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BalefireX
01-26-2013, 11:33 AM
This is just some extra stuff to avoid spoilers in mouse-over. Please include some comments in the initial post of a thread to keep spoilers away from those who are still reading. Thanks. -- Marie
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I was really wondering what the aftermath of Tuon chatting with Artur Hawkwing would be. Let the Theory crafting begin.
I would prefer if Artur told her that keeping damane was wrong and that she should release all of them. That would be awesome, and it would significantly f*ck up the Raven Empire. Mat would approve, and he would help bring order once more, and then would be looked up to.

GonzoTheGreat
01-26-2013, 12:03 PM
Alternatively, he may have told her that she put too much trust in Aes Sedai.

Davian93
01-26-2013, 12:06 PM
Alternatively, he may have told her that she put too much trust in Aes Sedai.

That would definitely be funnier..."Fortuona, you must finish the task I failed and crush Tar Valon".

Lost One
01-27-2013, 06:36 PM
In his HotH persona, Hawking seems the Noble, confident, ruler/personality that is associated with.. Um.. Arthur. However, even though he was like by the commoners during his last Life, I thought he was pretty much a douche, because of his empire building as well as his hatred of Aes Sedai, though I do know that this was because of Ishmael's influence. His HotH persona dn his Flesh Persona clashed or so it seemed to me.

On a related note, it seems that the name a HotH's name is the one he used during the life in which he had distingished him/her self enought to be tied to the Horn. If this is true, and it seems that it is likely, as that is the name Birgitte goes by instead of Maerion or the name she had when she died in the Tower of Genghi. This means that AH was relative newcomer to the HotH. So why did he seem to be the leader? Also, will Noal be known as Noal or Jain?

Thoughts?

kivo
01-27-2013, 07:05 PM
I'd expect that with the Dragon's Peace firmly securing the Westlands borders, the Empress will appoint an appropriate overseer of the Westland holdings of the Empire. Someone high ranking in the Blood who also knows the politics of these lands well... Berelain is basically perfect for this task being a descendant of Hawkwing. The only argument against her is that she could be too strong a threat to Fortouna. Alternatively she could choose Beslan. Berelain with a support system of Galad and Beslan would be the strongest steward.

Then its off to Seanchan to reestablish order over the homeland. Knotai will lead the campaign with the Seanchan officer who reminded him of Talmanes serving as his... Talmanes over there.

Remaining questions would be: does the Doomseer go to the main Seanchan continent too? Or does she stay back and help Berelain? Or does she "vanish" and live happily ever after with The Wanderer.

Also, is Knotai still ta'veren? Perrin and Rand are not, but the Finns told him that he would be the center of it all... could that mean he is the only remaining ta'veren, with so much work to be done re-uniting Seanchan. It would also explain why the Outriggers would have centered around him.

Zombie Sammael
01-27-2013, 07:11 PM
I'd expect that with the Dragon's Peace firmly securing the Westlands borders, the Empress will appoint an appropriate overseer of the Westland holdings of the Empire. Someone high ranking in the Blood who also knows the politics of these lands well... Berelain is basically perfect for this task being a descendant of Hawkwing. The only argument against her is that she could be too strong a threat to Fortouna. Alternatively she could choose Beslan. Berelain with a support system of Galad and Beslan would be the strongest steward.

Then its off to Seanchan to reestablish order over the homeland. Knotai will lead the campaign with the Seanchan officer who reminded him of Talmanes serving as his... Talmanes over there.

Remaining questions would be: does the Doomseer go to the main Seanchan continent too? Or does she stay back and help Berelain? Or does she "vanish" and live happily ever after with The Wanderer.

Also, is Knotai still ta'veren? Perrin and Rand are not, but the Finns told him that he would be the center of it all... could that mean he is the only remaining ta'veren, with so much work to be done re-uniting Seanchan. It would also explain why the Outriggers would have centered around him.

Based on the idea that this story was once to be a sort of sequel to the main sequence, I'd suggest Min would at least appear to help with the Reconsolidation before disappearing to live happily ever after with Rand, as she's a popular and interesting character.

I reckon Mat is, in all likelihood, the last remaining ta'veren. The last book makes it clear there is still plenty to be resolved with the Seanchan, and Mat's placement amongst them seems to be designed for his ta'veren effect to make an impact. Also, his luck is a ta'veren effect, and a vital component both of his character and skill as a general. He's going to need that.

Res_Ipsa
01-27-2013, 07:29 PM
That would definitely be funnier..."Fortuona, you must finish the task I failed and crush Tar Valon".


Wasn't it Ishamael who poisoned Hawkwing's mind? And while I find the point humorous that he was like "schwack these idiots while they are weak," I think that he would not be inclined to do so (assuming he knows he was played for a fool).

Davian93
01-27-2013, 07:32 PM
Wasn't it Ishamael who poisoned Hawkwing's mind? And while I find the point humorous that he was like "schwack these idiots while they are weak," I think that he would not be inclined to do so (assuming he knows he was played for a fool).

Yes, it was Ishy...but it'd still be funny (given that Mat basically sent her to say the exact opposite).

Dom
01-27-2013, 07:53 PM
Mat's placement amongst them seems to be designed for his ta'veren effect to make an impact. Also, his luck is a ta'veren effect, and a vital component both of his character and skill as a general. He's going to need that.

Yet a good case could be made that RJ intended precisely the opposite: to show us a Mat now deprived of his ta'veren luck, involved in events where he could badly use it. After two years of moaning that he was ta'veren, now we'd have him moan that he's lost that, as if he's totally forgotten how much he used to hate being ta'veren.

Something.. completely new.

I don't know... it just doesn't seem to make much sense that RJ intended to pick up just where he left off, without putting in play big new twists to explore totally uncharted territory for the Mat-Tuon characters.

After Mat's role in TG, RJ would pretty much have exhausted the whole "Mr. Luck" thing, milk that for all it was worth. Much more interesting that now Tuon and the Seanchan expect this sort of things from their heroic Prince of the Ravens, but poor Mat no longer has his extraordinary ta'veren luck to meet those expectations, and now has to make do with his memories and experience alone..
Tuon and co. always believed the whole luck/ta'veren stuff to be pure superstition anyway, so Mat moaning "but honey, I'm no longer that guy, I've lost my luck!" would fall on deaf ears.

Another funny twists RJ might have considered if to have Mat stop being ta'veren after TG - something he'd reveal only as the outriggers opened, and the trilogy opens with Fortuona being spotted as having become ta'veren.

I get the feeling that there has to be some core idea, some spark like this idea that gave birth to the series. "How would a guy who used to be ta'veren and has created all sort of expectations cope when he's lost that but everyone now expects him to still deliver miracles" could be that "spark". With RJ at the helm, it could have been truly funny.

padfoot89
01-28-2013, 12:54 AM
Mat, without his luck, is hard to imagine. I guess it wouldn't make too much of a difference though.

His general skills didn't depend on it; he'll probably find the other battles he's involved in to be a lot easier to handle given that he's already fought the mother of all battles.

He doesn't need to win money anymore either. I think he'll adapt fairly quickly. He won't ever be in a situation where he has to solely rely on his luck like ToG.

Cortar
01-28-2013, 02:18 AM
On a related note, it seems that the name a HotH's name is the one he used during the life in which he had distingished him/her self enought to be tied to the Horn. If this is true, and it seems that it is likely, as that is the name Birgitte goes by instead of Maerion or the name she had when she died in the Tower of Genghi. This means that AH was relative newcomer to the HotH. So why did he seem to be the leader? Also, will Noal be known as Noal or Jain?

Thoughts?

Thats nothing to suggest that AH hadn't been called AH in very, very distant turnings of the wheel. Same goes for Noal. I would imagine Farstrider was already a Hero.


Mat, without his luck, is hard to imagine. I guess it wouldn't make too much of a difference though.

His general skills didn't depend on it; he'll probably find the other battles he's involved in to be a lot easier to handle given that he's already fought the mother of all battles.

He doesn't need to win money anymore either. I think he'll adapt fairly quickly. He won't ever be in a situation where he has to solely rely on his luck like ToG.

Go reread the beginning of the series.

Zombie Sammael
01-28-2013, 04:15 AM
Yet a good case could be made that RJ intended precisely the opposite: to show us a Mat now deprived of his ta'veren luck, involved in events where he could badly use it. After two years of moaning that he was ta'veren, now we'd have him moan that he's lost that, as if he's totally forgotten how much he used to hate being ta'veren.

Something.. completely new.

I don't know... it just doesn't seem to make much sense that RJ intended to pick up just where he left off, without putting in play big new twists to explore totally uncharted territory for the Mat-Tuon characters.

After Mat's role in TG, RJ would pretty much have exhausted the whole "Mr. Luck" thing, milk that for all it was worth. Much more interesting that now Tuon and the Seanchan expect this sort of things from their heroic Prince of the Ravens, but poor Mat no longer has his extraordinary ta'veren luck to meet those expectations, and now has to make do with his memories and experience alone..
Tuon and co. always believed the whole luck/ta'veren stuff to be pure superstition anyway, so Mat moaning "but honey, I'm no longer that guy, I've lost my luck!" would fall on deaf ears.

Another funny twists RJ might have considered if to have Mat stop being ta'veren after TG - something he'd reveal only as the outriggers opened, and the trilogy opens with Fortuona being spotted as having become ta'veren.

I get the feeling that there has to be some core idea, some spark like this idea that gave birth to the series. "How would a guy who used to be ta'veren and has created all sort of expectations cope when he's lost that but everyone now expects him to still deliver miracles" could be that "spark". With RJ at the helm, it could have been truly funny.

Of course, part of having "good luck" is just having the positive state of mind that comes from that; the sure and certain knowledge that all will be well. Mat could still work miracles just by making people think he's lucky. The man who beat Mat Cauthon at dice would be a legend in his own right, and if Mat's clever he could use that to his advantage.

Fortuona as ta'veren... doesn't strike me as quite right, in the same way that Egwene being ta'veren wouldn't have quite been right. These are characters whose power and respect is earned, not bestowed upon them, unlike Rand, Mat, and Perrin: "some are born to greatness, some earn it, and others have greatness thrust upon them". Tuon was born to greatness just as Egwene earned it; Mat for certain has greatness thrust upon him, and the same is roughly true of all three ta'veren (though Rand is also born to it and Perrin also earns it more thoroughly). To some extent, I think a ta'veren is a wild card, someone who no-one expects to achieve the things they do but who does it anyway. For Fortuona to acquire that would be just another advantage for an already powerful ruler, not a wild card sent to correct the course of the pattern. As interesting as your idea might be, to my mind having Mat stop being ta'veren while his work, moreso than Rand or Perrin, is still undone would be too harsh.

Dom
01-28-2013, 08:38 AM
Fortuona as ta'veren is interesting only because the Seanchan and her don't believe in this.

Mind you, another interesting twist would have been to make their adversary in Seanchan ta'veren. Jordan said this could happen, the Pattern needing to oppose two corrective mechanisms to bring the Pattern back on course.

Perhaps Jordan had in mind to have no one being ta'veren in the outriggers too.

We'll probably never know. Brandon implied he knows if the three main players are still ta'veren or not, but it's part of what RJ didn't want us to know.

Lost One
01-28-2013, 09:11 AM
[QUOTE=Cortar;211226]Thats nothing to suggest that AH hadn't been called AH in very, very distant turnings of the wheel. Same goes for Noal. I would imagine Farstrider was already a Hero. [QUOTE]

Noal was newly added as a HtoH. As we had seen the Heroes before, and more to the point, Rand and company had seen them before, his face if not his name would have been recognised. Or rather his face associated with more than one name. I am away on business so I do not have my library, but at Falme, it shows Rand knew and recognised all of them and that several names came to mind for each face "Michael instead of Mikal, Peter instead of Paedrig(?), Oscar instead of Otarin".

With each rebirth, names are changed. Some might be similar, while others might be different such as with Birgitte/Maerion/whoever she told Mat (I refuse to call him Knotai, at least when the woves give you a name, it is something pretty cool) about in TGS.

ShadowbaneX
01-28-2013, 09:22 AM
True, but when we last saw the Heroes a) Farstrider was already alive (and had been for a very long time and b) Jain wasn't anywhere near by to be recognized by the Heroes. Also c) if memory serves Rand never met Jain/Noal.

GonzoTheGreat
01-28-2013, 09:22 AM
Did anyone other than Rand recognise the Heros with multiple names, though?
Rand may very well have been helped there by an influx of LTT-memories, wheres all others had to depend on what they knew right then.

Dom
01-28-2013, 09:39 AM
[QUOTE=Cortar;211226]Thats nothing to suggest that AH hadn't been called AH in very, very distant turnings of the wheel. Same goes for Noal. I would imagine Farstrider was already a Hero. [QUOTE]

Noal was newly added as a HtoH. As we had seen the Heroes before, and more to the point, Rand and company had seen them before, his face if not his name would have been recognised.

Noal was incarnated when the Horn was sounded at Falme...

The Heroes have different physical bodies and names with each incarnation. Rand looks nothing like LTT. There's no reason whatsoever for Jain Farstrider while alive to have been recognized as HoH.

People in WOT don't waste much time playing "spot the rebirth", because they've not realized the archetypal nature of those rebirths. Stories of pre-Birgitte incarnations have been amalgamated by error to the stories of Birgitte, the Hero from Hawkwing's times, and several other stories have survived who are about one of Birgitte's incarnation but not associated to her.

Mat only recognized the Heroes from the stories he knows - to him Shivan and Callian were only Shivan and Callian and he remembered that the stories say Shivan the Hunter is born every Age, to herald the Time of Change before a new Age arrive. It's only Rand at Falme to whom their many names seeped through, and it was probably because he was a Hero of the Horn himself.

Ishara
01-28-2013, 11:51 AM
Briefly - you have to be DEAD to be called as a Hero. We'll never know for sure if Noal/ Jain was a Hero before.

ETA:

Also, there is no reason for the Pattern to require ta'verens anymore, so my bet is that Mat is no longer ta'veren either. The re-conquest of Seanchan is not enough of a reason, in my opinion, but I'm sure others disagree.

padfoot89
01-28-2013, 12:04 PM
Go reread the beginning of the series.

Are you referring to something in particular ? We don't get a Mat POV till TDR which is when his luck goes wild.

Lost One
01-29-2013, 12:35 PM
True, but when we last saw the Heroes a) Farstrider was already alive (and had been for a very long time and b) Jain wasn't anywhere near by to be recognized by the Heroes. Also c) if memory serves Rand never met Jain/Noal.

It was only after I had posted and was on my way to work that I realized that since Jain/Noal was alive at the time of Falme, that he could not respond to the Horn, just as Gaidal cannot respond as he is a wee lil baby right now. And due to his exploits as Jain which shows his adventurous/hero soul archtype, it is very possible he was a HotH. However, I was left with the distinct feeling that his place in the HotH was new and a reward for his sacrifice in this life. That however is just my opininion and take of the situation.

ShadowbaneX
01-29-2013, 12:52 PM
I don't think so. I think if he was newly bound, he wouldn't have been quite so blase about it.

TBF
01-29-2013, 01:06 PM
As the Seanchan Army now has Traveling available and the possibility to gain a very advanced weapon technology through the dragons and mat, i see the empress ending the civil war in seanchan rather fast. what remains unknown is, wether the shadow attacked seanchan, while the empress was fighting on the other side of the ocean. But i wouldn't see possible invaders hold out long there, without the forsaken and the Dark One. This points out, that the Seanchan Empire will be ready for war rather quick.
So what to make about the contract? To be honest, i found the concept of a community of inner security with feudal monarchs in it pretty naiv. As the Rulers have rather strong ties between them and even if not, still have a Code in their class, that will prevent them from bringing down a monarch and endangering themselves with this, they can still easily wage war againt each other, those who decide are not the same persons, who have to pay the price in the case the taken risk may swing back.
This is especially true for the Seanchan Empire out of several reason. The obvious is: It is the strongest Player and might even be able to challenge the whole rest of the alliance.
The next one is: The Empire has no strong cultural ties to the other nations and Tuon even said, that this peace will only be accepted and kept, while fighting the Dark One.
The last Point is,that the Aiel as a intervening force are enemies to the Seanchan Empire anyway. So Aviendas Vision might actually come true.
I see no reason, why the Seanchan Empire wouldn't break the contract. The Aiel as the Enforcers of the Contract will be a constant enemy to the seanchan. While the other Rulers might be able to bow down to the Empress, the Aiel, being only accepted as the Enforcers of the Dragons Peace and having no Territory to fall back besides Ruidean, cannot do that. So if the Seanchan would win the War, wich would be, seeing their grade organisation both military and in society, no suprise, the Aiel would be the main Losers and the Scapegoat to unify the new Kingdoms with the Seanchan.

Davian93
01-29-2013, 01:09 PM
I don't think so. I think if he was newly bound, he wouldn't have been quite so blase about it.

I agree. Just based on his life story and that reaction, I think he was always a Hero.

I wonder how much ribbing Rand will get from him for his "Hero" worship of Farstrider the next time they're both in TAR awaiting rebirth.

SauceyBlueConfetti
01-29-2013, 02:11 PM
I don't think so. I think if he was newly bound, he wouldn't have been quite so blase about it.

Disagree.

1. He dabbled on the Dark Side in this life as Jain. Which he still was JAIN. He didn't die and become Noal, he disappeared and took a new identity. His status as a HotH was likely hanging in the balance until his work with Mat tipped things.
2. I don't think he was a HotH in a previous incarnation, what evidence points to that?
3. Blase? He showed up and said, basically, I'm a-gunno-go-after-the-kid, and left. He was still in "I am figuring this all out" mode imho.

Davian93
01-29-2013, 02:21 PM
Jain Farstrider was the epitome of what you think of as a Hero...then Moridin got his hooks in him but its fairly evident that it wasn't of Farstrider's choosing to be messed with by the Shadow.

He was a famous traveler and writer ,etc etc. Kinda sounds like a Hero's life even before Ghenji.

Dom
01-29-2013, 02:43 PM
+1 for me for Jain was always a Hero.

The guy had HotH written all over him: going after the DF responsible for the fall of Malkier earned him great fame as a young man, even before he became the famous Jain Farstrider. He was the only living person in the series (aside from the proven Heroes like Birgitte) which truly incarnated the sort of fame you'd expect to stick to HoH. It's not only his books, the guy had Gleeman Tales sung about him ("How Susa Tamed Jain Farstrider" is one of those).


It wasn't even very subtle (and certainly not very surprising when it was revealed), it's been suggested many times on MBs JF was the current incarnation of a Hero of the Horn.

Ivhon
01-29-2013, 02:54 PM
I've always thought that people around here were to quick to want to add to the numbers of the HotH's. Just because AH said something nice and leaderlike to Hurin.

To me, the burden of proof should lie in demonstrating that a person is NEW to the horn, not that the person has always been bound. And the kind of thing done needs to be truly epic. Not just sacrificing yourself - that sort of thing happens all the time (sorry, Jesus). If all it took were selfless sacrifice there would be uncountable Heroes. Heroes are archetypal - the Traveler, the Herald, the King, the Savior, the Archer, the Swordsman (no, Lanbois, there is nothing to suggest that he will be ADDED to the number either - he's either a hero incarnated or not).


EDIT: To illustrate what I mean by how hard I think it is, all the countless innumerable turnings of the wheel and there are still only a small number of heroes. You don't get one every age. You sure don't get 5 or 6 at once. I MIGHT be comfortable with ONE person in all of WoT being added to the number simply because this particular turning of this particular 3rd/4th age is slightly special enough to warrant reading a whole bunch of books. Beyond that, no. No way. Not in the 4th age. Nor in the rest of the Turning. It just can't happen that often.

Sukoto
01-29-2013, 03:48 PM
In his HotH persona, Hawking seems the Noble, confident, ruler/personality that is associated with.. Um.. Arthur. However, even though he was like by the commoners during his last Life, I thought he was pretty much a douche, because of his empire building as well as his hatred of Aes Sedai, though I do know that this was because of Ishmael's influence. His HotH persona dn his Flesh Persona clashed or so it seemed to me.

On a related note, it seems that the name a HotH's name is the one he used during the life in which he had distingished him/her self enought to be tied to the Horn. If this is true, and it seems that it is likely, as that is the name Birgitte goes by instead of Maerion or the name she had when she died in the Tower of Genghi. This means that AH was relative newcomer to the HotH. So why did he seem to be the leader? Also, will Noal be known as Noal or Jain?

Thoughts?
Hawkwing was the leader of the heroes only because Rand was alive. Otherwise, the Dragon would most likely be the leader. Also, I believe the name used for heroes is probably just the one that is most convenient. Hawkwing called Rand by the name of Lews Therin in tGH, even though the Dragon would have been known by many names over the ages. None of the particular iterations of the Dragon would have been more important or more distinguished than another. Lews Therin was just the most recent. However, as we see with Birgitte, it isn't always the most recent name that sticks. RJ doesn't seem to have created any sophisticated rules governing Hero names.

Dom
01-29-2013, 04:14 PM
I've always thought that people around here were to quick to want to add to the numbers of the HotH's. Just because AH said something nice and leaderlike to Hurin.

To me, the burden of proof should lie in demonstrating that a person is NEW to the horn, not that the person has always been bound. And the kind of thing done needs to be truly epic. Not just sacrificing yourself - that sort of thing happens all the time (sorry, Jesus). If all it took were selfless sacrifice there would be uncountable Heroes. Heroes are archetypal - the Traveler, the Herald, the King, the Savior, the Archer, the Swordsman (no, Lanbois, there is nothing to suggest that he will be ADDED to the number either - he's either a hero incarnated or not).


EDIT: To illustrate what I mean by how hard I think it is, all the countless innumerable turnings of the wheel and there are still only a small number of heroes. You don't get one every age. You sure don't get 5 or 6 at once. I MIGHT be comfortable with ONE person in all of WoT being added to the number simply because this particular turning of this particular 3rd/4th age is slightly special enough to warrant reading a whole bunch of books. Beyond that, no. No way. Not in the 4th age. Nor in the rest of the Turning. It just can't happen that often.

I agree with most of that. Rj said you can't be unbound, and there are approx a 100 souls, so adding new Heroes must be very, very rare.

I'm not sure about "truly epic", since RJ also pointed out there's more for those Hero Souls to do than always be epic warriors.

I think it's other qualities the Wheel is looking for, and it's not sentient (more like a giant computer capable of analyzing everything) and that probably should give us a clue. I think archetypal qualities/behaviors and patterns is what the Wheel is spotting through the Ages, and it fairly rarely adds a new Hero. It's looking for souls that more or less react in predictable ways in each incarnation and tend to reproduce patterns. It's looking for corrective mechanisms, so predictability to the point you could call them archetypes would be important.

It's got more than "epic" warriors... there's a Hunter and a Chooser, a Healer, an inspirational Discoverer/Great Traveler, a Peacemaker, probably a few "great rulers"/cultural giant à la Hawkwing (perhaps Amaresu is a female version?), a pair of Lovers who always act in tandem and that the Wheel can guide back pulling one one way knowing the other will come to the rescue etc.

Other qualities they consistently display through incarnations must have counted for a lot too... resistance to the lures of the Shadow, self-sacrifice, etc.

ShadowbaneX
01-30-2013, 07:54 AM
Semi-related

WinespringBrother 02-20-2009, 08:46 AMI think it is interesting that Hawkwing didn't include Mat and Perrin in his "adding to the Heroes" group, implying that they have already been added. Also, the fact that Birgitte helped Perrin, Elayne and Nynaeve while in tel'aran'rhiod could indicate their inclusion in that group.

If anyone that is alive is a Hero (not mentioned already), it would be Noal "Jain" Charin. Though if we start adding everyone who had a long list of brave deeds in the present time, the Heroes will need to rent more office space.

Moghedien seems to possess significant knowledge about the Heroes, I wonder if she can recognize them on sight. Perhaps Birgitte can also, considering her unusual birth.

As a side note, does anyone think that Hopper could be reborn in the same way that Birgitte was?

Emphasis mine, the sixth post in this archived thread (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-1359.html).

Congrats on predicting this one WSB.

Lost One
01-30-2013, 01:28 PM
I've always thought that people around here were to quick to want to add to the numbers of the HotH's. Just because AH said something nice and leaderlike to Hurin.

To me, the burden of proof should lie in demonstrating that a person is NEW to the horn, not that the person has always been bound. And the kind of thing done needs to be truly epic. Not just sacrificing yourself - that sort of thing happens all the time (sorry, Jesus). If all it took were selfless sacrifice there would be uncountable Heroes. Heroes are archetypal - the Traveler, the Herald, the King, the Savior, the Archer, the Swordsman (no, Lanbois, there is nothing to suggest that he will be ADDED to the number either - he's either a hero incarnated or not).


EDIT: To illustrate what I mean by how hard I think it is, all the countless innumerable turnings of the wheel and there are still only a small number of heroes. You don't get one every age. You sure don't get 5 or 6 at once. I MIGHT be comfortable with ONE person in all of WoT being added to the number simply because this particular turning of this particular 3rd/4th age is slightly special enough to warrant reading a whole bunch of books. Beyond that, no. No way. Not in the 4th age. Nor in the rest of the Turning. It just can't happen that often.

Otherwise, Ingtar might have been added. He was brave, reasonably/regionally famous and had done heroic acts... aside from turning to the shadow. But again this was even in an attempt to, at least in his mind, secure a truce for the people and land he loved, rather than see them swept away while receiving no support from southerners. His FotD tasks were small and not too pronounced in and of themselves, they just led to something bigger. Also he, unlike others (Sheriam, Carridan, Weirimon) his choice was not for selfish reasons. He was still fighting for his land, and had just lost hope. Verin, while serving undercover, was a darker and more dangerous FotD, than Ingtar. Once he had been shown the path back and willing made the decision to sacrifice himself so that Rand and Co. could get away, he was not added. .. Pity, I always liked him and it would and awesome note on will and redemption.

Weiramon
01-30-2013, 03:03 PM
Burn my soul, of course there are more Heroes. A Hero of the Charge. All the gleeman spin tales of the brigade of Light, and the shocking defeat of the strong-armed General by a prostrate cow.

That such a Hero was not called when the Horn sounded is greatly suggestive.

MPry
02-01-2013, 10:44 AM
Just re-read his saving Olver last night.

Both times I read the part where he said to Olver (about being dead ) something close to "it appears the Pattern was not through with me" i took it as a clear indication that he was a new HoTH.

Dom
02-01-2013, 11:07 AM
:cool:Just re-read his saving Olver last night.

Both times I read the part where he said to Olver (about being dead ) something close to "it appears the Pattern was not through with me" i took it as a clear indication that he was a new HoTH.

It's not clear at all, it just one possible interpretation. It's an obvious jest a Hero returned to life with his last appearance and talking to a friend from his last life could make. Jain has all the memories of his life, and to him he would have just re-learned he's a HoH.

The book has nothing conclusive. Only Brandon or TJ could settle this, if they're so inclined, because in the book they left it completely open.

The earlier books showed a character whose life was legendary and who had "HoH reborn" written all over him.

Notice RJ even really introduced him (in contemporary story time) captured by Graendal near Almoth Plain, and there were clues in the late series that he remembered seing the Seanchan, and this can only be on Toman's Head (he mentions seing Seanchan soldiers he's seen their like before... can't remember where: Graendal has messed with his memories)... as if even currently incarnated he somehow anticipated the upcoming call of the Horn at Falme.

We might get the final word in the Encyclopedia, if Harriet's old implication it won't be like the BWB and will include information from RJ's notes the WOT world don't know turns out to actually be her final plan for it. We might also get entries for the known Heroes that make it quite clear Farstrider had previous incarnations.

Hashibon
02-02-2013, 11:19 PM
It still bugs me that Moghedien was captured by that suldam. Wasn't there a pact between Rand and Fortuona that channelers cannot be taken outside Seanchan territory?

Dom
02-02-2013, 11:31 PM
It still bugs me that Moghedien was captured by that suldam. Wasn't there a pact between Rand and Fortuona that channelers cannot be taken outside Seanchan territory?

The sul'dam who did it tought Moghedien was clearly up to no good. She sort of assumed Moghedien was not a friend but a foe, thus not covered by the treaty. And she Traveled right away with her to Ebou Dar. I wouldn't expect any Seanchan will nitpick much.

Anyway... the possessions of a new damane are destroyed, so there's a good chance that Moghedien's mindtrap won't survive long, and neither will she.

GonzoTheGreat
02-03-2013, 04:54 AM
It still bugs me that Moghedien was captured by that suldam. Wasn't there a pact between Rand and Fortuona that channelers cannot be taken outside Seanchan territory?
Not between Rand and Fortuona, I think. Egwene and Fortuona did make such a pact, but that was about channelers on the side of the Light only. Or rather, it made an explicit exception for the Sharans, and (I think) an implicit exception for Dreadlords and such.

The problem for the sul'dam is that they did not have actual proof that Moghedien fell into such an "unprotected" category.
The problem for Moghedien is that she does not actually fit the category that Egwene was trying to protect, so even if the whole truth comes out, that probably won't help her anyway.

Thus, the possibilities in decreasing likelihood seem to be:
1. The mindtrap is destroyed, and Moghedien becomes some kind of automaton. Maybe under control of the one that breaks the trap, maybe not, depending on how that works precisely.
2. The mindtrap isn't destroyed, and Moghedien ends up as a damane. Maybe she escapes eventually, more likely not.
3. The mindtrap isn't destroyed, and Moghedien ends up as a damane. Min then recognises her as "the spy" and an investigation follows.
4. The mindtrap isn't destroyed, and Moghedien is temporarily a damane. Then she manages to raise a bureaucratic objection about her capture, and:
4a. Mat calls Nynaeve to help resolve this international incident. Hilarity ensues. Moghedien doesn't appreciate the joke.
4b. Moghedien is released.

Frankly, I think that 4b is by far the least likely.

Edited to add:
I think that in both cases 3 and 4 the sul'dam who caught her would be in for some serious eye lowering.

ShadowbaneX
02-03-2013, 08:46 AM
I'm pretty sure no formal/binding agreement was reached between the Eggy & Tuon. They talked about it, but no documents were signed, no hands were shaken, there wasn't even a verbal agreement. They talked about it, but no one said "ok, yeah, let's do it."

GonzoTheGreat
02-03-2013, 09:21 AM
Mat taverned it. :p

SauceyBlueConfetti
02-03-2013, 10:02 AM
I'm pretty sure no formal/binding agreement was reached between the Eggy & Tuon. They talked about it, but no documents were signed, no hands were shaken, there wasn't even a verbal agreement. They talked about it, but no one said "ok, yeah, let's do it."

Disagree. The sul'dam that captured Mogs knew of and referenced the parameters of the agreement. Fortuona had in fact made an agreement and came to the Last Battle in aid. The word had been spread to the sul'dam

ShadowbaneX
02-03-2013, 10:48 AM
I'll have to reread it, but it seemed to me that no, it didn't. The agreement the sul'dam was thinking of was the one between Tuon and Rand. The agreement between Eggy & Tuon was that if any woman wanted to be collared she could go to Ebou Dar and be collared. Conversely, if any damane wanted to be freed she could ask it and it would be allowed. Additionally, there was something about Tuon trying on the a'dam and I think it's about that point that Mat stepped in, literally.

GonzoTheGreat
02-03-2013, 10:56 AM
The agreement between Rand and Fortuona on this:
You may keep the damane you already have, but you shall not take any from among my allies while we fight the Last Battle. Taking any afterward who are not in your own land will be seen as breaking the treaty and attacking the other nations.
The LB was over by the time Moghedien was taken. Thus, if one uses the deal with Rand, the "not in your own land" clause would apply.
Only if we assume that the deal with Egwene supersedes the one with Rand is there any possible justification at all.

Dom
02-03-2013, 02:21 PM
The agreement between Rand and Fortuona on this:

The LB was over by the time Moghedien was taken. Thus, if one uses the deal with Rand, the "not in your own land" clause would apply.
Only if we assume that the deal with Egwene supersedes the one with Rand is there any possible justification at all.

I'm not sure why it'd matter though.

It just showed a sul'dam who interpreted the directives as an AS treats the Three Oaths. "You look like you're up to something and aren't one of them, I'm taking you to Ebou Dar. Now. Before anyone else come.".

Aside from making the capture of Moghedien possible, it just suggests that some sul'dam are really not happy (of course, they have a bad sul'dam to damane ratio and a few weeks ago had big hopes to make large scale captures soon) and Melitene might have to keep a close eye on her sul'dam if Fortuona really intends to abide by the spirit and letter of the treaty.

The way she Traveled immediately, that sul'dam isn't about to tell the truth of the capture, if asked.

Those aspects of the treaty will be a bitch to enforce.

Lost One
02-04-2013, 01:15 AM
Disagree.

1. He dabbled on the Dark Side in this life as Jain. Which he still was JAIN. He didn't die and become Noal, he disappeared and took a new identity. His status as a HotH was likely hanging in the balance until his work with Mat tipped things.
2. I don't think he was a HotH in a previous incarnation, what evidence points to that?
3. Blase? He showed up and said, basically, I'm a-gunno-go-after-the-kid, and left. He was still in "I am figuring this all out" mode imho.

I had just re-read the saving Olver Scene. Paraphrased..

Olver says, "I was told that you died".

Noal replies, "I did. I guess the pattern was not finished with me".

Not "I did, so I was free to come to the Horn's call", or "Noal died, I'm Jain again and still tied to the horn".

I do not want to say Noal seemed surprised by it, but it did have sense of newness to it. And last but not least, why add about a person may be added to the HotHs if NO ONE is going to be added. It goes back to Checkov's gun.

fionwe1987
02-04-2013, 09:33 AM
I'll have to reread it, but it seemed to me that no, it didn't. The agreement the sul'dam was thinking of was the one between Tuon and Rand. The agreement between Eggy & Tuon was that if any woman wanted to be collared she could go to Ebou Dar and be collared. Conversely, if any damane wanted to be freed she could ask it and it would be allowed. Additionally, there was something about Tuon trying on the a'dam and I think it's about that point that Mat stepped in, literally.
Tuon and Egwene both agree that the Seanchan coming to the Tower's aid would be conditional on this treaty. Then the situation begins to go out of hand, but Mat steps in. The end result is still the Seanchan coming to help the Tower, which I took to mean both sides accepted the deal, which was as follows:

1) Damane can demand freedom, and will be sent to the White Tower if they do.

2) Tuon can send emissaries to any city, preaching the virtues of being Damane. Any woman who choses to can become a damane. Egwene will ensure that these preachers are given room and board.

3) Tremlaking is freed, as are all other Sea Folk islands.

They did leave the issue of evil channelers unresolved, so I suppose Moghedien can be explained away that way. And its not like Moghedien can simply demand freedom. The Tower would know, and she'd be immediately captured and stilled, birched, and set to wiping floors, if Cadsuane is in a good mood. IF she's not, she'll be stilled, birched, and executed.

Davian93
02-04-2013, 10:02 AM
I had just re-read the saving Olver Scene. Paraphrased..

Olver says, "I was told that you died".

Noal replies, "I did. I guess the pattern was not finished with me".

Not "I did, so I was free to come to the Horn's call", or "Noal died, I'm Jain again and still tied to the horn".

I do not want to say Noal seemed surprised by it, but it did have sense of newness to it. And last but not least, why add about a person may be added to the HotHs if NO ONE is going to be added. It goes back to Checkov's gun.

Of course, it could also very easily mean that he was surprised the Horn was blown for him to be spun out as that hadn't happened since before the Age of Legends (as he was living when it occurred at Falme).

Its an event that happens less than every Age apparently. He's also explaining it to a child so you have to take that into account.

ShadowbaneX
02-04-2013, 04:04 PM
It's that whole part with Egwene mentioning that she was taken as a damane and then suggesting that sul'dam can channel, and that Tuon herself can channel. It's at that point that Mat stepped in. There was no real agreement there, not even really verbal. There's a "if you do this, I'll do that" but none of them actually agreed to do that. There was an offer on the table, but then they both walked away, and no one signed it.

fionwe1987
02-04-2013, 04:31 PM
It's that whole part with Egwene mentioning that she was taken as a damane and then suggesting that sul'dam can channel, and that Tuon herself can channel. It's at that point that Mat stepped in. There was no real agreement there, not even really verbal. There's a "if you do this, I'll do that" but none of them actually agreed to do that. There was an offer on the table, but then they both walked away, and no one signed it.
This is how they leave off:

“You don’t seem the type to release anything, once you have your hands on it,” Egwene said. “Matrim does not interest me at the moment; your
army does. Will you fight, or won’t you?”
“I will fight,” Fortuona said. “But my army is not subject to you...

Before, Tuon says that her army joining the fight is subject to conditions. Egwene then adds her own conditions. Then Tuon adds another conditions. Then things begin to go south. Then Mat steps in. Then Tuon agrees to fight.

While we don't see an explicit signing of the agreement, the sequence of events makes it clear enough it was accepted.

GonzoTheGreat
02-04-2013, 04:50 PM
While we don't see an explicit signing of the agreement, the sequence of events makes it clear enough it was accepted.
That, combined with the fact that the sul'dam obviously have some "don't collar our allies" order.

ShadowbaneX
02-04-2013, 05:08 PM
I'll have to take another look to see what the whole point of it is. As far as I'm concerned the entire thing isn't an agreement. Additionally, I can see Cadsuane laughing in Tuon's Emissaries' faces if they showed up and tried to invoke the agreement.

Dom
02-04-2013, 07:40 PM
I'll have to take another look to see what the whole point of it is. As far as I'm concerned the entire thing isn't an agreement. Additionally, I can see Cadsuane laughing in Tuon's Emissaries' faces if they showed up and tried to invoke the agreement.

Indeed. And behind the scenes she would have sent the whole Grey Ajah to convince every ruler to refuse entrance on their territory to those "preachers".

It was a good "oh yeah, I don't fear you or your prejudices, bring it on sister" moment for Egwene, but it was also perhaps her worst political decision in the series. It should have been made very clear somehow that she agreed to anything to have Tuon fight, but worded it all to be able to wriggle out of it post TG.

The Hall would have wanted her head for this otherwise. The WT had fought a hard battle against people's growing anti-AS prejudices for most of the New Era, and had largely lost the battle in the South. The WC were calming down at last, and the WT would now open its arms to far more vicious and dangerous "preachers" telling everyone AS were out of control, that women who channeled were as bad as men who channeled and for their own good they should come to be leashed in Seanchan territory.

Egwene was about right that few channelers would fall for that, but it wasn't about channelers, it would have done massive damage in the population. All the Cenn Buie and Coplins/Congars would have drank it all up like sweet milk.

Meanwhile, Egwene knew all too well damane were so brainswashed it would be one in thousands who accepted to be freed.

It was all the more unwise that soon the world wouldn't have "Darkfriends" to worry about, and it let Tuon make the channelers the next big scarecrows.

Egwene would have soon found Elayne Trakand in her way about this. How could Elayne possibly allow those preachers to speak openly in Andor. It's much worse than the WC campaign against Morgase's rule. She was AS and Queen, it amounted to allowing sedition in plain sight.

The way it's written, it wasn't clear though if it was meant to show Egwene was too personally involved given her traumatism in Seanchan hands to be the right person to make those decisions and she let the Empress get the better of her without seeing the real implications, or if she told her what she had to to get her to fight but always meant to back off on this post TG somehow (but there's the first Oath, she couldn't lie...) or if Brandon thought somehow these were acceptable compromises for the WT (like he had them let go over the Amyrlin's traditional perception as ruler above the rulers, giving most of their political role to the Aiel instead, without even a solid grumble...).

Another way this would have harmed the WT was that as the Seanchan worldview spread in the population, rulers and nobles ran a big chance of becoming more reluctant than before to be seen aligned with the WT, especially since with the PotD, the political power of TV is greatly undermined and to maintain and increase their influence the WT would soon have to offer services and make themselves far more valuable they are perceived now. If the Seanchan prejudices took root, and in the southern nations it would have been easy, rulers would be tempted to make laws outlawing AS in their lands. The PotD also don't forbid nations from joining willingly and peacefully the Seanchan Empire. The Empress would leave the borders in place, and beside allegiance to the Throne and Seanchan laws, the provinces are still sovereign realms.

fionwe1987
02-04-2013, 08:07 PM
It should be noted the entire Hall was with Egwene when she made the deal. And she had complete authority to deal with rulers anyway. And not one of them raised a sound about the deal. All this could be Brandon doing things wrong, but I don't think so.

I think what Egwene is basically thinking is that this allows her to free Wise Ones, Sea Folk and Aes Sedai at very low cost. In one go, she frees captive damane from the Westlands, the possible Alivia's of the Seanchan contingent, and she also gets dibs on new channelers from the Seanchan held lands if they're not completely insane and want to be collared.

In exchange, she has to let Tuon's emissaries spread anti-AS propaganda. But nothing at all stops her from spreading her own propaganda, and even better, giving living proof to the people that the Seanchan are a bunch of moronic liars.

I think RJ's idea here was to resolve the issue in a way that seemed believable. He didn't want the Seanchan to have an about face in a moment. That would have been ridiculously unbelievable. Egwene and Rand happily accepting hundred's of women collared also made no sense. How to deal with it, then?

Getting Tuon to agree that she gets to keep collaring women if she can sell her idea that collaring is necessary is an excellent way to achieve this. On the one hand, this can lead to a quick release of prisoners. On the other, it also puts immense pressure on the Aes Sedai to improve themselves and quickly prove themselves as valuable and trusted members of society. Egwene already set this in motion by crafting a deal whereby Accepted will be exposed to Windfinders and Wise Ones. That already helps by showing future AS the way to behave with society.

The next step would be this deal. Its classic Egwene. Its getting what you want on two fronts by appearing to lose a lot. This puts pressure on the Hall and the current AS to change. Brandon never did give us the payoff of Egwene's conversation with Nynaeve after Nynaeve's test. I think that point of that was to drive home to Egwene again how Aes Sedai have made a muck of their role. He briefly returned to it with Egwene linking with Nynaeve in the first chapter to Heal commoners. Then he left it by the wayside.

It would seem to me that throwing in a line where Egwene sees the advantages of having Seanchan preachers would do the trick. On the one hand, she can openly claim the Aes Sedai let even their sworn enemies preach against them. On the other, it would have let her set reforms in motion to ensure the Aes Sedai start serving people more quickly, yet another thing RJ would have wanted to achieve, but would not want to happen spontaneously.

And post-TG, Cadsuane has very little to worry about. Thousands of common soldiers are alive because Aes Sedai Healed them. Aes Sedai were with the Dragon at Shayol Ghul itself. Aes Sedai fought and died to protect him. Aes Sedai rescued thousands of Kandori. Aes Sedai fought to the death at Merrilor and their leader died to save the Pattern, after killing one of the Foresaken...

Add in the Wise Ones who will help hold the Peace, and the Windfinders who will be regulating the Weather, and the Queen of Andor who lead the Last Battle and is mother to the Dragon's children, and can make wondrous ter'angreal that help everyone, and I can't help but see that Egwene's gleeful acceptance of Tuon's plan makes complete sense. Can you imagine the Seanchan preachers getting anything but scorn from the people of the rest of Randland?

And soon the Aes Sedai will be coming to town, looking for your sisters and daughters to be made Aes Sedai too. The numbers for the White Tower are soon going to exceed anything Tar Valon can hold or need. And if every village has a few Aes Sedai from there, the whole "mysterious manipulators" image gets washed away.

"Aes Sedai are evil? My friend's sister is an Aes Sedai. She's perfectly nice, too. What do you mean, evil?"

The Tower will have enough PR capital to counter whatever Fortuona can throw at them.

GonzoTheGreat
02-05-2013, 03:35 AM
The Hall would have wanted her head for this otherwise. The WT had fought a hard battle against people's growing anti-AS prejudices for most of the New Era, and had largely lost the battle in the South. The WC were calming down at last, and the WT would now open its arms to far more vicious and dangerous "preachers" telling everyone AS were out of control, that women who channeled were as bad as men who channeled and for their own good they should come to be leashed in Seanchan territory.
Let me see:

On the one hand, there's Seanchan preachers telling everyone how unleashed channelers are a danger, how having them forced to act as the enforcers of the nobility is far better.

On the other hand, we have the AS (who played a heroic and public role in the LB) pointing out that those claims are nonsense, and we have the BT under Logain (who gains his fame and glory while being hugely popular) who very publicly argue with the WT about everything else agree with that WT viewpoint. We have the public and free Healing centers, which would be closed down if the Seanchan got their way. We have the cheap Traveling provided by the Kin, which would be shut down if the Seanchan had their way. We have whatever other services the BT manages to cook up in rivalry to the WT, which would also be shut down if the Seanchan were successful. And, last but definitely not least: the ones who would actually have to be convinced of the appropriateness of the Seanchan are not the ordinary people but the channelers themselves, who have the choice between being free and a part of all the previously outlined services, or being slaves.

Why would the Hall assume that they would be less convincing than a bunch of foreign idiots?

fionwe1987
02-05-2013, 09:23 AM
Let me see:
Why would the Hall assume that they would be less convincing than a bunch of foreign idiots?
We have got to stop agreeing like this! :D

GonzoTheGreat
02-05-2013, 10:12 AM
We have got to stop agreeing like this! :D
That's simple: be wrong, and you have lots of different ways of disagreeing with me. It is only when you want to be right that you're limited to accepting my view on things.

Dom
02-05-2013, 10:47 PM
Let me see:

On the one hand, there's Seanchan preachers telling everyone how unleashed channelers are a danger, how having them forced to act as the enforcers of the nobility is far better.

On the other hand, we have the AS (who played a heroic and public role in the LB) pointing out that those claims are nonsense, and we have the BT under Logain (who gains his fame and glory while being hugely popular) who very publicly argue with the WT about everything else agree with that WT viewpoint. We have the public and free Healing centers, which would be closed down if the Seanchan got their way. We have the cheap Traveling provided by the Kin, which would be shut down if the Seanchan had their way. We have whatever other services the BT manages to cook up in rivalry to the WT, which would also be shut down if the Seanchan were successful. And, last but definitely not least: the ones who would actually have to be convinced of the appropriateness of the Seanchan are not the ordinary people but the channelers themselves, who have the choice between being free and a part of all the previously outlined services, or being slaves.

Why would the Hall assume that they would be less convincing than a bunch of foreign idiots?

Based on the poor success of the WT had preserving its influence and prestige in the last 1000 years and the general indifference and apathy toward the captured channelers through the South - and in comparison to the massive success of Imperial propaganda (we haven't seen many Seanchan who reject the beliefs about channelers) I wouldn't take too much for granted the WT would be for sure the winner in a propaganda war vs. the Seanchan.

Sure the AS right now have big PR assets to turn the tide (which they didn't have by the time of that scene, though) and so do the Seanchan whose general defeated the Shadow at Merrilor after all - but they also have an history of turning to their own affairs and failing to capitalize on such opportunities, eg: they big failure a creating a permanent covenant of nations post Aiel War. The Grays tried, it petered out.

Right now they're down to 200 full sisters or so, with 1000 novices to train, and an Amyrlin who believes training standards must be seriously raised. Cadsuane won't fast track anyone. You can forget about a large scale PR campaign, hospitals etc. in the first decade post TG at the very least. The Asha'man will be busy building themselves a real organization, and the AS have 10 women for each AS to train, and to expand their recruting efforts widely, which will monopolize sisters.

Meanwhile Fortuona has the numbers andan Imperial propaganda machine which, seeing how all the Seanchan we've seen genuinely believe in this worldview, is damned well oiled and effective. It's not like the Seanchan haven't spread their worldview to new provinces before.

From the King's attitude in AMOL, Murandy is the nation which could very well align itself with the Seanchan.

The WT/WO/Winfinders/BT together could and likely would win the PR fight in the long run, but it has better and more important things to do than waste time and energy to counter the efforts of Seanchan "preachers" it lets in, when it could capitalize on the prestige and gratitude TG brought them precisely to nick that in the bud and get most of the nations to refuse entry in their lands to the Seanchan propaganda machine of hatred and prejudice - and between the success of the WC in the new era and awareness of the strength of Seanchan propaganda, they just should.

In the end, why would it be wise to waste energy and human resources on them if it can be avoided?

fionwe1987
02-05-2013, 11:16 PM
In the end, why would it be wise to waste energy and human resources on them if it can be avoided?
Freedom for a few hundred women, including Wise Ones, Windfinders and Tower Initiates? The chance to deny Fortuona new damane and maybe Sul'dam from the lands she controls? These are not small things.

GonzoTheGreat
02-06-2013, 03:58 AM
In the end, why would it be wise to waste energy and human resources on them if it can be avoided?
Because, if they do refuse those propagandists entry, then that will free up the Seanchan from upholding their side of the bargain too. Which may mean that there will be Seanchan "recruiting parties" scooping up marath'damane in the non-Seanchan lands, and no damane will ever be released.

Countering that would take far more effort still than merely countering the words of the Seanchan. Especially when Thom helps by composing a bunch of songs praising the bravery and selflessness of AS and Asha'man.

Davian93
02-06-2013, 06:58 AM
Right now they're down to 200 full sisters or so, with 1000 novices to train

I thought the Rebel AS had close to 3000 novices just by themselves...

GonzoTheGreat
02-06-2013, 07:14 AM
I thought the Rebel AS had close to 3000 novices just by themselves...
Quite believable that you thought so, but that doesn't make it correct. :p

One of the only oddities about the village—if one ignored the fact that there were tents instead of rooms and wooden walkways instead of tiled hallways—was the number of novices. There were hundreds and hundreds. In fact, the number had to be over a thousand now, many more than the Tower had held in recent memory. Once the Aes Sedai were reunited, novices' quarters that hadn't been used in decades would have to be reopened. They might even need the second kitchen.
There might be as many as two thousand, though probably not, but nowhere near three thousand.

fionwe1987
02-06-2013, 07:22 AM
There might be as many as two thousand, though probably not, but nowhere near three thousand.
True. But its going to take a few weeks of recruiting in other countries to take the numbers far higher. The bulk of those 1000 novices are from Northern Altara alone. And if they truly mine the Two Rivers, and remove the age limit, there should be a few hundred there.

GonzoTheGreat
02-06-2013, 07:37 AM
True. But its going to take a few weeks of recruiting in other countries to take the numbers far higher. The bulk of those 1000 novices are from Northern Altara alone. And if they truly mine the Two Rivers, and remove the age limit, there should be a few hundred there.
Of course, it's possible that all of those would prefer to become damane.

fionwe1987
02-06-2013, 07:39 AM
Of course, it's possible that all of those would prefer to become damane.
Very true. Silver necklace>gold ring, after all. Really, the Aes Sedai need an upgrade in the jewelry department.

SauceyBlueConfetti
02-06-2013, 09:34 AM
Right now they're down to 200 full sisters or so, with 1000 novices to train, and an Amyrlin who believes training standards must be seriously raised.

The numbers cannot really be pinned down from what I have seen...where did you get the 200 count? This figure is during the split, the Rebel Camp doesn't even account for any of the totals:

TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: PROLOGUE - There were only two hundred or so sisters in the Tower at the moment, a number the White Tower could swallow and seem vacant, and with everyone keeping to themselves, the common areas should have been empty.

And don't forget the Kin are at the very least TWICE as numerous as the current sisters, the Windfinders are not accounted for in channeling numbers, nor are the Aiel.

Dom
02-06-2013, 01:24 PM
Because, if they do refuse those propagandists entry, then that will free up the Seanchan from upholding their side of the bargain too. Which may mean that there will be Seanchan "recruiting parties" scooping up marath'damane in the non-Seanchan lands, and no damane will ever be released.

The Peace of the Dragon forbids that.

Few damane will ever want to be released.

They might save some Aes Sedai this way, assuming Fortuona doesn't manage to dither and delay long enough that most will have been broken. She's certainly counting on that.

It's probably too late for most Kinswomen/wilders captured.

The Shaido WO will probably won't have broken. However, they're criminals who kidnapped and enslaved people, tortured them, mistreated them and treated them like animals, often turned blind eyes to rape, sent away children and elderly to fare on their own and shattering families. The Aiel so offended about their capture don't know the full picture or how far the Shaido really have abandonned and betrayed ji'e'toh under the leadership and at the instigation of these very women. Knowledge of this will spread as the Aiel with Perrin mix again with the others.

Cairhien, Murandy, Altara, Amadica, Ghealdan and Perrin must all be looking forward to the day the Shaido WO would be released.. to do what? Become peacekeepers with the other Aiel? They belong more with the Ayyad than anything. The whole south lived in terror of those Aiel slavers for a while, the Seanchan did everyone a favor by putting an end to that. They're poster girls for their worldview.

fionwe1987
02-06-2013, 01:45 PM
The numbers cannot really be pinned down from what I have seen...where did you get the 200 count? This figure is during the split, the Rebel Camp doesn't even account for any of the totals:



And don't forget the Kin are at the very least TWICE as numerous as the current sisters, the Windfinders are not accounted for in channeling numbers, nor are the Aiel.
I think he's talking about post-Last Battle. But I'm not sure the number is correct. The Yellows mostly survived unscathed. And we don't know the numbers that survived Egwene's rampage, or the numbers with Cadsuane and how many of those survived. For some reason, only 400 or so sisters were with Egwene in Kandor, and we hear of no fresh numbers being added since then. It seems like Brandon forgot that a third of the Aes Sedai sat out the Tower conflict, and would have come back once the rebellion was done. Some joined the Dragon-sworn, apparently, but we don't know what the rest did. I highly doubt they avoided the Last Battle. But we don't know how many of them survived.

fionwe1987
02-06-2013, 01:52 PM
The Peace of the Dragon forbids that.

Few damane will ever want to be released.

They might save some Aes Sedai this way, assuming Fortuona doesn't manage to dither and delay long enough that most will have been broken. She's certainly counting on that.

It's probably too late for most Kinswomen/wilders captured.

Its debatable the Seanchan system of breaking women will be effective if they know there's hope for release. We haven't seen how a broken AS will react to the offer of being released. Sure, they'll be nervous wrecks, but I doubt they'll not leap at the chance of freedom. A few months or years of captivity can break down resistance, but it can't erase many years worth of memories.

And then there's the fresh sparkers who'll be born in Altara, Tanchico and Amadicia. They'll all now have the option of going to the Tower. As will their learners, actually. And if the Aes Sedai keep recruiting, their numbers will soon dwarf the damane by a huge margin, since they don't lose the large majority of channelers available to them. The Seanchan can never match White Tower numbers, since most of their channelers will be doomed to be sul'dam, impatient for being "complete" with damane, never having enough damane to satisfy them. How long before they start thinking of making the trip to Tar Valon?

As for the Shaido, their Wise Ones will be made da'tsang, probably. And some may even be slated for execution. None of those things matches the a'dam, and I see neither the Aiel nor the Aes Sedai giving up on their principled opposition to the a'dam just to be rid of criminal channelers. That goes against their very opposition to the a'dam as too wrong to be used on anyone. I doubt they'd even accept it on Moghedien, long term.

Dom
02-06-2013, 02:09 PM
The numbers cannot really be pinned down from what I have seen...where did you get the 200 count? This figure is during the split, the Rebel Camp doesn't even account for any of the totals:

It's a number I've seen bandied around, it seemed a bit low to me but I assumed it was an established number.

They really were falling like flies by the time of Egwene's death. A dozen killed here, mentions of many sisters lying dead, mentions that more and more sisters fell dead by exhaustion, or burned out. In one scene Leane described them as scattered in small groups trying to regroup (the one she was in had a dozen AS).

They were around 1000 before the BA purge, the losses to the Seanchan and then their massive losses during the last phase of TG.

It's possible twice that survived, and the Yellow would be the Ajah with fewest casualties, but the losses seemed really high.

I think there was a proportion of their losses by a point of the book, but that stuff is hard to track down.


It doesn't matter that much, my point was that the WT's numbers have declined sharply and a good percentage of sisters will be busy with training for the few years to come.

Enigma
02-06-2013, 02:19 PM
There were a lot of casualties amoung the front line channelers but we don't know how many were in Mayner at the hospital.

Another thing to remember is that the WT is now under new management. Egwene already brought in a lot of changes and Caddy clearly respected the Wilder who taught her and she has spent very little time in the White Tower. I suspect she above all others realises the value of having Sisters out and about being seen, not cooped away in the WT where no one knows them and its easy for the common people to fear them being the big unknown.

Tuon will also want to reclaim the Seanchan continent. With traveling she would have a serious tactical advantage compared to the rebels but I would have thought that if she is serious about reclaiming her home she will want to consolidate her rule in Randland and build up her forces to reclaim Seanchan not go picking fights with the Aes Sedai or the Asha'man or the other nations. Even if some of her people were inclined to fight a war on two fronts I'm sure Mat will point out what a terrible idea that is.

Dom
02-06-2013, 02:35 PM
And don't forget the Kin are at the very least TWICE as numerous as the current sisters, the Windfinders are not accounted for in channeling numbers, nor are the Aiel.

I was talking of the AS, since we were talking about the arrangements discussed between Egwene and the Seanchan.

Egwene wasn't talking for any of the other groups in this. Nor the nations. It was strictly between them and TV.

SauceyBlueConfetti
02-06-2013, 03:19 PM
I was talking of the AS, since we were talking about the arrangements discussed between Egwene and the Seanchan.

Egwene wasn't talking for any of the other groups in this. Nor the nations. It was strictly between them and TV.

Sorry, that part of my post was directed at someone else...more to the point of how many people were available to train wilders and new channelers. :) :( :)

sleepinghour
02-06-2013, 03:40 PM
I think there was a proportion of their losses by a point of the book, but that stuff is hard to track down.


The 200 figure probably came from Bryne's comment early on, which only referred to Egwene's force. Of Egwene's 370 Aes Sedai (many of whom were Greens), 250 remained in chapter 21.

After Egwene's death in chapter 37, Arganda reported that the Aes Sedai had lost over half their numbers, which I'm guessing also only referred to Egwene's force, but it doesn't sound too unlikely that the Tower as a whole lost half considering that many Aes Sedai stationed elsewhere (Berisha, Kiruna, Beldeine, Alanna, etc) died as well.


"And the Aes Sedai?"
"We have somewhere around two hundred and fifty left," Bryne said. "Though a number of those are in shock at having lost Warders."
That was more of a disaster. A hundred and twenty Aes Sedai dead in a matter of hours? The White Tower would require a very long time to recover from that. —Ch 21

"The Amyrlin Seat is dead," Arganda reported.
Blood and bloody ashes, Mat thought. Egwene. Not Egwene too? It hit him like a punch to the face.
"What's more," Arganda continued, "the Aes Sedai report that they have lost over half their numbers. The ones remaining claim ... and this is a quote ... that they 'couldn't channel enough of the One Power to lift a feather.' They’re out of the battle." —Ch 37

codetoast
02-07-2013, 11:35 AM
What if mat's luck persists after hes no longer taverin. You never know. He needs to get his hand on a certain terangreal missing from the white tower, if he doesnt already...

codetoast
02-07-2013, 11:38 AM
Also, heroes of the horn apparently can die in the dream. We have found out HOTH can be wolves, are they counted in the 100? was hopper one? who will take his place(boundless,perrin, noal)?
I also read the scene where noal rescues olver as indicating he is new to the horn, althought i believe this is by no means certain or even implied. Just my initial reaction.

Dom
02-07-2013, 03:07 PM
We have found out HOTH can be wolves, are they counted in the 100?

The Wolves aren't as such HoH.

We found out the Horn of Valere could also call up all the dead wolves, aka The Last Hunt (it called hordes of dead wolves to the valley, not just a few). Hopper would have been shown among them if we were to understand he was there, and thus it's a confirmation that the Wolves are right they meet the final death if killed in TAR, or they just aren't reborn as wolves any longer if they die in TAR, or lose their tie to the Horn anyway.

I've thrown in the theory perhaps Wolfbrothers have been wolves in the distant past, wolves who died the final death and stopped being reborn as wolves, so their wolf persona/memories get wiped out and they go to the soul pool. But it seems more likely that Hopper and Perrin are bound. Hopper had to die (in EOTW) so he would run in TAR and be Perrin's Spirit Guide. There may be clues in EOTW, hints that when dying Hopper got "merged" or bound to Perrin. Isam sure implied that Perrin was somehow merged with something else.

Hopper's soul might be reborn... as an eagle maybe. He'd have liked that. Or maybe's he's really gone, we'll never know.

It seems that dying in TAR cuts a wolf's tie to the Horn of Valere.

So the wolves were not really "HoH". They're something different, also tied to the Horn. They were not called to Falme.

It's not very clear in the book, but it was implied perhaps they needed the Wolf King for the Horn to be able to call the Last Hunt. Perrin wasn't in TGH. They've pestered Perrin about running with them for the Last Hunt and at the end for leading them in the last hunt long enough.

At Falme they weren't there, nor at Merrilor, and they're not part of the 100 HoH. They were the Last Hunt. They're similar to the Heroes.. they are dead in TAR and they retain their memories while there. They're The Last Hunt. The two groups are separate, they don't even see each other while in TAR.

The second time the Horn was sounded at SG it didn't call the Heroes (again), it called the Last Hunt.