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Cortar
01-26-2013, 01:42 PM
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Okay, so about this new sa'angreal that Demandred has. Is it the mysterious "2nd most powerful sa-angreal" that Lanfear mentioned oh so long ago or was it created by Demandred + his channellers?

Was Demandred bluffing about it being "attuned" to him? Were there any flaws with it?

padfoot89
01-27-2013, 01:40 AM
Pretty daring bluff if Demandred was lying about it. I don't think he was lying though. There was always a chance that if Taim failed, it could end up in opposition hands. I don't think he'd take a chance like that.

Terez
01-27-2013, 03:13 AM
I'm guessing it's supposed to be the other sa'angreal, since that's the sort of thing Brandon likes to do.

Demon
01-27-2013, 05:32 PM
I find it kind of hard to believe that there was this hugely powerful Sa'angreal that no one knew about until AMOL.

Davian93
01-27-2013, 05:39 PM
I'm guessing it's supposed to be the other sa'angreal, since that's the sort of thing Brandon likes to do.

That's my guess too but I'm hoping that it was made by Demandred as that would make Demandred way cooler overall.

Lost One
01-27-2013, 05:46 PM
This thread got me to thinking. While there are still many Angreal and Sangreal in existance, evidently many are either not identified as such or scattered around or not in use. Some evidently are weaker than others, or have a flaw of some kind, and not the the perfect amplifiers we were led to believe that they were in early books. However, like the most powerful of legendary weapons such as the swords Excalibur and Durandal, the big ones had names. I had thought Callandor was the 2nd most powerful, but according to this thread it was not. Is there a list of them and their rating/standing compared with others. The only ones I know of in this case are:

1. The Chodan Kal + access keys
2. Demandred's scepter
3. Callandor
4. Vora's Sangreal

These ae the .44 magnums of Sangreal. Other known angreal are Rand's Fatman (always thought of this as Bhudda-like appearance), Moraine's female with long hair, Moraine's Ivory acrobat bracelet. I seem to remember Cadsuanne having one in her arsenal. Also, was not one used in TGH to try and sever Mat from the Dagger as well as used on him when they ddi sever him from the dagger in Tar Valon, or was that Vora's that was used there. I am away on business so do not have access to my library, so I cannot double check. Does anyone know of any others? I think that this would be a pretty cool list to build, if not done already.

Kimon
01-27-2013, 05:55 PM
This thread got me to thinking. While there are still many Angreal and Sangreal in existance, evidently many are either not identified as such or scattered around or not in use. Some evidently are weaker than others, or have a flaw of some kind, and not the the perfect amplifiers we were led to believe that they were in early books. However, like the most powerful of legendary weapons such as the swords Excalibur and Durandal, the big ones had names. I had thought Callandor was the 2nd most powerful, but according to this thread it was not. Is there a list of them and their rating/standing compared with others. The only ones I know of in this case are:

1. The Chodan Kal + access keys
2. Demandred's scepter
3. Callandor
4. Vora's Sangreal

These ae the .44 magnums of Sangreal. Other known angreal are Rand's Fatman (always thought of this as Bhudda-like appearance), Moraine's female with long hair, Moraine's Ivory acrobat bracelet. I seem to remember Cadsuanne having one in her arsenal. Also, was not one used in TGH to try and sever Mat from the Dagger as well as used on him when they ddi sever him from the dagger in Tar Valon, or was that Vora's that was used there. I am away on business so do not have access to my library, so I cannot double check. Does anyone know of any others? I think that this would be a pretty cool list to build, if not done already.

Encyclopedia WOT has a list under the "Items" heading. It doesn't yet include objects first introduced in aMoL, so it lacks Demandred's sa'angreal, and it includes ships alongside the list of sa'angreal, angreal, and ter'angreal. It does seem like there should be a chalice-shaped sa'angreal, nay?

http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/

Terez
01-27-2013, 06:26 PM
I find it kind of hard to believe that there was this hugely powerful Sa'angreal that no one knew about until AMOL.
People did know about it, which was the point. In TSR Lanfear told Rand that only two made sa'angreal more powerful than Callandor were made. She was only sure that one (the Choedan Kal, which she saw with Rand in TGH) still existed.

hippie-joe
01-27-2013, 06:51 PM
I find it kind of hard to believe that there was this hugely powerful Sa'angreal that no one knew about until AMOL.

early in the series lanfear tells rand that there are only two sa'angreal more powerful than calandor i cant recall where that is but i do recall it.
it also mentions that angreal are personal so why would sa'angreal be any different.

Lost One
01-27-2013, 07:03 PM
Encyclopedia WOT has a list under the "Items" heading. It doesn't yet include objects first introduced in aMoL, so it lacks Demandred's sa'angreal, and it includes ships alongside the list of sa'angreal, angreal, and ter'angreal. It does seem like there should be a chalice-shaped sa'angreal, nay?

http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/

I had not seen this so it helps. Is there any ratings/rankings on them to determine which are more powerful?

Zombie Sammael
01-27-2013, 07:03 PM
People did know about it, which was the point. In TSR Lanfear told Rand that only two made sa'angreal more powerful than Callandor were made. She was only sure that one (the Choedan Kal, which she saw with Rand in TGH) still existed.

*that a man can use - otherwise we'd have been sure she was just talking about the Choedan Kal.

Res_Ipsa
01-27-2013, 07:34 PM
That's my guess too but I'm hoping that it was made by Demandred as that would make Demandred way cooler overall.

Rand said in AMoL that to create angreal it would drain one for awhile. So I like your idea and it might account for why Demandred was AFK for so long, it took a great deal of time (which to AoL channelers would not matter as much) and left the Sharan contingent greatly weakened for a time.

Also, I was kind of bummed that I was right about the Sharan's showing up like the Easterlings.

Dom
01-27-2013, 09:20 PM
Rand said in AMoL that to create angreal it would drain one for awhile. So I like your idea and it might account for why Demandred was AFK for so long, it took a great deal of time (which to AoL channelers would not matter as much) and left the Sharan contingent greatly weakened for a time.

It's hard to reconcile with comments by Mesaana that Demandred wanted an angreal just as badly as the rest, if she knew he had the Talent to make one. She must have known about Bao the Wyld, just like Demandred knew where Semirhage and her were hidden. But she doesn't appear to have found out about his san'angreal.

They all would have known if any of of them had the Talent for this. It's not like Barid Bel was a nobody, and the Forsaken have studied their rivals in great details.

Demandred would never have taken that risk anyway. Weakened for months, when he has to hang around the Chosen who could easily puzzle out why he's being so... reclusive. Nah. He also had to hang around Ayyad a lot.

I'm not quite sure what I think the timeline of Bao's rise will turn out to be, if it's fairly early in the series, or circa the mid-series after Graendal threw Shara in chaos by kidnapping the Ayyad's two figureheads.

My hunch is that this event fitted in the Sharan prophecies (I'm one of those who believe Ishamael tampered with Sharan prophecies as he did in Seanchan, but I think like the Essanik Cycle it's likely that a whole lot of them are true prophecies). In the end, it seems that The Wyld was probably Rand, if the prophecies were real.

He's the one who "remade the world", after a fashion. It's probably the whole "anti-Dragon" stuff that's corrupted/added/misinterpreted. I wouldn't be surprised we'll hear of some kind of ancient Prophet in Shara we will be able to guess was Ishamael, either in River of Souls or in the Encyclopedia. Ishamael was ever a boaster. He claimed it was his goal to send Luthair oversea and make it sound like it was the plan all along he'd rise to Emperor there (he also spoke of the sending of the armies oversea as "sealing two dooms", one was the fall of Hawkwing, the second one still to come. It's now uncertain if he was speaking of the Return, or actually of the arrival of the Sharans).

I don't think it's a very likely story. I think Moerad's goal was to destroy Hawkwing's legacy, sending Luthair to his doom facing the Armies of the Night, and his sister to her doom facing the Ayyad. Neither was expected to survive. His plan worked to a large extent for the sister, but no sooner Moerad found himself bound and unable to interfere again that Luthair found an unlikely ally in that woman who gave him the a'dam, and won a very unexpected victory against the Armies of the Night, freeing the people from them. I suspect Ishamael had plans involving those Armies of the Night to serve the Shadow in the LB, and Luthair totally destroyed them. Only Shara was "preserved". I guess what the Seanchan lived under the Armies of the Night probably made the Paendrags look like the most benevolent rulers in comparison.

I don't know if anyone else noticed, but we seem to have seen a grolm in the Blight in AMOL. It looks like perhaps some of the Seanchan beasts might have been domesticated Shadowspawn after all. We had been told the Seanchan believe those beast destroyed the Trollocs, but Shadowspawn commonly attack one another.

GonzoTheGreat
01-28-2013, 04:18 AM
early in the series lanfear tells rand that there are only two sa'angreal more powerful than calandor i cant recall where that is but i do recall it.
Because I kept having trouble finding the precise quote, I'll give it now that I did refind it:
"I cannot trust you fully, Lews Therin. Not yet." She came closer, and he considered simply seizing her. He was bigger and stronger by far and blocked as he was, she could wrap him up with the Power like a kitten tangled in a ball of string. "Not with that, certainly," she added, grimacing at Callandor. "There are only two more powerful that a man can use. One at least, I know, still exists. No, Lews Therin. I will not trust you yet with that."
The one that she knows still exists is of course the male half of the Choedan Kal, which she'd seen Rand (almost) use in TGH.

maacaroni
01-28-2013, 04:37 AM
Ishamael was ever a boaster. He claimed it was his goal to send Luthair oversea and make it sound like it was the plan all along he'd rise to Emperor there (he also spoke of the sending of the armies oversea as "sealing two dooms", one was the fall of Hawkwing, the second one still to come. It's now uncertain if he was speaking of the Return, or actually of the arrival of the Sharans).

I don't think it's a very likely story. I think Moerad's goal was to destroy Hawkwing's legacy, sending Luthair to his doom facing the Armies of the Night, and his sister to her doom facing the Ayyad. Neither was expected to survive. His plan worked to a large extent for the sister, but no sooner Moerad found himself bound and unable to interfere again that Luthair found an unlikely ally in that woman who gave him the a'dam, and won a very unexpected victory against the Armies of the Night, freeing the people from them. I suspect Ishamael had plans involving those Armies of the Night to serve the Shadow in the LB, and Luthair totally destroyed them. Only Shara was "preserved". I guess what the Seanchan lived under the Armies of the Night probably made the Paendrags look like the most benevolent rulers in comparison.

I don't know if anyone else noticed, but we seem to have seen a grolm in the Blight in AMOL. It looks like perhaps some of the Seanchan beasts might have been domesticated Shadowspawn after all. We had been told the Seanchan believe those beast destroyed the Trollocs, but Shadowspawn commonly attack one another.

A couple of things.

I thought the two dooms were the two armies that set out. One went to Seanchan, and Artur's daughter went to Shara. Those were the two dooms.

And I believe raken, grolm etc were found in portal worlds. Correct me if I'm wrong, its in the Big White Book of Bad Art

Terez
01-28-2013, 06:24 AM
*that a man can use - otherwise we'd have been sure she was just talking about the Choedan Kal.
"made" was supposed to be "male".

Zombie Sammael
01-28-2013, 06:53 AM
"made" was supposed to be "male".

Oh, I see. Lol

hippie-joe
01-28-2013, 07:11 AM
that lanfear knew of two that were greater than callandor suggests that demondred's sa'angreal was from the AOL, possibly stashed there like callandor was in tear. my guess is that it is the one she knew about because she didn't know about the access keys being hidden in the waste. if she had i think it likely she would have retrieved them before she did anything.

Demon
01-28-2013, 05:30 PM
People did know about it, which was the point. In TSR Lanfear told Rand that only two made sa'angreal more powerful than Callandor were made. She was only sure that one (the Choedan Kal, which she saw with Rand in TGH) still existed.

early in the series lanfear tells rand that there are only two sa'angreal more powerful than calandor i cant recall where that is but i do recall it.
it also mentions that angreal are personal so why would sa'angreal be any different.

Well i know that guys. I just meant that this hugely powerful thing wasnt mentioned by name and was only mentioned about once at any point in the series.

hippie-joe
01-28-2013, 09:01 PM
Well i know that guys. I just meant that this hugely powerful thing wasnt mentioned by name and was only mentioned about once at any point in the series.

it didn't really have a part in the story up till the end, a wyld card if you will. we knew it was there we just didn't know if or when or where it would ever show up.

and i'll say it again. i believe it was the one lanfear know where it was. probably in some protective shield like callandor was.

demondred mentioned that the sharans had their own prophecies and he fulfilled them. i bet probably in a similar manor that rand did for the prophecies we knew of.

maybe even placed there shielded by demondred himself in the AOL for safe keeping, which is why lanfear knew it still existed.

Marie Curie 7
01-28-2013, 09:19 PM
I had not seen this so it helps. Is there any ratings/rankings on them to determine which are more powerful?

If you click on the description for many of the angreal and sa'angreal given in the Encyclopaedia WoT list of "Items", a general strength is listed. However, I would not necessarily trust any of the strength listings for angreal/sa'angreal that are not described in the books. Any strengths not given in the books were taken by EWoT from the WoT RPG, for which RJ said he had little input:

Interview: Oct 4th, 2005
Robert Jordan's Blog: ONE MORE TIME (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=212#6)

Robert Jordan: For Infested Templar, I had little to do with the RPG. Mainly my role was limited to telling them that they could not have paladins, ninjas, clerics, shuriken, etc. I had to put so much time into that fighting that I washed my hands of the rest, I'm afraid. I could see that trying to make them actually adapt the books was going to be Valmy Ridge all over again. At least I managed to stop them from putting in a ter'angreal that could bring on the Last Battle in some unspecified manner and also some other really terrible ideas. I wish I had been able to do more, but I had a book to write.

Marie Curie 7
01-28-2013, 09:38 PM
I don't know if anyone else noticed, but we seem to have seen a grolm in the Blight in AMOL. It looks like perhaps some of the Seanchan beasts might have been domesticated Shadowspawn after all. We had been told the Seanchan believe those beast destroyed the Trollocs, but Shadowspawn commonly attack one another.

What page is this? It's not a grolm, unless somehow one got loose or something. :s

And I believe raken, grolm etc were found in portal worlds. Correct me if I'm wrong, its in the Big White Book of Bad Art

Yes, the BWB states that they were originally brought to Seanchan from Parallel Worlds.

BWB, Chapter 18: Exotic Animals of Seanchan

When Luthair Paendrag's armies began their conquest of Seanchan, they confronted not only the terrifying Aes Sedai who freely used the Power as a military weapon, but strange beasts out of nightmare that flew at them from above or attacked them with claws and teeth, often tearing men from their saddles to devour them on the spot. From horned frog-creatures the size of large bears to horse-sized catlike animals, these creatures seemed as if they could only have come from the evil of Shadow. It was thus, between the Aes Sedai and the creatures believed to be some new kind of Shadowspawn, that the defenders of this new continent came to be known as the Armies of the Night.

These strange new creatures were not Shadowspawn at all, but the descendants of beasts brought back from parallel worlds, via Portal Stones, during the first thousand years after the Breaking, probably in an attempt to find aid against the real Shadowspawn. While the creatures' effectiveness was not recorded, it was during this same period that all remaining Shadowspawn on the continent were eradicated. The creatures remained, their care and training surviving through all the political upheavals until Luthair's arrival. The knowledge that allowed their procurement by way of the Portal Stones, however, was lost.

By the time Luthair invaded, such creatures as the grolm, torm, lopar, corlm, raken, and to'raken were used throughout the armies of the area. After his successful conquest, Luthair adopted them into his own armies, like his newly leashed damane. His descendants continue the tradition. The animals are currently maintained as an essential part of the military, with their handlers and trainers assured an honored place in the hierarchy.

RJ also confirmed that the Seanchan animals were from other worlds:

Interview: 2001
Thus Spake the Creator (Paraphrased) (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=319#57)

Question: Were the Seanchan animals created before or after the Shadowspawn?

Robert Jordan: They are the 'exotics'. They were brought to Randland from parallel dimensions (like in the Portal Stones). When Rand saw grolm in the Portal Stone world, he was seeing them in the native 'land'.

Now, though these answers confirm that the Seanchan animals are from another world, they are still a little confusing. Since the Portal Stones connect Mirror Worlds rather than Parallel Worlds, it is not clear whether RJ meant them to be from Mirror Worlds or Parallel Worlds. However, it is definite that they are not Shadowspawn.

In addition, to'raken, for example, passed through gateways in AMoL:

AMoL, Ch. 40 - Wolfbrother

Gateways in the sky. Dozens of them, and through them poured to'raken in flight, carrying lanterns. A fiery flight of arrows launched at the Trollocs in the corridor; the to'raken, carrying archers, flew in formation over the ford and the corridor beyond.

So, unless we're now to assume that to'raken are a "more perfected" form of Shadowspawn like the gholam, they shouldn't be able to pass through gateways if they're Shadowspawn.

Dom
01-28-2013, 10:04 PM
I was talking of just grolm, not the others.

But I didn't remember RJ had confirmed the "speculative" information from the BWB was true.

We hear of a three-eyed monster in the Blight. I thought it could have been a grolm.

I don't know what to make of RJ's answer that the Mirror World in which the Shadowspawn had won the Trolloc Wars and exterminated pretty much everything except grolms is the "native world" of those animals.

That makes them sound like a cross-breed of some sort.

Lanfear appeared to know lots about them, but actually in her explanation she just gave them the profile of darkhounds.

fionwe1987
01-28-2013, 10:56 PM
So, unless we're now to assume that to'raken are a "more perfected" form of Shadowspawn like the gholam, they shouldn't be able to pass through gateways if they're Shadowspawn.
None of the Seanchan animals are Shadowspawn, or some Aes Sedai or Warder would have commented on the feeling they get around Shadowspawn. Only Gholam are exempt from that, and they also happen to be the only Shadowspawn Rand knows of that can pass through Gateways. I doubt any more Shadowspawn were perfected after the Sealing.

Marie Curie 7
01-28-2013, 11:27 PM
I was talking of just grolm, not the others.

But I didn't remember RJ had confirmed the "speculative" information from the BWB was true.

We hear of a three-eyed monster in the Blight. I thought it could have been a grolm.

Yeah, all it says is that there were some creatures with three eyes:

AMoL, Ch. 35 – A Practiced Grin

So far, they'd lost fifteen people to hazards of the Blight, including five killed by some horrible three-eyed things that had attacked the camp yesterday morning. He'd overheard Lady Faile saying that she considered them lucky to have lost only fifteen so far, that it could have been worse.

So it could have been anything, including animals native to Randland that were corrupted by the Blight.

Also, grolm are not the only ones of the Seanchan exotics that have three eyes – torm do as well.


None of the Seanchan animals are Shadowspawn, or some Aes Sedai or Warder would have commented on the feeling they get around Shadowspawn. Only Gholam are exempt from that, and they also happen to be the only Shadowspawn Rand knows of that can pass through Gateways. I doubt any more Shadowspawn were perfected after the Sealing.

Yes, I know they are not Shadowspawn. In fact, I just posted two quotes to support that. Dom was the one who was suggesting that grolm might be Shadowspawn, so I pointed out that RJ confirmed that they were not. And then I noted that other Seanchan exotics passed through gateways with no ill effects, and thus the comment of mine that you quoted above was meant to highlight that it was not really likely that there were other "more perfected" Shadowspawn beyond the gholam.