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djrice24
01-24-2013, 09:53 PM
We all know that the wheel supposedly forces the Dragon to be reborn at the end of each age to fight the Dark One. We know this happened at the end of the second age (the age of legends) and the end of the third age (the age in the books).

Do we know if it happens EXACTLY like this each age (i.e., epic Dragon v. Dark One fight)? The people in the Age of Legends seemed to have no knowledge of the Dark One until the Bore was formed. Was the Dark One actually on the loose, but re-imprisoned (and the bore repaired) at the end of the First Age? (an age we know little about). How where there no legends or myths during the Age of Legends about what happened at the end of the First Age?

I guess ages could vary in length and the second age could have been much longer than the third age (so anything from the first age is forgotten in the second age). But I'm not sure that the Dragon is reborn at the end of each age, and that he fights the Dark One at the end of each age, it would seem to suggest that some dim-wit must discover and release the Dark One (again!) at the end of each age.

If this is the case you would hope someone could make a huge marker or other long-lasting building with a message not to seek the true power, and thus you could skip the Dragon/Dark One battle EVERY age.

Davian93
01-24-2013, 09:55 PM
The DO has never been free. He was imprisoned by the Creator at the beginning of time. Had he ever gotten out, the Wheel would have been destroyed and there wouldnt be any Dragon rebirths.

The Ages definitely vary and they dont always end with a confrontation between the Light and Shadow. They are, however, always long enough that any memory of the previous 2nd Age would be long lost before the next 2nd Age comes around, etc etc.

Also, there are still vague myths/legends from the 1st Age around in the 3rd Age as evidenced by Thom's stories in tEotW (Mosk and Alsbet, the Queen of All,, Lenn & the Eagle, Materese the Healer, Mother of the wonderous Ind etc etc)

djrice24
01-24-2013, 09:59 PM
So the Dragon is reborn each Age but does not always have to fight the Dark One?

Also, the Dark One's true name is Shai'tan (yea, I said it, eat it Dark One). Do we know the etymology of this name, i.e., is it the Dark One's name in the old tongue?


The DO has never been free. He was imprisoned by the Creator at the beginning of time. Had he ever gotten out, the Wheel would have been destroyed and there wouldnt be any Dragon rebirths.

The Ages definitely vary and they dont always end with a confrontation between the Light and Shadow. They are, however, always long enough that any memory of the previous 2nd Age would be long lost before the next 2nd Age comes around, etc etc.

Davian93
01-24-2013, 10:04 PM
Here's an interview answer to your question:


INTERVIEW: Oct 22nd, 1998
TPOD Signing Report - Pam Basham (Paraphrased)
PAM BASHAM
Regarding the Dragon and the Dragon Reborn (and Graendal's thoughts about Ishamael's musings):

"Is this soul born in any other Age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as the Dragon/the Dragon Reborn?"

ROBERT JORDAN
This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other Ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age.

Kimon
01-24-2013, 10:05 PM
So the Dragon is reborn each Age but does not always have to fight the Dark One?

Also, the Dark One's true name is Shai'tan (yea, I said it, eat it Dark One). Do we know the etymology of this name, i.e., is it the Dark One's name in the old tongue?

Shai'tan ... Satan

Probably nothing more to the etymology than that.

djrice24
01-24-2013, 10:08 PM
I looked online and it means "adversary" in Arabic.

I was thinking more about the naming in the context of the book. They give explanations for his other names (some are obvious) but it is never mentioned where Shai'tan came from ... like was that the name for Satan/evil before the bore?

Shai'tan ... Satan

Probably nothing more to the etymology than that.

djrice24
01-24-2013, 10:11 PM
Here's an interview answer to your question:

Awesome! Thanks! So Rand will be reborn each age no matter what, but will not always have to battle the DO or fight some massive battle.

That helps explain the allusions in the book to the First Age being our age (the myths about ICBMs being thrown between Amersk and Mousk, etc., the Mercedes-Benz artifact representing greed or something like that).

Kimon
01-24-2013, 10:16 PM
I looked online and it means "adversary" in Arabic.

I was thinking more about the naming in the context of the book. They give explanations for his other names (some are obvious) but it is never mentioned where Shai'tan came from ... like was that the name for Satan/evil before the bore?

He seemed, seemingly even his name, to have slipped completely from memory by the time of the AoL. Likely Elan Morin found some fragmentary, and very old poetry, maybe even a few broken lines of the Koran, that mentioned an ancient adversary, an ancient force of nihilism. Elan's curiosity was piqued, and he kept digging until he learned too much, and then he started hinting at where others should dig to find a new source of power...

To think, had someone just proscribed him prozac maybe the DO is never rediscovered back in AoL.

confused at birth
01-24-2013, 10:24 PM
the Mercedes-Benz artifact representing greed or something like that

that kind of makes me sad, its survives for who knows how many thousands of years and then maybe two months after Egwene sees it the other other two nitwits go and get the buildng set on fire.

What happened to the rest of the artifacts after they had taken what they wanted?

Kinda sucks, kinda makes me happy cause I can't stand Mercedes

Davian93
01-24-2013, 10:25 PM
that kind of makes me sad, its survives for who knows how many thousands of years and then maybe two months after Egwene sees it the other other two nitwits go and get the buildng set on fire?

Kinda sucks, kinda makes me happy cause I cant stand Mercedes

I absolutely love my Mercedes....fantastic car.

djrice24
01-24-2013, 10:29 PM
I absolutely love my Mercedes....fantastic car.

BMW > Mercedes any day ;-)

Davian93
01-24-2013, 10:31 PM
BMW > Mercedes any day ;-)

BMWs suck monkey balls. They should have stuck with building airplanes.

confused at birth
01-24-2013, 10:32 PM
I absolutely love my Mercedes....fantastic car.

They are a lot like porsches, I think they are fine from a purely engineering view I just hate the brand, most of the people that buy them and the styling has always been off to me.

But since cars can't all look an aston martin we just have to put up with what we can afford:(

djrice24
01-24-2013, 10:38 PM
That new Ford has a grille similar to the Ashton Martin. Not sure how I feel about that ...

They are a lot like porsches, I think they are fine from a purely engineering view I just hate the brand, most of the people that buy them and the styling has always been off to me.

But since cars can't all look an aston martin we just have to put up with what we can afford:(

padfoot89
01-25-2013, 01:51 AM
Is Rand's soul always the Dragon soul? Could the next incarnation of the Dragon be from other souls ? For example, Perrin's soul or Arthur Hawking's etc ?

Dajoran
01-25-2013, 05:06 AM
Is Rand's soul always the Dragon soul? Could the next incarnation of the Dragon be from other souls ? For example, Perrin's soul or Arthur Hawking's etc ?

Rand's soul is the Dragon soul. This however does not always mean he is the Champion of Light per say.

The Dragon soul is a corrective mechanism used by the pattern when it is in serious jeopardy. The most powerful Ta'veren soul I assume.

Hawkwings soul cannot be the Dragon soul. But his soul could be spun out as a Champion of Light.

I think I've gotten all that correct... it's been a while since I've trawled through the database.

Daekyras
01-25-2013, 05:23 AM
Awesome! Thanks! So Rand will be reborn each age no matter what, but will not always have to battle the DO or fight some massive battle.

That helps explain the allusions in the book to the First Age being our age (the myths about ICBMs being thrown between Amersk and Mousk, etc., the Mercedes-Benz artifact representing greed or something like that).

What Mercedes-Benz artefact? I must have been dozing when i read that.

Also, the cars are brilliant. I love mine.

I was actually wondering- The fourth age has just started and there are still darkfriends and Black ajah still unaccounted for. What happens to them now? Surely they would keep the "faith" in him and not let his existence die out.

Do they become like satanists and live a cult like existence where all normal people think they're weirdo's and every now and then they try a "Rosemary's Baby" type stunt?

Dajoran
01-25-2013, 05:50 AM
What Mercedes-Benz artefact? I must have been dozing when i read that.

The Shadow Rising - Chapter 11

In the Museum in Tanchico

A silvery thing in another cabinet, like a three-pointed star inside a circle, was made of no substance she knew; it was softer than metal, scratched and gouged, yet even older than any of the ancient bones. From ten paces she could sense pride and vanity.

Daekyras
01-25-2013, 06:19 AM
The Shadow Rising - Chapter 11

In the Museum in Tanchico

Yup, I remember it now. Thanks Daj.

Enigma
01-25-2013, 06:56 AM
I was actually wondering- The fourth age has just started and there are still darkfriends and Black ajah still unaccounted for. What happens to them now? Surely they would keep the "faith" in him and not let his existence die out.

Do they become like satanists and live a cult like existence where all normal people think they're weirdo's and every now and then they try a "Rosemary's Baby" type stunt?

Most dark friends are selfish and they join up because they want power, influence or to be on the winning side. For the last 3,000 years plus the Dark One could help them out even if he generally didn't. Now he can't touch the world or help his followers and they have no way of drilling another bore, not without Aol knowledge and the only ones who have that are LTT and Moggy and Moggy was an investment broker not a OP scientiest so she may not know how to do it any more that a modern day accountant could recreate a nuclear bomb if transported to the 17th century.

Bad people will still be bad people and they may even join up for mutual benefit but I can see the appeal of being a darkfriend dying out as it becomes clear that membership can get you killed if your found out but does not deliver any rewards.

padfoot89
01-25-2013, 07:20 AM
Rand's soul is the Dragon soul. This however does not always mean he is the Champion of Light per say.

The Dragon soul is a corrective mechanism used by the pattern when it is in serious jeopardy. The most powerful Ta'veren soul I assume.

Hawkwings soul cannot be the Dragon soul. But his soul could be spun out as a Champion of Light.

I think I've gotten all that correct... it's been a while since I've trawled through the database.

Wait, so what's the difference between the Dragon and Champion of Light ?

Davian93
01-25-2013, 07:22 AM
Wait, so what's the difference between the Dragon and Champion of Light ?

It has been suggested in interviews that if the Dragon were to die or be turned to the Shadow that another person would take up the mantle of Champion of the Light...

Dajoran
01-25-2013, 07:46 AM
A Champion of Light can be any soul, during whatever time they are needed they are working towards whatever goals the 'light' has. Go Light!

The Dragon soul can be the Champion of Light, but the Dragon soul is more than this in itself - it's the only soul that is ever weaved back into the pattern for a specific rebirth. It's the patterns full-on corrective mechanism.

In the example Davian gives, a Dragon can be turned to the Shadow, but in those instances a Champion of Light rises to take his place. As a Shadow Dragon does not cause a loss, but rather, a draw in the Light v Shadow fight, so someone has to facilitate this draw.

I can't recall the interview quotes about this, but I think I'm right... if a bit muddled in how I'm saying it :o

padfoot89
01-25-2013, 08:41 AM
So, to makes things clear - The Dragon soul is always the one that meets the DO in both ages (AoL and the third Age) unless he goes over to the Shadow in which case someone else steps in to take the place. The job is primarily intended for the Dragon to accomplish.

Did I get this right ?

Dajoran
01-25-2013, 08:55 AM
In my understanding, the job of facing the Dark One in a 'final' (as final as the wheel can give anyway) confrontation is down to the Dragon. That is, any attempt to repair a bore.

He is always used in the big showdowns as he is the biggest 'corrective mechanism' that the pattern has to offer. (IIRC The other Heroes of the Horn are also 'corrective mechanisms, though not to the degree of the Dragon?)

If he is turned to the Shadow, then someone else must do something to ensure the 'draw' clause that RJ spoke of, so this other person/people, would become the Champion(s) of Light.

Ishara
01-27-2013, 01:24 PM
He seemed, seemingly even his name, to have slipped completely from memory by the time of the AoL. Likely Elan Morin found some fragmentary, and very old poetry, maybe even a few broken lines of the Koran, that mentioned an ancient adversary, an ancient force of nihilism. Elan's curiosity was piqued, and he kept digging until he learned too much, and then he started hinting at where others should dig to find a new source of power...

To think, had someone just proscribed him prozac maybe the DO is never rediscovered back in AoL.
I'm curious Kimon, as to your source for this. We know that Beidomon and Lanfear conducted their experiment at the Sharom in search of a new source of Power. Are you suggesting that they did so at the suggestion of Elan?

Kimon
01-27-2013, 04:27 PM
I'm curious Kimon, as to your source for this. We know that Beidomon and Lanfear conducted their experiment at the Sharom in search of a new source of Power. Are you suggesting that they did so at the suggestion of Elan?

It's speculation, but seems a reasonable hypothesis considering that we know that Elan Morin had been a philosopher, had written extensively on esoteric nihilistic philosophy, had believed that the struggle between the Dragon and the DO had been ongoing since the dawn of time, and that he had been amongst the first, perhaps, literally the first agent of the shadow in the AoL. Would it not make sense that his first act, prior to revealing himself as a DF, would have been to set in motion Lanfear's experiment? Doesn't that make more sense than that her ill-begotten experiment was purely accidental?

Ishara
01-28-2013, 12:40 PM
It's certainly interesting...I'm not sure I've seen that posited before.

We know that Lanfear was power-hungry well before turning to the Dark Side (ha ha). She was conducting the experiment as a means to gain more power, unlimited (it seemed) power.

We also know that she didn't turn to the Shadow until after the experiment (although the timing hasn't ever been confirmed). I used to think that the event of making the Bore was what turned her (sort of like a 13x13 effect), but that was debunked by Maria in 2009 (I think) at JCon.

She's not stupid though. For her to be manipulated would be a feat in and of itself - although if anyone was to pull it off, I suppose it would be Ishamael...

GonzoTheGreat
01-28-2013, 12:57 PM
She's not stupid though. For her to be manipulated would be a feat in and of itself - although if anyone was to pull it off, I suppose it would be Ishamael...
Then again, she would have figured it out eventually, and then she would have killed him. The fact that that didn't happen suggests that this is not how it happened.

Davian93
01-28-2013, 01:00 PM
It's certainly interesting...I'm not sure I've seen that posited before.

We know that Lanfear was power-hungry well before turning to the Dark Side (ha ha). She was conducting the experiment as a means to gain more power, unlimited (it seemed) power.

We also know that she didn't turn to the Shadow until after the experiment (although the timing hasn't ever been confirmed). I used to think that the event of making the Bore was what turned her (sort of like a 13x13 effect), but that was debunked by Maria in 2009 (I think) at JCon.

She's not stupid though. For her to be manipulated would be a feat in and of itself - although if anyone was to pull it off, I suppose it would be Ishamael...


I think her making the Bore and then nearly immediately turning to the Shadow is what saved her...while her research partner likely died because he rejected the Shadow.

Basically, my theory goes that Lanfear was presented a choice of death or serve the Shadow and chose the latter....and thus survived the explosion that Rand witnesses on his trip through the glass columns.

frenchie
01-28-2013, 01:22 PM
Here is what RJ said about Beidomon:

Interview: Jul 19th, 2005
TOR Questions of the Week Part III (Verbatim)
week 12
Who was Beidomon, who helped Lanfear with the project that lead to the drilling of the Bore? Did he figure in the later events at the end of the Age of Legends?
Robert Jordan
Beidomon was a male Aes Sedai, and a research genius, who believed that they were onto something great. The drilling of the Bore itself caused great damage, and Beidomon, Lanfear and others involved were blamed for that. Once it became clear what had actually happened, the opprobrium increased, and Beidomon sought obscurity, finally committing suicide when he was unable to achieve it. Everyone knew his name, and what he had done. He had nowhere to hide.

As an aside, for those who think that Lanfear was in some way twisted against her will by being involved in drilling the Bore—I have heard the theory advanced—of all those involved in the project, she was the only major figure to go over to the Shadow. She was ripe for the Shadow's plucking long before the Bore was drilled.


And as for Lanfear turning to the Shadow immeidately, The BWB says she didn't swear to the Shadow immediately.

Davian93
01-28-2013, 01:35 PM
Here is what RJ said about Beidomon:

Interview: Jul 19th, 2005
TOR Questions of the Week Part III (Verbatim)
week 12
Who was Beidomon, who helped Lanfear with the project that lead to the drilling of the Bore? Did he figure in the later events at the end of the Age of Legends?
Robert Jordan
Beidomon was a male Aes Sedai, and a research genius, who believed that they were onto something great. The drilling of the Bore itself caused great damage, and Beidomon, Lanfear and others involved were blamed for that. Once it became clear what had actually happened, the opprobrium increased, and Beidomon sought obscurity, finally committing suicide when he was unable to achieve it. Everyone knew his name, and what he had done. He had nowhere to hide.

As an aside, for those who think that Lanfear was in some way twisted against her will by being involved in drilling the Bore—I have heard the theory advanced—of all those involved in the project, she was the only major figure to go over to the Shadow. She was ripe for the Shadow's plucking long before the Bore was drilled.


And as for Lanfear turning to the Shadow immeidately, The BWB says she didn't swear to the Shadow immediately.


Totally forgot all that...thanks.

Ishara
01-28-2013, 03:53 PM
Then again, she would have figured it out eventually, and then she would have killed him. The fact that that didn't happen suggests that this is not how it happened.
Agreed.
Here is what RJ said about Beidomon:

Interview: Jul 19th, 2005
TOR Questions of the Week Part III (Verbatim)
week 12
Who was Beidomon, who helped Lanfear with the project that lead to the drilling of the Bore? Did he figure in the later events at the end of the Age of Legends?
Robert Jordan
Beidomon was a male Aes Sedai, and a research genius, who believed that they were onto something great. The drilling of the Bore itself caused great damage, and Beidomon, Lanfear and others involved were blamed for that. Once it became clear what had actually happened, the opprobrium increased, and Beidomon sought obscurity, finally committing suicide when he was unable to achieve it. Everyone knew his name, and what he had done. He had nowhere to hide.

As an aside, for those who think that Lanfear was in some way twisted against her will by being involved in drilling the Bore—I have heard the theory advanced—of all those involved in the project, she was the only major figure to go over to the Shadow. She was ripe for the Shadow's plucking long before the Bore was drilled.


And as for Lanfear turning to the Shadow immeidately, The BWB says she didn't swear to the Shadow immediately.

All of those things. Thanks for posting that, Frenchie.

maacaroni
01-28-2013, 05:44 PM
Regarding shaitan (which autospell wanted to spell Shakira lol), that's what Muslims call Satan

TBF
01-28-2013, 06:32 PM
Regarding shaitan (which autospell wanted to spell Shakira lol), that's what Muslims call Satan

well it fits pretty much the pattern with asmodean, sammael, etc.

Ieyasu
01-28-2013, 10:34 PM
Isnt Shai'tan old-tongue for 'Shadow Lord' or something similiar? Marie has a old-tongue dictionary link if I am remembering correctly...

Zombie Sammael
01-29-2013, 12:36 AM
Isnt Shai'tan old-tongue for 'Shadow Lord' or something similiar? Marie has a old-tongue dictionary link if I am remembering correctly...

It might literally mean "Dark One". The "shai" part appears in "shaidar" which means "shadow" (as in "Shaidar Haran", hand of the dark), and appears elsewhere in the name "Shaisam", which we might be able to decode from the fact that "Sam", as in "Sammael" means killer or destroyer. Thus it can be reasoned that Shaisam means Shadow Killer, and "Shai'tan" means "Shadow One", or Dark One.