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Zergconsul
01-26-2013, 10:41 PM
Yada yada Ayala. Blah sfinvfvkwrmv wjvojwrvojefvojefovj

Wvojorjvwronvwindeowromw

Wowed

Hope that blocks spoilers.

Been a lurker for a while and been searching the threads unable to find this.

BS mentions (off canon) in his reddit interview that Elayne and Avi would probably rule their people for a few centuries before joining Rand and Min.

Does that mean Min is now long lived as well? How did that happen?

Terez
01-26-2013, 10:59 PM
Probably a misstatement on his part. I don't think he meant to imply Min would live that long; in fact, his previous comments about Rand going to live with her first would suggest that she wouldn't, hence spending more time with her before she dies. But either way, I wouldn't read too much into it since apparently RJ did not leave much in the way of notes on this.

Cortar
01-26-2013, 11:05 PM
Probably a misstatement on his part. I don't think he meant to imply Min would live that long; in fact, his previous comments about Rand going to live with her first would suggest that she wouldn't, hence spending more time with her before she dies. But either way, I wouldn't read too much into it since apparently RJ did not leave much in the way of notes on this.

So is he still implying that Rand will live centuries even though he can't channel anymore?

Terez
01-26-2013, 11:58 PM
He seems to be, but it's hard to say whether he has a reason for thinking that or not. I'd say it's more likely Rand will live centuries than Min will, and I think his comments imply that, but it's hardly concrete. It definitely doesn't appear to be ruled out in the notes that Rand will still live centuries, and with his mysterious new powers (about which Brandon says he knows nothing), it's not difficult to imagine how that would be possible.

Zergconsul
01-27-2013, 12:05 AM
Thanks Terez. Certainly makes sense. That would have been way too much dues ex machina happening (still dislike Nakomi- why have a Nakomi character speaking to Rand if the creator can speak with him?)

GonzoTheGreat
01-27-2013, 04:37 AM
Thanks Terez. Certainly makes sense. That would have been way too much dues ex machina happening (still dislike Nakomi- why have a Nakomi character speaking to Rand if the creator can speak with him?)
The DO had a Nae'blis, the Creator obviously has a Nak'omi. Aviendha just heard her wrong, that's all.

Zergconsul
01-27-2013, 10:22 AM
That's valid, but the Dragon should be the one playing that role. I don't buy the argument that he is only the pattern's champion. Since, the creator made both the pattern and put in the dark one (or however he came in) to allow for free will, the dragon's role in bringing balance is, essentially, the creator's agenda. Hence, he is the light's champion. The creator told him as much in tEotw, when he said that only the chosen one may take a part, if he so chooses. There is no role in this for another champion or Nakomi. I wonder if this is a BS artifact ala Hoid. The woman at SG may have just been Rand hallucinating or unable to recognize Amys or something (I know this sounds lame).

Dom
01-27-2013, 12:03 PM
He seems to be, but it's hard to say whether he has a reason for thinking that or not. I'd say it's more likely Rand will live centuries than Min will, and I think his comments imply that, but it's hardly concrete. It definitely doesn't appear to be ruled out in the notes that Rand will still live centuries, and with his mysterious new powers (about which Brandon says he knows nothing), it's not difficult to imagine how that would be possible.

I agree. Brandon certainly has a big advantage on us, and it's that he's read RJ's notes pertinent to the ending. He knows what's there, and he's got a much better grasp than we can have of what isn't there, and for some things he knows what were RJ's open options from which he had to pick one and discard another (and he doesn't want to open the "did he make the right choices" can of worms).

Other than that, he's in much the same position we are, and he's pointed that out a few times now. Not that we should not ask him more questions - I'm sure there's more in the vein of "RJ specified Asha'man don't become male Aes Sedai/RJ was undecided whether he would let Elayne get Cairhien before Merrilor (though Brandon made it sounds like the decision he had to make was between Elayne taking Cairhien or Rand giving it to her at Merrilor... we should ask Brandon for precisions...)/" to fish for, but it's pretty clear there isn't much in RJ's fourth age "pond". He would have filled it up to an extent only as he developed the outriggers. Other than that, RJ didn't need the Fourth Age, and it all gives the feeling that while he's been the Old Testament God to the Third Age, he was also the Creator to the Fourth. He let go, his universe was to live on without him shaping it as he wished aside from a few grounds rules (channeling remains, the conflict with the Seanchan isn't resolved, there's the Peace, and Cadsuane as Amyrlin, the Asha'man/AS don't merge, Singing doesn't return, the Aiel become peacekeepers as they used to be in the AOL but this isn't an Age in which they could just be symbols of those ideals by totally embracing non-violence, it's an Age in which they have to take the necessary means for peace to come, and remain. That's the final shape of RJ's views on pacifism: a worthy ideal, but refusing to take the means to ensure peace is possible, which includes waging war when it's the only solution, is only making those who don't want peace or who won't refuse to conquer/enslave or use force win. The series ends with a condemnation of the Tinkers and the Aiel becoming some sort of Gai'shain Aiel: Peacekeepers, rather than the idealist Da'shain Aiel of the AOL.

The only thing I think there might be somewhere are RJ's notes on the general shape of the seven Ages, because it has some bearing on keeping the few things he let us know of the global metaphysics consistent, but if he wrote that down somewhere I doubt it's something he would have wanted us to have. He rarely gave us much of anything at least one character didn't know.


is mysterious new powers (about which Brandon says he knows nothing)

He's being a bit disingenuous with this, I think.

I'm sure he's telling the truth about what RJ gave no explanation for etc. I'm sure he didn't directly explained the pipe, the transmigration, what powers Rand has at the end specifically.

OTOH if Brandon was so inclined he could tell us what he thinks it's all about and why he thinks it's the explanation. Unlike us, Brandon knows what are the key points and the clues in RJ's notes for the ending, and what is his own "expansion".

There are parts in the confrontation with Shai'tan that read much like notes left by RJ rewritten/integrated by Brandon. This line, for instance: "Rand knew this struggle between them—the fight for what could be— was vital to the Last Battle. Rand could not weave the future. He was not the Wheel, nor anything like it. For everything that had happened to him, he was still merely a man."

That reads much like notes on limitations/how to portray what goes on.

Another was this one: "Fragments of the Pattern . . . threads . . . suddenly spun before Rand, splitting from the main body of light like hundreds of tiny flowing streams. He knew this was not actually the Pattern, no more than what he saw as himself was actually his body. In interpreting something so vast as the fabric of creation, his mind needed some kind of imagery. This was what his consciousness chose.

The threads spun, not unlike threads in a weave of the One Power, only there were thousands upon thousands of them, and the colors were more varied, more vibrant."


If Brandon confirmed to us if these two passages are more or less directly RJ's (in the sense that they originate from his notes on the confrontation) we could circumscribe what happens at the end much better, on better footing.

Assuming they come from RJ, it does look a lot like Rand's experience/gained knowledge of the Pattern now lets him alter it in small ways, in ways that the Wheel won't correct.

A great deal about Rand's ending seems to relate to anonymity and non interference. His role is done. He cheated death, and that probably has something to do with Moridin wanting death and oblivion while Rand, fascinated by life, wanted the chance to experience as much of possible of the "wonders of Creation" he had decided to ensure the continuation of (which will further strengthen the faith of the Dragon's Soul, incidentally. Rand has to believe more than any other soul in the Creator's vision).

He stole the body Moridin didn't want (and which wasn't his anyway): Moridin got Rand's death, and Rand got Moridin's life. That happened at a specific location, where all worlds were merged and "anything was possible". Rand got away with this before the barriers were back with the disappearance of the Bore, which allowed the metempsychosis (another big clue about this comes from a remark by Shazaam about Shadar Logoth's proximity to a certain location (Ghenjei, it seems obvious) and how SG could let him recreate another. Mordeth's own metempsychosis happened at Shadar Logoth, had to happen there).

Rand's now a wanderer (a "horse-thief"), just another thread in the Pattern whose future life choices won't alter the Pattern in any great way, in complete contrast with his former role of Dragon. But he probably could. He has knowledge no incarnated human is supposed to have. He could cheat and alter the Pattern, but he won't, and would most likely find the Wheel's corrective mechanisms soon in his way, trying to remove this undesirable soul from the Pattern.

But everything he's experienced during the confrontation teached him why he must refrain from interference now - and its this knowledge and his acceptance of this that probably makes his "new life" possible. Rand isn't the Creator, but he now understands what the Creator is and he models himself on Him. He leaves the world to its choices, now he's made his own, the one he was meant to make (and the fundamental one, for all Creation). The Creator isn't a gardener who creates then moves on not caring what happens (it's Moridin's vision of things, the Pattern as a playground/prison). He's rather a gardener who created and set a few rules to maintain balance, then stood aside to watch in endless wonder as its Creation took a life of its own, went in all sort of new directions, evolved. He's not moved on, he watches, amazed. But among the rules the Creator has placed a fail safe Shai'tan would never have put there: he lets Creation know there's another choice, and lets them free to make that other choice. "I'm your God and I made this, but see... there's this other God and you're free to choose him over me". Rand and Shai'tan played with various versions of Creation before in the end Rand embraced the Creator's vision of it, and Rand brought it back to that state by removing the Bore, not altering anything else in it. He put Creation back to the care of the Wheel of Time and the Creator's programming.

Whatever and whoever Nakomi is, she appears to have the same knowledge/powers Rand gained. Is she another human who somehow found a way to cheat, the Light's counterpart of Shaidar Haran (a random old Aiel woman the Creator temporarily invested to observe and nudge a bit, nothing big as the Wheel is probably programmed to counter the Creator himself much like it counters Shai'tan's attempts) or another Hero that in another Age played a role that gave her the Dragon's knowledge of the Pattern (a kind of female version of the Dragon)? Is she some kind of special soul who acts as Guardian of the Wheel and that the merging of dimensions temporarily let enter the "mortal realm"? We'll probably never know, but I get the feeling if Brandon told us what he found in the notes exactly, we'd have a better footing to speculate about the ending, but I'm very wary of the fact they all seem terribly hesitant to tell us what it's all about (seemingly this includes RJ himself). They all seem to think the series is better without that explanation, as if it would open a whole can of worms/pandora's box.

Perhaps I'm wrong and they only go on instinct that this touch too much the metaphysics and it's not answers RJ meant for us to have, but I get the feeling they also go on intuition that the answers would be even more frustrating.

In any case, she appears to be a female version of Rand in some way, which makes sense since unlike Shai'tan the Creator's essence is fundamentally divided in a male and female aspect. She has no real bearing on the series, she just exists. If Brandon told us everything (not omitting to tell us "RJ wrote this, but I added the old woman to the scene"), she apparently had a cameo in RJ's scene where Rand exited SG.

It's not impossible what TJ tracked down in RJ's notes are clues to what/who was this mysterious Aiel woman in the exit scene, and Brandon decided he needed to "build" to that by creating an episode with her appearing to Aviendha before Rhuidean, creating a character out of what the notes said of Rand's "hidden female half"/Spirit Guide.