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Bane Darkwulf
02-20-2013, 02:57 PM
It makes sense to me Mat not being the Hornsounder for the Last Battle, Why would he take a demotion?

He sounded the horn back in book 2, a good 2 years ago in series. He has since became a general for the Band, which gave him the personal experience of leading a combined forces military; the Prince of Ravens, basically only answerable to the Empress of Seandar; the Rodholder, the second in command of the Seanchan forces; then the General of the seanchan forces, due to Fortuona handing him that leadership role when he demanded it; and, finally, the Supreme Commander of the Forces o Light.

Hornsounder is a position you give to a junior member of the Military, basically the guy who relays orders to the troops through combinations of blasts on his horn, so they can be heard over the sound of battle. Oliver is the most junior member of the Band, being only about 10-12 years old, and hasn't even finished his "basic training" yet, as he still has plans on learning from other sources.

I'm not too surprised at Mat not being the Hornsounder, and I am glad it turned out to be someone that Mat can trust implicitly.

Rand al'Fain
02-21-2013, 03:08 AM
Uh, what? Being the Hornsounder is not a military rank. It's given to a person who blows the horn to call the legendary heroes to battle. An ace in the hole, if you will. And Mat's connection seems to have been disconnected at one of 2 points during the series, either when Rahvin zaps him with the lightning, or when he is hung at Rhuidean. Thereby nullifying his tie to the horn and paving the way for Olliver to sound it.

Plus, there is a reason why the horn was tossed into the ocean, it was so no one else (at least until the next time it is needed) can use it's power to forge their own empire.

Daekyras
02-21-2013, 09:23 AM
Uh, what? Being the Hornsounder is not a military rank. It's given to a person who blows the horn to call the legendary heroes to battle. An ace in the hole, if you will. And Mat's connection seems to have been disconnected at one of 2 points during the series, either when Rahvin zaps him with the lightning, or when he is hung at Rhuidean. Thereby nullifying his tie to the horn and paving the way for Olliver to sound it.
.

THe original poster already knew that.

Bane Darkwulf
02-21-2013, 09:43 AM
No, Hornsouder was not a rank, but a billet. A job. The general didn't sound the horn, he gave the order to sound the horn.

Dom
02-21-2013, 12:00 PM
No, Hornsouder was not a rank, but a billet. A job. The general didn't sound the horn, he gave the order to sound the horn.

*shrugs*. In most of the old legends about magical Horns that inspired RJ with the Horn of Valere, it's in the hands of the Hero/leader who sounds it to summons his men or armies to him.

For the ending, RJ switched from Celtic/Norse myth and folklore that mostly inspired him for the first use of the Horn in TGH (aside from Bornhald/WC's involvement and their crushing defeat, which already alludes to the epic poem) to La Chanson de Roland, in which the Horn is sounded by someone in the rear guard, and again it's actually two very important knights of Charlemagne, leaders of those armies, not quite subalterns.

The Falme episode was rather inspired, mostly, by the clash at the first arrival of the Tuatha Dé Danaan to Ireland.

RJ gave us a last big clue it was all linked to Faile and Olver by killing off her "not too shiny knight" Rolan, who in the epic poem is the one who refuse to sound the Horn at his friend the knight Olivier's demand (he thought it dishonorable to call for help instead of facing his fate as a warrior). After Oliver dies, a wounded Roland finally sounds the horn to warn the vanguard the Sarrasins were attacking the rearguard, but it's too late and he dies. It happens too late to save the Count (it could be where RJ took his idea to sever Mat from the Horn by killing him, and his whole misgiving about being the one to sound the Horn again), but it brings Charlemagne's arrival and revenge on the Sarrasins, as God's Army.

Olver sounding the Horn had far less to do with "not demoting Mat" than it had to do with the one sounding the Horn acting of a pure desire for salvation. Mat has evolved a great deal since his naive self in TGH, and would have sounded the Horn thinking he had to rather than of salvation. Olver fit the bill of the naive, pure soul sounding the Horn with pure faith in salvation than the far more calculating and even cynical (and most often very reluctant) late series Mat.

Tsofu
02-23-2013, 01:03 AM
While I found Olver an engaging and well chosen horn sounder, my issue is with tossing it in the sea. It seems to me a more logical choice to have placed it in the care of the Ogier. None could wield the OP in a steading and the horn could have been moved from steading to steading, in order to keep its actual location secret, plus with their long lives and longer memories, the horn would have been locatable when the time came for its next use.

Just a thought

Tsofu

GonzoTheGreat
02-23-2013, 05:22 AM
If that were known, then someone would get the bright idea of retrieving it from wherever it was. All it would take was a captive Ogier and the willingness to use torture (and maybe some more captive Ogier if the first doesn't know enough), followed by a raid on the right Stedding.

SauceyBlueConfetti
02-23-2013, 03:01 PM
While I found Olver an engaging and well chosen horn sounder, my issue is with tossing it in the sea. It seems to me a more logical choice to have placed it in the care of the Ogier. None could wield the OP in a steading and the horn could have been moved from steading to steading, in order to keep its actual location secret, plus with their long lives and longer memories, the horn would have been locatable when the time came for its next use.

Just a thought

Tsofu

We don't know what happened to it. Birgitte suggested Olver leave and toss it in the ocean but for now it COULD be in a Stedding. It could be anywhere.

GonzoTheGreat
02-24-2013, 06:06 AM
We don't know what happened to it. Birgitte suggested Olver leave and toss it in the ocean but for now it COULD be in a Stedding. It could be anywhere.
Nitpick: Birgitte claims that is what she told Olver to do. Her actual instructions to him may have been different, though.

Dom
02-24-2013, 04:19 PM
Indeed. And between the ending at SG and Birgitte's discussion with Elayne, Olver did not exactly have opportunities to throw the Horn in any sea, not without help from trustworthy adults (and precious few of those in his entourage happen to be channellers). If Birgitte didn't want to trust Elayne with this, she would trust even less options like asking the help of an Asha'man, damane, most AS (the only one she might have trusted with this would be Nynaeve, but Nynaeve was sort of busy. There would be Moiraine who could be trusted to decide to hide the Horn for good, confident it would be found when the Pattern needs it again, but Birgitte doesn't know this)...

My guess is that Birgitte convinced Olver to give her the Horn and she passed it to someone else she trusted to get rid of it that Olver wouldn't know about. It needed to be someone she could trust to put his/her care for Olver above temptation to keep the Horn. It probably happened right at Thakan'dar, and it might well have been Mat himself Birgitte passed the Horn to, or asked for help. If anyone could understand the troubles Olver would be in if the Horn didn't safely and "permanently" vanish it's Mat (much better than Olver himself...). Mat couldn't risk keeping it long or at all. If he was involved, the Horn probably found itself soon after in the hands of one of the usual suspects... Juilin, Setalle, Vanin... If Mat was involved, he did not likely involve Thom. It would have been perfect, but Mat is still way too paranoid about Moiraine.

Doing it that way would cut the trail should anyone decide to press Olver for answers about the Horn's whereabouts. The worst Olver could reveal under pressure is that he gave the Horn to Birgitte so she'd hide it.

My guess is that it did find its way to the sea or a similar hideout sooner than later. That scene was there mostly to reassure us poor little Olver won't be turned into a a prize the Seanchan, the nations and the WT will be desperate to grab - Birgitte (with or without Noal) did arrange something so he wouldn't be.