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djrice24
01-24-2013, 05:18 PM
Space added here to avoid spoiling those who haven't finished reading AMoL and mouse over this topic. -- Marie
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So I just finished aMoL and one thing really puzzled me at the end. After waking up as Morindin, Rand takes off for adventures on a horse. While riding Rand attempts to use Saidin and the True Power and finds he no longer has either ability. He then just "thinks" of the tabac being lighted and suddenly it is.

How did Rand do this? Is this a new form of power we have not seen before? What is the implication of this?

Okay, now that I explained the situation, here is my view. I noticed in aMoL that Rand's abilities and accomplishments rest less and less on his ability to channel large amounts of Saidin as they rest on his will.

After making peace with himself on Dragonmount he seems to have a new ability to enact positive change around him simply by his will (good things happening, plants coming back to life, etc.). Its like he is a small conduit of the Creator's positive energies.

This "view" that he has newfound powers to bend the pattern to his will is further supported by his battle with the Dark One. Most of the battle concerns Rand and the Dark One presenting competing visions of the future and attempting to make those visions reality simply by force of will. There is no straight-up channeling until the very end when Rand uses the massive combined forces of Saidin, Saidar and the True Power to repair the bore.

It seems that Sanderson took a page of out Toilken's LOTR when writing the final book. In LOTR, magic does not really revolve around spells and skills and it revolves around the innate authority of the caster in the world. A great example is how Gandalf has greater powers when he returns as Gandalf the White.

So, in closing, does anyone get this? Do I present a valid explanation? I have to admit that I like the idea of Rand having some kind of newfound power. I like that he now has time to just live, but it would bother me if he just became a total nobody now that the last battle is over.

SauceyBlueConfetti
01-24-2013, 05:49 PM
Welcome. Nice. I like the ideas.

Fourth Age Historian
01-24-2013, 07:03 PM
It was interesting how they built Rand's ability to influence the Pattern throughout the series, up until his confrontation with the DO and the implied ability to manipulate the Pattern in its entirety.

I assumed that the tabac lighting AND the body swap were both part of that. I think the body swap with Moridin was the easiest path, but that he probably could've done it with anyone at that point.

A recent thought I've been turning over in my head is: is this linked in any way to his extreme strength as ta'veren? Is it possible that the skills he was learning were how to make that work for him? It sort of seemed that way in the tree-growing scene and the cagey way he discussed that with people. It would take a lot of research to really make my case for this, and the thought that Mat had about not being ta'veren any longer might contradict it. This musing bears further thought...

djrice24
01-24-2013, 08:35 PM
I agree about the ta'veren part. I initially thought that was what was going on in previous books. I think even Rand explained it as such in a previous book. His positive ta'veren abilities counteracting the Dark One's touch.

However, I think the effects he started to have on the pattern seemed to exceed even that of even a ta'veren. Plus, he seemed to have some sort of control over his powers (like when he sang and was able to make all the plants grow when meeting with Tuon). Either he figured out how to actively control his ta'veren abilities (something that has not happened before) or it was something else we had not seen before.

His ability to create alternate realities while weaving patterns of the wheel itself (just as the Dark One was doing) makes me think he reached some new level, or kind, of power.

It is too bad there will be no more books. Rand is not going to be able to hide his identity for long. He at least appears to be a completely new thing in the pattern (similar to Padin Fain in a way). A successful soul transfer using the one power and not the true power. Plus, he is going to have to make contract with Min, Aviendha and Elyane. At the very least to see/raise his children.

I doubt the new Amyrlin seat Cadsuane could leave such an interesting specimen alone for long ...




It was interesting how they built Rand's ability to influence the Pattern throughout the series, up until his confrontation with the DO and the implied ability to manipulate the Pattern in its entirety.

I assumed that the tabac lighting AND the body swap were both part of that. I think the body swap with Moridin was the easiest path, but that he probably could've done it with anyone at that point.

A recent thought I've been turning over in my head is: is this linked in any way to his extreme strength as ta'veren? Is it possible that the skills he was learning were how to make that work for him? It sort of seemed that way in the tree-growing scene and the cagey way he discussed that with people. It would take a lot of research to really make my case for this, and the thought that Mat had about not being ta'veren any longer might contradict it. This musing bears further thought...

Davian93
01-24-2013, 08:39 PM
Plus, he seemed to have some sort of control over his powers (like when he sang and was able to make all the plants grow when meeting with Tuon)

Well, in that part, he was just using his Voice to sing one of the growing songs from the AoL.

A simple but effective trick on his part.

djrice24
01-24-2013, 09:19 PM
I just thought of more info to support my theory.

During the battle with the DO, the text of Rand's dialogue goes from lowercase to all uppercase. By the end he is speaking in all uppercase, just like the DO. This obviously is a sign that he is winning the battle. I also see it as a sign that he is starting to exert his will or displaying some new god-like level of power (the only all-uppercase dialogue I can remember is by either the DO, or those lines that are supposedly by the Creator in one of the early books).

As an aside, where do the lines by the Creator appear? The end of the first book? I've read them on here and seen the disagreements about their nature. I just don't remember where they are in the books.

Also, another aside. Does anyone remember all the locations in the books were the DO speaks directly? To Rand, one of the forsaken, anyone. I think the times the all-uppercase treatment is used are very limited.


So I just finished aMoL and one thing really puzzled me at the end. After waking up as Morindin, Rand takes off for adventures on a horse. While riding Rand attempts to use Saidin and the True Power and finds he no longer has either ability. He then just "thinks" of the tabac being lighted and suddenly it is.

How did Rand do this? Is this a new form of power we have not seen before? What is the implication of this?

Okay, now that I explained the situation, here is my view. I noticed in aMoL that Rand's abilities and accomplishments rest less and less on his ability to channel large amounts of Saidin as they rest on his will.

After making peace with himself on Dragonmount he seems to have a new ability to enact positive change around him simply by his will (good things happening, plants coming back to life, etc.). Its like he is a small conduit of the Creator's positive energies.

This "view" that he has newfound powers to bend the pattern to his will is further supported by his battle with the Dark One. Most of the battle concerns Rand and the Dark One presenting competing visions of the future and attempting to make those visions reality simply by force of will. There is no straight-up channeling until the very end when Rand uses the massive combined forces of Saidin, Saidar and the True Power to repair the bore.

It seems that Sanderson took a page of out Toilken's LOTR when writing the final book. In LOTR, magic does not really revolve around spells and skills and it revolves around the innate authority of the caster in the world. A great example is how Gandalf has greater powers when he returns as Gandalf the White.

So, in closing, does anyone get this? Do I present a valid explanation? I have to admit that I like the idea of Rand having some kind of newfound power. I like that he now has time to just live, but it would bother me if he just became a total nobody now that the last battle is over.

Davian93
01-24-2013, 09:24 PM
The Creator's voice at the end of tEotW is in Chapter 51 but I'm simply not motivated to do the rest of said request...though this would definitely be a good project for you.

djrice24
01-24-2013, 09:31 PM
The Creator's voice at the end of tEotW is in Chapter 51 but I'm simply not motivated to do the rest of said request...though this would definitely be a good project for you.

Thanks! Yea, I've started to look through the books. My only problem is that half are in storage lol. Plus half are in paperback and the other half are hardcover.

Terez
01-24-2013, 11:20 PM
AMOL, end of chapter 23 for the Creator's voice. As for the all caps Dark One voice, it's only seen in the LOC prologue (first scene) and in ACOS 25. That's from memory, so don't think me any more industrious than Dav. ;)

Demon
01-24-2013, 11:48 PM
I love that the creator spoke then.

Terez
01-24-2013, 11:58 PM
I don't.

Demon
01-25-2013, 12:05 AM
and i respect that.

Cortar
01-25-2013, 02:34 AM
I don't.

Was it confirmed that it was the creator?

If it wasn't I could see it being something like Rand himself at the end of the battle with the DO, when he was most powerful. Maybe he had the ability to give himself a word of encourage in the past?

Anyways, I think the Tabac lighting ability was a residual effect of manipulating the pattern directly on such a vast scale. But I think his ability to so was fading as soon as his battle was done. The body swap and the lighting were probably the last things he could have done.

Demon
01-25-2013, 05:24 PM
Naw. Rand can do whatever he wants now.

Fourth Age Historian
01-25-2013, 07:32 PM
Another wacky thought about this: Rand intentionally removed his ability to channel, did the body swap, and also intentionally left himself a part of his ability to affect the Pattern while he was finishing up sealing the bore. He had the opportunity to change the entire Pattern and instead altered just this one small thing. He cheated a little and gave himself , we'll call it a 'severance package.'

eht slat meit
01-25-2013, 11:22 PM
Doesn't seem all that complex to me - it was made obvious as Rand reforged the Bore that he had created something new and greater from Saidin/Saidar by braiding them together... the Light. Left ambiguous in the telling, it would appear that it requires no weaves or handling like its two bases, but is simply there for him at a thought.

Given that the ability to channel is tied to one's soul, it seems that he took that with him to Moridin's body?

Demon
01-26-2013, 12:52 AM
But he isnt channeling.

eht slat meit
01-26-2013, 02:21 AM
But he isnt channeling.

Correct, he's not channeling Saidar/Saidin.

He's channeling the Light, which is something entirely above and beyond the scope of normal people.

maacaroni
01-26-2013, 05:49 AM
Correct, he's not channeling Saidar/Saidin.

He's channeling the Light, which is something entirely above and beyond the scope of normal people.

I would go a step further. Rand discovers that the Dark One is not an entity but a force. A requisite force, perhaps along the lines of Vishnu (the destroyer). What he is using is an amalgamation of all three. And you can't see True Power weaves.

Just worth noting that according to BS' recent twitter chat that this was deliberately left ambiguous - it is open to interpretation by the reader and I doubt we will ever get an answer.

Tollingtoy
01-26-2013, 07:14 AM
When I read this, I immediately connecting the pipe lighting to Perrin's mastery of Tel'aran'rhiod, where he thinks of something and it is done. I know that TAR exists on all worlds at the same time, is it possible that Rand has "woken up from the dream" and he exists in the normal world the way that Perrin does in TAR? It seems to me that there is some sort of connection here

GonzoTheGreat
01-26-2013, 08:44 AM
Wouldn't that make him "lose his humanity"?

Perhaps he's going to become a gerbil, or something.

Rand al'Fain
01-26-2013, 10:37 AM
Wouldn't that make him "lose his humanity"?

Perhaps he's going to become a gerbil, or something.

The Gerbil Reborn?

Demon
01-26-2013, 01:15 PM
Lets send this idea to Harriet as a continuation of the WOT.

Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon
01-26-2013, 02:05 PM
By the time he lights that pipe, Rand is the Pattern. He doesn't need any sort of "power" (whether new or known) because he is the tabac, the pipe, and the fire.

Throughout the book, he talks about how the Pattern is balance (I'm sorry for not bringing any quotes to this - not enough time at the moment). The Pattern is balance, and since Rand is the champion/surrogate of the Pattern, his Ta'vereness causes balance.

Throughout the series, he brings good and bad "miracles" wherever he goes. Once the DO gains more influence to bring 'bad' to the world, Rand's presence begins to only bring 'good' (to balance the Pattern).

The most important thing that happened to Rand was learning - during his battle with the DO - that the world needs both 'good' and 'bad.' Upon making this realization, Rand is able to "defeat" the DO and internalize the 'bad' to go along with the 'good' (that Rand had "become" through his epiphany on Dragonmount).

His taking control of, then melding with, Moridin was the physical manifestation of this becoming the balance, the Pattern.

padfoot89
01-27-2013, 01:45 AM
Rand feels relief when he finds out that he can't channel. Anyone know why he would feel so ?

Zombie Sammael
01-27-2013, 05:36 AM
Rand feels relief when he finds out that he can't channel. Anyone know why he would feel so ?

His phenomenal strength in the Power would make him stand out considerably. That, and the fact that channelling never really brought him anything except pain.

kivo
01-27-2013, 05:31 PM
My interpretation of this was that Moridin's body was burnt out when he/callandor were used as a filter to weave saidin, saidar and the true power all together. Hence no more channeling.

However, Rand being the quick study he's always been learned how to manipulate reality itself through the unique understanding of the pattern that he gained during his world creating duel with the Dark One.

He doesn't need to channel. He can do something better.

neurotopia
01-27-2013, 06:53 PM
Hey I don't have my book in town with me, but does ANYbody channel after the Bore is closed?

SauceyBlueConfetti
01-27-2013, 07:33 PM
Nyn tried healing "Rand". just the first that immediately comes to mind

hippie-joe
01-27-2013, 07:40 PM
His taking control of, then melding with, Moridin was the physical manifestation of this becoming the balance, the Pattern.

i like this idea.

as for the pipe, the myth everyone understands is that the creator bound the DO at the beginning of creation. my line of thinking is that in binding the DO just as the creator did he gained the or some of the creators powers. he also got to play with the raw forms of saidin and saidar so that is my other thought. idk

Dom
01-27-2013, 08:00 PM
Hey I don't have my book in town with me, but does ANYbody channel after the Bore is closed?

Yes, and we had a confirmation prior to AMOL that the Fourth Age isn't the one in which channeling will disappear.

GonzoTheGreat
01-28-2013, 04:11 AM
Hey I don't have my book in town with me, but does ANYbody channel after the Bore is closed?
Elayne and Min did show up pretty soon from hundreds of miles away. Either they came by gateway, which requires channeling, or someone invented a high speed train connection in a really big hurry indeed.

Sodas
01-29-2013, 01:14 AM
Space added here to avoid spoiling those who haven't finished reading AMoL and mouse over this topic. -- Marie
.
.
.


So I just finished aMoL and one thing really puzzled me at the end. After waking up as Morindin, Rand takes off for adventures on a horse. While riding Rand attempts to use Saidin and the True Power and finds he no longer has either ability. He then just "thinks" of the tabac being lighted and suddenly it is.

How did Rand do this? Is this a new form of power we have not seen before? What is the implication of this?

Okay, now that I explained the situation, here is my view. I noticed in aMoL that Rand's abilities and accomplishments rest less and less on his ability to channel large amounts of Saidin as they rest on his will.

After making peace with himself on Dragonmount he seems to have a new ability to enact positive change around him simply by his will (good things happening, plants coming back to life, etc.). Its like he is a small conduit of the Creator's positive energies.

This "view" that he has newfound powers to bend the pattern to his will is further supported by his battle with the Dark One. Most of the battle concerns Rand and the Dark One presenting competing visions of the future and attempting to make those visions reality simply by force of will. There is no straight-up channeling until the very end when Rand uses the massive combined forces of Saidin, Saidar and the True Power to repair the bore.

It seems that Sanderson took a page of out Toilken's LOTR when writing the final book. In LOTR, magic does not really revolve around spells and skills and it revolves around the innate authority of the caster in the world. A great example is how Gandalf has greater powers when he returns as Gandalf the White.

So, in closing, does anyone get this? Do I present a valid explanation? I have to admit that I like the idea of Rand having some kind of newfound power. I like that he now has time to just live, but it would bother me if he just became a total nobody now that the last battle is over.

I get it, but I'm of the opinion that it's not what was going on. Granted, it would be cool, but it would give Rand away at some point and then re-complicate his life.

Rand thought of the pipe being lit.

It seemed to me, upon first impression to be T'A'R like in that one could just think of something happening and it would. And that is when it occured to me that Lanfear spilled the beans....

"We strike together," Lanfear said softly. "The barriers between worlds have been broken here. They will be able to fight back unless we are quick. We must kill them at the same time."

In other words, the barrier between T'A'R (where Lanfear and Perrin were) was broken down inside the Pit of Doom. That isn't the only thing that was unusual about T'A'R near SG. There was the dusts of soldiers fighting in the valley which normally wouldn't happen in T'A'R.

Rand won, healed the prison of the Dark One, but that doesn't mean that the barrier was suddenly healed. Just like the cracks didn't just fade from the balefire effect.

Heck, remember the plants that sprung up to cover Aviendha's attack on Graendal? Those were pretty convenient as well. When Aviendha needed those plants, they sprung up dramatically to hide her approach. They were still there, mentioned just prior to Rand lighting his Tabac.

He regarded his pipe, riding up a little incline to the side of Thakan'dar, now covered in plants. No way to light the tabac. He inspected it for a moment in the darkness, then thought of the pipe being lit. And it was.

Emphasis added : mine.

So my conclusion is that it was the break down in the barrier between T'A'R and Shayol Ghul that resulted in Rand being able to light the tabac with his will.

SauceyBlueConfetti
01-29-2013, 09:03 AM
So my conclusion is that it was the break down in the barrier between T'A'R and Shayol Ghul that resulted in Rand being able to light the tabac with his will.

I think you got it. This makes total sense to me. I missed the part about the plants, I just assumed it was the world reverting from the various 'touches' of the DO, but your thoughts make a lot of sense.

Brita
01-29-2013, 09:49 AM
the myth everyone understands is that the creator bound the DO at the beginning of creation.

When I read this I imagined (vividly) the DO as a victim in all of this. Picture two immortal entities living their immortal and unfathomable lives. One of them get bored and decides it wants pets. This entity draws up the plans to create mortal life but realizes the plan is unbalanced and that it needs a counterweight to make it work. It invites a fellow immortal being to a supernatural version of afternoon kaf, roofies the kaf and binds it's guest to the pet project. Then names the captive Dark One so the creation will naturally hate and fear the trapped being for as long as the wheel turns, when the "Dark One" had just come over for a friendly visit.

No wonder the DO wants to destroy it all. I would be pissed too.

Davian93
01-29-2013, 09:52 AM
When I read this I imagined (vividly) the DO as a victim in all of this. Picture two immortal entities living their immortal and unfathomable lives. One of them get bored and decides he wants pets. He draws up the plans to create mortal life but realizes his plan is unbalanced and that he needs a counterweight to make it work. He invites the DO to a supernatural version of afternoon kaf, roofies the kaf and binds his guest to his pet project. The names him Dark One.

No wonder the DO wants to destroy it all. I would be pissed too.

History is definitely written by the victor.

GonzoTheGreat
01-29-2013, 10:29 AM
No wonder the DO wants to destroy it all. I would be pissed too.
But the Creator went on to make more worlds. And then had the problem: how to invite more friends over for a visit?

Daekyras
01-29-2013, 10:33 AM
My interpretation of this was that Moridin's body was burnt out when he/callandor were used as a filter to weave saidin, saidar and the true power all together. Hence no more channeling.

However, Rand being the quick study he's always been learned how to manipulate reality itself through the unique understanding of the pattern that he gained during his world creating duel with the Dark One.

He doesn't need to channel. He can do something better.

Can we call him "Rand the Blue Rider"?

Because as we all know "there is no magic."

padfoot89
01-29-2013, 11:05 AM
When I read this I imagined (vividly) the DO as a victim in all of this. Picture two immortal entities living their immortal and unfathomable lives. One of them get bored and decides it wants pets. This entity draws up the plans to create mortal life but realizes the plan is unbalanced and that it needs a counterweight to make it work. It invites a fellow immortal being to a supernatural version of afternoon kaf, roofies the kaf and binds it's guest to the pet project. Then names the captive Dark One so the creation will naturally hate and fear the trapped being for as long as the wheel turns, when the "Dark One" had just come over for a friendly visit.

No wonder the DO wants to destroy it all. I would be pissed too.

Perhaps the DO would have a better chance if he'd just explained it all to Rand.

"THIS IS ALL JUST A BIG MISUNDERSTANDING...."

Brita
01-29-2013, 11:09 AM
Perhaps the DO would have a better chance if he'd just explained it all to Rand.

"THIS IS ALL JUST A BIG MISUNDERSTANDING...."

Exactly. Or maybe in one of his Pattern Interpretations, he hid HELP ME in the weave.

GonzoTheGreat
01-29-2013, 11:24 AM
Maybe the DO fooled Rand, and actually won.
Now Rand is Nae'blis, and he is being granted mastery over the world that the DO remade before leaving for good.

Davian93
01-29-2013, 11:27 AM
Maybe the DO fooled Rand, and actually won.
Now Rand is Nae'blis, and he is being granted mastery over the world that the DO remade before leaving for good.

Nah, this is all a fever dream that Rand is having ever since Narg stabbed him in the barn in tEotW.

Rand never actually got his sword up in time.

codetoast
02-07-2013, 02:07 PM
I like the aeil idea that life is a dream. Rand has simply mastered the dream. Its RJ's way of telling us that Rand won. The contest between him and the dark one was to make a better world. And by making a world in which Rand's pipe is lit, that just confirms to us that Rand's imagined world will come to pass. His peace will work, his schools will thrive, and he'll never need matches.

Rand al'Fain
02-07-2013, 06:50 PM
I like the aeil idea that life is a dream. Rand has simply mastered the dream. Its RJ's way of telling us that Rand won. The contest between him and the dark one was to make a better world. And by making a world in which Rand's pipe is lit, that just confirms to us that Rand's imagined world will come to pass. His peace will work, his schools will thrive, and he'll never need matches.

Matches are still pretty new, and not that widely spread I thought.

So, no more flint and steel for his pipe?

Sodas
02-10-2013, 10:45 PM
I like the aeil idea that life is a dream. Rand has simply mastered the dream. Its RJ's way of telling us that Rand won. The contest between him and the dark one was to make a better world. And by making a world in which Rand's pipe is lit, that just confirms to us that Rand's imagined world will come to pass. His peace will work, his schools will thrive, and he'll never need matches.

I don't think this is the case. If Rand mastered the dream, he could have done anything he wanted, including touching Saidin/Saidar. Why be able to light his pipe but not touch the Source? Answer is it isn't consistent, and hence the problem.

Weird Harold
02-11-2013, 12:01 AM
I don't think this is the case. If Rand mastered the dream, he could have done anything he wanted, including touching Saidin/Saidar. Why be able to light his pipe but not touch the Source? Answer is it isn't consistent, and hence the problem.
OR...

He could have NOT done anything he didn't want to -- like Channel.

If Rand is controlling reality like a dream, then he doesn't have to be consistent or rational; reality works like he wants it to. If he wants to be able to think his pipe aflame and not be able to Channel, then that is the way things will be.

infgeoax
02-19-2013, 01:26 AM
When I read this, I immediately connecting the pipe lighting to Perrin's mastery of Tel'aran'rhiod, where he thinks of something and it is done. I know that TAR exists on all worlds at the same time, is it possible that Rand has "woken up from the dream" and he exists in the normal world the way that Perrin does in TAR? It seems to me that there is some sort of connection here
Good point. Maybe Rand changed the real world a little during the sealing and any body (with a sufficiently strong will) can do it too. ;)

infgeoax
02-19-2013, 01:41 AM
Perhaps the DO would have a better chance if he'd just explained it all to Rand.

"THIS IS ALL JUST A BIG MISUNDERSTANDING...."

It won't work anyway. Rand is the Creator('s pet).

Bane Darkwulf
02-20-2013, 02:18 PM
Rand still has the Bond with the three girls, and has been able to send more than just feelings across for a while now, was still fairly close to the funeral pyre. the simplest answers are sometimes the easiest. He sent the thought across to the girls, and one lit it for him.

ckparrothead
03-08-2013, 02:21 PM
The theory that the barrier between TAR and Reality around that area is still weak and so thinking something can make it happen...does make a certain bit of sense. It's plausible.

Personally I think who Rand is now, and what he can do, ties in with the idea of who Nakomi was, and what her powers were.

When Rand entered the void where the Dark One was, and the two of them went through their little creationism yoga exercises, I think Rand became what he really is. Or maybe I should say the experience revealed to Rand who he really is.

There have always been suggestions throughout the books that the Dragon isn't just the Creator's champion, but rather the Creator made flesh. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but you never hear the Dark One ever refer to the Creator. He's just always talking about and obsessed with the Dragon, his "old adversary". Doesn't anyone find that kind of weird? I mean, you're the Dark One. You exist outside of creation. You're trying to break what the Creator wrought. Isn't the Creator your real adversary?

I guess it's always been assumed that the Creator was just one identity, one personality, but the distinctly male/female themes and forces at play throughout the books and throughout the world suggest differently. There are actually three Powers in the world: Saidin, Saidar and the True Power. Rand, Nakomi and the Dark One...with Rand and Nakomi making up the two faces of the Creator.

The details are up for speculation. Clearly Nakomi is old, she might have been the Dragon before Rand al'Therin. For Rand al'Therin is just one Dragon. There weren't any other personalities or memories hanging around in there. There was a Dragon, he failed his job, and so the Wheel spun that particular Dragon out again whole. Same person. Same soul. Same memories. Got a little weird for a while but that was all part of it.

And if it seems strange that Nakomi would have essentially creationist powers and yet not use them but extraordinarily subtly and conservatively throughout this entire history...it's because she knew what Rand knows, now. It's not for the Creator to interfere with choice. By doing that, you take away from the creation.

Anyway. My two cents.

mogi67
03-08-2013, 03:03 PM
Random thought - but did RJ ever say whether the Creator was finite or infinite?

Dom
03-08-2013, 06:25 PM
There have always been suggestions throughout the books that the Dragon isn't just the Creator's champion, but rather the Creator made flesh.

Those who suggested that were obviously unaware that RJ confirmed years ago the Creator and Shai'tan are both outside the Pattern...