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TankSpill
02-05-2013, 01:53 PM
Is there a place somewhere that lists when various prophecies/viewings/dreams are fulfilled? I looked at wot-encyclopedia, but didn't see it necessarily there. I'm looking for any viewings, prophecies, and dreams that were fulfilled during the last 3 books.

Dom
02-05-2013, 07:46 PM
Is there a place somewhere that lists when various prophecies/viewings/dreams are fulfilled? I looked at wot-encyclopedia, but didn't see it necessarily there. I'm looking for any viewings, prophecies, and dreams that were fulfilled during the last 3 books.


WOT encyclopedia has the whole list of prophecies.

Which one was or wasn't fulfilled is, for a lot of them anyway, a matter of theory.

Many believe the Dark Prophecy of TGH was only fulfilled in AMOL.

Some believe "Shall follow after" was Moridin and Callandor, but not quite everyone agrees.

Egwene's dream about a dark young man holding Callandor is more obviously about Moridin and not Narishma. RJ tricked us by giving us a rather mundane prophecy that a follower of Rand had to be the one retrieving Callandor for him, then created a red herring by making us believe Narishma would wield Callandor and thus was of some importance.

Brandon has confirmed a few. Rand as a beggar/in rags (Perrin's dream) was him with the Tinkers (that also fulfilled the Seanchan prophecy about the Dragon being blind, spriritually).


I'll list some and open the discussion:


Dreams (possibilities, and often metaphorical or symbolic):

She had dreamed of the Seanchan, too, of women in dresses with lightning bolts woven on their breasts, collaring a long line of women who wore Great Serpent rings, forcing them to call lightning against the White Tower.


A possibility that didn't happen.

(Rand) walking down into a great hole in a black mountain, a hole filled with a reddish glare as from vast fires below.

Shayol Ghul, symbolized (in reality, SH had absorbed the Pit of Doom, so no red glare)

Perrin - with a beard! - leading a huge pack of wolves that stretched as far as the eye could see.

Symbolic of Perrin as the Wolf King in the last Hunt, not something concretely fulfilled

Mat, placing his own left eye on a balance scale.

Ghenjei

Mat and Seanchan, too.

Take you pick as Egwene didn't describe it more.

Perrin stepping willingly over the edge of a towering cliff while saying, "It must be done. I must learn to fly before I reach the bottom."

That's more likely to refer to the last phases of Perrin's mastering of TAR than anything, perhaps to his various leaps of faith in AMOL even.

An Aiel, and she thought that had to do with Perrin, too.

Gaul. Whether this referred to his rescue by Perrin or later event and which one is open to interpretation. Gaul was meaningful to Perrin a few times before AMOL.

Mat dicing with the Dark One.

Perrin had a similar one around the same time and it was Ba'alzamon, so Egwene was probably mistaken him for the Dark One, thus more likely Mat in TDR than anything else.

Rand confronting her, and the women with her, and one of them was a Seanchan.

A possibility that didn't not come true concretely. Metaphorically it did as Rand confronted Egwene and Fortuona much the same way.

Rand building a wall with him on one side and her on the other, her and Elayne and others she could not make out. "It has to be done," he was saying as he piled up stones. "I'll not let you stop me now."

The matter of the seals.

Mat throwing dice with blood streaming down his face, the wide brim of his hat pulled low so she could not see his wound, while Thom Merrilin put his hand into a fire to draw out the small blue stone that now dangled on Moiraine's forehead.

Ghenjei

A storm, great dark clouds rolling without wind or rain while forked lightning bolts, every one identical, rent the earth.

The Storm (not a tempest).:p


Gawyn - Him kneeling while she cupped his head in her hands.

The Fateful Bonding.


Twice, right on top one another, she dreamed of taking him by the shoulders and trying to turn him to face the other way against his will. Once he brushed her hands away roughly; the other time, she was somehow stronger than he. The two blended together hazily.

The second time was in TOM, and the merging of old Gawyn and new obedient Gawyn was hazy indeed.

In another he began swinging a door closed on her, and she knew if that narrowing gap of light vanished, she was dead.

Gawyn's Fatal Idiocy, to keep it simple.

Him walking toward a burning mountain, something crunching beneath his boots. She stirred and whimpered; the crunching things were the seals on the Dark One's prison, shattering with his every step. She knew it. She did not need to see them to know.

The fulfillment started earlier, but it was another dream about the fact Rand had to break the seals.

Egwene dreams of approaching Elayne and Nynaeve; every time one of them said a word, they tripped and fell on their faces or dropped a cup or plate or knocked over a vase, always something that shattered on impact.

Well.. the last of those was Elayne's deal with the Kin.

She stands at fork in road. Gawyn rides up not seeing her. One road leads to violent death, the other, long life. Down one road they marry, the other, not. Gawyn smiles and chooses.

Violent death/Wedding, Long Life/No wedding. Egwene didn't listen.

She stands before an immense wall trying to tear it down. It's made of black and white disks. She can't tear it down.

Merrilor

A golden female hawk touches her and they are tied together.

Tied was the bond, thus Egeanin and the Golden Hawk just meant "a Seanchan". A red herring that a Tuon/Egwene real resolution could happen.

A man lies dying on a narrow bed. It's important that he not die, but funeral pyre is prepared.

The ending, if a bit garbled (and the description of WOT encyclopedia isn't verbatim).

A dark young man holds a brightly shining object in his hand.

Again, not verbatim. The original makes it more blatant Callandor is being used.

Could be just a symbol to represent Callandor, in which case it could be Narishma.

Rand, wearing different masks, until suddenly one of those false faces was no longer a mask, but him

Epiphany

Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended...She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps.

Opening Verin's letter and obeying her, or not opening it and leaving to rescue Moiraine as planned, that is the question.

Mat bowls on a village green. He knocks over pins again and again, only the pins are men and they are dead. Each pin represents thousands of men and an Illuminator was part of it.

Tarmon Gai'don/Merrilor

Egwene walks a ledge on a cliff. The ledge collapses leaving her hanging by her fingertips. A Seanchan woman climbs down the cliff and offers to help.

Egeanin

Thirteen black towers rose in the distance. The ground shakes and one by one they fall until six remain, one of the fallen growing back to the tallest of all.

The rise and fall of the Shadow's leaders (Forsaken)

A nest of fledgling eagles screech for their mother. One turns into a serpent and begins swallowing the others.

I'm drawing a blank on this one, probably will slap my forehead later. The only eagle we have is Manetheren and there's no obvious fit. Also, an irrelevant Andoran House.

Could be something beyond the main series/hook for the outriggers that won't come.

The dream sound like brothers/sisters, one turning out a villain and killing the others. Or from the same place/nation. Didn't happen, that I can see. Sounds like a Brandon red herring.

An enormous sphere made of the finest crystal on a dark hilltop. It sparkles in the light of twenty-three enormous stars. There are cracks in it and it is help together by ropes. Rand walks up with a woodsman axe and chops the ropes. The sphere breaks apart, falling to pieces and Rand shakes his head.

That represented the threat that Rand would fail at Merrilor (the 23 stars = the 23 groups there). Egwene foresaw it might happen if he insisted to break the seals right away. Moiraine prevented it.

Rand - "Melaine and Bair dreamed of you on a boat with three women whose faces they could not see, and a scale tilting first one way then the other

More or less confirmed Brandon decided it was metaphorical for the ending.

Bair and Amys dreamed of you cutting the wetlands in two with a sword.

More a possibility and metaphorical than anything, but it's Rand cutting the bridges with Tuon after Falme.

Mat fighting against himself, a dozen different men wearing his face, all dressed in different types of fine clothing, never seeing the shadowy figure behind him with a bloody knife.

Not realized yet, or else a very convulted Brandon-written dream about the Gray Men (but why the fine clothing? Why all wearing Mat's face?) or a very convoluted dream about Mat struggling about who he is/who's side he is on, while the Shadow is the real threat he initially "left to others".

Sheep running in a flock toward the woods chased by wolves. A terrible beast waits unseen. Something is wrong with the wolves.
Faile, Grady, Elyas, Gaul followed by thousands all walk toward a cliff.

The ending of Perrin's arc in Altara, the trap of the Shadow springing.

This is the passage from the book of Dark Prophecy that Moridin shows to Graendal.

"Lo, it shall come upon the world that the prison of the Greatest One
shall grow weak, like the limbs of those who crafted it. Once again, His
glorious cloak shall smother the Pattern of all things, and the Great
Lord shall stretch forth His hand to claim what is His. The rebellious
nations shall be laid barren, their children caused to weep. There shall
be none but Him, and those who have turned their eyes to His majesty.

In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning,8 and
the First Among Vermin9 lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who
will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come.
Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and
be consumed by the Midnight Towers.10 And his destruction shall bring
fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself.

And then shall the Lord of the Evening come. And He shall take our
eyes, for our souls shall bow before Him, and he shall take our skin, for
our flesh shall serve Him, and He shall take our lips, for only Him will
we praise. And the Lord of the Evening shall face the Broken Champion,11
and shall spill his blood and bring us the Darkness so beautiful. Let the
screams begin, O followers of the Shadow. Beg for your destruction!

Brandon confirmed it's all fulfilled. He confirmed the Broken Wolf was Perrin's "Spirit Guide" (most likely meaning Hopper", and that the sentence about "His destruction shall..." isn't related to the Broken Wolf verse (whoever wrote that foretelling down made a mistake).

The TGH prophecy as it relates to the ending of AMOL was discussed in another thread.

But this:

Daughter of the Night,1 she walks again.

The return of Lanfear.

The ancient war, she yet fights.

And a confirmation she still served the Shadow.


Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still.

Believed to mean Slayer and Perrin, Slayer being her new lover who dies, and Perrin her new lover who serve still.

But controversial :)

Who shall stand against her coming?

Perrin

The man who channels2 stands alone.
He gives his friends for sacrifice.
Two roads before him, one to death beyond dying, one to life eternal.
Which will he choose? Which will he choose?
What hand shelters? What hand slays?

Rand's confrontation with Shai'tan.

Etc.

"When the Trollocs come out of the Blight again, we will leave the Three-fold Land and take back our places of old."

Referring to their role as peacekeapers/holders.

Under this sign (the ancient Aes Sedai symbol) he will conquer."

Can apply both to Rand's earthly conquest and the apparition of that sign in the skies as he was defeating the Shadow in AMOL.

It says we will be changed, and find again what was ours, and was lost."

Their role as agents of peace, but in a different way than in the AOL as da'shain.

He will take you back, and he will destroy you."

They're culture of warrior clans fighting one another, that is.

"He shall spill out the blood of those who call themselves Aiel as water on sand, and he shall break them as dried twigs, yet the remnant of a remnant shall he save, and they shall live."


In part metaphorical, in part concretely realized during AMOL (and in part before).

the Royal line of Andor would be the key to defeating the Dark One in the Last Battle."/QUOTE]

Obviously Rand, as Mantear still ruled at the time.

But a case can be made to include Elayne's role as Commander into it, and even Gawyn who's death a dream told us meant Egwene's, and Egwene's death and her intervention beyond the grave to make him accept the losses and the fact it was everyone's choice to make the same sacrifice of their life as he was pivotal in Rand's final choice.

[QUOTE] "The White Tower will be whole again, except for remnants cast out and scorned, whole and stronger than ever. Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger. The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds. This I Foretell."

Duh.

Gitara had a Foretelling that Tarmon Gai'don will come during the lifetimes of sisters now breathing.

Re-duh.

"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."

Re-re-duh.

Some believe that "the future teeters on the edge of a blade" is very misleading, referring to Rand's uncertain future (to die or take Moridin's body), not the world's. Others have suggested it refers to him calling himself a "sell-sword" and Laman's Sword.

Others think it's metaphorical and means the upcoming war with Shara.

"I see him before you. Him, the one who lives many lives, the one who gives deaths, the one who raises mountains. He will break what he must break, but first he stands here, before our king. You will bloody him! Measure his restraint. He speaks! How was the fallen slain? Tellindal Tirraso, murdered by his hand, the darkness that came the day after the light. You must ask, and you must know your fate. If he cannot answer then you will be lost. You will bring his end swiftly, so that the final days may have their storm. So that Light may not be consumed by he who was to have preserved it. I seem. And I weep."

Meeting with Bordermen.

"For he shall come like the breaking dawn, and shatter the world again with his coming, and make it anew."

The last bit at least refers to the SG confrontation, and the wording is a big clue that the "Wyld" prophecies of Shara most likely refer to Rand and not to Demandred at all.

"When the winds of Tarmon Gai'don scour the earth, he will face the Shadow and bring forth Light again in the world."

"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.
Once for mourning, once for birth.
Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.
In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow."

"The blood of the Dragon Reborn on the rocks of Shayol Ghul will free mankind from the Shadow."

He "shall bind the nine moons to serve him."

"His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul, washing away the Shadow, sacrifice for man's salvation."

"With his coming are the dread fires born again. The hills burn, and the land turns sere. The tides of men run out, and the hours dwindle. The wall is pierced, and the veil of parting raised. Storms rumble beyond the horizon, and the fires of heaven purge the earth. There is no salvation without destruction, no hope this side of death."




One big Duh.

"The Dragon Reborn must kneel before the Crystal Throne before Tarmon Gai'don,

That one may or not have been a corrupted prophecy. Brandon said some of the Seanchan ones have been tampered with. The Pattern didn't allow that to stand in the way and Rand kneeling in the garden and the omen of peach blossoms was enough to satisfy Fortuona and get in her head the Dragon had knelt to the CT and served it.

"And it shall come to pass, in the days when the Dark Hunt rides, when the right hand falters and the left hand strays, that mankind shall come to the Crossroads of Twilight and all that is, all that was, and all that will be shall balance on the point of a sword, while the winds of the Shadow grow."

This could actually refer to LB events, with Perrin as the hand that falters (when he's forced out of TAR) and Mat as the Hand that strays (his flight to Ebou Dar), the Crossroads of Twilight being Merrilor. The rest to Rand's confrontation at SG.


"He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the three shall be one."

Duh.

"At the end of time,
when the many become one.
The last storm shall gather its angry winds
to destroy a land already dying.
And at its center,
the blind man shall stand
upon his own grave.
There he shall see again,
and weep for what has been wrought."

Essanik version of the epiphany.

"And light shall fail, and dawn shall not come, and still the captive rails. His blood shall give us the Light. (added note: Wait upon the Light.)"

The cue to break the seals.

Egwene's columns of light refered to the stuff surrounding her death and her counter for balefire.


Viewing:

Lan - Seven ruined towers around his head, and a babe in a cradle holding a sword.

Still controversial as far as details go, but it indicated Malkier was still very much in Lan's future.

Perrin: trees flowering all around him.

Controversial. Some believe the Tinkers, or the Ogier, others think it refers to the apple trees of his family's graves.

Elayne: A severed hand, not hers.

Her compact/hiring of the Band of the Red Hand, and them passing under her command after Mat fled.

Galad - He will always do what is right, no matter who it hurts. Galad - He will hurt someone to serve a greater good and not even notice.

As it turns out, it meant himself.

"above Elayne's, a red-hot iron and an axe." It means trouble but it seems distant, somewhere in the future.

The day after she gave birth, Elayne asked Perrin for advice about blacksmithing, to make some iron ter'angreal. He answered "You blacksmithing? LOL, axe that!". So Elayne went to shape her ter'angreal using an axe, and became a famous Gleeman's Tale: "The Queen who had a foot set in two nations, cut one off and lost them both". It was mostly popular in Cairhien.

Logain - a flaring halo around his head, radiant in gold and blue. It shouted of glory and power to come.

He became very famous for his skills at baby-kissing and making them sleep. Rapidly ousted (via a Gateway) from his position at the BT by a falsely unassuming bastard named Androl, Logain became very rich after he opened The Little Black Tower Kindergarten in New-and-Improved Caemlyn and turned.

Sheriam - Rays of silver and blue flashed about her fiery hair, and a soft golden light; Min could not say what it meant.

The sky as she was beheaded.

Enaila - A wreath of some sort; Min had no idea what it meant.

Wedding by Aiel custom. Not yet realized.

"When you two were together, I saw those fireflies and the darkness stronger than ever...But with the two of you in the same room, the fireflies were holding their own instead of being eaten faster than they can swarm, the way they do when you're alone. And there's something else I saw when you two were together. Twice he's going to have to be there, or you... If he's not, something bad will happen to you. Very bad. It will happen if he is not there, but nothing I saw said it won't because he is. It will be very bad, Rand."

Dumai's Wells, and killing Lanfear/protecting SG with a dreamspike, sending the wolves and Gaul to guard it, Slayer.

Aracome and Maraconn and Gueyam were all going to die, too, bloody deaths, in battle, Min thought.

A red herring to make Rand's attack in TPOD sounds very ominous, seemingly.

Aracome did die for real, the other two we don't know. But we never saw them again, so maybe they did die then.

Otherwise off-screen in TG seems likely.

Berelain - "Just a man in white who will make her fall head over heels."

Duh

Rand - "I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and....one of you dies, and one doesn't.

Likely the Viewing that made it clear to Min and the other two what had happened to Rand at the end.

Harine - "You will be punished for what happens here today, Harine, but not so much as you fear, I think. At least, one day you will be the Mistress of the Ships."

The last part has not yet happened.

Rand - What good to tell him he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone?

Referred to Moiraine's role which was to prevent Egwene and Rand going separate ways after Merrilor. In other words, avoiding a replay of the Fateful Concord as the Fateful Discord.

Darlin: she knew that they would marry—after Caraline had led him a merry chase.

As far as we know, the merry chase is still ongoing and will be ongoing forever.

Daved Hanlon - bruised hues so dark they seemed nearly black. His hands would be red with more rapes and murders before he died.

Suggests perhaps Brandon held back with the scene with Elayne.

Rand - "It's Cadsuane. She is going to teach you something, you and the Asha'man. All the Asha'man, I mean. It's something you have to learn, but I don't know what it is, except that none of you will like learning it from her. You aren't going to like it at all."

The first part was in TGS and leading to the epiphany, the second part was Rand passing the lesson on, apparently. It wasn't too satisfyingly realized and it's possible part 2 will come in the second Age now that Cadsuane is Amyrlin.

Nesune - She will found a library and receive honors and fame.

Much undeserved honors, as she simply stole Elayne's ter'angreal and she opened a library to display the content passsing it as her own research on the AOL.

Upon seing the insane profits, Elayne One-Foot wished she had had the idea first. Her plans to increase Andor's wealth ended after she burned out half the Kin she forced to volunteer to test her first "angreal" (her whole line of creations were coined "the doom'greal" by TV the next generation) Then she tried it herself. Sumeko caustically suggested she go open an inn somewhere. Unexpectedly her second inn named the Fat One-Foot Queen in Saliesin made Elayne's wealth and her jellied green peas with ham espuma made her fame. In Saliesin, anyway.

Com and Doni, Tairen Boys. Min views something tragic about them

Survived the LB and several hardships, until one day on vacatiopns to Dragon-Land they became the food-testers for Elayne's first attempt at the jellied grean-peas (which by then she called "Egwene's jewels and their splash of boar-ham goo"), when she still thought that bottle of saltpeter in Aludra's room was a no doubt interesting Tanchican exotic seasoning.

An inn in the Two Rivers with the mark of the Dragon's Fang inlaid on the door, a sign of victory and hope, not darkness or hate.


That was the first incarnation of the Fat One-Foot Queen Inn in Dragon-Land. Victory and hope came to the whole area after Elayne announced she was selling and moving to Saliesin. Caemlyn celebrated for a whole season when the news reached it.

Min never has viewings of Ogier, only of humans.

That was proven wrong after she announced that as fact and Fortuona jacked her on a 10-foot high throne. "See them now?" - "Ah, yes. Yours look all funny now for above though".

SauceyBlueConfetti
02-05-2013, 08:05 PM
I'll list some and open

Your definition of "some" seems a bit...different....than mine. :rolleyes::D:D:):p


After skimming I realized this one will take some time

Kimon
02-05-2013, 08:08 PM
The two most problematic, at least of Min's viewings, still seem to be of Carlinya and Colinda. Colinda's just in that we never seem to get any hint as to what it was supposed to be about - so apparently just a red herring. Carlinya's is more disconcerting, since nothing seems to have happened to her prior to her death that could have had anything to do with her raven tattoo viewing.

Dom
02-05-2013, 08:16 PM
The two most problematic, at least of Min's viewings, still seem to be of Carlinya and Colinda. Colinda's just in that we never seem to get any hint as to what it was supposed to be about - so apparently just a red herring. Carlinya's is more disconcerting, since nothing seems to have happened to her prior to her death that could have had anything to do with her raven tattoo viewing.

Brandon dismissed Carlinya's as something mundane and not what we thought, and that RJ meant some Viewings to have been mundane.

A lot believe it's true some Viewings were red herrings/mundane but that in this case Brandon covers they missed Carlinya was supposed to be captured in the WT raid (perhaps RJ meant for Siuan to ask the AS sworn to Egwene to come with her for her rescue operation).

Dom
02-05-2013, 08:17 PM
Your definition of "some" seems a bit...different....than mine. :rolleyes::D:D:):p

I skipped a whole lot! :p

I didn't realize starting this that so many got fulfilled only in TGS/TOM/AMOL, but a I got a lot but not quite all the ones listed before I got bored, which started to show with the sillier "4th Age" stuff in the last part.

Kimon
02-05-2013, 08:25 PM
Brandon dismissed Carlinya's as something mundane and not what we thought, and that RJ meant some Viewings to have been mundane.

A lot believe it's true some Viewings were red herrings/mundane but that in this case Brandon covers they missed Carlinya was supposed to be captured in the WT raid (perhaps RJ meant for Siuan to ask the AS sworn to Egwene to come with her for her rescue operation).

Some of them were mundane, but with the exception of those two (and Sarene's perhaps) all of Min's can be easily recognized as fulfilled. Hard to ignore the possibility that RJ just hadn't left notes on those two, and BS either forgot about them (near certainty in the case of Carlinya), or just couldn't think of anything (Colinda).

Dom
02-05-2013, 09:06 PM
Some of them were mundane, but with the exception of those two (and Sarene's perhaps) all of Min's can be easily recognized as fulfilled. Hard to ignore the possibility that RJ just hadn't left notes on those two, and BS either forgot about them (near certainty in the case of Carlinya), or just couldn't think of anything (Colinda).

Brandon did say RJ had notes on his "not to reveal" list that some of Min's viewings in particular must not be fulfilled in the series.

Sarene's "tempestuous love affair" is another one. Others are obvious like Darlin's death in his bed when old, and Caraline surviving him.

There's Elayne's axe in "a distant future". Enaila.

Most can be puzzled out, like Enaila's, and Nesune's is in a way a sign Rand's demand that schools be opened everywhere will become true, and perhaps it's how the AS will replace their lost central political role... the Greys working with the Aiel for the "Covenant", The Yellows opening hospitals, the Browns joining the new Academies as teachers and librarians etc.

He put some, probably not as many as some would like that gave clues into the 4th Age, but then the few unfulfilled ones pissed off part of the readers, so it's probably a good thing he showed restraint with the red herrings/fourth Age only stuff.

Marie Curie 7
02-05-2013, 09:08 PM
Some of them were mundane, but with the exception of those two (and Sarene's perhaps) all of Min's can be easily recognized as fulfilled. Hard to ignore the possibility that RJ just hadn't left notes on those two, and BS either forgot about them (near certainty in the case of Carlinya), or just couldn't think of anything (Colinda).

We do know that Sarene wrote rather suggestive poetry about her Warder:

Lord of Chaos
Chapter: 25 Like Lightning and Rain

When Sarene entered the sitting room, only Coiren and Erian were there sipping at tea. And a servant waiting to pour, of course. Sarene motioned him out. "Berelain, she may prove to be difficult," she said once the door closed. "I do not know whether the apple or the whip will work best with her. I am supposed to see Aracome tomorrow, am I not, but I think that more time will be necessary with Berelain."

"Apple or whip," Erian said in a tight voice. "Whichever do be necessary." Her face might have been pale marble framed by raven's wings. Sarene's secret vice was poetry, though she would never have let anyone know she could be interested in something so... emotional. She would have died of shame had Vitalien, her Warder, ever discovered that she had written lines comparing him to a leopard, among other graceful, powerful and dangerous animals.

So while we don't know for sure if this is related to Min's viewing, it gives a hint that the tempestuous love affair that Min saw for Sarene was probably meant to be with her Warder.

As far as being able to easily recognize that Min's other viewings were fulfilled, then what was the meaning of the viewing of Elayne and a red-hot iron? Or an axe? We can come up with some speculation, but I don't believe either of those is clear.

Dom
02-05-2013, 09:22 PM
We do know that Sarene wrote rather suggestive poetry about her Warder:



So while we don't know for sure if this is related to Min's viewing, it gives a hint that the tempestuous love affair that Min saw for Sarene was probably meant to be with her Warder.

As far as being able to easily recognize that Min's other viewings were fulfilled, then what was the meaning of the viewing of Elayne and a red-hot iron? Or an axe? We can come up with some speculation, but I don't believe either of those is clear.

I think those two (or this one? It was never too clear) were probably intentional red herrings.

However... in TOM (IRRC) Min recognized an axe (a silver axe) as sign one would be a leader in the LB. Maybe he got that from RJ's explanation of Elayne's axe and fulfilled it indirectly like that.

rand
02-05-2013, 10:10 PM
The axe could be Elayne's issues with Perrin. And the red hot iron could just be a dirty joke lol (iirc Min describes Rand as a furnace when he's with Elayne).

Kimon
02-05-2013, 11:00 PM
We do know that Sarene wrote rather suggestive poetry about her Warder:



So while we don't know for sure if this is related to Min's viewing, it gives a hint that the tempestuous love affair that Min saw for Sarene was probably meant to be with her Warder.

As far as being able to easily recognize that Min's other viewings were fulfilled, then what was the meaning of the viewing of Elayne and a red-hot iron? Or an axe? We can come up with some speculation, but I don't believe either of those is clear.

Vitalien does seem the most likely candidate for the tempestuous affair, and that seems to have been hinted at enough for why I only included her viewing as a perhaps. As for those two cryptic viewings about Elayne, yeah, those must be added to the list of uncertainties. Especially the axe. At least with the red hot iron there are possibilities.

Dom
02-05-2013, 11:07 PM
The axe could be Elayne's issues with Perrin. And the red hot iron could just be a dirty joke lol (iirc Min describes Rand as a furnace when he's with Elayne).

Well... Elayne did have a red rod which was a kinky ter'angreal and it grew hot and was activated by Fire, so there may well be more worth than you think to the hypothesis that the red hot iron Viewing was in fact a dirty joke...

The axe for Perrin doesn't really work, though. A hammer or wolf would be different but the axe goes too far back, and the axe motif did not concern Elayne at all (like an eagle might have to represent the "rise of Manetheren" issue, for instance) but character development for Perrin, personal stuff that concerned only him.

Dom
02-05-2013, 11:18 PM
Vitalien does seem the most likely candidate for the tempestuous affair, and that seems to have been hinted at enough for why I only included her viewing as a perhaps.

Continuity was probably broken for this. It's likely RJ was going there, or intended to leave it open and we were to understand it would be her warder - who perhaps wouldn't return the sentiments, or it would cause a scandal among the Whites etc. But there was no sign this had already become an affair, let alone tempestuous.

Brandon had Sarene fall victim to Graendal's heaviest sort of compulsion, the sort she used on Cyndane and Moghedien and that she said then would destroy brains rapidly. It's very unlikely Nynaeve will ever find a way to remove that level of Compulsion.

Sarene was last seen fallen to her knees as Graendal's circle broke, her eyes vacant. She's possibly burned out.

Brandon seems to have played at "who's really beautiful I could turn into pets" and Sarene's name came up.

Vitalien was with Sarene, and he was not shown as a pet of Graendal and he didn't raise the alarm about Sarene, so most likely Graendal killed him when she captured Sarene.

Marie Curie 7
02-05-2013, 11:34 PM
There's Elayne's axe in "a distant future". Enaila.

Most can be puzzled out, like Enaila's, and Nesune's is in a way a sign Rand's demand that schools be opened everywhere will become true, and perhaps it's how the AS will replace their lost central political role.

Enaila was killed during the Last Battle. Min's viewing of a wreath for her was fulfilled prior to her death:

AMoL
Ch. 37 The Last Battle

Enaila, who had decided to forsake Far Dareis Mai and had laid a bridal wreath at the foot of the siswai'aman Leiran, speared through the gut by four Trollocs. Rand wept for her.


I think those two (or this one? It was never too clear) were probably intentional red herrings.

However... in TOM (IRRC) Min recognized an axe (a silver axe) as sign one would be a leader in the LB. Maybe he got that from RJ's explanation of Elayne's axe and fulfilled it indirectly like that.

That was in Bandar Eban, and the viewing was of a beggar, so I'm not sure what that would have to do with Elayne.

sleepinghour
02-06-2013, 07:23 AM
Lan - Seven ruined towers around his head, and a babe in a cradle holding a sword.
Still controversial as far as details go, but it indicated Malkier was still very much in Lan's future.

I think the viewing of a baby with a sword simply refers to the oath sworn in Lan's name when he was a child: "To stand against the Shadow so long as iron is hard and stone abides. To defend the Malkieri while one drop of blood remains. To avenge what cannot be defended." The oath is that of the King of Malkier, but Lan has never claimed that title before ToM. Some of it was also fulfilled literally—AMoL begins with Bayrd noticing that their iron tent spikes had gone soft. Iron is no longer hard, like in Lan's oath. So Min's viewing was about a future event even though it showed a scene from Lan's past.

The seven ruined towers probably refer to Lan and Nynaeve rebuilding Malkier. At the Salt Lake signing, Brandon said RJ's notes contained "a small amount of information about the future of Malkier," which suggests it'll be rebuilt.

Daved Hanlon - bruised hues so dark they seemed nearly black. His hands would be red with more rapes and murders before he died.
Suggests perhaps Brandon held back with the scene with Elayne.

I don't think RJ would have let Hanlon rape Elayne either. Also, Min's viewing of Hanlon was in ACoS, and we know he's raped other women since. Falion, for one.

At her nod, Murellin stepped aside and motioned Daved Hanlon to enter, closing the door behind him. Hanlon was swathed in a dark cloak, but he snaked out one hand to cup Falion's bottom through her dress. She glared at him bitterly, but did not move away. Hanlon was part of her punishment.

Brandon had Sarene fall victim to Graendal's heaviest sort of compulsion, the sort she used on Cyndane and Moghedien and that she said then would destroy brains rapidly.

Some have suggested that Sarene's tempestuous love affair referred to Graendal.

[Nynaeve] was obviously terrified for Lan. Min understood. She felt similarly about Rand. And . . . what was that vision that was suddenly hovering above Nynaeve's head? She was kneeling over someone's corpse in a posture of grief. The viewing was gone a moment later.

A red herring many of us fell for. :p Some thought this would be Lan, and my pre-AMoL theory was that it referred to Nynaeve surrecting Rand. The corpse is almost certainly Rand, but it's definitely one of Min's more mundane viewings since Nynaeve's grief over Rand has already turned into suspicion and didn't really lead to anything major.

David Selig
02-06-2013, 08:28 AM
Jaq Lounalt the torturer caused a lot of trouble for Elayne, and hot irons are commonly associated with torturers in WoT.

TankSpill
02-06-2013, 09:04 AM
That's a lot more detailed response than I was expecting, thanks!

Weiramon
02-06-2013, 12:06 PM
Carlinya's is more disconcerting, since nothing seems to have happened to her prior to her death that could have had anything to do with her raven tattoo viewing.

Burn my soul, it would not be a surprise to hear some claim that a raven represents death - and the strange nature of a tattoo, the world of dreams. Ridiculous, as though one could perish in a dream!

Next they will say a black knife cicling one's head is also a harbinger of death.

Dom
02-06-2013, 01:05 PM
That was in Bandar Eban, and the viewing was of a beggar, so I'm not sure what that would have to do with Elayne.

Just that it's almost the same symbol.

I don't think it's that either. I think it's a red herring (post-series event).

Dom
02-06-2013, 01:06 PM
Jaq Lounalt the torturer caused a lot of trouble for Elayne, and hot irons are commonly associated with torturers in WoT.

I doesn't work so well as Lounalt was associated with ropes.

The Unreasoner
02-06-2013, 03:13 PM
Rand building a wall with him on one side and her on the other, her and Elayne and others she could not make out. "It has to be done," he was saying as he piled up stones. "I'll not let you stop me now."
The matter of the seals.

I'm not so sure. I think it was concerning Rand distancing himself from others, building emotional walls between him and his loved ones. Avoiding Elayne, sending Aviendha away. Of course, the walls were breached later (A Bath in ACoS made a chip or two, and of course WH).

Demon
02-06-2013, 03:23 PM
I'm not so sure. I think it was concerning Rand distancing himself from others, building emotional walls between him and his loved ones. Avoiding Elayne, sending Aviendha away. Of course, the walls were breached later (A Bath in ACoS made a chip or two, and of course WH).

This sounds better than it being about the seals.

Dom
02-07-2013, 03:27 PM
I'm not so sure. I think it was concerning Rand distancing himself from others, building emotional walls between him and his loved ones. Avoiding Elayne, sending Aviendha away. Of course, the walls were breached later (A Bath in ACoS made a chip or two, and of course WH).

It might have been about letting Rand build a metaphorical wall between himself and the WT.

Egwene wanted to reach out and bring Rand under WT guidance at the time. The dream might have been telling her "don't do that, let him do what must be done".

I think it's not a direct reference to the emotional wall, it just includes this (the emotional wall is more an effect, or one of the means) - and it leads to the seals and the wall between Egwene/Elayne and Rand by the time of Merrilor (and others, but the others were not relevant to Egwene's interpretation, if they were she would have seen them clearly). Rand had fortified himself against the WT, and by more than his emotional wall. That part shattered with the epiphany, not the wall he had built between him and the AS.

The fact Nynaeve, Min (or Moiraine), who sided with Rand on the matter of the seals at Merrilor, were not included in the dream is fairly telling. Nor Perrin.

The emotional wall would more likely have shown Nynaeve, Min, "Cadsuane" (as a statuesque AS she did not recognize), Tam, Perrin etc. - all people Rand shut himself off from, in the dream. It never concerned Egwene much, and Elayne never suffered from it like Min or Nyaneve did.

Grey Ajah
02-10-2013, 03:51 PM
Here are three viewings that were believed to be fulfilled already prior to AMoL but they all may refer to events in AMoL:

Gawyn TSR chap. 1

"streaks of dried blood had made his face a grim mask. He was going to be wounded on the day the Aes Sedai died. He was going to be hurt more than the blood told, hurt somehow deeper than wounds to his flesh...that bloody mask again.

This viewing has been read as fulfilled in the Youngling coup but post AMoL it must refer to his death in the duel with Demandred wearing the three rings.

Egwene TGH chap. 34

"A white flame and other things."

Although it could certainly refer to Amyrlin Seat it could be read as her Flame of Tar Valon spell too. "Other things" is perhaps a subtle way to indicate that her future is not as evident as for many of the other main characters. Min was probably not aware that she would die but the other Egwene/Gawyn viewing discussed on the first page of this thread indicates that possibility too.

Galad TGH chap. 38

"He will hurt someone to serve a greater good and not even notice."

This would fit with wounding Demandred as he, and Gawyn, both distracts Demandred and makes him believe Rand is in charge while Mat and Elayne gets more time to make their moves. Galad probably believe he fails as he loses the swordfight while not seeing the bigger picture.

ps. sorry for way I quote the quotations - I am newbie here ;)

Neilbert
02-10-2013, 05:11 PM
I'm really bored at work so here's a nifty primer I found.

BBCode (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBCode)

Here's a screwed up example so you can see behind the scenes

{quote=AMOL Chapter 12}Blah blah blah{/quote}
Becomes
Blah blah blah

Just replace {} with [], though what you did is fine too.

SauceyBlueConfetti
02-10-2013, 05:24 PM
There is a quote icon in the editing tools of the message box when you type a response. Same line that the bold/italic etc tool shortcut is on. It looks like a conversation quote bubble, like in a comic strip

Jalyn
02-10-2013, 06:45 PM
The Gawyn viewing is almost certainly fulfilled with the Tower insurrection. By context the "day the sisters die" is the viewing Min sees of the overthrow, as those are the visions that she's just been considering. In addition, we know that the "hurt more than blood told" was about the psychological pain of his conflicting vows and the knowledge that Egwene & Elayne would disapprove of the choices that he was making, while he felt that he was making them for them. It certainly could be a bit of foreshadowing, but Min's vision was about that fighting.

The white flame could probably mean either, though I disagree that Egwene was less tied to the pattern than others (other than the t'avern.)

Was the Galad one a viewing?