was transmigrated in a living body. It may be that fact Moridin lost his life thread dying, which let the Taint erode their barrier, and more related to erosion of the barrier between Rand's mind and his LTT memories than we've believed.

Another possibility (and AMOL hints at this, possibly) is that the corruption of the barrier on Rand's life thread began with the wound in Rand's side, Ishamael dying marked a new step. I keep feeling strongly that what happened at SL was mostly an effect of their soul-bond, but the clash of balefire streams perhaps further eroded the barrier. Hard to tell, because it seems to me that it really started around the time Ishamael died and the LTT voice appeared, and then progressed from there. If Ishamael has been "the voice" in the back of Rand's mind, the erosion and merging seem to have been very gradual, worsened by the use of Callandor more than anything, and then SL was just a freak accident resulting from the threads of Moridin/Rand touching. Moridin didn't understand what happened, but after that he was very cautious to remain well away physically from Rand.


Ishamael's Dreaming power probably had a great deal to do with how he was able to go out and about in the world, and this along with Rand's death also goes a long way toward explaining Rand's new powers, also along the lines of things you've said before about Luc. He is dead, and his soul should rightfully be in Tel'aran'rhiod, but instead he has the body (and perhaps also the soul) of a considerably powerful Dreamer, one who sought oblivion and perhaps got instead the ultimate punishment. :) When he's ready to die, he probably need only shift his soul from waking to dreaming, at which point Moridin's soul can finally get some rest, if not the oblivion he seeks. ;)

Something like that. I'm not sure anymore how I'd conceive of the Afterlife Moridin and similar souls exist in. We have solid hints that TAR is multi-dimensional. Hopper didn't see Birgitte for instance. It may well be "anti-heroes" have their own "realm" or afterlife dimension in TAR too, that like the HoH they are "alive" in death, but somehow I think not. It could explain Moridin's frustration that he did not have his own past memories even dead, but my feeling is that this rather came from his realization after death and transmigration that Rand had LTT's while he did not have his own, not even after dying. He still had only the Elan Morin memories... and access to the LTT ones and to Rand's mind. Ironically, while there's no warranty touching the Taint would have resulted in this erosion for him, the DO's filter for the Taint probably made it impossible for this erosion to happen anyway.

I guess it might be more correct to speculate it's the shell of Rand's life thread that eroded and gave Moridin access to his mind (and LTT memories), than calling it a barrier between Rand and Moridin which eroded. The evidence is slim at best that Rand had access the same way Moridin did to Moridin's mind and memories.

I'll pitch something new into the arena: I think the soul-bond between Rand and Moridin and the fact the Dragon was a HoH and alive in TAR most likely has a relation to the fact Ishamael wasn't fully sealed like the other Forsaken. I think that and his Dreamer abilities allowed him to touch TAR. Then I now have this hunch that his ability to enter the real world again was in the final instance related to Rand's incarnation, that's when he was able to sometimes enter the RW, and finally he was able to almost break away the more strongly ta'veren Rand become. The breaking of the first seal freed him completely. As for his previous apparitions in the flesh, my hunch is that the previous one was tied to Artur Hawkwing's incarnation. Is this in any way related to Rand, or does it have to do with another soul-bond existing between the Betrayer of Hope and the Hammer of Light, I don't know. He appeared as Hawkwing became strongly ta'veren, and vanished not that long after his death, reminiscent of how he vanished some time after LTT's death. The third soul-bond seems to be between Ba'alzamon and Eldrene (a case can be made for Elayne, Ileyna and Eldrene being all the same soul).

The other very apparent "soul-bond", which became really apparent mostly in AMOL, was between Egwene and Rand. In the AOL she was Latra Posae, in the TW she was Tetsuan, and probably Deane Aryman (the heroic Mother born in Salidar, saving the Tower from the disaster of Bonwhin-Elaida, but snuffed out too soon, after her role had played. She was an Amyrlin to drive the Tower with an iron-hand through a hard patch, not an Amyrlin meant to rule long years in peace time. Too strong-willed, too much the dictator necessary during a crisis but not a ruler for peace time, presumably. Egwene's achievements endured as long as necessary, but between the Seanchan antagonism, her female alliance she meant to stand against the BT, her growing conflict with Elayne over the Kin, the whole thing held by strings and was about to explode in her face. Egwene was meant to make the WT strong for TG. Beyond TG, she probably wasn't the woman to make the WT embrace its new role.).

The balance for Rand appears to me to be extremely complex. It goes far beyond strictly Rand vs. Moridin. There was Rand-Egwene as well, Rand-Perrin-Mat, Moridin and Elayne. Aviendha and Min were added to balance other things. It's a big and extremely complex Pattern we find around Rand/the Dragon soul. We've seen only some aspects of it, with mere hints are other relationships that play out in other patterns (eg: Ishamael and Hawkwing, Hawkwing and Rand).

fdsaf3
01-25-2013, 01:22 PM
If Rand and Moridin were so connected that the physical harm of one stabbing himself in the hand caused the other to feel it, I wonder why Moridin didn't seem to feel the severe pain of the wounds in Rand's side. I don't know if we should chalk this up to oversight, not enough explanation to know if he did in fact feel the effects of those wounds, or what.

Anyone have thoughts on this?

Dom
01-25-2013, 05:19 PM
If Rand and Moridin were so connected that the physical harm of one stabbing himself in the hand caused the other to feel it, I wonder why Moridin didn't seem to feel the severe pain of the wounds in Rand's side. I don't know if we should chalk this up to oversight, not enough explanation to know if he did in fact feel the effects of those wounds, or what.

Anyone have thoughts on this?

Moridin appeared to be in increasingly bad shape for someone in a young healthful body.

I always had the impression he was affected by Rand's wounds, like the loss of his hand etc.

KOD hinted, Brandon made it fairly obvious in TGS. Moridin was a wreck, and Graendal noticed it. Since his return, he was less and less active. My guess is that Moridin was slowly dying all along. His new body couldn't sustain what Rand's was going through. By the end I suspect Rand's four bonds were playing a large role in keeping him alive. Moridin had no such extra "health"/energy and was sharply declining.

sleepinghour
01-25-2013, 08:16 PM
It may well be true of each Forsaken. They appear to be "counter heroes", another type of corrective mechanism, "opposed" to other souls. Their balance. It doesn't mean the souls they are soul bonded to are Heroes of the Horn. Rand and Elan Morin, Egwene and Lanfear, Mat and Sammael is obvious, Lan and Demandred too, Mesaana and Verin etc. Some of the others are more difficult to match, as there are many possible matches (Birgitte and Moghedien is one, but is it Graendal and Nynaeve, or Moiraine and Graendal vs. Nynaeve and Semirhage? Or Tuon and Semirhage? Siuan and Balthamel seems obvious, Aginor and Mordeth? We'll never know. And we more than enough material to guess that those relationships don't have to be exclusive.


I think that's one of the most interesting aspects of WoT. And as you say, there are many possible matches. There's Mat/Rahvin—both womanizers, yet Rahvin was not above Compelling his victims while Mat ended up coerced into becoming Tylin's pretty. Rand's balefire killed Rahvin, but brought Mat back to life. Then there's Rahvin/Galad—described as equally beautiful, both got their faces disfigured... Rahvin raped Morgase; Galad avenged her rape by Valda. Many parallels are more obvious now that the series is over.

Terez
01-25-2013, 08:43 PM
oh no, no, no! Two souls, one soul, two souls, one soul!!

Just to be sure I am understanding this, you think there is a chance that Moridin's soul is still inhabiting the "body"? Moridin's soul is...dormant (not sure if that is the right word here, but it works I guess)? Rand would just go from waking to dreaming to actually allow his own soul to die? Hmmm.
Well, if he can't channel, then there has to be some explanation for why Brandon believes he will live centuries. He says he knows nothing more about Rand's new powers than fans do, though, so maybe we shouldn't read too much into it. But if he'll live centuries, then it implies he is essentially immortal and would have to choose his own death when it comes.

I like to think of their souls as having merged to an extent. Rand was always dominant in his own body, and Moridin always dominant in his, but now Rand is dominant in Moridin's body. I don't doubt some of Moridin's personality remains, but Rand conquered the dangerous instincts associated with Moridin's personality on Dragonmount.

I like the merging as an explanation for how Rand took over Moridin's body because it's the least deus ex machina explanation we have. Brandon has talked about the in-world precedent, but really, the only precedents we have are Mordeth-Fain and Luc-Isam. Mordeth was a special circumstance created by the evil of Shadar Logoth, and Slayer was something different altogether. If Rand-Moridin has similarities to either, I'd think it would be to Luc-Isam.

connabard
01-25-2013, 09:47 PM
The "soul bond" between Moridin and Rand is more of the nature of the soul bond between Birgitte and Gaidal. We somewhat got fooled to think that because both were HoH while obviously Elan Morin was not, such a bond was unlikely to exist, that Elan Morin isn't reborn with the Dragon Soul much the same way as Gaidal and Birgitte. But in the end, it appears to be the case. It may well be true of each Forsaken. They appear to be "counter heroes", another type of corrective mechanism, "opposed" to other souls. Their balance. It doesn't mean the souls they are soul bonded to are Heroes of the Horn.

Are we sure they're always counter-parts though?
In tGH during the flickering "I have won again Lews Therin" wasn't it said/hinted that there are times when the Dragon fights for the Shadow?
Or does that mean that when the Dragon turns to the Shadow, Elan turns to the Light?

LoialT
01-25-2013, 11:31 PM
About Hopper being spirit bonded to Perrin, I think this is right, and wrong. When Isam finally makes this observation to Perrin, it is about the fact that he can suddenly move between worlds in the flesh, and this is preceded by Perrin almost dying and then feeling life and warmth flow into him from his HAMMER. Now, the question then is, what is so special about the hammer? We know it is not just power-forged. It is something more. It can kill myrdraal dead. It can kill dark hounds. I think his hammer has Hopper's spirit imbued in (or somehow tied) to it. He even engraved an image of Hopper into the metal.

I think basically, Perrin tied Hopper to the hammer in the way that a hero's soul (including probably Luc's) is tied physically to the Horn. The ability to move between the world of flesh and the world of dreams in the flesh would seem to me to require both a spiritual and a physical element. For the experts out there, is there some physical item that both Isam and Luc always wear/carry? Would the wolf belt buckle fit that?

SamJ
01-26-2013, 12:11 PM
Our views are indeed getting very close at this point. :)

Rand and Elan Morin, Egwene and Lanfear, Mat and Sammael is obvious, Lan and Demandred too, Mesaana and Verin etc. Some of the others are more difficult to match, as there are many possible matches (Birgitte and Moghedien is one, but is it Graendal and Nynaeve, or Moiraine and Graendal vs. Nynaeve and Semirhage? Or Tuon and Semirhage? Siuan and Balthamel seems obvious, Aginor and Mordeth?

So this reminds me of something I’ve been turning over in my mind for a while, namely, that you can see patterns and parallels between the Forsaken and various characters, with the Forsaken being a corrupted version. I’m not talking about soul bonds here. More like the way Egwene parallels Lanfear, but has a good version of her life.

The most amusing is Cadsuane and Graendal. Graendal was a noted ascetic; Cadsuane starts off the books in retirement from the world. Graendal initially devoted her life to helping the mentally ill; Cadsuane helped men who could channel adjust to their fate and survive the crushing depression (a mental illness). Graendal surrounds herself with devoted slaves chosen for their beauty and nobility; Cadsuane has a retinue of followers who she thinks are sensible and useful (whether or not others think so, e.g. Daighan). Graendal hides from the world; Cadsuane goes out and deals with it. Graendal is devoted to sensual pleasures; Cadsuane is a virgin/maiden aunt. Graendal is ambitious and wants to be nae’blis, ends up a slave herself; Cadsuane is a natural leader but doesn’t want the formal position, ends up Amrylin.

Others that have occurred to me are:
Rand and Moridin - obviously
Nynaeve and Semirhage – both amazing healers
Verin and Moghedian – both ‘secret agents’ working from the shadows
Moiraine and Mesanna – both teachers and guides
Thom and Asmodean – both teachers and musicians
Galad and Rhavin – (as pointed out above)

Dom - I had thought Mat and Demandred as gamblers and generals (which has the nice side effect of making the brag off with Rand in AMOL slightly less painful, as it is a positive spin on the competition between LTT and Barid Bel). I can see where the Sammael/Mat parallels come in, but why lan/Demandred (apart from the LB)?

sleepinghour
01-26-2013, 02:08 PM
So this reminds me of something I’ve been turning over in my mind for a while, namely, that you can see patterns and parallels between the Forsaken and various characters, with the Forsaken being a corrupted version. I’m not talking about soul bonds here. More like the way Egwene parallels Lanfear, but has a good version of her life.

That's how I see it too. There are many strong parallels between the main characters and various Forsaken, but in most cases, I don't believe there's any in-world explanation like a soul bond or corrective mechanism. RJ liked parallels, is all. There are several other characters who also mirror the main characters, people who weren't necessarily evil, but were less lucky or made the wrong decisions.

Take Aram—he experienced a loss similar to Perrin's when his family was killed by Trollocs, but unlike Perrin, he never found the right balance between the sword and the Way of the Leaf. He also became very devoted to Faile. Aram then went insane at Malden and tried to kill Perrin. His last words were: "I have to rescue the Lady Faile from you." Perrin also killed his ally (Rolan), albeit unknowingly, and went more than a little insane trying to rescue Faile.

Then there's Egwene and Nicola. Both had a Talent connected to Foretelling and the Talent for creating cuendillar, couldn't wait to learn more even if it meant breaking the rules, and constantly sought new role models. Nicola's storyline closely mirrored Egwene's—she lost the man she was going to marry after he became Dragon(sworn), attached herself to Nynaeve until she joined the Tower (at which point she became competitive and hostile towards Nynaeve), wanted to become another Moiraine, then began to idolize Egwene. Egwene played the role of Wise One and introduced Nicola to T'A'R, but much like Egwene herself, Nicola chose to enter T'A'R without her teacher's permission/supervision.


"Nicola wants to be another Caraighan," Nisao muttered caustically. "Or another Moiraine."-ACoS

Egwene caught sight of one figure stooping beside a section of rubble, wearing a blue dress. [...] Nicola screamed as she was tossed into the air, bits of molten rock spraying around her. -ToM

Nicola's choices weren't all that different from Egwene's, but she didn't have Main Character Plot Armor. Some fans took Nicola's admiration of Egwene as a sign that her character was improving (ha!), as Egwene herself believed, but Nicola never changed at all. However, since just about every other Aes Sedai fawned over Egwene in TGS/ToM, Nicola's behavior didn't stand out so much. The warning signs kind of got buried.


The most amusing is Cadsuane and Graendal.

I tend to match Graendal with Alivia (a 400-year-old virgin who knows practically nothing about the birds and the bees, has no worldly possessions or desires beyond seeing the Seanchan destroyed), but Cadsuane works even better.


I can see where the Sammael/Mat parallels come in, but why lan/Demandred (apart from the LB)?

Neither of them are the life of the party?

As Lan walked on, he found himself chuckling. He seldom laughed, and it was a fool thing to laugh over, but laughter was better than worrying over what he could not change. -NS

[Demandred] did not grin as he took the advantage. He did not seem like a man who grinned very often. -AMoL

SamJ
01-26-2013, 03:14 PM
That's how I see it too. There are many strong parallels between the main characters and various Forsaken, but in most cases, I don't believe there's any in-world explanation like a soul bond or corrective mechanism. RJ liked parallels, is all. There are several other characters who also mirror the main characters, people who weren't necessarily evil, but were less lucky or made the wrong decisions.

Yeah - I really enjoy unearthing them now. For example, Lan and Nynaeve's arc takes on a lot more meaning having read New Spring. Can only wish we had Tam's story that I beleive was one of the other planned prequels.

Then there's Egwene and Nicola. Both had a Talent connected to Foretelling and the Talent for creating cuendillar, couldn't wait to learn more even if it meant breaking the rules, and constantly sought new role models. Nicola's storyline closely mirrored Egwene's—she lost the man she was going to marry after he became Dragon(sworn), attached herself to Nynaeve until she joined the Tower (at which point she became competitive and hostile towards Nynaeve), wanted to become another Moiraine, then began to idolize Egwene. Egwene played the role of Wise One and introduced Nicola to T'A'R, but much like Egwene herself, Nicola chose to enter T'A'R without her teacher's permission/supervision.

I like this a lot.


Neither of them are the life of the party?

But what a party!:p

sleepinghour
01-26-2013, 04:41 PM
For example, Lan and Nynaeve's arc takes on a lot more meaning having read New Spring.

Yeah, NS is rife with interesting parallels, especially to Lan and Nynaeve's arc. I've been meaning to write a full-length, rambling post about that at some point, but I have to think a bit more about how AMoL adds to those parallels. For example:

NS ends with Lan having to inform Edeyn that her daughter Iselle is dead, then he leaves her behind for good, burns his daori, and is bonded by Moiraine. Nothing comes of Edeyn's plans for Lan and Malkier.

AMoL ends with Nynaeve already in possession of Lan's bond (her own braid/daori parallel also got burned off in ToM), she learns of Egwene's death, then Lan arrives to console her. It's strongly implied that they will get Malkier back.

It's classic RJ—he repeats the pattern, but reverses the order and outcome. He used the same approach with Egwene/the Guinevere myth.

finnssss
01-26-2013, 08:09 PM
About Hopper being spirit bonded to Perrin, I think this is right, and wrong. When Isam finally makes this observation to Perrin, it is about the fact that he can suddenly move between worlds in the flesh, and this is preceded by Perrin almost dying and then feeling life and warmth flow into him from his HAMMER. Now, the question then is, what is so special about the hammer? We know it is not just power-forged. It is something more. It can kill myrdraal dead. It can kill dark hounds. I think his hammer has Hopper's spirit imbued in (or somehow tied) to it. He even engraved an image of Hopper into the metal.

I think basically, Perrin tied Hopper to the hammer in the way that a hero's soul (including probably Luc's) is tied physically to the Horn. The ability to move between the world of flesh and the world of dreams in the flesh would seem to me to require both a spiritual and a physical element. For the experts out there, is there some physical item that both Isam and Luc always wear/carry? Would the wolf belt buckle fit that?


I like this.
Personally, I think all Wolf Brothers are melded souls of men and wolves.
Embueing part of Hopper's soul in the hammer...feels right. If that makes any sense.