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View Full Version : Moridin's role in the Last Battle, and the true nature of DO - Spoilers


Andea
01-24-2013, 02:37 PM
Pfff... Moridin is my favourite character, and so I resent it that we are left in the dark about his role in the Last Battle. We can only speculate about it, I guess, and I'm surprised that people seem to have missed this: we don't really know what he is doing!

Just like Rand, Moridin was frozen in stasis, but what was he doing during Rand's confrontation with the Dark One? My guess is that the Dark One needed Moridin to take the form he faced Rand in during their battle in the blackness outside the Pattern. It would seem that the Dark One, being forced to battle a human being, must find a form suitable for such a confrontation. Otherwise how should the Dark One, among other things, speak intelligibly to a human being?

Along such lines we can probably also explain why Shaidar Haran was introduced in the book: to make the Dark One's manifestation in the world plausible. Just as the Dark One needed Moridin for his acts against Rand outside the Pattern, so He needed Shaidar Haran to be present in the world of the Pattern. We've seen on previous occaions where the speech of the Dark One appears in the world that Shaidar Haran is also present (when, for instance, Moghidien suffered the creation of her mindtrap).

Also, one particular phrase has stuck in my mind, from towards the end of AMoL, when Rand finally knows "all the secrets of The Dark One" and understands that The Dark One "had never been evil". This cannot but create tension with the evil manifestations of the Dark One. Or can it be that The Dark One is in fact a force coaxed to do evil, but which is essentially neither good nor evil? For recall: it is Lanfear, one of the most corrupt antagonists in the novel, that first untaps this force.

It is at this place that one might begin finding contradictions in the book...

GonzoTheGreat
01-25-2013, 05:20 AM
Just imagine what the situation will be when, in another Turn, it is Gawyn rather than Lanfear who opens the Bore.

Mort
01-25-2013, 07:31 AM
Also, one particular phrase has stuck in my mind, from towards the end of AMoL, when Rand finally knows "all the secrets of The Dark One" and understands that The Dark One "had never been evil". This cannot but create tension with the evil manifestations of the Dark One. Or can it be that The Dark One is in fact a force coaxed to do evil, but which is essentially neither good nor evil? For recall: it is Lanfear, one of the most corrupt antagonists in the novel, that first untaps this force.

It is at this place that one might begin finding contradictions in the book...

The nature of the DO has been discusses elsewhere on this sub-forum about the DO being evil or not, I just can't find it amidst all the threads popping up everywhere.

My take on the DO being Evil is this though: The DO is a natural force of chaos, that needs to exist in the world. To someone from the lights perspective who sees the manifestations of this chaos believes it is evil lurking about. And maybe the manifestations are.
The difference Rand believed in the end though was that the DO wasn't evil as in sinister and want to be a party pooper. The DO simply is what it is. Much like gravity isn't evil for killing someone who takes a long fall. And we need gravity. Like human beings in the WoT universe needs the chaos as well as the order of the light to be what they are.

Chaos used for lack of a better term. I guess the DO could also be Change, since the DO would bring about the destruction of the wheel and end the never-ending turnings that doesn't really change anything. Just spreads the cycles out over vast amounts of time. Everything that has been will be again.

Enigma
01-25-2013, 07:43 AM
I don't have the book in front of me but I though that the sentence read that the Dark One was not the enemy and never had been, not that he was not evil. The DO is certainly a force of chaos but its more than that. He seems to like and enjoy inflicting suffering for suffering sake. Surely a force of chaos alone would cause good from time to time even if by accident.

Mort
01-25-2013, 08:06 AM
I don't have the book in front of me but I though that the sentence read that the Dark One was not the enemy and never had been, not that he was not evil. The DO is certainly a force of chaos but its more than that. He seems to like and enjoy inflicting suffering for suffering sake. Surely a force of chaos alone would cause good from time to time even if by accident.

Yeah I double checked it now. Says enemy.

"He understood, finally, that the Dark One was not the enemy. It never had been."

A page earlier:
"But the vision Rand himself had created - the one without the Dark One - was truth. If he did as he wished, he would leave men no better than the Dark One himself."

Andea
01-25-2013, 01:42 PM
Ok for the correction!
But I don't think it changes much :) Do you believe it is rather human agency that turns the Dark One's essence to evil purposes?

Ishara
01-27-2013, 01:29 PM
I don't have the book in front of me but I though that the sentence read that the Dark One was not the enemy and never had been, not that he was not evil. The DO is certainly a force of chaos but its more than that. He seems to like and enjoy inflicting suffering for suffering sake. Surely a force of chaos alone would cause good from time to time even if by accident.

Absolutely. Chaos is of vital importance, especially to a cyclical universe like WoT. Without chaos, there is no randomness, there is no chance. No opportunity for change.

Mort
01-27-2013, 03:11 PM
Absolutely. Chaos is of vital importance, especially to a cyclical universe like WoT. Without chaos, there is no randomness, there is no chance. No opportunity for change.

There isn't really any change either with a cyclical universe.

GonzoTheGreat
01-28-2013, 05:04 AM
But the Wheel of Time is not really cyclical, it is more of a spiral.

hippie-joe
01-28-2013, 09:15 AM
what ever happened to shaidar haran? seems like the last time i read of him he was having rebelous thoughts, then gone. where did he go?

GonzoTheGreat
01-28-2013, 09:20 AM
He got discarded. Rand found his corpse while sneaking up on the DO.

Dom
01-28-2013, 09:42 AM
what ever happened to shaidar haran? seems like the last time i read of him he was having rebelous thoughts, then gone. where did he go?

That sounds more like the gholam in Ebou Dar than like Shaidar Haran.

Shaidar Haran's mind/essence was the DO's, it was only a physical vessel for him to use within the Pattern, imbued with a small amount of His essence. Not sure what made you think SH was ever "rebellious".

Ishara
01-28-2013, 12:47 PM
There isn't really any change either with a cyclical universe.

Sure there is! Rand could always turn, there is always free will and choice. The battle is predestined, but not the outcome.

padfoot89
01-28-2013, 01:07 PM
Not sure what made you think SH was ever "rebellious".

I think there was something somewhere about SH not able to stay away from Shayol Ghul for long and wanting to break that link.

Davian93
01-28-2013, 01:09 PM
I think there was something somewhere about SH not able to stay away from Shayol Ghul for long and wanting to break that link.

That was more about the DO being frustrated that the Seals were still slowing him down...and that SH couldn't freely manipulate things without having to go "recharge" at Shayol Ghul.

hippie-joe
01-28-2013, 03:42 PM
That sounds more like the gholam in Ebou Dar than like Shaidar Haran.

Shaidar Haran's mind/essence was the DO's, it was only a physical vessel for him to use within the Pattern, imbued with a small amount of His essence. Not sure what made you think SH was ever "rebellious".

it was when he was watching who ever send the shaido to gheldan. iirc but then i guess dav might have it on his post above. i just got the sense that he wanted to go his own way.

and now that i think about it i do seem to recall the husk.