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GonzoTheGreat
02-20-2013, 07:51 AM
We know that we did not see all that was going on during the big battle. We saw some of the fights that made up that whole, but by no means all. Which raises the question:
Apart from the five* that we# know of, how many more duels did Demandred fight that day?

* Gawyn, Galad, Logain, Taim and Lan. When I started this post, I hadn't remember Logain and Taim, so I have to change the count (twice).

# I. See previous note. I may very well have forgotten one or two.

Rand al'Fain
02-21-2013, 03:30 AM
Didn't he have a small army with him at all times?

Also, it sounded like Gawyn was the first to challenge him.

If there were more, they were off screen.

Oneirist
02-22-2013, 06:57 PM
If the confrontation between him and Taim can be counted, I guess you could include his fight with those Aes Sedai and Asha'man on the Heights, the only named ones being Kwamesa and Einar. And he mentioned having Shendla watching out for more assassins after Gawyn, in addition to having two dozen Ayyad nearby. It didn't seem as if anyone else struck at his position on the Heights, which I suppose makes sense, given pretty much all the Aes Sedai and Asha'man were occupied with the Ayyad and Dreadlords, and the Seanchan were occupied with doing nothing.

<being rant> It pains me to say it, but those three sword duels seemed progressively more ludicrous. I can understand Gawyn reaching Demandred, given the Bloodknives, but Demandred not being fast enough to dispatch him with the Power yet being fast enough with the sword?

Galad and Lan both had the same flawed copy of the original medallion, which Elayne was specifically warning could not block a strong weave. Yet Galad was pretty much striding around butchering Ayyad, nevermind the fact that they're flinging lightning and blowing up the earth everywhere else on the same battlefield. And both of them running through the entire enemy camp and not being smoked, turned into a pincushion by archers, etc., was absolutely mind-boggling. Take a moment and entertain how absurd that was: Two obvious, lone enemies come charging through the whole camp, straight toward the command center filled with their unarmed lords and ladies and their messiah, after an assassin had just attacked.

Finally, when they reached Demandred, he could only attack them with his sword because they're too close. Nevermind that he saw Lan coming and could've blown up the earth and his horse or struck him with lightning. Nevermind that even with Sakarnen, he's almost as strong as it's possible to be and should be able to easily overload the medallion. Or that he could throw objects at him with the Power or blast him with rocks from the ground the way the supergirls did for those Whitecloaks back in the day, or the way Egwene fought against the Black Ajah and Myrddraal during her Accepted test--saying they're too close and he can't do it fast enough doesn't cut it when Egwene was just pulling up rods of metal from the earth fast enough to counter lightning, and Teslyn was fast enough to save Mat and smack around the gholam. Or even that he had access to the True Power making all of the aforementioned completely irrelevant. And then Lan can get up and cut the head of the Sharans' messiah, for whom they had just been literally flinging themselves in front of fireballs, and strut around with it. </end rant>

Cortar
02-22-2013, 07:56 PM
Galad and Lan both had the same flawed copy of the original medallion, which Elayne was specifically warning could not block a strong weave. Yet Galad was pretty much striding around butchering Ayyad, nevermind the fact that they're flinging lightning and blowing up the earth everywhere else on the same battlefield.

To be fair, as a channeller seeing a non channeller with a sword. Your immediate reaction isn't probably to blast him at full strength, especially while trying to reserve your energy.



Finally, when they reached Demandred, he could only attack them with his sword because they're too close. Nevermind that he saw Lan coming and could've blown up the earth and his horse or struck him with lightning.

Dude, Demandred was obviously very crazy. He also thought he was the best swordsman ever. These two things makes for double the crazyman.


And then Lan can get up and cut the head of the Sharans' messiah, for whom they had just been literally flinging themselves in front of fireballs, and strut around with it. </end rant>

Shock.

Bane Darkwulf
02-22-2013, 10:12 PM
Nevermind that even with Sakarnen, he's almost as strong as it's possible to be and should be able to easily overload the medallion.

Has there ever been a point where a Ter'Angreal has gotten overloaded doing it's basic job with no outside influences(ie: when Egwene took her Test to become Accepted she had the stone ring Ter'Angreal)?

Res_Ipsa
02-22-2013, 11:59 PM
Since the thread is here, I wanted to discuss something. In "The Last Battle" chapter, Gawyn's POV reads: "That proud face was eerily familiar to Gawyn, handsome and imperious."

Obviously we know where Demandred's focus was. But was it ever figured out where he had been seen before? Based on the above quote, I think it can be narrowed down to Gawyn's limited POVs throughout the series.

GonzoTheGreat
02-23-2013, 05:03 AM
Galad and Lan both had the same flawed copy of the original medallion, which Elayne was specifically warning could not block a strong weave.
Of course, that was only really tested on saidar, not on saidin. Not sure that does make a difference, but it is an important fact to keep in mind.
Mat worried at some point whether or not his medaillon would protect him from men, or only from women.

Since the thread is here, I wanted to discuss something. In "The Last Battle" chapter, Gawyn's POV reads: "That proud face was eerily familiar to Gawyn, handsome and imperious."
In TEOTW, "handsome" is often used, for men and women. But "imperious" is used only once. To describe Thom Merrilin in his first appearance. Gawyn, of course, would've seen the fellow last years ago, and would probably only have vague memories of his face.
Though Thom does stretch the "alter ego not seen directly" a bit, I'll admit.

Weird Harold
02-23-2013, 09:26 AM
Has there ever been a point where a Ter'Angreal has gotten overloaded doing it's basic job with no outside influences(ie: when Egwene took her Test to become Accepted she had the stone ring Ter'Angreal)?

The Key to the Female Chodean Kal at the Cleansing.

Weird Harold
02-23-2013, 09:41 AM
Since the thread is here, I wanted to discuss something. In "The Last Battle" chapter, Gawyn's POV reads: "That proud face was eerily familiar to Gawyn, handsome and imperious."

Perhaps this is related to Gawyn's inexplicable hatred of Rand based on a "merchant's report" that Rand had killed Morgase?

That wouldn't be an instance where the readers had seen Demandred or one of Gawyn's POVs, but it would be a place where Gawyn might have encountered Demandred and been made to forget.

GonzoTheGreat
02-23-2013, 10:20 AM
The Key to the Female Chodean Kal at the Cleansing.
And the Bowl of the Winds when that was used beyond its design specifications.

Perhaps this is related to Gawyn's inexplicable hatred of Rand based on a "merchant's report" that Rand had killed Morgase?

That wouldn't be an instance where the readers had seen Demandred or one of Gawyn's POVs, but it would be a place where Gawyn might have encountered Demandred and been made to forget.
Now that is a very good, and seemingly original, idea.

Just about the only problem with it is that if Demandred had gone that far out of his way to seek out Gawyn, then he would have recognized Gawyn during their fight.
Of course, during the Cleansing Demandred seemingly also forgot that he'd seen Damer Flinn whom he'd seen while he was still Taimandred, so Demandred does have known memory issues ...

Weird Harold
02-23-2013, 11:35 AM
Just about the only problem with it is that if Demandred had gone that far out of his way to seek out Gawyn, then he would have recognized Gawyn during their fight.


Would Gawyn have been recognizable under the blurring effect of three blood-rings?

GonzoTheGreat
02-23-2013, 11:58 AM
Would Gawyn have been recognizable under the blurring effect of three blood-rings?
Uhr ...
I had definitely not forgotten about that.

That's even better than Taimandred's walking tree.

Res_Ipsa
02-24-2013, 12:11 AM
Would Gawyn have been recognizable under the blurring effect of three blood-rings?

Well once Gawyn told Demandred his name, Demandred recognized him as the Queen of Andor's brother. That struck me as odd as someone who spent alot of time in Shara knowing what his name meant.

Rand al'Fain
02-24-2013, 03:56 AM
Well once Gawyn told Demandred his name, Demandred recognized him as the Queen of Andor's brother. That struck me as odd as someone who spent alot of time in Shara knowing what his name meant.

Well, it's not like it was a secret, or even that hard to find out. Just ask some random Andoran or merchant who goes through there quite a bit and you'll hear about them.

Weird Harold
02-24-2013, 09:26 AM
Well once Gawyn told Demandred his name, Demandred recognized him as the Queen of Andor's brother. That struck me as odd as someone who spent alot of time in Shara knowing what his name meant.
Gawyn was technically the hereditary commander of Andor's armies. He would have been part of any briefing on the political/military structure in Andor after Morgase's disappearance.

I'm not surprised that Demandred knew him by name, but that doesn't mean that Demandred knew him by sight and the blurring effect of the rings would have made that a moot point.

Tollingtoy
02-24-2013, 10:39 AM
Wasn't Demandred spotted in TAR in the Andoran throne room? Also, he was initially involved with Taim and the Black Tower, which is also in Andor. It's not strange at all that he would know who Gawyn was.

Enigma
02-24-2013, 11:25 AM
Given that Demandred was to be the field commander for the Shadow's armies its not unreasonable for him to be briefed on the military leaders who might be arranged against him. Gawyn is one of the higher ranking nobles in Andor which is the most powerful nation in Randland. Demandred probably knew a bit about all the major military leaders of the light.

Not to mention he was also a tool in the White Tower coup and while that was Messana's gig she was allied with Demandred and Semirhage so she may have mentiond him once or twice.

GonzoTheGreat
02-24-2013, 12:10 PM
Why did he refer to him as Elayne's brother rather than as Egwene's lapdog?
And why didn't he even consider the possibility that Egwene might be lurking around the corner?

fionwe1987
02-24-2013, 12:39 PM
And why didn't he even consider the possibility that Egwene might be lurking around the corner?
That's pretty obvious. He had a falcon periodically checking out the battlefield. He must have known that the Amyrlin was busy kicking Sharan butt with her sa'angreal.

GonzoTheGreat
02-24-2013, 01:01 PM
He must also have known that Egwene could Travel. And that she was capable of locating her Warder with a fair degree of accuracy.

Bane Darkwulf
02-25-2013, 09:33 PM
He must also have known that Egwene could Travel. And that she was capable of locating her Warder with a fair degree of accuracy.

Why did he refer to him as Elayne's brother rather than as Egwene's lapdog?
And why didn't he even consider the possibility that Egwene might be lurking around the corner?

Did he know that he was Egwene's Warder? Does he even know what a Warder is? As far as I can tell, only a few people know aout her even HAVING a Warder, and the Forsaken, other than Messana, might not know all that much about the Warder bond.

Also, WH, the Female Key could be stated to have outside influence acting upon it, in the form of the male key. or it could have been just the fact that so much power went through it at one time that it melted. Either way, it had an outside influence or it was overloaded. Overloading something is not a part of the basic function. over loading takes it out of it's territory into a different area, past it's specs. you wouldn't take a street car onto a racetrack straight from the dealership, The other factor you have to look at is Sadin. Rand was using Saidar to control Sadin. He could have created a eedback like what happened to the male Chodan Kal when he destroyed it.

fionwe1987
02-25-2013, 09:56 PM
?

Did he know that he was Egwene's Warder? Does he even know what a Warder is? As far as I can tell, only a few people know aout her even HAVING a Warder, and the Forsaken, other than Messana, might not know all that much about the Warder bond.
He tells Taim that Egwene should be an easy enemy since he (Demandred) had killed her Warder.

With a relaxed sense of inevitability, Demandred stood. He gave off the impression of a massive boulder shifting its position. “You will return and kill her, M’Hael. I have slain her Warder. She should be easy meat.”

Also, WH, the Female Key could be stated to have outside influence acting upon it, in the form of the male key. or it could have been just the fact that so much power went through it at one time that it melted. Either way, it had an outside influence or it was overloaded. Overloading something is not a part of the basic function. over loading takes it out of it's territory into a different area, past it's specs. you wouldn't take a street car onto a racetrack straight from the dealership, The other factor you have to look at is Sadin. Rand was using Saidar to control Sadin. He could have created a eedback like what happened to the male Chodan Kal when he destroyed it.

It did in fact go beyond specs:

Amazing that the Choedan Kal had survived continuous use for this long, at this level.

That's Moghedien's opinion, BTW.

Weird Harold
02-25-2013, 10:49 PM
Also, WH, the Female Key could be stated to have outside influence acting upon it, in the form of the male key. or it could have been just the fact that so much power went through it at one time that it melted. Either way, it had an outside influence or it was overloaded.


The CK keys--note the plural--were (probably) designed to be used in a circle. At worst, each key was designed to provide as much power as a single channeler could handle. Nyneave isn't a top-five-percentile channeler, it should have been able to handle her maximum load.


Also, every example of a female CK key we've seen has failed in some way. That suggests that the keys are faulty and don't meet minimum design specifications; that is they fail when used in the manner in which they were designed to be used.

(I don't recall whether we've seen two or three female CK keys. Only one was functional at the time we saw it.)

fionwe1987
02-26-2013, 01:27 AM
Nyneave isn't a top-five-percentile channeler,

Come again?

GonzoTheGreat
02-26-2013, 05:14 AM
Nyneave isn't a top-five-percentile channeler, it should have been able to handle her maximum load.
Come again?
It is intuitively obvious to the most casual reader. Of the 600 or so AS in the WT, over thirty were stronger than Nynaeve.
Or something like that, at least. Maybe WH would be willing to provide some further clarification.


Also, every example of a female CK key we've seen has failed in some way. That suggests that the keys are faulty and don't meet minimum design specifications; that is they fail when used in the manner in which they were designed to be used.
They were never used in the manner they were designed to be used, though. They had been made specifically to build a barrier around the DO, and they were never used for that.
For all we know, the broking access key in Tanchico was the one that had been used in the destruction of Manetheren.

(I don't recall whether we've seen two or three female CK keys. Only one was functional at the time we saw it.)
As far as I can remember, the only ones we saw are those that Rand had and the one in Tanchico that was broken.

Daekyras
02-26-2013, 10:44 AM
Of the 600 or so AS in the WT, over thirty were stronger than Nynaeve.

This is all subjective but I would say that Nynaeve is in the top 10 of all the female channelers we have encountered.

Lanfear/Alivia/Sharina are stronger than her for definite but then...

Weird Harold
02-26-2013, 10:59 AM
Come again?

This is all subjective but I would say that Nynaeve is in the top 10 of all the female channelers we have encountered.

Lanfear/Alivia/Sharina are stronger than her for definite but then...


Nyneave was explicitly established as "Forsaken Strength" by her duel with Moghedian; the weakest of the Forsaken. Since that duel, many other women were noted as stronger than Nyneave.

"Forsaken Strength" is generally rated as the top four levels of RJ's 21 level scale, or the top twenty percent or so. Nyneave is top twenty, possibly top fifteen, but not in the same top five percent grouping as Lanfear, Cyndane, Talaan, Alivia, et al.

Davian93
02-26-2013, 12:54 PM
"Forsaken Strength" is generally rated as the top four levels of RJ's 21 level scale, or the top twenty percent or so. Nyneave is top twenty, possibly top fifteen, but not in the same top five percent grouping as Lanfear, Cyndane, Talaan, Alivia, et al.


I think you're forgetting that the strength scale resembles a bell curve more than a equal distribution...so being in the top 4 levels puts her significantly higher than the top 20% of channelers.

Weird Harold
02-26-2013, 01:21 PM
I think you're forgetting that the strength scale resembles a bell curve more than a equal distribution...so being in the top 4 levels puts her significantly higher than the top 20% of channelers.

The scale itself is linear, although you're correct that the distribution of channelers is a bell curve.

For the purpose of my original argument, Nyneave is far from being as-strong-as-it-is-possible-for-a-woman-to-be and that should have been far below the threshold of ability needed to overload a device intended to provide the maximum possible access to Saidar through the CK.

Maybe Lanfear or Sharina Malloy could draw enough to draw beyoond design specifications, but the Key should not have melted for anything less.

Davian93
02-26-2013, 01:29 PM
although you're correct that the distribution of channelers is a bell curve.


That's all I meant. Thus, its likely that Nynaeve is closer to the 95th Percentile of female channelers than the 80th as you were suggesting.

Lord Narg
02-26-2013, 02:09 PM
Hmm, I think you might underestimating how rare strong channelers are. I had a look at the saidar strength ranking at the Thirteenth Depository and Nynaeve has 4 channelers above her and ~150 below her, putting her at the 97th percentile among the named female channelers. Note that high strength channelers are much more likely to be mentioned by name. In fact, aren't there ~1000 full Aes Sedai, of whom Nynaeve is the strongest? So, among all she's probably at least 99% and could be even 99.9%.

I think it's quite possible that all female access keys had a flaw in them. As we know, Choedan Kal had never been tested, so the AS creators had no chance to fix any potential flaws in the keys or the sa'angrial itself.

Edit: I can't count, it's 4 above...

Weird Harold
02-26-2013, 04:27 PM
Hmm, I think you might underestimating how rare strong channelers are. I had a look at the saidar strength ranking at the Thirteenth Depository and Nynaeve has 4 channelers above her and ~150 below her, putting her at the 97th percentile among the named female channelers.

I misspoke when I used "percentile" when what I meant was "percentage of theoretical maximum."

Nyneave is very strong, but at her 80-85% power level, it wouldn't matter if there were NO named channelers above her, the Access Key would have been designed to safely handle more than Nyneave could draw.

fionwe1987
02-26-2013, 04:37 PM
Nyneave was explicitly established as "Forsaken Strength" by her duel with Moghedian; the weakest of the Forsaken. Since that duel, many other women were noted as stronger than Nyneave.
Since that duel, Nynaeve herself has grown in strength, and in WH was explicitly shown to be as strong as Talaan, and weaker than Alivia. We know that Sharina has greater potential than Nynaeve, but with respect to women like Alivia and Cyndane, we don't really know where they stand with respect to Nynaeve's strength as of the end of WH. We don't even know when or if Nynaeve reached her full potential, though we can argue that she was probably forced to full potential by using the CK for so long at such strength.

From Sanderson, we know that Nynaeve is at least as strong as Semirhage, who is stronger than Mesaana, and we're not sure with respect to Graendal. Nynaeve could be as strong as Graendal, or stronger as well. What we do know is that strength at Graendal's level and above is incredibly rare, as she says herself in tPoD.

One way or another, Nynaeve is certainly above the 95th percentile of channelers.
"Forsaken Strength" is generally rated as the top four levels of RJ's 21 level scale, or the top twenty percent or so. Nyneave is top twenty, possibly top fifteen, but not in the same top five percent grouping as Lanfear, Cyndane, Talaan, Alivia, et al.

That's no how it works. There are many more women at mid level strength than in the upper ranges. Its doubtful if even Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha are at 80th percentile. They're likely higher, as even at their strength they'd have been pretty damn rare in the AoL.

Lord Narg
02-26-2013, 04:49 PM
I misspoke when I used "percentile" when what I meant was "percentage of theoretical maximum."

Nyneave is very strong, but at her 80-85% power level, it wouldn't matter if there were NO named channelers above her, the Access Key would have been designed to safely handle more than Nyneave could draw.

Ah, indeed the access key surely is designed to handle what Nynaeve can draw and more. After all, Lanfear herself was quite keen to use one. Of course it's quite possible that the keys had faults unknown to AoL Aes Sedai.

In terms of power level, I think that BS (or RJ?) confirmed that the levels were not linear. Going one level up could mean access to 20%-30% more Power, so Lanfear could maybe control twice as much as Nynaeve, or more.

Weird Harold
02-26-2013, 05:47 PM
Ah, indeed the access key surely is designed to handle what Nynaeve can draw and more. After all, Lanfear herself was quite keen to use one. Of course it's quite possible that the keys had faults unknown to AoL Aes Sedai.

Since the whole "Nyneave is uber-powerful" tangent started as a result of the question, "Has there ever been a point where a Ter'Angreal has gotten overloaded doing it's basic job with no outside influences?" The bottom line is that the CK Key is a ter'angreal that was overloaded doing what it was designed to do--and should have been able to handle even more.

The CK sa'angreal and the keys thereto were designed to be used in a circle, so the presence of Saidin in the weave shouldn't have been a problem. The key should have been able to handle more Saidar than Nyneave could, so that shouldn't have presented a problem either.

The most probable cause of failure, as you and others have pointed out, was a manufacturing defect. Which is relevant to to ter'angreal Gawyn wore, which was made by Elayne and had a known defect of being vulnerable to overload by a strong weave. Whether Mat's original medallion is also susceptible to overload is never specified directly--although making a distinction suggests it isn't.

Demandred could easily have overloaded Gawyn's medallion if Elayne could generate a strong enough weave to reveal the flaw. The reason he didn't is that Demandred didn't know he was facing a flawed medallion and didn't try to overload it.



In terms of power level, I think that BS (or RJ?) confirmed that the levels were not linear. Going one level up could mean access to 20%-30% more Power, so Lanfear could maybe control twice as much as Nynaeve, or more.

I don't believe I've ever seen that particular assertion from an authoritative source. If it is the case, it just makes my point stronger--the access key should have been able to take anything Nyneave could, with capacity to spare.

neurotopia
02-26-2013, 06:13 PM
It's also possible that the design itself was just inferior, no matter what the intent, and Latra Posae's plan would've failed within hours of trying to secure the Bore using the CK.

Or, the Wheel took this as an opportunity to signal some "Pattern-level event" and just melted the damn thing.

GonzoTheGreat
02-27-2013, 05:16 AM
There is another issue which you lot are overlooking: saidin and saidar.

The male access key was also used. As Nisain Sedai said (CoT, Chapter 19, Surprises): "There was more saidin used than saidar, much more, Dragonmount beside a foothill."
Yet the male access key was not broken.

Maybe an earlier attempt to cleanse saidin had been made, and failed.

fionwe1987
02-27-2013, 09:33 AM
There is another issue which you lot are overlooking: saidin and saidar.

The male access key was also used. As Nisain Sedai said (CoT, Chapter 19, Surprises): "There was more saidin used than saidar, much more, Dragonmount beside a foothill."
Yet the male access key was not broken.

Maybe an earlier attempt to cleanse saidin had been made, and failed.

More saidin was used because all of saidin passed through that tube of saidar. And that probably explains why the female sa'angreal broke. It was used to make a weave that was under constant strain.

Weird Harold
02-28-2013, 04:31 PM
I'm not surprised that Demandred knew him by name, but that doesn't mean that Demandred knew him by sight and the blurring effect of the rings would have made that a moot point.

Demandred did NOT recognize Gawyn; he had to ask him who he was:

“Who are you, little man?” Demandred growled, walking back with sword raised at his side. “You fight well.”

“Gawyn Trakand.”

“The little queen’s brother,” Demandred said. “You realize who I am.”

Linda
03-04-2013, 04:28 AM
The Bowl of Winds was another ter'angreal strained beyond its specs.

Cortar
03-04-2013, 05:19 AM
More saidin was used because all of saidin passed through that tube of saidar. And that probably explains why the female sa'angreal broke. It was used to make a weave that was under constant strain.

To add to this point, ALL of Saidin was used, and if I remember correctly, once Rand started the funneling, it continued on its own force, probably lessening the strain on the access key, while Saidar did not have this lessening and was subjected to the full force the entire time.

Also another possibility is that since men can naturally hold more power than women, then Saidar was never meant to be channeled so much, so rawly like it was.

Weird Harold
03-04-2013, 10:32 AM
The Bowl of Winds was another ter'angreal strained beyond its specs.
True, but not one that was "stressed to failure."

TBotW survived being stressed at the Kin's Farm to be used again at Thakan'dar for T'G.

GonzoTheGreat
03-04-2013, 11:13 AM
TBotW survived being stressed at the Kin's Farm to be used again at Thakan'dar for T'G.
Which brings up the question: how did anyone know that that would be where it would be needed most?

Weird Harold
03-04-2013, 12:14 PM
Which brings up the question: how did anyone know that that would be where it would be needed most?
Storms on the other battlefields only cost the Light an army. Storms at Thakan'dar cost T'G.

GonzoTheGreat
03-04-2013, 12:36 PM
Storms on the other battlefields only cost the Light an army. Storms at Thakan'dar cost T'G.
Sort of true, but only if the Shadow would have been able to move through a storm that the forces of Light couldn't stay put in. Which doesn't seem too likely.
Gateways would have been a fairly obvious and simple alternative, allowing the troops to move into and out of areas according to how bad the weather was.

The Unreasoner
03-04-2013, 01:57 PM
Sort of true, but only if the Shadow would have been able to move through a storm that the forces of Light couldn't stay put in. Which doesn't seem too likely.

I disagree, here. If the DO could kill everything in Thakan'dar with a storm, he would have. Trollocs, red-veils, and even Graendal are all expendable. Even if he couldn't kill with a storm, if he could immobilize everyone Rand couldn;t get to SG.
Gateways would have been a fairly obvious and simple alternative, allowing the troops to move into and out of areas according to how bad the weather was.Traveling reliably in Shayol Ghul while the world is falling apart might be impossible. And if the storm is bad enough to make you want to move elsewhere, odds are it will be bad enough to make seeing areas that are safe (if they even exist) impossible too.


ETA:
Now, there is still the question of whether or not the storms were a big enough threat to justify the resources committed to stopping them. But considering the power previously demonstrated by the Bowl, my guess would be yes.

Dom
03-04-2013, 03:29 PM
Which brings up the question: how did anyone know that that would be where it would be needed most?

The larger "Storm", which was reflected in the weather but bigger than this was the effect of the Pattern and the DO clashing, and Rand has figured out it would be at its worst at SG as he confronted the DO, thus his ordering the SF to use the Bowl to hold the weather there.

The Coramoor vs. the Father of Storms aspect was barely brushed on in AMOL (Rand reflects on the storm in one scene, and the reference to the Coramoor and BotW to hold off that storm isn't even explicit - the whole SF stuff was essentially pushed off-screen).

GonzoTheGreat
03-05-2013, 03:45 AM
I disagree, here. If the DO could kill everything in Thakan'dar with a storm, he would have. Trollocs, red-veils, and even Graendal are all expendable. Even if he couldn't kill with a storm, if he could immobilize everyone Rand couldn;t get to SG.
Traveling reliably in Shayol Ghul while the world is falling apart might be impossible. And if the storm is bad enough to make you want to move elsewhere, odds are it will be bad enough to make seeing areas that are safe (if they even exist) impossible too.
But the storm didn't start until after Rand had entered, because only then did the DO know that messing up his own front court might be useful.


The Coramoor vs. the Father of Storms aspect was barely brushed on in AMOL (Rand reflects on the storm in one scene, and the reference to the Coramoor and BotW to hold off that storm isn't even explicit - the whole SF stuff was essentially pushed off-screen).
This, though, is a very good point. It does sort of raise the question of why no males were included in the link with the Bowl, seeing as how that thing also drew saidin.

Dom
03-05-2013, 10:43 AM
This, though, is a very good point. It does sort of raise the question of why no males were included in the link with the Bowl, seeing as how that thing also drew saidin.

The whole thing was dealt with "book ends" style. One scene with Harine's return early in TGS and then the Bowl through the LB. In between a deal with Egwene that we see her almost wishing she had not included them.

I wonder if it's not the result of lack of more specific notes. RJ too was very economical with the SF/Coramoor stuff. I tend to think he would have woven in more background stuff along the way, especially since the Storm became a central motif in the finale. The way the matter of the three aspects of Rand as Dragon, Car'a'carn and Coramoor was dealt with in the finale was a bit underdeveloped and being relegated too much to the background it was not fully satisfying. Merrilor and Aviendha concluded the Aiel arc better, with a new incarnation of their "old places" as peacekeepers (which they couldn't hold symbolically in the early fourth Age as their ancestors in the peaceful AOL could). The SF stuff, though, was really underdeveloped.

The development I would have liked to see in the finale is to have the SF, with their keen sense of their own interests, turn into the first group to understand the future belongs to those who will master mixed gender work (and that this would for a while offset the power of the WT), and to have Harine return with Zaida's answer to Rand's demand they stop sending their male channellers to death: she agreed but she doesn't want to send them to the BT, she wants Rand to commit a few Asha'man to find and train SF men for as long as the SF don't have trained male teachers of their own. Of course among the SF most candidates for learning would be found in the Windfinders's lines. It would open whole new opportunities for a culture that sooner than later would market the services of its channellers, which Zaida did for the first time with Elayne. The SF are very specialized in Air and Water, the female flows, their male channellers would have to develop new areas of expertise as strength in Air and Water would be rare among them.

It could have been an "hidden development" Egwene would have been unaware of when she included the SF in her alliance of female channellers (interesting mostly since one goal, or sale pitch for her alliance was to hold off the growing power of the BT). The SF would have agreed to her alliance... only to have concluded another with Rand and the Asha'man in her back.

The Asha'man "teachers" themselves would have provided a few men for the BotW in TG, perhaps with one or two more advanced SF recruits.

It would not have been much, a few more scenes that would have provided the opportunity to establish a bit more strongly the Coramoor vs. Father of Storms aspect, and to give a bit more layers/complexity to the post-TG portrait (economically, since this all end up open ended anyway).

But to return to your question, I suspect the explanation is that what RJ left to Brandon for the role of the SF might have been fairly sketchy (some of the developments might have appeared only in draft Egwene dialogue RJ had left, etc.) or Brandon didn't find space or opportunities to really develop it and weave it in à la RJ (just one scene!), and he left it at the inclusion of a few key points noted by RJ (the Harine scene in TGS feels a lot like set up, something Brandon put there with the intent to return to it in TOM or AMOL but then forgot). The whole matter of the Bowl drawing saidin and getting overworked sound indeed like big hooks, and if Rand's demand the SF stopped sending male sparkers to their death was from RJ's notes, there was probably a link there RJ meant to somehow exploit. There also seem to be a few "revelations"/precisions about the content of the Jendai Prophecies missing. RJ made them the most "mysterious" as the SF told little about them, but an Harine POV during the finale that revealed a few of its secrets would have been interesting. Did the return of the BotW to the SF fit in, was there anything in there about the WT, etc.

GonzoTheGreat
03-05-2013, 11:27 AM
The Asha'man "teachers" themselves would have provided a few men for the BotW in TG, perhaps with one or two more advanced SF recruits.
I'm not sure there would have been any such Asha'man teachers if they first spoke to any AS teachers.

That seems a very big disadvantage for the SF: their culture strongly discourages competent outside teachers from instructing them, leaving them only with those who are not good enough to find another place, or those desperate for whatever reason to get off the land so they can spend time hiding while whoever is looking for them gives up.

Consider for instance the Academies that Rand has set up all over the place: maybe someone from there will enlist to teach the SF once, but after that word will spread and no one else will make that mistake for a long time.

Daekyras
03-06-2013, 06:59 AM
"Lets end this farce, little man" Demandred Sneered.

Enraged, Gawyn rushed forward in a tempest(;)) of sword strokes. Demandred met each with a nonchalant counter that Gawyn barely recognised.

Finally, boar rushes down the hill was met with a form he had never seen before-
iron bit into flesh and the prince cried out.

Gawyn's Sword fell from his numb fingers as Demandred slowly withdrew his own weapon from his body. Distantly, he was aware of the fear and anguish Egwene was feeling. He did not try to send her love or comfort as he is a complete dick.

As Demandred turns to walk away the Amyrlin's warder reaches out and grabs at his armour.

"wha...What was that sword form called?"

Demandred didn't turn as he replied "Bitch dies like a pussy."

I would like this to have happened for real. :)

neurotopia
03-06-2013, 08:16 PM
Jesus there are tears running down my face at that... holy hell...

GonzoTheGreat
03-07-2013, 04:07 AM
I would like this to have happened for real. :)
It is very unrealistic. Demandred learned his skills in a civilized time. He would not ever have used such a politically incorrect form.

Daekyras
03-24-2014, 08:05 AM
"Lets end this farce, little man" Demandred Sneered.

Enraged, Gawyn rushed forward in a tempest(!) of sword strokes. Demandred met each with a nonchalant counter that Gawyn barely recognised.

Finally, boar rushes down the hill was met with a form he had never seen before-
iron bit into flesh and the prince cried out.

Gawyn's Sword fell from his numb fingers as Demandred slowly withdrew his own weapon from his body. Distantly, he was aware of the fear and anguish Egwene was feeling. He did not try to send her love or comfort as he is a complete dick.

As Demandred turns to walk away the Amyrlin's warder reaches out and grabs at his armour.

"wha...What was that sword form called?"

Demandred didn't turn as he replied "Bitch dies like a pussy."

I forgot I wrote this. I still hate Gawyn