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mauifranko78
01-23-2013, 09:11 AM
Stuff added here to avoid spoiling people who mouse over this thread. -- Marie
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This was mentioned in the death toll thread, but I am posting my question here.

Did we ever get the mechanism, cause of the merging to begin with??

I think way back to theories about the crossed balefire. Possibly Moridin bonding Rand with the True Power. But with the entire body swap, neither seems likely.

Lent out my copy, so won't be able to reread for awhile.

Thanks

Rand al'Fain
01-23-2013, 09:56 AM
This was mentioned in the death toll thread, but I am posting my question here.

Did we ever get the mechanism, cause of the merging to begin with??

I think way back to theories about the crossed balefire. Possibly Moridin bonding Rand with the True Power. But with the entire body swap, neither seems likely.

Lent out my copy, so won't be able to reread for awhile.

Thanks

No merging, it was bodyswap.

SauceyBlueConfetti
01-23-2013, 10:01 AM
Bodyswap. It seemed pretty clear in the final thoughts of Rand (sorry, book not with me, don't have exact quote) which was something like: he wakes up and thinks it was him, Rand al'Thor. JUST Rand al'Thor.

Dom
01-23-2013, 12:52 PM
Bodyswap. It seemed pretty clear in the final thoughts of Rand (sorry, book not with me, don't have exact quote) which was something like: he wakes up and thinks it was him, Rand al'Thor. JUST Rand al'Thor.

That, and the lighting of the pipe at the end. Rand just thought himself having Moridin's body and Moridin dying in his Rand body, and it worked. He woke up in Moridin's body.

SauceyBlueConfetti
01-23-2013, 01:11 PM
That, and the lighting of the pipe at the end. Rand just thought himself having Moridin's body and Moridin dying in his Rand body, and it worked. He woke up in Moridin's body.

Hmmm. I hadn't thought of it that way exactly...I meant more along the lines of there was no MERGE. Moridin no longer exists in Rand's thoughts in any way, shape or form. It is not as if he and Moridin became one person (hello two souls people...let's not go THERE again hehehehehe)

I am not sure it is as simple as Rand thinking OK, ONE. TWO. THREE. SWAP! and it happened. I think there may have been more to the melding of the True Power, Saidin, Saidar and the already existing connection between the two. More like Rand discovered the DO's trick of recycling bodies. Hmmm. I need to re-read. AGAIN.

Ieyasu
01-23-2013, 03:04 PM
One of the things I am curious about, when did the body swap occur?

Did Rand carry his old body out of the cave or Moridin's body?

Rand al'Fain
01-23-2013, 03:38 PM
One of the things I am curious about, when did the body swap occur?

Did Rand carry his old body out of the cave or Moridin's body?

I'm thinking his old body, just from how it is commented on during that scene.

Dom
01-23-2013, 03:49 PM
I am not sure it is as simple as Rand thinking OK, ONE. TWO. THREE. SWAP! and it happened. I think there may have been more to the melding of the True Power, Saidin, Saidar and the already existing connection between the two. More like Rand discovered the DO's trick of recycling bodies. Hmmm. I need to re-read. AGAIN.

You won't find any conclusive bit.

Brandon just confirmed in a Q&A that RJ left no explanation how it happened or instructions not to explain it.

mauifranko78
01-23-2013, 05:30 PM
No merging, it was bodyswap.

Bodyswap doesn't really explain Moridin jabbing his own hand and causing pain in Rand's hand. The process of "bodyswap" started ~7 books ago. So, either way, merging or bodyswap, what is the triggering event for it??

eht slat meit
01-23-2013, 05:34 PM
It seems to me, and I'll admit that this is pure speculation, that the DO hasn't really done anything with the Power that someone else with *sufficient* (emphasis on that) matching power couldn't replicate. How much power it takes to bodyswap someone is anyone's guess, but given that they figured out Forsaken were being recycled, it could be as much a moment of inspiration for Rand as any of Nynaeve's bursts of discovery.

eht slat meit
01-23-2013, 05:37 PM
Bodyswap doesn't really explain Moridin jabbing his own hand and causing pain in Rand's hand. The process of "bodyswap" started ~7 books ago. So, either way, merging or bodyswap, what is the triggering event for it??

The balefire crossover probably made them suitable hosts for each other, unpredictable results from an explosion of negative eneryg, while the actual bodyswap itself was merely a capitalization on an opportune moment.

Dom
01-23-2013, 05:43 PM
Bodyswap doesn't really explain Moridin jabbing his own hand and causing pain in Rand's hand. The process of "bodyswap" started ~7 books ago. So, either way, merging or bodyswap, what is the triggering event for it??

Well, Brandon all but told us their two life threads were woven together in the Pattern. Personally I think it's enough of a clue that the DO managed to erode the natural barriers and make their threads touch, much like the barrier between Rand's mind and his memories from the first of his past lives, which he is supposed to have only in death/TAR, was eroded by the Taint.

The hand, the state Moridin was in which reflected Rand's, Rand following Moridin's logic or suddenly spouting his philosophy, "LTT's" obsession with suicide, or Rand seeing things Moridin did, even the belief it's LTT who seized control of his channeling at the Tairen Manor (when it's more likely to have been Moridin... much like the possibility for Rand to seize the TP was probably a result of the connection between Rand-Moridin).. this all speaks of a LTT-like phenomenon between Rand and Moridin, except of course they're two souls and both alive.

That Rand and Moridin are closely woven together in the Pattern is probably quite natural, that their life threads touched and interfered with one another is most likely the result of some corruption/erosion. Did it start with the True Power wound in Falme, or at Shadar Logoth, we'll never know for sure.

Technically, the body swap happened at the Pit of Doom. We've always been told some things are only possible there. It's certainly possible Rand figured out off-screen he could perform a transmigration and he swapped body with Moridin.

Shazaam
01-23-2013, 07:38 PM
Tell me your thoughts on this theory. Rand talks about the balance between good and evil and how he balances the effects of the DO. Example: apples grow, sun shines, grass turns green. However the DO is outside the pattern, not a part of it. I think that Moridin is Rand's opposite to balance the pattern of the wheel of time. That is their connection, brothers from different mothers perhaps? Once the DO could no longer directly influence that pattern through the bore there was no need for balance or possibly Moridin.
Also this has probably been discussed here but I am pretty convinced that the grey haired Aiel is the creator in flesh and gave Rand the ability to change things by thinking they were changed for his sacrifice? Rand mentions while walking his dreamshard in AMOL that things would be so much easier if he could change things by thinking. Anyway my 2cents.

discius
01-24-2013, 12:11 AM
Just new here so my question could have been asked a million times but here it goes:

What is Moridin's connection with Rand? Who is Elan?

Terez
01-24-2013, 03:08 AM
The details about their connection were left deliberately ambiguous. There are a lot of plausible theories, some more plausible than others. Elan is Moridin, because Moridin is Ishamael, and Ishamael was Elan Morin Tedronai.

Davian93
01-24-2013, 07:22 AM
The details about their connection were left deliberately ambiguous. There are a lot of plausible theories, some more plausible than others. Elan is Moridin, because Moridin is Ishamael, and Ishamael was Elan Morin Tedronai.

Which one is the Walrus? Goo Goo Ga Joob!!!

Zombie Sammael
01-24-2013, 07:26 AM
Which one is the Walrus? Goo Goo Ga Joob!!!

Here's another clue for you all: the walrus was Paul.

Terez
01-24-2013, 01:02 PM
But I buried Paul...

GonzoTheGreat
01-25-2013, 04:16 AM
But I buried Paul...
Some AS came along and revived her.

DGrey
03-26-2013, 10:29 PM
Did we ever get the mechanism, cause of the merging to begin with??

I think way back to theories about the crossed balefire. Possibly Moridin bonding Rand with the True Power. But with the entire body swap, neither seems likely.

Moridin and Rand are entwined threads in the pattern. Physically, spiritually, they overlap.
Obviously
Personally I think that their mythological threads are so tightly bound, as agents of the DO and Creator, that the crossed balefire jarred the pattern enough so that their threads overlapped in truth.
Regardless

Moridin wants to cease to be, to be unmade. He was killed, then brought back. But unlike the others, he wouldn't WANT to be brought back. He WANTED to be undone, with everything else, permanently. Annihilation. He wanted to disappear.

I assert that when he came back he had already unmade as much of his human soul as he could. What little was left, in a shell that even looked like Rand, was closely bound to both Rand and the Dark One. He could hear the DO's commands in his mind, endlessly draw the true power so that his eyes swam in the markings (and that the DO couldn't disconnect fast enough to save himself).

When the DO's connection was closed, and Rand's body died, I think it pulled Moridin's soul in 2--the soul that on the deepest level WANTED to be dispersed anyway. One wisp locked in Rand's dying body, one locked with the dark one through the true power. Or maybe all of it locked away. Anyway Moridin did not have enough of a soul left in that moment to fill out his healthy body. That's why 'Rand' never even regained consciousness.

Real rand, who had just spent hours fighting as pure spirit, and who was literally empowered by the Creator with the evident ability to influence the pattern around him, would have had little trouble packing up that spirit and dropping it into the empty shell that was literally already overlapping with the old one through whatever bond he and Moridin had.

tmikel
04-02-2013, 02:08 PM
I think if there is an answer, it lies somewhere in the workings of the game Sha'rah.