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Southpaw2012
02-17-2013, 05:03 PM
yeah speaking of which, what DO we know so far about what happens post AMoL? I know Brandon has said that Malkier does return and that Faile gets the crown but what else? Is that it so far?

fionwe1987
02-17-2013, 05:37 PM
yeah speaking of which, what DO we know so far about what happens post AMoL? I know Brandon has said that Malkier does return and that Faile gets the crown but what else? Is that it so far?
Cadsuane becomes Amyrlin. The Asha'man don't join the Aes Sedai, but remain separate. That's about all we know for certain. For sure, we can speculate about things, like the Whitecloaks moving to Mayene, the Aiel perhaps setting up a base at the Caralain Grass, and rebuilding Rhuidean too. We can perhaps expect a war with Shara, in the future. An explosion of numbers in the White and Black Towers, closer ties between the WO, WF and AS. Some kind of memorial at Merrilor, for sure, and probably another one at Shayol Ghul. Caemlyn will probably be rebuilt by the Ogier... Tons of stuff that's fairly obvious.

GonzoTheGreat
02-18-2013, 04:23 AM
A lot of Aiel Asha'man too.

fionwe1987
02-18-2013, 11:04 AM
A lot of Aiel Asha'man too.

Why would that be? The Wise Ones aren't going to let themselves join the WT. Why would they let the men join the BT? And we know that Aviendha's sons will be born able to channel, and channel well right from birth. They'll take care of training, I suspect.

GonzoTheGreat
02-18-2013, 11:31 AM
Being able to channel does not automatically translate to being able to teach how to weave all possible things, or even knowing what kinds of things are possible in the first place.
Then there's the problem of understanding what your 6 day old teacher is trying to convey ...

The Aiel know that all the male channelers they'd send out had ended up badly: either killed because they did not have enough training to defend themselves, or captured for the same reason. On top of that, they no longer have the reasons they had for letting those males seek out Shayol Gul in the first place.
On the other hand, there's the Aiel attitude of "if you have some kind of ability that can benefit your people, then you should learn how to use it properly". That is going to be a strong recruiting tool.

Then there is the fact that Logain can set up a looser organisation than the WT has become, and will benefit from that by being the sole group of male channelers, rather than one of many groups (of female channelers) as the WT is.

Logain can offer a "train with us, and then go (back) wherever you want to, under the jurisdiction of the BT" deal to all. Not just the Aiel, but also the Sea Folk. And the Ogier, though the fact that they can't channel may present some practical problems. Doesn't mean they can't be given an official invitation, though.

I'm wondering whether or not Aviendha will tell anyone about Rand's "bubble shower" trick. Could be a good first research project for the new Age.

fionwe1987
02-18-2013, 11:45 AM
Being able to channel does not automatically translate to being able to teach how to weave all possible things, or even knowing what kinds of things are possible in the first place.
Then there's the problem of understanding what your 6 day old teacher is trying to convey ...

She was convinced that no living person understood the One Power as she and her siblings did. She'd been able to weave since she'd been a child, and her brothers and sister were the same. To them, it was natural, and all others who channeled seemed awkward by comparison.

They could weave from the beginning, and understood the OP better than anyone. At six, they might be hard to understand, but at 10, 12, 14? And they don't need to teach all possible things. Only the basics, so the Aiel men can start working out saidin just as the BT did.

The Aiel know that all the male channelers they'd send out had ended up badly: either killed because they did not have enough training to defend themselves, or captured for the same reason. On top of that, they no longer have the reasons they had for letting those males seek out Shayol Gul in the first place.
On the other hand, there's the Aiel attitude of "if you have some kind of ability that can benefit your people, then you should learn how to use it properly". That is going to be a strong recruiting tool.
Exactly. All these are reasons for the Aiel to learn from the BT, just as they accepted that they needed to learn OP use from the WT. That doesn't mean the Aiel men will become Asha'man.
Then there is the fact that Logain can set up a looser organisation than the WT has become, and will benefit from that by being the sole group of male channelers, rather than one of many groups (of female channelers) as the WT is.
He hardly seems to be in the frame of mind to do this. Plus, why would the men accept joining a foreign organization when their women have the freedom of their own organization. Aiel will be the first to allow male and female channelers to marry, if they want, and the Aiel men will have strong ties to their Wise Ones anyway. Unlike the AS, the WO are deeply respected. The men will want to become Wise Ones, not be affiliated with another organization separate from the Wise Ones.

Logain can offer a "train with us, and then go (back) wherever you want to, under the jurisdiction of the BT" deal to all. Not just the Aiel, but also the Sea Folk. And the Ogier, though the fact that they can't channel may present some practical problems. Doesn't mean they can't be given an official invitation, though.
That's the thing... why would the male Aiel accept affiliation with the BT when the females don't? They have a strong body of channelers they respect. They'll aspire to join that organization, and that organization will have far fewer barriers to men joining than any other we know of.
I'm wondering whether or not Aviendha will tell anyone about Rand's "bubble shower" trick. Could be a good first research project for the new Age.
Its hardly difficult to achieve. Elayne already has a washing machine trick. This isn't far removed from that. They'll figure it out soon enough.

GonzoTheGreat
02-18-2013, 12:24 PM
Exactly. All these are reasons for the Aiel to learn from the BT, just as they accepted that they needed to learn OP use from the WT. That doesn't mean the Aiel men will become Asha'man.
But, at least for now, the BT has a very rigorous "if you can learn, you'll be one of us" policy. That was for the protection of the whole world from the danger of channeling men, but there doesn't seem a clear reason why they would need to change it. And, given the understandable paranoia about channeling men that lots of people will have, there is reason not to change it, yet.

He hardly seems to be in the frame of mind to do this. Plus, why would the men accept joining a foreign organization when their women have the freedom of their own organization.
It is an international organisation. Even though it is based in Andor, it is not an Andoran institution.

Aiel will be the first to allow male and female channelers to marry, if they want, and the Aiel men will have strong ties to their Wise Ones anyway. Unlike the AS, the WO are deeply respected. The men will want to become Wise Ones, not be affiliated with another organization separate from the Wise Ones.
I'm not sure the WO would be immediately willing to accept such a change. For them, channeling is not necessary for being a Wise One. So should they now also accept male apprentices who can't channel?

That's the thing... why would the male Aiel accept affiliation with the BT when the females don't?
Why not?
They have loads of societies already; this would be just one more.

They have a strong body of channelers they respect. They'll aspire to join that organization, and that organization will have far fewer barriers to men joining than any other we know of.
Which body would that be? Not the Wise Ones; being able to channel is not a requirement for that.

Its hardly difficult to achieve. Elayne already has a washing machine trick. This isn't far removed from that. They'll figure it out soon enough.
True. Though it could be amusing to watch some failed attempts from a safe distance. :D

fionwe1987
02-18-2013, 06:21 PM
But, at least for now, the BT has a very rigorous "if you can learn, you'll be one of us" policy. That was for the protection of the whole world from the danger of channeling men, but there doesn't seem a clear reason why they would need to change it. And, given the understandable paranoia about channeling men that lots of people will have, there is reason not to change it, yet.
That's the thing. The BT has such a policy, and I really don't see the Aiel accepting that as a reasonable price for some learning.

It is an international organisation. Even though it is based in Andor, it is not an Andoran institution.
It is not an Aiel institution. The WT is also an international institution, and you don't see female Aiel channelers lining up to become Aes Sedai.

I'm not sure the WO would be immediately willing to accept such a change. For them, channeling is not necessary for being a Wise One. So should they now also accept male apprentices who can't channel?
Probably, yes.

Why not?
They have loads of societies already; this would be just one more.
None of their societies has non-Aiel members, and a non-Aiel leadership. Doesn't begin to compare to Far Dareis Mai, say,.

Which body would that be? Not the Wise Ones; being able to channel is not a requirement for that.
Having the ability is not necessary, but it is sufficient. No woman who can channel is allowed to refuse becoming a Wise One. Amys and Aviendha both tried to no success.

True. Though it could be amusing to watch some failed attempts from a safe distance. :D
Totally.

EvilChani
02-18-2013, 10:07 PM
I'm not sure the WO would be immediately willing to accept such a change. For them, channeling is not necessary for being a Wise One. So should they now also accept male apprentices who can't channel?

I don't see the Wise Ones accepting men as apprentices, channelers or not. I think the precedent for what to do with male channelers has already been set with Rand - i.e., they will be clan chiefs (almost a mirror image of the Wise Ones, where female channelers are forced to become Wise Ones, like it or not). The Aiel are as segregated by gender as the White Tower is, so I don't see them allowing male Wise Ones any more than I see them ever allowing males to be masters of the holds. Later, once the Aiel male channeling population has grown, they may start a separate group for channelers, both male and female, aside from Wise Ones and Clan Chiefs, but that would take a while.

As for training, they don't have much of a choice but to send the males to the BT to train. The Wise Ones cannot train the male channelers, so there's no other choice (unless they keep the tradition of sending them away, which seems unlikely). It would actually be kind of fitting if Logain instituted the affiliations Egwene was trying to force all female channelers into, only without the hidden agenda of trying to get them under his authority. Of course, he would want something in return for training their men, but offering that service would go a long way in creating good will between the BT and other groups.

suttree
02-18-2013, 10:27 PM
It would actually be kind of fitting if Logain instituted the affiliations Egwene was trying to force all female channelers into, only without the hidden agenda of trying to get them under his authority. Of course, he would want something in return for training their men, but offering that service would go a long way in creating good will between the BT and other groups.

There was noting in the channeler exchange program that gave the AS and unfair advantage in trying "get authority" over the other groups. Of course each channeling group would be jockeying for position within the framework of the deal, they would be remiss if not. This was acknowledged quiet clearly with the "play best" line. Regardless that reform will do more than any other to change the culture of the WT for the better. It is a good model for the men as well.

As for male channelers and training there are a number of scenarios in which people could train outside of the BT. Say for instance an Ashaman became warder to an AS or WO and then was able to train others away from the BT. It only takes one person to splinter off.

Cor Shan
02-19-2013, 03:44 AM
I think the precedent for what to do with male channelers has already been set with Rand - i.e., they will be clan chiefs (almost a mirror image of the Wise Ones, where female channelers are forced to become Wise Ones, like it or not).

Problem: There are more channeling WO than AS. There are around a thousand AS. Channeling is relatively equally distributed by gender. Therefore, there will grow to be ~2000 Aiel male channelers.

There are 11 clans (13 - Jenn - Shaido).

More likely it will be a new warrior society.

padfoot89
02-19-2013, 04:09 AM
And we know that Aviendha's sons will be born able to channel, and channel well right from birth.

Do we know why something exceptional like this would happen ? Or does this happen because the new pipe lighting Rand has mutant sperm ?

GonzoTheGreat
02-19-2013, 05:57 AM
As for male channelers and training there are a number of scenarios in which people could train outside of the BT. Say for instance an Ashaman became warder to an AS or WO and then was able to train others away from the BT. It only takes one person to splinter off.
The BT, founded by the Lord Dragon and headed by Logain the Sealbreaker is something people can sort of accept as "safe". But rogue male channelers who defy the authority of the BT might very well stir up some bad memories. So Logain kills your rogue Asha'man and hangs his head on the Traitor's Tree. What happens to your training schedules then?

Edited to add:
There's probably a couple of (former) male Dreadlords skulking around too, including some from Aiel ancestry. They too could set up independent training facilities. If the Aiel had to choose between them and Logain, which do you think they would prefer?

fionwe1987
02-19-2013, 10:05 AM
The BT, founded by the Lord Dragon and headed by Logain the Sealbreaker is something people can sort of accept as "safe". But rogue male channelers who defy the authority of the BT might very well stir up some bad memories. So Logain kills your rogue Asha'man and hangs his head on the Traitor's Tree. What happens to your training schedules then?
The moment Logain does that, the Aiel can swoop in with all the world's troops. They hold all the cards now, remember? Not that I think it would ever come to that. Logain may have issues, but he's not a total idiot. I doubt the Traitor's Tree will last very long.

Edited to add:
There's probably a couple of (former) male Dreadlords skulking around too, including some from Aiel ancestry. They too could set up independent training facilities. If the Aiel had to choose between them and Logain, which do you think they would prefer?
There's a difference between learning from the Asha'man and joining them.

SauceyBlueConfetti
02-19-2013, 10:15 AM
Do we know why something exceptional like this would happen ? Or does this happen because the new pipe lighting Rand has mutant sperm ?

Avi was pregnant before the body swap, so the sperm is pretty much the normal variety that impregnated Elayne. :rolleyes:

GonzoTheGreat
02-19-2013, 10:53 AM
Avi was pregnant before the body swap, so the sperm is pretty much the normal variety that impregnated Elayne. :rolleyes:
But she was impregnated after the Revelation on the Mound, which may very well have resulted in some differences in Rand. Perhaps that's why she is going to have Teenage Mutant Ninja Aiel as kids.

SauceyBlueConfetti
02-19-2013, 11:31 AM
But she was impregnated after the Revelation on the Mound, which may very well have resulted in some differences in Rand. Perhaps that's why she is going to have Teenage Mutant Ninja Aiel as kids.

Dunno. It might as easily have something to do with her extra/touching trip to Rhuidean, or the bond being affected by the body swap, or the trinity merge of the powers, or inadvertent compulsion exchange when battling Graendal, or Nakomi put a spell on her, etc.

SauceyBlueConfetti
02-19-2013, 11:33 AM
Question. No book with me.

Does Rand feel anything of the bond with the harem after the body swap? The girls feel HIM, yes, but does he actually reference feeling them?

GonzoTheGreat
02-19-2013, 11:33 AM
Dunno. It might as easily have something to do with her extra/touching trip to Rhuidean, or the bond being affected by the body swap, or the trinity merge of the powers, or inadvertent compulsion exchange when battling Graendal, or Nakomi put a spell on her, etc.
Rand definitely should've had a bigger harem to distinguish between all these possible causes.

mogi67
02-19-2013, 12:52 PM
Dunno. It might as easily have something to do with her extra/touching trip to Rhuidean, or the bond being affected by the body swap, or the trinity merge of the powers, or inadvertent compulsion exchange when battling Graendal, or Nakomi put a spell on her, etc.

dude it's like dragonball z when Goku/Vegeta get a woman preggers after turning Super Saiyan and then when the kids are born they can transform when they're like 6 years old :cool:

GonzoTheGreat
02-19-2013, 01:09 PM
Does Rand feel anything of the bond with the harem after the body swap? The girls feel HIM, yes, but does he actually reference feeling them?
Based on what I could get from rereading those bits just now: dunno.
Which, admittedly, is not much of an improvement over your unsourced "dunno" in this regard.

SauceyBlueConfetti
02-19-2013, 04:22 PM
Based on what I could get from rereading those bits just now: dunno.
Which, admittedly, is not much of an improvement over your unsourced "dunno" in this regard.

heh. Unsourced Dunno. Yep, my answer is to give as many unrealistic scenarios as possible to point out yours has no backup either. ;)