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fionwe1987
01-24-2013, 01:27 AM
Stop mousing over threads and finish the damn books!









Someone at DM mentioned the parallel between Lan and Egwene in the Last Battle. Both won by "sheating the sword" in a way. So I did some digging:

Egwene reached to her side, and slipped something long, white and slender from the leather case tied to her belt. A fluted rod, Vora’s sa’angreal. It felt comfortable in her hand, familiar. Though she had only used this sa’angreal once, she felt as if it had claimed her and she it. During the fight against the Seanchan, this had been her weapon. For the first time, she understood why a soldier might feel a bond with his sword.

Interestingly, it seems Egwene had unknowingly bonded the sa'angreal to her just like Demandred had. Just another way Egwene is set up as Demandred's parallel as well, in this book.


Next, we have:

At the very center of the explosion, Leane found a column of crystal as wide as an ancient leatherleaf tree, rising some fifty feet in the air. Frozen at its center was a fluted rod, Vora’s sa’angreal.

Vora's wand was literally sheathed in a column of light where Egwene stood, in the end. She more or less impaled herself with her own sword to defeat the Shadow.

And then:
Logain stumbled to a halt amid the people. The air stank of burned flesh and dead Trollocs. “The Heights are gone?” he asked.
“Gone,” Androl said reluctantly from beside him. “The earthquakes took them.”

The last embrace of the Mother took the only remnants of Egwene...

One of the more successful aspects of this book was such parallels and symbolic mirroring between various characters. Very nice. Maybe we can start collecting more?

ShadowbaneX
01-24-2013, 08:50 AM
Interestingly, it seems Egwene had unknowingly bonded the sa'angreal to her just like Demandred had. Just another way Egwene is set up as Demandred's parallel as well, in this book.

That's a stretch.

Egwene's talking about how someone might come to care for a weapon or a tool that they use a great deal, not the supposed link that Demandred added to his sa'angreal to keep Taim from coming to kick his ass. It's an emotional attachment, nothing more.

yks 6nnetu hing
01-24-2013, 08:54 AM
huh. I assumed Demandred was bluffing when he claimed that bonding-thing...

You know, considering there's no precedent that I can recall from anywhere in the series so far about bonding a sa'angreal. Even Callandor can and has been used by someone other then the Dragon, even though all the Prophesise say otherwise and Wards and precautions were set in place to avoid such an occurrence.

ShadowbaneX
01-24-2013, 08:57 AM
I think it's a bluff as well. I think Demandred's sa'angreal is probably a fairly recent creation. If he had Shara under his control and from what we have Rand say to Elayne about the Seed, it's quite possible that he had the time to create it, with a full circle, accounting for it's strength. The lack of opposition in his area, the secrecy, etc, could allow him to be weakened for the months that would have been required.

fionwe1987
01-24-2013, 10:19 AM
We've had clues before, of personal greals:

The other was a seated woman in age-darkened ivory, her legs folded in front of her, her exposed knees bare, but with hair so long and luxuriant she could not have been more muffled in the heaviest cloak. It was not even as strong as the turtle, but she found it very appealing. One hand rested on a knee, palm up and fingers arranged so the thumb touched the flps of the middle two fingers, while the other hand was lifted, the first two fingers raised and the others folded. The whole figure carried an air of supreme dignity, yet the delicately worked face showed amusement and delight. Maybe it had been made for a particular woman? It seemed personal, somehow. Perhaps they had done that, in the Age of Legends.

As for how its possible, it does seem that since people have to invest their own power to create them, angreals and sa'angreals can have... personality. Not as such, but more along the lines of an imprint, you know?

And when you use a sa'angreal, you more or less link with it. The process is exactly the same, you embrace the source through the object. Its almost like the object is a stand-in for a person, with their power vested in it.

ShadowbaneX
01-24-2013, 10:55 AM
Yeah, but Egwene is more "Charlene" in Full Metal Jacket territory, not forming a bond to a sa'angreal with the One Power so it kills anyone that uses it against them.

Lost One
01-27-2013, 06:47 PM
Yeah, but Egwene is more "Charlene" in Full Metal Jacket territory, not forming a bond to a sa'angreal with the One Power so it kills anyone that uses it against them.

A most excellent reference to "Charlene" in FMJ. It was an emotional attachment, not a physical one with Egwene and Vora's Wand.

fionwe1987
01-27-2013, 10:07 PM
Yeah, but Egwene is more "Charlene" in Full Metal Jacket territory, not forming a bond to a sa'angreal with the One Power so it kills anyone that uses it against them.
We don't know either way. The wording used is very suggestive, though. She does feel an emotional attachment to it, but she also says she senses that it has claimed her, and she it. That's a little more than an emotional attachment.

ShadowbaneX
01-27-2013, 10:43 PM
Nope, that's exactly an emotional attachment.

fionwe1987
01-27-2013, 11:26 PM
Nope, that's exactly an emotional attachment.
If she'd said the sa'angreal was in love with her and she with it, perhaps. Claiming it implies more, in Light of Demandred and Elayne's quotes.

ShadowbaneX
01-27-2013, 11:53 PM
Ok, for the sake of argument, let's go with the notion that there's some sort of non-emotional bond that forms between Egwene & Vora's sa'angreal. What's the point? Eggy's dead, she used it to create the Flame of Tar Valon weave (stupidest waves name ever) and then it go trapped in Crystal and then collapsed in to a whole.

What purpose did this bond serve?

fionwe1987
01-28-2013, 03:28 AM
Ok, for the sake of argument, let's go with the notion that there's some sort of non-emotional bond that forms between Egwene & Vora's sa'angreal. What's the point? Eggy's dead, she used it to create the Flame of Tar Valon weave (stupidest waves name ever) and then it go trapped in Crystal and then collapsed in to a whole.

What purpose did this bond serve?
About the same as Demandred's bond to Sakarnen did?

Zombie Sammael
01-28-2013, 04:05 AM
About the same as Demandred's bond to Sakarnen did?

Which is to say it stopped anyone else from using it?

GonzoTheGreat
01-28-2013, 04:39 AM
What purpose did this bond serve?
It stopped Egwene from stepping aside and then continuing the fight. Without that bond, she would still live. That's useful, isn't it? :D

Daekyras
01-28-2013, 07:00 AM
Which is to say it stopped anyone else from using it?

Seconded.
As nice an idea as this is, the demandred quote makes it clear that it was something he DID to the Sa'angreal.

To me this means it required a weave(possibly similar to a bond) that connected or attuned the Sa'angreal to him. Unless he was faking it of course.

Egwene just seems to be talking about a personal affinity she has picked up for the wand. Like a favourite hairbrush etc..

Boli
01-29-2013, 03:57 AM
One interesting point not discussed was the Sa'Angreal was NAMED Vora's. The big Sa'Angreal were named true, but this had a person's name attached to it.

Perhaps that was important?

Daekyras
01-29-2013, 04:13 AM
One interesting point not discussed was the Sa'Angreal was NAMED Vora's. The big Sa'Angreal were named true, but this had a person's name attached to it.

Perhaps that was important?

Hmm, I know this is a long shot but maybe someone named vora used to own the rod...Making it Vora's Rod...

ShadowbaneX
01-29-2013, 09:15 AM
Which easily could have been a bluff to make sure that Taim didn't use it to kick Demandred's ass with it...which is rather fitting because all of this could have just been in Taim's mind, much like Eggy's bond with Vora's sa'angreal is likely imaginary as well.