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Ieyasu
01-29-2013, 07:33 PM
what is the difference between an angreal and a sa'angreal?

Previously, I had thought the difference was merely the amount of power accessible. an angreal multiplied a channeler's amount, and a sa'angreal multiplied it by even more.

However, I am not sure we have ever seen a single sa'angreal that has a buffer. I wonder if the lack of a top-end buffer is the true difference between them?

Davian93
01-29-2013, 07:59 PM
what is the difference between an angreal and a sa'angreal?

Previously, I had thought the difference was merely the amount of power accessible. an angreal multiplied a channeler's amount, and a sa'angreal multiplied it by even more.

However, I am not sure we have ever seen a single sa'angreal that has a buffer. I wonder if the lack of a top-end buffer is the true difference between them?

Both Choedan Kal had buffers...which is why Nynaeve wasn't burned out by Rand during the Cleansing.

JayDee
01-29-2013, 08:06 PM
Both Choedan Kal had buffers.For some reason I thought they didn't, that the buffering function was provided by the access keys ter'angreal.

Lazarus
01-29-2013, 09:33 PM
However, I am not sure we have ever seen a single sa'angreal that has a buffer. I wonder if the lack of a top-end buffer is the true difference between them?
You may be right that we haven't ever seen a sa'angreal with a buffer.

They're so rare that we've only seen five in total: the two Choedan Kal, Sakarnen, Callandor and Vora's sa'angreal. With the possible exception of Sakarnen, none of them had their own buffer, and they could not be used safely other than by ter'angreal or in a circle. We don't know whether Vora's sa'angreal could be used safely even in that way. And we don't know whether Sakarnen had a buffer.

However, we know that Vora's sa'angreal was "[o]ne of the few sa'angreal in the Tower's possession" (TDR, Ch 18), which permits the conclusion that there exist other sa'angreal that we have not seen.

Cadsuane said of Callandor that it is "flawed, lacking the buffer that makes other sa'angreal safe to use" (TPOD, Ch 27). If you are prepared to assume that the "other sa'angreal" to which she refers are those in the Tower's possession, then at least Cadsuane must be regarded as believing that those sa'angreal are buffered (except for Vora's sa'angreal, which it seems no one including Cadsuane knew anything about).

Good hypothesis though.

Dom
01-29-2013, 10:14 PM
You may be right that we haven't ever seen a sa'angreal with a buffer.

They're so rare that we've only seen five in total: the two Choedan Kal, Sakarnen, Callandor and Vora's sa'angreal. With the possible exception of Sakarnen, none of them had their own buffer, and they could not be used safely other than by ter'angreal or in a circle. We don't know whether Vora's sa'angreal could be used safely even in that way. And we don't know whether Sakarnen had a buffer.

However, we know that Vora's sa'angreal was "[o]ne of the few sa'angreal in the Tower's possession" (TDR, Ch 18), which permits the conclusion that there exist other sa'angreal that we have not seen.

Cadsuane said of Callandor that it is "flawed, lacking the buffer that makes other sa'angreal safe to use" (TPOD, Ch 27). If you are prepared to assume that the "other sa'angreal" to which she refers are those in the Tower's possession, then at least Cadsuane must be regarded as believing that those sa'angreal are buffered (except for Vora's sa'angreal, which it seems no one including Cadsuane knew anything about).

Good hypothesis though.

I find the lack of buffer to Vora's san'angreal most suspicious.

Jordan told us both in the series via Cadsuane and in Q&A that this isn't normal, it's a flaw that occured because Callandor had been made during the WoS at a point where the Aes Sedai had to rush its making and didn't have anymore all the technical resources. The LTT memories also give us a clue it's fancy work when the matter of LTT's terror about the "untested" CK surfaced.

It's always possible that the Tower's most powerful san'angreal also just happens to be a san'angreal from the WOS and similarly flawed, but given the lack of any foreshadowing for this (eg: Cadsuane speaking of some san'angreal being flawed instead of pinpointing Callandor) I suspect it became flawed after someone pointed out to Brandon that normally Egwene couldn't burn herself out using a san'angreal, that is if Brandon himself didn't think to include that detail so he could make Egwene's channeling more spectacular and still use the san'angreal in her death scene.

It's highly implausible Cadsuane, all AS in fact, wouldn't know about the flaw of that san'angreal, as this would be part of their novice lectures on the Tower's san'angreal, angreal etc. That Cadsuane had to dig so deep to find out about Callandor suggests it's the only san'angreal or angreal with such a flaw she's aware of.

One reason that makes me believe all this is that normally the Aes Sedai would have been all over The Amyrlin Seat for using this san'angreal on her own. The only safe way to use it would be leading a circle, as the circle would provide a buffer. Silviana, Siuan, the Sitters would have reminded Egwene of this all the time, all the more when Egwene kept using the thing to the point of near exhaustion and thus ran the huge risk of drawing it more powerfully than she could handle at the time.

My guess is that Vora's san'angreal becoming Egwene's weapon is a detail added by Brandon. That storeroom was heavily warded. If it was a simple matter of Traveling into there to bypass the wards and stealing whatever they fancied, one of the female Forsaken would have taken the risk long ago. Graendal in particular would have had no qualms about causing a commotion in the WT if it let her get her hands on powerful tools.

Ieyasu
01-29-2013, 11:03 PM
Both Choedan Kal had buffers...which is why Nynaeve wasn't burned out by Rand during the Cleansing.

Nynaeve was protected by being in a circle, as was Rand during the Cleansing. Rand, solo, on top of Dragonmount showed us that the Choedan Kal had no buffer.

Dom - I am no so sure it is reasonable to assume the average AS knows any such thing. Angreal are rare, and rarely loaned out, Moiraine had hers through the sneakyness of a Spy Master turned Amyrlin Friend. I do not think people can simply walk up and 'check out' an angreal or sa'angreal to use within or take out of the White Tower. I am not so sure Cadsuane would have had any access to the Tower's collection of artifacts of the power since she has apparently spent so little time in the actual Tower itself. Her personal collection comes from a wilder in the Black Hills.

Dom
01-29-2013, 11:53 PM
I do not think people can simply walk up and 'check out' an angreal or sa'angreal to use within or take out of the White Tower.

Where did I imply this?

I said the novices have lectures about such things, thus it's basic knowledge all Aes Sedai are supposed to know, thus the AS wouldn't have been comfortable with the Amyrlin taking the risk of driving herself to near exhaustion while using an unbuffered san'angreal, not when providing her with a second to link with when she was using the thing ensured her safety.

Egwene in TDR mentioned a lectured given to the novices by Anayia devoted to the fluted wand.

Do you really think any AS would give her lecture about this specific san'angreal to the novices without warning them it's only safe to use in a circle as it lacks a buffer? They like to drive such warnings about dangers in their minds at any occasion they have.

Perhaps it doesn't have a buffer, but in this case RJ would have shown Egwene using it in a circle all the time - especially when she was tired as her safety all rests on correctly judging how much Power she could still handle safely of her normal full strength, until in her last scene she did not link (her AS companion died, whatever) and killed herself.

But I think it's more likely Brandon came up with the "no buffer" thing to make his Egwene scene work as he wanted.

Ieyasu
01-30-2013, 12:37 AM
Where did I imply this?

I said the novices have lectures about such things, thus it's basic knowledge all Aes Sedai are supposed to know, thus the AS wouldn't have been comfortable with the Amyrlin taking the risk of driving herself to near exhaustion while using an unbuffered san'angreal, not when providing her with a second to link with when she was using the thing ensured her safety.

Egwene in TDR mentioned a lectured given to the novices by Anayia devoted to the fluted wand.

Do you really think any AS would give her lecture about this specific san'angreal to the novices without warning them it's only safe to use in a circle as it lacks a buffer? They like to drive such warnings about dangers in their minds at any occasion they have.

Perhaps it doesn't have a buffer, but in this case RJ would have shown Egwene using it in a circle all the time - especially when she was tired as her safety all rests on correctly judging how much Power she could still handle safely of her normal full strength, until in her last scene she did not link (her AS companion died, whatever) and killed herself.

But I think it's more likely Brandon came up with the "no buffer" thing to make his Egwene scene work as he wanted.

I am sorry Dom, I was not trying to say you implied anything, merely rambling on with this thought.

I think it is highly odd that such a 'rare' flaw appears so commonly among the only sa'angreal we ever see, which are extremely rare items in of themselves. Sakarnen being the only sa'angreal that we are unsure of. I think the rarity, coupled with faulty information may have lead the AS to teach wrong things in lectures about vora's wand, or perhaps sa'angreal in general. How many people do you think usually get to test, or use them? Considering the use and things they teach of the Oath Rod, they could simply not know at all. The flaw in Callandor was not merely the lack of a buffer, there are quite a few other flaws baked into that sword that makes his answer very Aes Sedai indeed ;)

...eh it was just a fleeting thought... it would be nice to have seen a single sa'angreal have a buffer definitively.

fionwe1987
01-30-2013, 12:49 AM
I find the lack of buffer to Vora's san'angreal most suspicious.

Jordan told us both in the series via Cadsuane and in Q&A that this isn't normal, it's a flaw that occured because Callandor had been made during the WoS at a point where the Aes Sedai had to rush its making and didn't have anymore all the technical resources. The LTT memories also give us a clue it's fancy work when the matter of LTT's terror about the "untested" CK surfaced.

It's always possible that the Tower's most powerful san'angreal also just happens to be a san'angreal from the WOS and similarly flawed, but given the lack of any foreshadowing for this (eg: Cadsuane speaking of some san'angreal being flawed instead of pinpointing Callandor) I suspect it became flawed after someone pointed out to Brandon that normally Egwene couldn't burn herself out using a san'angreal, that is if Brandon himself didn't think to include that detail so he could make Egwene's channeling more spectacular and still use the san'angreal in her death scene.

It's highly implausible Cadsuane, all AS in fact, wouldn't know about the flaw of that san'angreal, as this would be part of their novice lectures on the Tower's san'angreal, angreal etc. That Cadsuane had to dig so deep to find out about Callandor suggests it's the only san'angreal or angreal with such a flaw she's aware of.

One reason that makes me believe all this is that normally the Aes Sedai would have been all over The Amyrlin Seat for using this san'angreal on her own. The only safe way to use it would be leading a circle, as the circle would provide a buffer. Silviana, Siuan, the Sitters would have reminded Egwene of this all the time, all the more when Egwene kept using the thing to the point of near exhaustion and thus ran the huge risk of drawing it more powerfully than she could handle at the time.

My guess is that Vora's san'angreal becoming Egwene's weapon is a detail added by Brandon. That storeroom was heavily warded. If it was a simple matter of Traveling into there to bypass the wards and stealing whatever they fancied, one of the female Forsaken would have taken the risk long ago. Graendal in particular would have had no qualms about causing a commotion in the WT if it let her get her hands on powerful tools.

I'm fairly certain the White Fluted Wand was set up to be the anti-Balefire weapon back in tDR. Its counter is the black fluted wand the BA stole that makes balefire. The two appear fairly close together, and at the same time when Egwene started getting all this info about Balefire that made her curious about it. The set up is all there.

But you're right that its very weird the lack of a buffer isn't mentioned. The worst thing is, Sanderson has Egwene say, several times, that she was using Vora's wand to hold as much of the Power as she could, which she couldn't have said if it didn't have a buffer.

But we've seen that a buffer that a circle or sa'angreal provides isn't foolproof. For one thing, we have the BWB claiming that it was suspected that when Eldrene died, she was using a sa'angreal. For another, we know for a fact that minus the Access Keys, the Choedan Kal would burn someone's ability away. Yet, even with the Key, Rand is able to overdraw on Dragonmount. He essentially broke through the buffer. And once again, in great need when he faced the DO, he drew enough saidin unaided that he could be burned out, even though he was in a link.

All this adds up to me to say that at great need, you can indeed overdraw through the buffer. And I suspect that is what Egwene would have done, under RJ, pushed through the buffer because she knew that if she didn't do so, Shai'tan would have a new entry point into the Pattern. Eldrene was in a desperate situation too, and also in an emotional state (as Rand and Egwene were), and she too was able to push through a buffer.

GonzoTheGreat
01-30-2013, 05:28 AM
For another, we know for a fact that minus the Access Keys, the Choedan Kal would burn someone's ability away. Yet, even with the Key, Rand is able to overdraw on Dragonmount.
He also survived using the thing in TGH. True, he didn't actually do much with it, but he did manage to scare Lanfear, which is fairly impressive when it comes to using power.

fionwe1987
01-30-2013, 08:30 AM
He also survived using the thing in TGH. True, he didn't actually do much with it, but he did manage to scare Lanfear, which is fairly impressive when it comes to using power.
Did he actually use it, or come very close to, though?

Dom
01-30-2013, 10:20 AM
He also survived using the thing in TGH. True, he didn't actually do much with it, but he did manage to scare Lanfear, which is fairly impressive when it comes to using power.

He didn't use it in TGH, he was merely dangerously attracted/lured to it, and about to fall into the pit.

He would have needed to touch it to use it. He stood well away on the edge of the massive hole.

It's implied the CK's buffers are in the ter'angreal access keys.

The epiphany scene is Brandon's. He can't be trusted with OP details.

Lost One
02-01-2013, 12:17 PM
I think that BS tinkered with it to make Egwene's climax memorable.. On the other hand, we have seen that the knowledge taught is not necessarily the absolute truth, ie AH telling Mat that the HotH's would never fight for the shadow no matter who blew the horn.

I also had thought that the access keys to the Ck were themselves the buffers. But it does seem strange that, despite them supposing to have buffers, it does appear that that Sa'angreal do not.

GonzoTheGreat
02-01-2013, 12:18 PM
Maybe the buffers are not quite absolute. So they would protect in normal use, but if one really strains, then drawing more is still possible.

fionwe1987
02-01-2013, 12:46 PM
Maybe the buffers are not quite absolute. So they would protect in normal use, but if one really strains, then drawing more is still possible.
This is what I think. We have two documented cases, and one suspected one, of a channeler being able to overdraw through a sa'angreal thought to have a buffer. To me that says that by straining against it, the buffer can indeed be broken. But I also suspect it requires enormous strength of will to be able to use that Power in a useful way than simply be burned to shreds the minute you overdraw.

Dom
02-01-2013, 12:48 PM
I think that BS tinkered with it to make Egwene's climax memorable.. On the other hand, we have seen that the knowledge taught is not necessarily the absolute truth, ie AH telling Mat that the HotH's would never fight for the shadow no matter who blew the horn.

I also had thought that the access keys to the Ck were themselves the buffers. But it does seem strange that, despite them supposing to have buffers, it does appear that that Sa'angreal do not.

That line of thought doesn't work. It's true enough the knowledge and beliefs of the characters isn't 100% reliable and RJ often had them state as absolute truths things they were quite mistaken about, but in this case we do have absolute knowledge from a Q&A that a san'angreal without a buffer is a flawed one:

"JASON WOLFBROTHER
Was Callandor constructed during the War of Power?
ROBERT JORDAN
Yes.
JASON WOLFBROTHER
Was it used in the War of Power?
ROBERT JORDAN
Yes, that is how the flaw was discovered.
JASON WOLFBROTHER
Why didn't they ward/buffer Callandor?
ROBERT JORDAN
The flaw with Callandor is simply a manufacturing flaw. He went on to talk about how they were at the end of their tech age with only a few sho-wings and jo-cars left. A couple of shocklances were still around but they were not as prevalent as they had been. Anyway they had been mass producing ter'angreal, angreal, and sa'angreal, and there are bound to be flaws with the products. The flaw with Callandor is simply one such flaw.

FOOTNOTE
This is specifically referring to the lack of a buffer."

Cortar
02-02-2013, 04:19 PM
Back to the OP's topic. What do you think is the difference between an Angreal and Sa'angreal? Is it just an arbitrary power level? Like if an Angreal is over lv 5 its classified as a SA? Or is it something else? Has anyone asked RJ about it?

The Unreasoner
02-02-2013, 04:21 PM
Back to the OP's topic. What do you think is the difference between an Angreal and Sa'angreal? Is it just an arbitrary power level? Like if an Angreal is over lv 5 its classified as a SA? Or is it something else? Has anyone asked RJ about it?
This always bugged me, too. And cuendillar: how can they know it's being made stronger by outside forces? It's no more 'unbreakable' than it was before.

Dom
02-02-2013, 05:04 PM
This always bugged me, too. And cuendillar: how can they know it's being made stronger by outside forces? It's no more 'unbreakable' than it was before.

There may have been levels of strength in materials related to cuendillar, ie: it's not impossible to make a form that isn't strong enough to be unbreakable, and in the AOL they made tests on those materials and realized attempts to break them with the OP only increased the level of strength to the point nothing known could break that material. It could during tests like this to "transmute" materials to create something unbreakable with the OP that they end up discovering one they called cuendillar. That the strength only keeps increasing would be kind of scientific theory they indulge in at the Collaam Dann.

We know the AOlers had invented more "artificial" materials that were also terribly hard to destroy if not as purely unbreakable as heartstone itself. A few OP objects that aren't cuendillar were described as terribly hard to destroy.

As for san'angreal, either their making seems more sophisticated than angreal, from the way RJ spoke of their loss of technology, or the way Brandon explained angreal in AMOL is quite simplified from RJ's version (I get the feeling it's that, that the whole thing about parting gifts is Brandon's idea - because his gifts to Aviendha and Min sucked totally, telling Cadsuane to her face he didn't care about her felt like fan service, and so did revealing how angreal are made as the OP fans have been wanting to find that out forever) and he gave us only the first stage of making angreal from RJ's notes with a Seed, not insisting too much about the rest he found there beyond Rand saying "it starts with that", perhaps to hide the fact it's not so likely Elayne will be able to puzzle it on her own or has the means to create a material proper for an angreal). My hunch is the Encyclopedia will reveal more details about their making from the notes and we'll see then).

As for the difference, the Eelfinn implied in a scene written by RJ that the main difference is strength. The Eelfinn said Moiraine's angreal was very strong, almost strong enough to be a san'angreal.

There may be more differences in their making (circle vs. single maker?) or the exact technology behind them, and buffering them seems to rest of somewhat fancy technology.

The principles behind them may also be different. Rand didn't tell Elayne the Seed could be used to make angreal and san'angreal (IRRC), just angreal.

I wished the RJ quote was a full verbatim. Brandon's explanation about angreal while it feels right is somewhat hard to reconcile with RJ's supposed comment that in the WOS they were "mass produced".

The Unreasoner
02-02-2013, 05:31 PM
Maybe angreal have only one channeler's strength banked, and a sa'angreal use a circle*. That way, there would be a limit to angreal strength (one made by Lanfear) that the bracelet approached. Maybe it was even made by Lanfear. IIRC she recognized it for what it was without touching it.

*Or even better, multiple 'banking sessions', as the CK both took time to make and were stronger than a full circle.

Dom
02-02-2013, 06:07 PM
Maybe angreal have only one channeler's strength banked, and a sa'angreal use a circle*. That way, there would be a limit to angreal strength (one made by Lanfear) that the bracelet approached. Maybe it was even made by Lanfear. IIRC she recognized it for what it was without touching it.

*Or even better, multiple 'banking sessions', as the CK both took time to make and were stronger than a full circle.

I think if any of the Chosen had the necessary Talent, we would have known this from one of the others. They would all have be very wary of that Chosen would could make angreal.

It makes a lot of sense that the difference between angreal and san'angreal is that the strongest possible angreal are limited respectively to the strength of LTT or Lanfear (if we accept them both at 100%), while the weakest san'angreal starts just beyond that level of strength not possible for a single channeler.

If that's so, it makes sense the process to make a san'angreal is different. Perhaps each CK was made using a very strong circle of 72, using as many powerful san'angreal as possible.

But... the process is probably more complicated than that. Rand seemed to imply the "seed" drinks up a large part of your ability for months. It could simply mean san'angreal are made by combining several seeds while angreal are made of just one. I think a Seed is a ter'angreal reproducing what the Eelfinn can do.

My hunch is that this is exactly what the Eelfinn have done to Moiraine and Cyndane, by the way, meaning their loss of strength may not be permanent. They'll both recover, very slowly, over months. They didn't drink their ability merely to feast IMO (though it was also that, a feast for them), they collected it to use for their equivalent of angreal/san'angreal (I believe the Finns use something similar to the Standing Flows instead of having the ability to channel, but there are many clues they have some way different from humans to use the OP).

The Unreasoner
02-02-2013, 06:26 PM
I think if any of the Chosen had the necessary Talent, we would have known this from one of the others. They would all have be very wary of that Chosen would could make angreal.
It was an idle thought only.
But don't be so sure about none of the Forsaken being able. They may have simply not been willing to give up their power, however temporarily. It would be in character.

If that's so, it makes sense the process to make a san'angreal is different. Perhaps each CK was made using a very strong circle of 72, using as many powerful san'angreal as possible.

Maybe. I prefer multiple instances of power-banking, if only because it accounts for the time issues.
But... the process is probably more complicated than that. Rand seemed to imply the "seed" drinks up a large part of your ability for months. It could simply mean san'angreal are made by combining several seeds while angreal are made of just one. I think a Seed is a ter'angreal reproducing what the Eelfinn can do.

I don't like the 'multiple seed' idea. Not sure why.
My hunch is that this is exactly what the Eelfinn have done to Moiraine and Cyndane, by the way, meaning their loss of strength may not be permanent. They'll both recover, very slowly, over months. They didn't drink their ability merely to feast IMO (though it was also that, a feast for them), they collected it to use for their equivalent of angreal/san'angreal (I believe the Finns use something similar to the Standing Flows instead of having the ability to channel, but there are many clues they have some way different from humans to use the OP).

I have always wondered if humans were the only creatures capable of using the Power (not necessarily by channeling). I'm not sure about the Finn having a purpose beyond pleasure here, though.

Dom
02-02-2013, 08:22 PM
It was an idle thought only.


But don't be so sure about none of the Forsaken being able. They may have simply not been willing to give up their power, however temporarily. It would be in character.

Oh I'm sure none of them would have tried during the series. But I'm also sure given our wary of one another they are that one or the other would have revealed us in POV if one of them had the Talent to make angreal.

"Lanfear was the only one left with the Talent to make angreal, but it would have left her weakened for the months it took to make one. Still, she had kept a close watch for the signs of weakening, one did not survive long among the Chosen when she didn't pay attention to such things."

"Demandred was keeping himself away. Pity he would never link with her, she would very much have wanted to confirm her suspicions. He was the only one left with that peculiar Talent. Would he risk it?"

"They would all have given much for a strong angreal. Of course Mesaana had the Talent to make some, but that came at a price she would never pay. Not now, not with the Day of Return so close."


Maybe. I prefer multiple instances of power-banking, if only because it accounts for the time issues.

Oh it could well be that. It's quite possible there's only a percentage of one's strength that's safe to let a seed "drink up" at any given time.

But I don't think it's really how it works. I think it's more likely you need to use the Seed like you would an angreal for months and once you started the process you must go on through the point the Seed is filled up or correctly imprinted or charged. Meanwhile you're like linked to the Seed, and it absorb a percentage of your strength equal to the strength of the angreal it will become if the process succeeds.

I think they're the mirrors of angreal. They don't boost your strength, they absorb it. But it takes a long time for the "imprint" to reach its final phase, after which you can transform the Seed into an angreal. I guess it's not impossible what becomes the buffer is part of the Seed. That might explain the flaws in Callandor: to make the angreal/san'angreal you need volunteers to "fill up" the Seeds, but the Seeds may be mass produced ter'angreal and one of or the one used for Callandor was a flawed Seed. Possibly one of the "volunteers" who gave up his strength for it was a Chosen in disguise, one of the few with TP access. Just not one of the Thirteen.

I don't like the 'multiple seed' idea. Not sure why.

Well, I'm really just pitching ideas around with this, but if there's only one seed it would seem a circle would have to go on for a long time.. Well we know *that* is possible, even through sleep. That could explain why they were so rare. Again, maybe the making of the CK involved HUGE Seeds, and a full circle filling the two of them for a year or so.

I have always wondered if humans were the only creatures capable of using the Power (not necessarily by channeling). I'm not sure about the Finn having a purpose beyond pleasure here, though.

I don't want to highjack the thread with one more version of my old Finn theories, but I think the clues are there they have their own way to use the OP, which isn't channeling. What Mat did with his Ashan'darei, and what was done with the bronze knife, was the Finn's version of a Gateway. RJ also wanted us to notice they could tell exactly the strength of Moiraine's angreal.

I think their way is "ter'angreal based". I think their equivalent of channelers can feel which material or elements will interact together in some specific way if you draw specific patterns. To enter Ghenjei you made a specific symbol with bronze on the matter of which the ToG is made, and it makes a Gateway, the size of which changed depending on the size of the symbol drawn. I think they know which material must be used so a specific flow of the One Power can pass through it. They make simple to incredibly complex matrixes using specific materials, and voilą... the OP drawn into it forms a pattern, a "weave" without a channeler weaving it. Roughly that's part of my Finn theory that's remotely relevant to this thread.

The Unreasoner
02-02-2013, 10:20 PM
Oh I'm sure none of them would have tried during the series. But I'm also sure given our wary of one another they are that one or the other would have revealed us in POV if one of them had the Talent to make angreal.
It's a good point, but not conclusive. We know one of the Forsaken is a Dreamer, and that's never been really alluded to.
I don't want to highjack the thread with one more version of my old Finn theories, but I think the clues are there they have their own way to use the OP, which isn't channeling. What Mat did with his Ashan'darei, and what was done with the bronze knife, was the Finn's version of a Gateway. RJ also wanted us to notice they could tell exactly the strength of Moiraine's angreal.

I think their way is "ter'angreal based". I think their equivalent of channelers can feel which material or elements will interact together in some specific way if you draw specific patterns. To enter Ghenjei you made a specific symbol with bronze on the matter of which the ToG is made, and it makes a Gateway, the size of which changed depending on the size of the symbol drawn. I think they know which material must be used so a specific flow of the One Power can pass through it. They make simple to incredibly complex matrixes using specific materials, and voilą... the OP drawn into it forms a pattern, a "weave" without a channeler weaving it. Roughly that's part of my Finn theory that's remotely relevant to this thread.
Maybe the ancient Aes Sedai gave them Standing Flows, for their side of the bargain. And ter'angreal to use them.

Weird Harold
02-02-2013, 10:37 PM
Back to the OP's topic. What do you think is the difference between an Angreal and Sa'angreal? Is it just an arbitrary power level? Like if an Angreal is over lv 5 its classified as a SA? Or is it something else? Has anyone asked RJ about it?
I think the difference is in how angreal and sa'angreal are used.

When Rand is using the fat man angreal, he "reaches through" the angreal to seize Saidin. Later when using Callandor, he "channels through." In effect, an angreal is an "input amplifier" and a sa'angreal is an "output amplifier."

That would also partly explain why sa'angreal don't protect the user from burn-out; they don't affect channeling power until after the channeling power passes through the user.

MuKen
02-03-2013, 12:19 AM
Regarding the manufacturing process, I think we should keep in mind that sa'angreal are significantly rarer than angreal. I think that rules out something as simple as using circles. Seeing as the hardest part is finding a channeler with the Talent, then if it was about using a circle, you'd think that every one of these rare Talented individuals would be assigned a circle to produce sa'angreal instead of angreal.

It could be that everyone in the circle has to have the talent, but that seems unlikely since only the leader is doing anything that requires any skill, the others are just lending their power.

The repeated sessions theory would be more likely seeing as that ties up a lot of time the Talented ones could be using to make multiple angreal.

That also seems though like it would not explain the CK. I mean just how many sessions would it take someone to add up that much power? Even if you had multiple Talented people taking turns to add it up....the sense of scale we are shown for those seems to defy anything as simple as that.

I wonder if it's something like you have to do the same process as making an angreal, but overdraw hard and risk burning yourself out. That would explain the extreme rarity of sa'angreal.

Dom
02-03-2013, 12:23 AM
It's a good point, but not conclusive. We know one of the Forsaken is a Dreamer, and that's never been really alluded to.

Maybe the ancient Aes Sedai gave them Standing Flows, for their side of the bargain. And ter'angreal to use them.


I had rather in mind the other way around. But I'll try to write up the theory for TL at some point. I discussed it with Matt recently, but I mostly posted about that topic on Wotmania and maybe the 13th depository.

But roughly and briefly I think there was a post-nuclear Age when humans didn't know channeling and most "ran with animals" and the dominant culture and worldview was that of another world, the Aelfinn who could read the past, present and future and believed in the Creator as the Great Serpent, and the Eelfinn who knew the numbers of chaos and could make portals between worlds and "magical objects" of potent power. I think this was the Age in which Tamyrlin discovered how humans could also use the same "magic" as the Aelfinn and Eelfinn, and humans ultimately vanquished them, bound them to a treaty that kept them out of the human world. I think the "Dragon" legends that inspired the title given LTT in the AOL originated from the name given Tamyrlin, the foe of the Great Serpent... who was a rebirth of the Dragon soul.

Many clues are there, just disjointed. Brandon pretty much revealed that Mordeth got the knowledge to create Shadar Logoth from Sindhol. In AMOL we learned creating Shadar Logoth was possible because it was in the vicinity of a place where the barriers between worlds were weaker... that wasn't SG near Aridhol but Ghenjei. Brigitte when she had her full knowledge told Perrin the Finns were not the same evil as the Shadow, but so different from humans they could as well be called evil. I think angreal/san'angreal and ter'angreal were inspired by the previous Age's "magic".