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EvilChani
02-14-2013, 04:14 PM
[QUOTE=Dom;212430
We don't even know how much damage balefire really does either, and if it could really reach the point of unravelling the Pattern or not (it's all purely theorical - it damages reality but how much they don't really know). The real purpose of Egwene's sacrifice was to make her, specifically, die so she could intervene at the critical moment with Rand from "beyond". She was more sacrificial lamb than savior, even though she made her sacrifice motivated by salvation.

But it really was up to Rand.[/QUOTE]

You think she really spoke to him from the 'beyond'? I interpreted it that it was just him imagining what she would say after he watched her die. How would she even be able to speak to him after she's dead?

As for the balefire, I remember seeing a quote from Brandon stating that the damage Egwene's weave 'healed' would've been healed anyway once the DO was locked away (or rather, that the Pattern would've repaired itself once he was locked away).

Demon
02-14-2013, 05:58 PM
You think she really spoke to him from the 'beyond'? I interpreted it that it was just him imagining what she would say after he watched her die. How would she even be able to speak to him after she's dead?

As for the balefire, I remember seeing a quote from Brandon stating that the damage Egwene's weave 'healed' would've been healed anyway once the DO was locked away (or rather, that the Pattern would've repaired itself once he was locked away).

After reading this series, you shouldnt think that to be such a weird thing.

EvilChani
02-14-2013, 06:31 PM
After reading this series, you shouldnt think that to be such a weird thing.

Well, his soul is not tied to hers as it was to Moridin/Ishamael, she isn't some reincarnation of him as he was of LTT, she isn't a Hero of the Horn who was sitting around in TAR ready to chat with him if he wanted, and she wasn't a ghost. Had it been Elayne, rather than Egwene, then I could buy that maybe the bond gave her the ability to project thoughts from the 'beyond' into his head, but they weren't bonded and barely tolerated each other for most of the series.

The whole "No! Not Egwene!" thing felt a little off to me, given their inability to get along, but I guess it made some sense since he showed he still cared for her by giving her a gift before he went to SG (and he was only doing that for people he truly cared for, even if she was a giant douchebag about it and clearly didn't return the affection). Still, having some lingering affection for someone doesn't explain hearing her voice in his head after her death...they simply didn't have that strong of a relationship, which is why I figured it was more of a Rand invention, him imagining what Egwene would say to him in that instance were she actually nice rather than flat out hateful toward him. :cool:

fionwe1987
02-14-2013, 07:15 PM
even if she was a giant douchebag about it and clearly didn't return the affection

Light, but he’d been difficult to deal with lately— but she’d thought the same thing about her parents on occasion.

“I support you. It doesn’t mean I’m going to do as you say with the seals, but I do support you.”

Egwene released Rand. She would not be teary-eyed. Even if it did seem like a last parting for them.

:confused:

EvilChani
02-14-2013, 07:56 PM
:confused:

Saying you support someone, then going out of your way to turn the entire world against said person and insisting that that person obeys what you think is right while dismissing anything that person has to say, is not support. POV trap...again. People can say a lot of crap, and even believe it's true, but actions speak a hell of a lot louder than words, fionwe...and the majority of her actions (and even thoughts) where Rand is concerned contradict her claim unless she was adding an unspoken "as long as you do what I want" to the end of "I support you".

I did forget about the teary-eyed part, so I guess it shows she can feel something other than superiority toward Rand. Had she not even been capable of that much, though - with her believing he was going to die so she could live for a thousand years as queen of the world as she indicated to Tuon - she would be an even worse excuse for a human being than I already consider her to be.

Edited to add:

It's even funnier that Egwene declares that she "supports" Rand but won't do anything he wants when she was convinced that her "friends" and "love of her life after Galad was out of reach", who supported her, were incapable of "supporting" her unless they obeyed her ever demand without question. Yet more hypocrisy from her...

fionwe1987
02-14-2013, 08:33 PM
Saying you support someone, then going out of your way to turn the entire world against said person and insisting that that person obeys what you think is right while dismissing anything that person has to say, is not support.
Except it is, when that is the only way for you to save the world. Rand's plan as of Merrilor to immediately break the Seals and kill the Dark One was the wrong one. By putting up roadblocks against that plan, Egwene did support Rand, because it forced him to examine his ideas, and eventually led him to the right plan. The Dark One was released at the exact right moment, and Rand was ready to do what he had to do, reforge the DO's prison, instead of attempt a madcap plan to kill him. It is no different from when Nynaeve stopped Rand from killing all the Borderlanders, except it was larger in scale.

POV trap...again. People can say a lot of crap, and even believe it's true, but actions speak a hell of a lot louder than words, fionwe...and the majority of her actions (and even thoughts) where Rand is concerned contradict her claim unless she was adding an unspoken "as long as you do what I want" to the end of "I support you".
You seem to be under some strange impression that supporting someone implies obeying them. Friends stop friends from doing idiotic things. They don't ignore their principles and beliefs and pander to the whims of their friends.

It's even funnier that Egwene declares that she "supports" Rand but won't do anything he wants when she was convinced that her "friends" and "love of her life after Galad was out of reach", who supported her, were incapable of "supporting" her unless they obeyed her ever demand without question. Yet more hypocrisy from her...
:rolleyes:

Rand al'Fain
02-15-2013, 03:34 AM
Except it is, when that is the only way for you to save the world. Rand's plan as of Merrilor to immediately break the Seals and kill the Dark One was the wrong one. By putting up roadblocks against that plan, Egwene did support Rand, because it forced him to examine his ideas, and eventually led him to the right plan. The Dark One was released at the exact right moment, and Rand was ready to do what he had to do, reforge the DO's prison, instead of attempt a madcap plan to kill him. It is no different from when Nynaeve stopped Rand from killing all the Borderlanders, except it was larger in scale.
The only thing Eggy had was a couple of mentions in a little known part of the library that had some semblance of caution. Plus, Rand was going to go ahead and break the seals anyways, until Moiraine showed up. And Eggy wanted to remake the already weakening seals, to maybe put off Tarmon Gaidon for a few centuries. A plan that was also doomed to fail. Can't forget that.


You seem to be under some strange impression that supporting someone implies obeying them. Friends stop friends from doing idiotic things. They don't ignore their principles and beliefs and pander to the whims of their friends.Stopping them from doing stupid things, yes. But friends also tend to encourage it too.

Anyways, Eggy had a bad habit of blaming Rand for things that were not his fault. Or taking ripping into him for no real reason. Actually, she had a bad habit of that throughout the series. Pick out a book, find one of her POVs or someone else's POV that has her in it, point to a random part in it, and chances are she is berating someone or accusing someone, or just being plain foolish because she's Egwene.

How people can see her as an epitome of a strong woman when she's more of a bully like Elaida, is beyond me. That said, I did not want her to die, but did her death suit her? Well, she wanted adventure and power, and death usually comes to those people. Just that she had some of Elayne's stupid luck and was not blown to bits half a dozen times throughout the series. But instead, she burned her self out, turned into a crystal thing, and kicked the bucket.

Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon
02-15-2013, 12:00 PM
Of all the people in all the worlds, Egwene was the one who needed to die for Rand to realize what he needed to do. I agree that many things can happen in WoT, but I also agree that there are rules to all of these things. Regardless of whether Egwene (who did have a particularly special connection to TAR) spoke to Rand from beyond the grave, or whether it was just Rand's mind finally accepting the true nature of his relationship with Egwene - that was Rand's moment of final epiphany. That was when he realized that it wasn't about "Dragon vs. DO," it was about the people who would never give up the fight.

In a way, by countering Balefire (which destroys the Pattern), Egwene was building on the Pattern, and she built herself right into it. Rand, becoming the Pattern, could, conceivably, have special access to a dead Egwene in that way. But, it doesn't matter. What matters is that Rand was finally able to release her from his "protection" and accept that you cannot be responsible for the decisions/actions of others. That was a big theme throughout the series (e.g., Birgitte & Nynaeve vs. Moghedien, Rand's litany of dead women, the Aiel in general, everyone's constant inability to distinguish between "caring about my welfare" and "meddling in my affairs," etc.).

Egwene was the White Flame, Rand was the Dragon's Tooth. They had to be at odds throughout the series, despite ultimately following the same goal. With Egwene's death, they were able to join together like the ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai. It didn't matter how her message got to Rand, it just matters that he got the message - and it wouldn't have happened if she survived. (Note: see the "Brandon's references to RJ's books" thread for parallels.)

At first, I thought the fact that Egwene's horse was "Daishar" (Glory) and Rand's was "Tai'Daishar" (Lord of Glory) meant that the White Tower would bend knee to Rand. Now, I think it just means that they were inevitably tied together, and Rand would be the one who survived.

Anyway, I love Egwene. I think she went through exceptional growth throughout the series and her character was absolutely essential. Sure, she was often frustrating, but who wasn't? And, yeah, I fault her for the whole Gawyn thing, but it was important for the story, too.

fionwe1987
02-15-2013, 12:19 PM
The only thing Eggy had was a couple of mentions in a little known part of the library that had some semblance of caution.
And her dreams. And how is this different from Rand's sources? He was working on Min's understanding of philosophical concepts in Fel's books, as well as her interpretation of the Prophesies. I know of nothing which says Min is better at interpreting prophesies than Egwene and the Brown scholars who made this their life's work. Min focussed on one part of it, Egwene on another. Both their information was needed for Rand's plan to work as it ended up working. Lews Therin himself had nothing to offer, here, as Rand's PoV reveals. They had scarce sources of information, so the White Towers millenia of study on the Prophesies is hardly something to sneeze at.
Plus, Rand was going to go ahead and break the seals anyways, until Moiraine showed up.
Egwene planned to stop him, though. If it came down to it, no doubt she'd have asked her armies to attack his. And she'd have been dead right. Because as we know, the moment the Seals were broken:
The seals crumbled. The Dark One burst free.
Rand held the Dark One tightly.

But for Rand being in position to hold the DO, the world would have ended the day of Merrilor if Rand had his way. Min came up with the final piece about Callandor after Merrilor. Rand had no idea what to do, then. He wasn't even 100% certain the DO wouldn't be able to break free:
“I don’t agree. Rand, you don’t know what releasing his seals will do—
you don t know if it might let him escape. You don’t know how close he was
to getting out when the Bore was last secured. Shattering those seals could
destroy the world itself! What if our only hope lies in the fact that he’s hindered this time, not completely free?”
“It won’t work, Egwene.”
“You don’t know that. How can you?”
He hesitated. “Many things in life are uncertain.”
“So you don’t know,” she said.

And Eggy wanted to remake the already weakening seals, to maybe put off Tarmon Gaidon for a few centuries. A plan that was also doomed to fail. Can't forget that.
That would be relevant if someone were accusing Rand of being a bad friend to Egwene because he didn't follow her hairbrained scheme. They both had it wrong/partly right. But we're not seeing them both being blamed.

Stopping them from doing stupid things, yes. But friends also tend to encourage it too.
They encourage stupid things? What friends are these?
Anyways, Eggy had a bad habit of blaming Rand for things that were not his fault. Or taking ripping into him for no real reason. Actually, she had a bad habit of that throughout the series. Pick out a book, find one of her POVs or someone else's POV that has her in it, point to a random part in it, and chances are she is berating someone or accusing someone, or just being plain foolish because she's Egwene.
Why don't you do that? Because I'm not able to find these seemingly abundant instances. This sounds more like Nynaeve, actually.
How people can see her as an epitome of a strong woman when she's more of a bully like Elaida, is beyond me.
Who does she bully? She stands up to people as strong or stronger than her. She doesn't go about using her strength to bully weaker people. She's the exact opposite of a bully.
That said, I did not want her to die, but did her death suit her? Well, she wanted adventure and power, and death usually comes to those people. Just that she had some of Elayne's stupid luck and was not blown to bits half a dozen times throughout the series. But instead, she burned her self out, turned into a crystal thing, and kicked the bucket.
Egwene wanted knowledge. Not adventure. And she burned herself out because she wanted to prevent a Foresaken from baelfiring the world into destruction. It was a choice, and she made the right call.

SauceyBlueConfetti
02-15-2013, 12:36 PM
For the most part I agree with all of your statements above...but two quick things that I don't nod my head:

They encourage stupid things? What friends are these?
supportive friends will raise their eyebrows at something and counsel you on their thoughts, but yes, they may just encourage you to do something THEY think is stupid because they understand your wants and needs to accomplish it. :D
I think Thom is the best example of this in the books, with his support of Elayne, Mat, Rand and Moiraine.



Egwene wanted knowledge. Not adventure. And she burned herself out because she wanted to prevent a Foresaken from baelfiring the world into destruction. It was a choice, and she made the right call.

Disagree. I can't find the quote (I didn't try really hard) where she specifically says she wants adventure (it may be in the split versions of EotW) but she references it repeatedly in the books, most clearly here:

TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 39 - Flight From the White Tower
"I suppose it is," Egwene said slowly. She found it hard to think that there had been a time when She had been eager to have an adventure, to do something dangerous and exciting like the people in stories. Now She thought the exciting part was what you remembered when you looked back, and the stories left out a good deal of unpleasantness. She told Elayne as much.

The Unreasoner
02-15-2013, 01:16 PM
I have noticed that men and women sometimes have different interpretations of the word 'support'. To me, support is something tangible, or at least definite (like advice). Egwene 'supports' Rand using the other definition (which I have never fully understood, but seems to be nothing more than a sympathetic ear at times. Or actively trying to stop you, but feeling a little bad about it).

Dom
02-15-2013, 01:38 PM
Regardless of whether Egwene (who did have a particularly special connection to TAR) spoke to Rand from beyond the grave, or whether it was just Rand's mind finally accepting the true nature of his relationship with Egwene - that was Rand's moment of final epiphany.

The scene really leaves little room for the conversation to have been imaginary. She reached out to him, and he heard her voice in his head. He even answered her aloud, not in his mind. There are limits to constructs scenarios. :P This happened for real, though the exact mechanism by which Egwene was able to reach out from beyond to Rand isn't terribly important.. the barriers were down where he stood, seemingly that included the one between Rand and the "afterlife" of normal people.

I agree with all the rest your points, though.


Her voice in his head. Fond, but sharp.

"Egwene?"

Am I not allowed to be a hero, too?

"It's not that . . ."

You march to your death. Yet you forbid anyone else from doing so?

"I . . ."

Let go, Rand. Let us die for what we believe, and do not try to steal that from us.

You have embraced your death. Embrace mine.

Tears leaked from the corners of his eyes. "I'm sorry," he whispered.

Why?

"I've failed."

No. Not yet you haven't.

Marie Curie 7
02-15-2013, 01:39 PM
Since some of the threads are starting to get diverted by Egwene discussion, it seems like it's about time the ONE THREAD for Egwene discussion post-AMoL was created.

Please see the forum rules (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=7507). Any Egwene discussion that derails other threads is subject to being moved to this, the ONE THREAD to rule them all (and in the darkness bind them).

fionwe1987
02-15-2013, 01:56 PM
Of all the people in all the worlds, Egwene was the one who needed to die for Rand to realize what he needed to do. I agree that many things can happen in WoT, but I also agree that there are rules to all of these things. Regardless of whether Egwene (who did have a particularly special connection to TAR) spoke to Rand from beyond the grave, or whether it was just Rand's mind finally accepting the true nature of his relationship with Egwene - that was Rand's moment of final epiphany. That was when he realized that it wasn't about "Dragon vs. DO," it was about the people who would never give up the fight.

In a way, by countering Balefire (which destroys the Pattern), Egwene was building on the Pattern, and she built herself right into it. Rand, becoming the Pattern, could, conceivably, have special access to a dead Egwene in that way. But, it doesn't matter. What matters is that Rand was finally able to release her from his "protection" and accept that you cannot be responsible for the decisions/actions of others. That was a big theme throughout the series (e.g., Birgitte & Nynaeve vs. Moghedien, Rand's litany of dead women, the Aiel in general, everyone's constant inability to distinguish between "caring about my welfare" and "meddling in my affairs," etc.).

Egwene was the White Flame, Rand was the Dragon's Tooth. They had to be at odds throughout the series, despite ultimately following the same goal. With Egwene's death, they were able to join together like the ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai. It didn't matter how her message got to Rand, it just matters that he got the message - and it wouldn't have happened if she survived. (Note: see the "Brandon's references to RJ's books" thread for parallels.)

At first, I thought the fact that Egwene's horse was "Daishar" (Glory) and Rand's was "Tai'Daishar" (Lord of Glory) meant that the White Tower would bend knee to Rand. Now, I think it just means that they were inevitably tied together, and Rand would be the one who survived.

Anyway, I love Egwene. I think she went through exceptional growth throughout the series and her character was absolutely essential. Sure, she was often frustrating, but who wasn't? And, yeah, I fault her for the whole Gawyn thing, but it was important for the story, too.
Agree with all of that. I had a post explaining how important it was that Egwene's death was the one who got Rand to finally let go, and how strongly that mirrored/put to shame Lanfear's efforts in a similar direction. Its one of the greater successes of the finale, I felt. She even got a hint of it in TAR:

A massive rose window dominated the far wall behind the Amyrlin Seat itself. The Flame at the center sparkled, as if there were sunlight beyond, though Egwene knew those boiling black clouds covered all the sky of
the World of Dreams.
She turned from the window, then froze.
There, set into the glass below the Flame of Tar Valon, was a large
segment in the shape of the Dragon's Fang. That wasn't part of the original window.
Egwene stepped forward, inspecting the glass.
There is a third constant besides the Creator and the Dark One, Verin's meticulous voice said, a memory from another time. There is a world that lies within each of these others, inside all of them at the same time. Or perhaps surrounding them. Writers in the Age of Legends called it Tel'aran'rhiod.
Did this window represent one of those, another world where Dragon and Amyrlin ruled Tar Valon side by side?

What it actually represented was what needed to happen in this world, of course. The rose window, made of glass, is a patch on a hole in the Tower's walls, and in it was represented the union of Dragon and Amyrlin. That's a symbol for what happened when Egwene patched a hole in the Pattern, and in so doing, was finally able to reach out to Rand and enable him to do what he had to.

For the most part I agree with all of your statements above...but two quick things that I don't nod my head:

supportive friends will raise their eyebrows at something and counsel you on their thoughts, but yes, they may just encourage you to do something THEY think is stupid because they understand your wants and needs to accomplish it. :D
I think Thom is the best example of this in the books, with his support of Elayne, Mat, Rand and Moiraine.
Fair enough, but this was hardly the time for that kind of friendship. Thom lets those people do somewhat stupid things because the fate of the world didn't rest at the end of this. Not that I think Egwene was capable of that for lesser disagreements. She usually prods at things till she gets her way. She hadn't matured enough by the end, I think, to have the patience to let people make mistakes and learn from it themselves.

Disagree. I can't find the quote (I didn't try really hard) where she specifically says she wants adventure (it may be in the split versionso of EotW) but she references is repeatedly in the books, most clearly here:
Fair enough, but she doesn't burn for adventure as she does for knowledge. As early as tGH, she seems to have lost that thirst to be chased through half a continent by trollocs and myrdraal. Unsurprisingly.

ETA: Should I move this to the Egwene thread?

The Unreasoner
02-15-2013, 02:05 PM
Idle thought:
Egwene, quite possibly the youngest Aes Sedai in the story (or ever) is depicted as being a 'great' Amyrlin, allegedly exhibiting all of the best characteristics of the Third Age AS. While Cadsuane (the oldest AS, at least until the Kin are raised) exhibits the best characteristics of the more advanced AS (like Pevara, Nynaeve), and is chosen as the new Amyrlin.

fionwe1987
02-15-2013, 02:47 PM
Idle thought:
Egwene, quite possibly the youngest Aes Sedai in the story (or ever) is depicted as being a 'great' Amyrlin, allegedly exhibiting all of the best characteristics of the Third Age AS. While Cadsuane (the oldest AS, at least until the Kin are raised) exhibits the best characteristics of the more advanced AS (like Pevara, Nynaeve), and is chosen as the new Amyrlin.
Egwene exhibits the qualities of the Third Age AS? I think you're mixing things up. Its Cadsuane who's a throwback to the Aes Sedai at their pinnacle, kidnapping Kings and Queens, toppling them or propping them up, gentling men, having obscure knowledge, acting as advisor to the Dragon Reborn, adventuring all her life, fighting Dreadlords and Foresaken... notice how many of the Ajah's purposes her life seems to encompass? She's the Aes Sedai's Aes Sedai, typical but not. Egwene was anything but. She was unconventional to the extreme, swept aside their laws and customs as she needed. She will be remembered as a great Amyrlin, but that's because she accomplished so much that was uniquely possible at the end of an Age. The other great ones we heard of also had such unique chances and took them, like Rashima Kerenmosa and Deane Aryman.

The Unreasoner
02-15-2013, 03:16 PM
Egwene exhibits the qualities of the Third Age AS? I think you're mixing things up. Its Cadsuane who's a throwback to the Aes Sedai at their pinnacle, kidnapping Kings and Queens, toppling them or propping them up, gentling men, having obscure knowledge, acting as advisor to the Dragon Reborn, adventuring all her life, fighting Dreadlords and Foresaken... notice how many of the Ajah's purposes her life seems to encompass? She's the Aes Sedai's Aes Sedai, typical but not. Egwene was anything but. She was unconventional to the extreme, swept aside their laws and customs as she needed. She will be remembered as a great Amyrlin, but that's because she accomplished so much that was uniquely possible at the end of an Age. The other great ones we heard of also had such unique chances and took them, like Rashima Kerenmosa and Deane Aryman.
We'll agree to disagree. Egwene was a Third Age Aes Sedai. Pretending to have knowledge of all things, irrationally angry when she comes off as ignorant, exceptionally tranquil. She began as slightly unconventional, but quickly became 'Aes Sedai' with the help of Siuan's coaching and Moiraine's, along with her single track mind (she does everything 'with her whole heart'). Read the chapter on Nynaeve's testing again, and you will see the difference between the two styles. Nynaeve (who was mentored after a fashion by Cadsuane) is a Fourth Age Aes Sedai, ready to adapt to a changing world. Egwene (mentored by Siuan) more often than not fought to maintain the status quo. She had some unconventional habits, but (if we accept her character) she was uniquely qualified to lead a Third Age White Tower. Playing factions off of one another, Daes Dae'mar, 'advising' rulers etc. Cadsuane flaunted custom, rarely engages in petty politics, maximizes the utility of AS (such as the intelligent but weak Daghian), and is a person of action and initiative (like Nynaeve). Kidnapping rulers is a nice talking point, but that doesn't change underlying natures. Adventuring? The stories are about such things, because they are interesting. 90% of being Aes Sedai though is not adventuring, but being annoyed at one's own ignorance, maintaining composure, and strutting around. Not such good stories. Cadsuane was the exception, Egwene the norm. And advising the Dragon is not like advising a normal ruler. At all. Cadsuane herself talks about her aversion to advising when Rand asks her too. While Egwene leaps at the chance to advise world rulers.

I repeat: It is an interesting juxtaposition. The oldest Aes Sedai being the role model for the new, while the youngest was the role model for the old.

JayDee
02-15-2013, 03:23 PM
This happened for real, though the exact mechanism by which Egwene was able to reach out from beyond to Rand isn't terribly important.
Rand was right up in there with the Dark One at that time, I figured he was interacting with Egwene through the same window by which Shai'tan could grab people's souls as they died as it were.

suttree
02-15-2013, 03:45 PM
Adventuring? The stories are about such things, because they are interesting. 90% of being Aes Sedai though is not adventuring, but being annoyed at one's own ignorance, maintaining composure, and strutting around. Not such good stories. Cadsuane was the exception, Egwene the norm. .

Actually the norm is those average every day sisters out in the world working for the greater good. We know more than a 1/3 of the WT is out in the world and they constantly rotate. Cads was the exception, Egwene with her calling AS fools and vowing they must change was another. AS was the bivkering group involved only in WT politics that the story focused. The norm is sisters like Meidani, just quietly going about their business.

TGS
Maps hung within delicate frames, centered on the walls like prized pieces of art. A pair of Aiel spears hung on either side of one map; another was a map of the Sea Folk islands. While many might have opted for the porcelain keepsakes that were so commonly associated with the Sea Folk, Meidani had a small collection of earrings and painted shells, carefully framed and displayed, along with a small plaque beneath listing dates of collection.

The sitting room was like a museum dedicated to one person's journeys. An Altaran marriage knife, set with four twinkling rubies, hung beside a small Cairhienin banner and a Shienar sword. Each had a small plaque explaining its significance. The marriage knife, for instance, had been presented to Meidani for her help in settling a dispute between two houses over the death of a particularly important landowner. His wife had given her the knife as a token of thanks.

Who would have thought that the cowering woman of the dinner a few weeks back would have such a proud collection? The rug itself was labeled, the gift of a trader who had purchased it on the closed docks of Shara, then bestowed it on Meidani in thanks for Healing his daughter.

The Unreasoner
02-15-2013, 04:04 PM
Actually the norm is those average every day sisters out in the world working for the greater good. We know more than a 1/3 of the WT is out in the world and they constantly rotate.
More than a third? I assume you mean less than half.

It's not really clear what Aes Sedai typically do. Even many Greens don't have much battle experience, so they're not taking shifts guarding the Blightborder. The largest Ajah is the Red, and there have been a bare few channeling men in recent history, so no real information there. Many people have experienced Healing at one point in their lives, but the Yellows don't seem to go too far out of their way to make it totally accessible (like Flinn, sustained several serious injuries serving in the military for a AS-friendly nation, was only healed once). The Whites apparently give little thought to anything outside the Tower, and little in it. Even during the series, the height of Third Age tension, AS more often than not are squabbling in the Tower or sipping wine punch in a randomass palace. Very few Aes Sedai do 'stuff'. But Cadsuane does it all.

suttree
02-15-2013, 04:27 PM
Even many Greens don't have much battle experience, so they're not taking shifts guarding the Blightborder.

Yes they are.

Interview: 2010
Twitter 2009-2010 (WoT) (Verbatim)
Terez (11 August 2010)
Are there actually Warders and Aes Sedai guarding the Blight at all times? Or is that another TEOTWism?
Brandon Sanderson (11 August 2010)
Well, there are Aes Sedai and Warders staying with most Borderlander monarchs.
BRANDON SANDERSON
I would say that yes, they are up there guarding. There are a disproportionate number, it seems, at times.


The largest Ajah is the Red, and there have been a bare few channeling men in recent history, so no real information there.

There have been far more than a "bare few". We know Cads has gentled more than 20 just herself. That is supposed to be more than any "two Reds".



Many people have experienced Healing at one point in their lives, but the Yellows don't seem to go too far out of their way to make it totally accessible (like Flinn, sustained several serious injuries serving in the military for a AS-friendly nation, was only healed once).

They use their eyes and ears to search out and go heal outbreaks of the diseas and the like. In addition to that travelling anyone is free to come to the WT. Further AS heal people while going through their every day travels. Hospitals would of course be far more effective.


Even during the series, the height of Third Age tension, AS more often than not are squabbling in the Tower or sipping wine punch in a randomass palace. Very few Aes Sedai do 'stuff'. But Cadsuane does it all.

Blues have their causes, we know Greys have averted numerous wars and forged treaties. There are great and there are terrible sisters. Again though the average is just like Meidani. Nearly every AS room we see in the WT has similar momentos from a long life lived working outside the WT. Don't get me wrong, it is a failed instituion that needs to change. This idea that they are layabouts that do nothing is absurd however.

fionwe1987
02-15-2013, 04:46 PM
We'll agree to disagree. Egwene was a Third Age Aes Sedai. Pretending to have knowledge of all things, irrationally angry when she comes off as ignorant, exceptionally tranquil. She began as slightly unconventional, but quickly became 'Aes Sedai' with the help of Siuan's coaching and Moiraine's, along with her single track mind (she does everything 'with her whole heart'). Read the chapter on Nynaeve's testing again, and you will see the difference between the two styles. Nynaeve (who was mentored after a fashion by Cadsuane) is a Fourth Age Aes Sedai, ready to adapt to a changing world. Egwene (mentored by Siuan) more often than not fought to maintain the status quo. She had some unconventional habits, but (if we accept her character) she was uniquely qualified to lead a Third Age White Tower. Playing factions off of one another, Daes Dae'mar, 'advising' rulers etc. Cadsuane flaunted custom, rarely engages in petty politics, maximizes the utility of AS (such as the intelligent but weak Daghian), and is a person of action and initiative (like Nynaeve). Kidnapping rulers is a nice talking point, but that doesn't change underlying natures. Adventuring? The stories are about such things, because they are interesting. 90% of being Aes Sedai though is not adventuring, but being annoyed at one's own ignorance, maintaining composure, and strutting around. Not such good stories. Cadsuane was the exception, Egwene the norm. And advising the Dragon is not like advising a normal ruler. At all. Cadsuane herself talks about her aversion to advising when Rand asks her too. While Egwene leaps at the chance to advise world rulers.

I repeat: It is an interesting juxtaposition. The oldest Aes Sedai being the role model for the new, while the youngest was the role model for the old.
Its almost as if Fain got to you about Egwene and the Aes Sedai. You're right, we should just agree to disagree. There's so much nonsense there I'm afraid I can't sift through it all.

fionwe1987
02-15-2013, 04:59 PM
This idea that they are layabouts that do nothing is absurd however.
Exactly. In New Spring, Moiraine says that every Blue sister currently in the Tower was there to welcome them. That number was 39 sisters and three Sitters. Plues Aldera, if you count her. That's about half, or less than half their number, and I doubt the rest were away on a vacation in a nice beachside resort.

The Unreasoner
02-15-2013, 05:03 PM
Yes they are.
I didn't mean to set you off. I was just pointing out a bit of an interesting juxtaposition. The young as a role model for the last Age, the old as a role model in the new. And I'm talking about attitude as well as action.

Sure, some are guarding. But over the two year period we see, there aren't all that many. Where were the AS in TEoTW? I don't remember Agelmar talking about 'the Green sisters currently in Shienar' aiding them in Tarwin's Gap. They had none. Never did someone even say that it was a shame that the Aes Sedai in Fal Moran could not possibly make it in time. Sure, the monarchs have advisors. Sure, some are guarding. But can you name even one sister that took a regular turn guarding the border? As in, not Tarmon Gaidon?


There have been far more than a "bare few". We know Cads has gentled more than 20 just herself. That is supposed to be more than any "two Reds".
In the last twenty years, there were 24. There must be at least 140 Red sisters. Lots of idle hands.

As for Cadsuane taking twenty (not gentling), if that's true, great. Proves my point. The average sister (even one dedicated to the hunt) probably handles no more than 4 or so, in a lifetime well over 100 years. Cadsuane is not the typical Third Age Aes Sedai.

They use their eyes and ears to search out and go heal outbreaks of the diseas and the like. In addition to that travelling anyone is free to come to the WT. Further AS heal people while going through their every day travels. Hospitals would of course be far more effective.

Exactly. Even assuming regular outbreaks at one a year, dealing with them is still the exception, not the norm. As for people coming to the White Tower, few people are sick enough to need Healing while also being well enough to survive a thousand mile or more journey to Tar Valon, even riding in a carriage the whole way. As I said with Flinn, Healing was an uncommon thing.

Blues have their causes, we know Greys have averted numerous wars and forged treaties. There are great and there are terrible sisters. Again though the average is just like Meidani. Nearly every AS room we see in the WT has similar momentos from a long life lived working outside the WT. Don't get me wrong, it is a failed instituion that needs to change. This idea that they are layabouts that do nothing is absurd however.
Part of the problem is one inherent to all fantasy. That is, the world doesn't have enough detail to fill in the gaps. So we get vague 'causes' or 'evidence' of a life well-lived. There are only so many wars to stop.

I'm sure every Aes Sedai is doing 'something'. My point is that Cadsuane is not the norm, as fionwe tried to argue.

The Unreasoner
02-15-2013, 05:08 PM
Exactly. In New Spring, Moiraine says that every Blue sister currently in the Tower was there to welcome them. That number was 39 sisters and three Sitters. Plues Aldera, if you count her. That's about half, or less than half their number, and I doubt the rest were away on a vacation in a nice beachside resort.
You're deliberately misunderstanding my point. Egwene was a Third Age Amyrlin. The Third Age was relatively stagnant, no matter how many Aes Sedai were 'busy'. The Fourth Age calls for new methods, and a more dynamic Amyrlin for a changing world.

suttree
02-15-2013, 05:16 PM
Where were the AS in TEoTW? I don't remember Agelmar talking about 'the Green sisters currently in Shienar' aiding them in Tarwin's Gap. They had none. Never did someone even say that it was a shame that the Aes Sedai in Fal Moran could not possibly make it in time.

They were up scouting the blight in other areas. Agelmar talks of getting reports from them and the other countries thinking a similar attack was heading towards them. nPre travelling of course, especially during a time in which they were only seeing raids there is not enough sisters or enough time to be everywhere.

As for the #24 wasn't that in relation to the illegal stillings during the vileness?

The Unreasoner
02-15-2013, 05:47 PM
They were up scouting the blight in other areas. Agelmar talks of getting reports from them and the other countries thinking a similar attack was heading towards them. nPre travelling of course, especially during a time in which they were only seeing raids there is not enough sisters or enough time to be everywhere.
I don't remember this, but I'll take your word for it.

You would think that some would ride with Agelmar though, or the bulk of the army. Or even just one with either.
As for the #24 wasn't that in relation to the illegal stillings during the vileness?
Twenty-four men found in the last twenty years, and yes, that includes the illegal ones. Not twenty-four illegal ones, twenty-four total in twenty years. But you are right in how I found the number. Where did you get the 20 for Cads? When Rand met her in ACoS?

fionwe1987
02-15-2013, 05:47 PM
My point is that Cadsuane is not the norm, as fionwe tried to argue.
I argued no such thing. I said Cadsuane was the throwback to the Aes Sedai of old. Crafty, powerful, and doing all sorts of things. This is explicitly from Jordan's notes, so I don't even know what you're arguing here:

There are the usual tales expected of a Green, only more of them. Riots suppressed and wars stopped single-handedly; rulers steadied on their thrones, or pulled from them, sometimes toppled openly and sometimes more subtly (toppling rulers was something Aes Sedai had not really done much of in the last thousand years, but Cadsuane seemed in many ways a throwback).

I'm not saying these things, Jordan is. Go argue with him, if you think he's wrong about his creations.

Your fundamental mistake is assuming that the Aes Sedai of the last part of the third Age are representative of the Aes Sedai at their pinnacle in the Third Age. Cadsuane is a representative of that pinnacle, a throwback in many ways, as Jordan says. She's nothing new, she's just a holdout from the steady downfall of the Aes Sedai since Hawkwing's time.

You're deliberately misunderstanding my point. Egwene was a Third Age Amyrlin. The Third Age was relatively stagnant, no matter how many Aes Sedai were 'busy'. The Fourth Age calls for new methods, and a more dynamic Amyrlin for a changing world.
And Egwene's time as Amyrlin reeks of stagnancy to you? :confused: I give up. Clearly, you're reading some parallel Wheel of Time series. If Egwene, who in a matter of months took control of the Rebel Hall, opened up the Novice Book, led a siege on Tar Valon, successfully damaged Elaida's regime as a captive, staved off the worst of the Seanchan attack, cleared out the Black Ajah, united the White Tower, defeated a Foresaken, created a powerful and important alliance with the WO and the WF, altered the way the Hall works, created a coalition of rulers to check Rand, fought the Last Battle, killed thousands of Shadowspawn and hundreds of channelers and killed another Foresaken and then saved the world from disintegrating... if this is supposed to be a representative of the "stagnant" Third Age Aes Sedai, I can only conclude that you think the word stagnant means "hyperactive and almost unbelievably successful".

ETA: Forgot to add. Egwene is the only known Amyrlin to have let a False Dragon escape in the specific hope that he will join an organization of male channelers. Directly as a result, the Black Tower continues to exist today. How very conventional of Egwene...

suttree
02-15-2013, 06:01 PM
Where did you get the 20 for Cads? When Rand met her in ACoS?

RJ's notes

That seems to indicate at least twenty of them by that time, maybe more. She brought more of them to Tar Valon than any other sister.

As for receving reports here is the quote:

tEotW
Every king and council is sure a great thrust is coming out of the Blight, and every one of the Borderlands believes it is coming at them. None of their scouts, and none of the Warders, report Trolloc massing above their borders, as we have here, but they believe, and each is afraid to send fighting men elsewhere.

The Unreasoner
02-15-2013, 06:08 PM
I argued no such thing. I said Cadsuane was the throwback to the Aes Sedai of old. Crafty, powerful, and doing all sorts of things. This is explicitly from Jordan's notes, so I don't even know what you're arguing here:
But I'm not talking about 'tales' or 'legends'. Like I said to suttree, some may be busy as hell. I'm talking about breaking up the status quo. Bonding Asha'man (which Cadsuane clearly initiated), mission before Tower (what I do will be for your good, not the Tower's), things of that sort. Egwene and Nynaeve disagree on whether one should put the Tower before everything else. Third Age Aes Sedai kept the status quo, which was (to oversimplify) Tower Over All. I'm not even saying that that was a bad thing, at least for the Third Age. Men needed to be gentled, rulers needed to be guided. Memories of the Dragon had to be preserved. Egwene maintained the status quo, in focusing on unifying the Tower before dealing with the world's problems (Cadsuane chose the opposite, and so did Elayne and Nynaeve, in a practical sense). Egwene wanted Tower supremacy over women channelers. She wanted to guide rulers and help them fight Shadowspawn. She was a Third Age Amyrlin. We all know you love Egwene. And I didn't call her story stagnant, I called the Third Age stagnant. The status quo didn't change really, until the end. And Egwene did little there. No thoughts on what to do about the Seanchan for the most part, until that ridiculous argument with Tuon (which, you will note, changed almost nothing). No thought given to how to deal with the Black Tower. She kept this theme until the very end, wanting to make new Seals instead of forging anew.

What I'm saying is that the Fourth Age will see a new type of Aes Sedai. Egwene might be all someone could wish for in a Third Age Amyrlin (Tarmon Gaidon hero, Daes Daemar playing, Tower Over All mentality). But the Fourth Age will see many changes, and a new status quo. Sisters who aren't as aloof, with families, Ash'aman equals, even sul'dam friends. And so the Aes Sedai turn to Cadsuane.

fionwe1987
02-15-2013, 07:14 PM
But I'm not talking about 'tales' or 'legends'.
RJ made it clear these are real events, and these real events make her a real throwback to real Aes Sedai.
Like I said to suttree, some may be busy as hell. I'm talking about breaking up the status quo. Bonding Asha'man (which Cadsuane clearly initiated),
And not gentling them, which Egwene initiated, even before the Taint was removed.
mission before Tower (what I do will be for your good, not the Tower's), things of that sort.
This makes perfect sense for someone whose mission is not the Tower. If we'd seen Egwene say this as Rand's advisor, you'd have some point. As it stands:

"I do not see how you can be so calm. Siuan could be dead, or even stilled. Elaida will either oppose Rand altogether or try to hold him somewhere until Tarmon Gai'don; you know she'll never let a man who can channel run free. At least not everyone is behind Elaida. Some of the Blue Ajah are gathering somewhere-I don't know where yet-and I think others have left the Tower, too. Nynaeve said that she was given a message about all sisters being welcome to return to the Tower by an eyes-and-ears of the Yellow. If Blues and Yellows have both gone, others must have. And if they oppose Elaida, they may support Rand."
Moiraine sighed, a soft sound. "Do you expect me to be happy that the White Tower has split apart? I am Aes Sedai, Egwene. I gave my life to the Tower long before I ever suspected the Dragon would, be Reborn in my lifetime.

Its Egwene who saw the immediate advantages of the Tower dividing. Later, she justifies lying about Logain and carrying on the division because without it, Elaida would simply try to kidnap Rand, or even try to destroy the Black Tower. But Egwene's mission was the Tower. That was her "part". So once that began, she obviously didn't put her mission above the Tower.
Egwene and Nynaeve disagree on whether one should put the Tower before everything else.
Not in the way you imply, though. Egwene already had thoughts in TAR about living her own life, and marrying Gawyn and how that matters as much as any cause she associated with herself as Aes Sedai. What Egwene is arguing, though, is that as an Aes Sedai, there is value in putting the Tower over other pursuits because the Tower can do more than individual Aes Sedai can. It can be a very effective organization. This isn't the same as saying the Tower is always right, or the only part of the world that matters (these are Elaida's views). She is fully aware of the Tower's foolishness and speaks of it many times. You're simply confusing her obsession with making the Tower a powerful tool against the Shadow with a belief that the Tower is always the best. We know she considers the Wise Ones with far greater regard than she does the Tower.
Third Age Aes Sedai kept the status quo, which was (to oversimplify) Tower Over All.
Egwene never saw it that way. She would rather see it divided than opposing Rand. She respects the Wise Ones more than any Aes Sedai. She thinks the Tower is full of problems, and full of foolish women, and even calls herself the Queen of Fools. As she explains to the Wise Ones, she considers it her duty to lead them to something better. Cadsuane also considers the Tower to be filled with fools. And she responds to this by distancing herself from the Tower. Their motives are exactly the same, though.
I'm not even saying that that was a bad thing, at least for the Third Age. Men needed to be gentled,
And Egwene refused to countenance it even for a False Dragon who had killed Aes Sedai.
rulers needed to be guided.
Which Egwene did by releasing Mattin Stephaneos, and openly dealing with the other rulers? She never sought control over any of them.
Memories of the Dragon had to be preserved. Egwene maintained the status quo, in focusing on unifying the Tower before dealing with the world's problems
No. She focussed on dealing with the Tower to deal with the world's problems. Where others threw up their hands and ran as far as they could from the idiocies of the Tower, she chose to work to effect change.

"Many of them are fools, but are we not all fools at some point? You did not abandon me to my failures when you found me walking Tel'aran'rhiod. In like manner, I cannot abandon those of the White Tower."
Amys' eyes narrowed. "You have grown much since we last met, Egwene al'Vere."
That sent a thrill through Egwene. "I had much need to grow. My life has been difficult of late."
"When confronted by a collapsed roof," Bair said, "some will begin to haul away the refuse, becoming stronger for the process. Others will go to visit their brother's hold and drink his water."

She was very clearly not interested in maintaining any status quo.

(Cadsuane chose the opposite, and so did Elayne and Nynaeve, in a practical sense).
Really? Elayne chose to work on her country, and unify it. Can we make an argument that she put her country above Tarmon Gai'don. Or can we say that she saw that a divided Andor would be less useful against the Shadow?
Egwene wanted Tower supremacy over women channelers.
She wanted no such thing, and made sure that the Hall would attempt no such idiocy.
She wanted to guide rulers and help them fight Shadowspawn.
How is this even a Third Age thing? Aes Sedai of the Fourth Age won't want to do the exact same thing?
She was a Third Age Amyrlin. We all know you love Egwene.
Dude... stop trying to make things personal. You have this cheap habit of taking things personal when your arguments are not working out.
And I didn't call her story stagnant, I called the Third Age stagnant. The status quo didn't change really, until the end.
And all those changes are Egwene's. Be it the huge influx of new talent, or the accord with other channeling groups which legitimizes their existence, or stopping the practice of gentling men, or eradicating secrecy and shadowy tactics in the Hall. Cadsuane has been a part of one game changing act: bonding Asha'man. Which she suggested so they could be controlled better. And she was right to do so because they had the taint to deal with then,
And Egwene did little there. No thoughts on what to do about the Seanchan for the most part,
Except, she made an alliance with the WO and the WF precisely because even after the Shadow was gone, the Seanchan would remain.
until that ridiculous argument with Tuon (which, you will note, changed almost nothing).
It changes everything. How does freedom for any damane who asks not change anything?
No thought given to how to deal with the Black Tower.
Of all the characters, she's had the most critical effect on how male channelers are treated. She stopped the practice of Aes Sedai gentling them, and forced the Reds to acknowledge that saidin was clean, and gentling was no longer an option. She also guided the Hall's plan to bond Asha'man warders by making it clear that it couldn't be a modified bond that would allow the Aes Sedai greater control over the Asha'man. Exactly how is all this "nothing"?

And name for me one other AS who has had any thoughts on the BT, and who isn't bonded to one of the Asha'man. Elayne? She sought to control them, that's all.
She kept this theme until the very end, wanting to make new Seals instead of forging anew.
This has nothing to do with Third Age Aes Sedai. And she only suggested it when Rand made it clear he had no other plan in the works.
What I'm saying is that the Fourth Age will see a new type of Aes Sedai.
Yes. The kind who sees it as stupid to let weaker women leave the Tower, instead of realizing how capable and useful they are. The kind who won't let ludicrous factors like age affect who can join the Tower. The kind who'll need good leadership skills and ethical judgment, which she'll learn from the Wise Ones. Who'll need to learn how to integrate with society, which she'll learn from the Sea Folk. Who'll need to innovate, and be bold, and realize the flaws in the current Aes Sedai system. The kind who won't hold herself above doing common tasks.
Sisters who aren't as aloof, with families, Ash'aman equals, even sul'dam friends.
This is nearing a parody. Egwene al'Vere, who worked with Asha'man, was married and wanted kids, and had a Seanchan warder wants to say hi.

And so the Aes Sedai turn to Cadsuane.
Who will probably toss any sul'dam who comes near her on her knee and begin spanking them, who has no family, who's far removed from everyday life as can be, who threatened to paddle the bottom of the current Asha'man leader, and still has things to teach the Asha'man...

I mean, don't get me wrong, she's perfect as Egwene's successor. But she's as far from your vision of modern Aes Sedai as possible.

GonzoTheGreat
02-16-2013, 04:44 AM
The only thing Eggy had was a couple of mentions in a little known part of the library that had some semblance of caution.

And her dreams. And how is this different from Rand's sources? He was working on Min's understanding of philosophical concepts in Fel's books, as well as her interpretation of the Prophesies. I know of nothing which says Min is better at interpreting prophesies than Egwene and the Brown scholars who made this their life's work. Min focussed on one part of it, Egwene on another.
Another of Rand's sources, of course, was Lews Therin Telamon: Rand himself. Who, it just so happens, was the actual person who personally had made the Seals. He was the only remaining person with actual personal experience of having touched those things to the DO. He was apparently capable of distinguishing between the real Seals and the fakes which had fooled Egwene with her nifty records.

So all in all, I would say that Rand did indeed have better information on the subject than Egwene had. Not perfect information, of course. It is possible for a general to wait with acting until he or she has perfect information. Such generals will then invariably be defeated by more impatient but also more realistic opponents who simply make a best guess and then perhaps adapt when things turn out to be somewhat different than expected.

Rand was slightly wrong about the Seals, Egwene was far more wrong, and Moiraine managed to get the best possible compromise out of the situation. Despite having been out of the loop for months.

Oh, and I doubt the "if the Seals had been broken earlier, then the DO would have broken free immediately" argument. If true, then why didn't Taim break them when he had them?
He had clearly been following some kind of instructions about the things; there had been plenty of time for him to take them to the DO and offer to break them on the spot.

fionwe1987
02-16-2013, 09:30 AM
Another of Rand's sources, of course, was Lews Therin Telamon: Rand himself. Who, it just so happens, was the actual person who personally had made the Seals. He was the only remaining person with actual personal experience of having touched those things to the DO. He was apparently capable of distinguishing between the real Seals and the fakes which had fooled Egwene with her nifty records.
Except Rand makes it clear Lews Therin has no alternative, and does not have the answer. He was waiting for Min to find it. When asked straight out how he could know whether the DO would break free or not, he makes it very clear he's not sure. Lews Theirn knew a lot of things, and was an enormous resource, but not in this matter. The answers lay in Prophesy and books, and Dreams too.
So all in all, I would say that Rand did indeed have better information on the subject than Egwene had. Not perfect information, of course. It is possible for a general to wait with acting until he or she has perfect information. Such generals will then invariably be defeated by more impatient but also more realistic opponents who simply make a best guess and then perhaps adapt when things turn out to be somewhat different than expected.
That's a lovely soundbyte, but a good general also knows to listen to all sides of information before making up his mind. He doesn't just listen to those who agree with him, or with sources that make him feel comfortable. Egwene's own dream, and that of the former Amyrlin Dreamer, were both critical sources of info indicating that he should not break the Seals immediately. And it was available to him right away. So your analogy doesn't work.

Oh, and I doubt the "if the Seals had been broken earlier, then the DO would have broken free immediately" argument.
Doubt all you want. That is exactly what happened. I care for what the books says happened more than what you want to insist would have happened.
If true, then why didn't Taim break them when he had them?
That question can be asked even if the DO wouldn't break free. He'd certainly have had more access to sway the battles. Perhaps the DO didn't know he'd break free fully. Perhaps there was a Dark Prophesy that Moridin misinterpreted that gave a timing for breaking the Seals, and seemed to indicate Taim should do it (but was actually referring to Logain.) It could even be the DP we saw at the end of ToM. Maybe Moridin thought Taim was the first among Vermin, and needed to wait till the "One-Eyed Fool" traveled the halls of mourning.

He had clearly been following some kind of instructions about the things; there had been plenty of time for him to take them to the DO and offer to break them on the spot.
And this situation doesn't change, whether the DO would break free or just have greater influence. Both would be advantages for the Shadow. This is certainly not proof the DO wouldn't break free, especially because he did burst free the moment the Seals broke. Exactly as Egwene worried.

DahLliA
02-20-2013, 10:25 AM
They encourage stupid things? What friends are these?

The only kind worth having :D

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTSI3x5vswWz5461GHB0vQIPGCkQDZ19 SuBCSZ7g4tFdbuR88bB

Rand al'Fain
02-21-2013, 02:11 AM
The only kind worth having :D

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTSI3x5vswWz5461GHB0vQIPGCkQDZ19 SuBCSZ7g4tFdbuR88bB

My point exactly. Everyone has at least one friend who encourages you, if not joins you, in doing stupid things.

In Rand's case, it was Mat when they were younger (all of his pranks and what not).

Alec
02-24-2013, 02:12 PM
Who does she bully? She stands up to people as strong or stronger than her. She doesn't go about using her strength to bully weaker people. She's the exact opposite of a bully.

She bullies Nynaeve in TAR.

The Unreasoner
02-24-2013, 05:33 PM
She bullies Nynaeve in TAR.
The only place she is stronger.


How about Egwene using blackmail to force Aes Sedai into de facto slavery (oath of fealty+Oaths)? That certainly falls in the category of people with power abusing others that we call bullying.

neurotopia
02-24-2013, 06:39 PM
I'm pretty sure she took an Accepted's lunch money too. :p

Daekyras
02-25-2013, 06:18 AM
I'm pretty sure she took an Accepted's lunch money too. :p

Do kids ACTUALLY do that in US schools??

GonzoTheGreat
02-25-2013, 07:08 AM
Do kids ACTUALLY do that in US schools??
It teaches the valuable lesson that theft is not something to report to the authorities.

Rand al'Fain
02-26-2013, 01:41 AM
Do kids ACTUALLY do that in US schools??

Not all schools, but some schools, yes.

The Unreasoner
02-26-2013, 06:51 PM
I'm pretty sure she took an Accepted's lunch money too. :p
She also used fear to manipulate novices into doing what she wants, making her a terrorist.

fdsaf3
02-28-2013, 12:13 PM
Do kids ACTUALLY do that in US schools??

Ok, so imagine this.

My high school had 2800-3000 kids in it on a given day. My graduating class alone was 750 or so. If you bought lunch, you'd have to go through the line and pay at the end by entering a PIN. As far as I can remember (I graduated high school 10 years ago, so it's a bit hazy), you just had to say your name to verify that it was your account. Not to mention that the cashiers were whipping you through as fast as they could because there was always a huge line of hungry teenagers behind you.

Ok. So my older brother played varsity football, and as a result I knew a lot of the varsity guys even as a freshman. This really boosted my coolness, but it also made me victim to a bunch of pranks. The offensive linemen (my brother played offensive line, so they were like my other brothers) used to love picking me up and carrying me to the opposite corner of the school right before class started. I would try to fight against the flow of literally hundreds or thousands of kids to try and make it back to my class on time, but I was late a lot. My teachers were mostly ok with it once they figured out what was going on.

The other big prank I remember is that the football team loved depleting my account of money. My parents would write a check for like $100, and that would last me a while. But once the football guys found out my number (and I have no idea how they did), they would all eat for free until the account was run dry. True story. I remember a few times I couldn't eat lunch because I didn't have money in the account. They made up for it by inviting me to the party after the game on Friday night, but it was still a pain in the ass.

So, long story short, yes, this does happen in U.S. schools. At least to me, it did.

Ishara
03-04-2013, 04:44 PM
Okay, let's try to stay on-topic to WoT, please. :)

Davian93
03-04-2013, 06:59 PM
Okay, let's try to stay on-topic to WoT, please. :)

See, Egwene sucks so bad that people would rather discuss their HS lives than WoT.


~back on topic~

SauceyBlueConfetti
03-12-2013, 10:07 AM
Wow. The boards have died suddenly.


I personally was happy with Egwene's overall character arc completion in the book...Gawyn bugged me more than Egwene anyway, and that proved true to the end.

While I think she made some dumb choices, did dumb things, was annoying at times, I still enjoyed her growth from the wide-eyed young girl to the woman who could accept an overwhelming burden of responsibility.

I would have liked to see a *wee bit* of self doubt and fear in her though. Being brave tends to happen when you don't think about it, and dawns on you later what idiotic chances you took. (At least in my real life.) Her character was a bit too focused on being firm and brave and doing THE BEST THING EVER FOR THE WORLD!!! TA-DAAAAAA!


Ok, that is my Egwene rant. I never recall taking a real stance on Egs before.

GonzoTheGreat
03-12-2013, 11:52 AM
Well done, that. Can you now also explain what Valan Luca was up to in this book, and why he's Egwene's alter ego?

SauceyBlueConfetti
03-12-2013, 12:24 PM
Well done, that. Can you now also explain what Valan Luca was up to in this book, and why he's Egwene's alter ego?

If you say Bloody Mary three times, he might come out. Please don't.

fionwe1987
03-12-2013, 06:51 PM
Wow. The boards have died suddenly.


I personally was happy with Egwene's overall character arc completion in the book...Gawyn bugged me more than Egwene anyway, and that proved true to the end.

While I think she made some dumb choices, did dumb things, was annoying at times, I still enjoyed her growth from the wide-eyed young girl to the woman who could accept an overwhelming burden of responsibility.

I would have liked to see a *wee bit* of self doubt and fear in her though. Being brave tends to happen when you don't think about it, and dawns on you later what idiotic chances you took. (At least in my real life.) Her character was a bit too focused on being firm and brave and doing THE BEST THING EVER FOR THE WORLD!!! TA-DAAAAAA!


Ok, that is my Egwene rant. I never recall taking a real stance on Egs before.
But they couldn't show her that way. For the thematic parallels to work, she had to be very Rand-like. They both refused to show their real selves, accepting a mantle of great responsibility. Then they wore it so long it became part of them. Brandon handled it terribly with the whole "anger of the Amyrlin" crap, but the basic point still stands. These two were the only ones of their age group who completely internalized their responsibilities, and focused their remaining lives on those goals.