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Tollingtoy
02-23-2013, 07:05 PM
Doing a complete reread and as I read New Spring, I am struck by the immaturity of both Siuan and Moiraine. Obviously, this makes sense since they are so young, but aren't they about the same age or even a little older than Egwene and Elayne?

Reading this puts some of their (esp Elayne's) trangressions into perspective. Do you think RJ was deliberately trying to write Elayne and Egwene as characters who do foolish things because of their youth? If that is true, should we cut them a bit more slack in our criticism of their faults considering the type of people Moiraine and Siuan grew up to become?

GonzoTheGreat
02-24-2013, 05:56 AM
Moiraine and Siuan had gone to the Tower when they were still very immature. Then, while there, they had been treated as children basically the whole time. Is it any wonder that they still had some growing up to do at the end of that?

Egwene, on the other hand, had been raised as a normal person, and by the start of the series was considered mature enough to braid her hair.
Elayne had been raised as the heir to the throne. In some ways, that made her less mature, but in other ways it pushed her towards greater maturity.

And, on the other side of your question:
If they should be given slack because of their youth and immaturity, then by the same count they shouldn't be given too many responsibilities yet, because they can't handle them as a result of their youth and immaturity.

Tollingtoy
02-24-2013, 09:34 AM
I just think the people that criticize Egwene and Elayne or say they are "annoying" can look to both Moiraine and Siuan as people who have mostly grown out of some of these behaviors

GonzoTheGreat
02-24-2013, 11:54 AM
Elayne is like Paris Hilton with a sense of responsibility. Annoying now and then, maybe, but not bad.

Egwene is a student (or maybe role model) of Machiavelli. Could be less annoying than Elayne, but you definitely don't want her near you.

Elayne can grow up and get better, Egwene just grows craftier and more manipulative.

SauceyBlueConfetti
02-24-2013, 04:59 PM
Elayne is like Paris Hilton with a sense of responsibility. Annoying now and then, maybe, but not bad.

Paris Hilton? Wtf? Roflmao.

yks 6nnetu hing
02-24-2013, 05:06 PM
Elayne is like Paris Hilton with a sense of responsibility. Annoying now and then, maybe, but not bad.

Egwene is a student (or maybe role model) of Machiavelli. Could be less annoying than Elayne, but you definitely don't want her near you.

Elayne can grow up and get better, Egwene just grows craftier and more manipulative.

You know, when I was younger I used to dream of becoming Richelieu when I grew up.

Kimon
02-24-2013, 11:02 PM
Doing a complete reread and as I read New Spring, I am struck by the immaturity of both Siuan and Moiraine. Obviously, this makes sense since they are so young, but aren't they about the same age or even a little older than Egwene and Elayne?

Reading this puts some of their (esp Elayne's) trangressions into perspective. Do you think RJ was deliberately trying to write Elayne and Egwene as characters who do foolish things because of their youth? If that is true, should we cut them a bit more slack in our criticism of their faults considering the type of people Moiraine and Siuan grew up to become?


We see remnants of some of these same personality quirks in Moiraine later, such as when she showed her temper by smacking Rand with the power (which he mistakenly assumed had been Egwene). Her sense of invincibility, noticeable in NS (such as her annoyance at Lan and Bukama letting the bandits escape, when she assumed that she could take all 50 or so of them single-handed) was tempered later by experience. Nonetheless, Moiraine always demonstrates a sense of selflessness and determination in finding, protecting, and assisting the Dragon in saving the world from NS all the way through to the conclusion of TG. Sure Moiraine acts younger in NS, more naive, but she is her same courageous and noble self as evident through all the books.

Is the same true of Elayne, Nynaeve, and Egwene? Elayne is also clearly a bit too certain of her own invincibility throughout, but some of that is the fault of Min's viewing. She may be a bit vapid (albeit by no means to the degree of deserving Gonzo's comparison of her to that skank, Paris Hilton), and a bit too prone to rushing recklessly into danger, but her only true character flaw is her mistreatment Mat, but she is nowhere near the bitch to Mat that Nynaeve and Egwene were, and Nynaeve and Elayne both apologized to him, albeit Nynaeve did so far less graciously than did Elayne. Nonetheless, Elayne and Nynaeve both demonstrate positive signs of maturation throughout the series. Elayne in her recognition that she needed to make amends to Mat - RJ really should have had those two end up a couple. Nynaeve's maturation is evident in part in her acceptance of Mat, but especially in her attempt to teach all the Aes Sedai a lesson that they didn't want to learn - that they were too aloof from the world, and that they cherished the WT and their own sense of superiority above their true purpose, as the "servants to all".

Does Egwene really demonstrate this same development? She and Nynaeve were both equally bitchy towards Mat, and while, admittedly, she did not have as much opportunity to see how mistaken and petty her actions were, and then, as did Nynaeve and Elayne, to make amends, that is but one example of her pettiness. She could have easily corrected Gawyn's mistaken assumptions about Rand, but instead all but confirmed them. Why? She could have supported and aided Rand, like Nynaeve, instead we have her actions leading up to Merrilor.

Sure, Moiraine and Siuan are a bit naive and tempermental in NS, but they aren't petty, nor are they blinded by their own hubris. Sure Nynaeve is a bit bitchy in the early books, but by the last she is the most noble alongside Moiraine. Sure Elayne is a bit vapid and danger-prone, and some of her storylines are a bit dull, but she is never as irreparably flawed as Egwene. Egwene, in contrast gets worse as the series progresses. Indeed as Nynaeve grows more likeable, more noble, Egwene at the same time grows ever more deplorable in comparison.

GonzoTheGreat
02-25-2013, 03:45 AM
Paris Hilton? Wtf? Roflmao.
In the 2004 election for US president, Paris Hilton was the most reasonable of the three candidates.

You know, when I was younger I used to dream of becoming Richelieu when I grew up.
Richelieu was very capable, and nowhere near as bad as he is portrayed as being in The Three Musketeers. True, he did have some flaws (his persecution of Protestants comes to mind), but he was a lot better than Louis XIV, for instance.

Of course, if you do become Richelieu, you'll have to wear a red dress the whole time. Are you willing to suffer that fate?

Tollingtoy
02-25-2013, 09:03 PM
Elayne can grow up and get better, Egwene just grows craftier and more manipulative.


And Siuan wasn't?

GonzoTheGreat
02-26-2013, 04:47 AM
Siuan was manipulative in order to prepare for the coming of the Dragon Reborn. She made some mistakes in anticipating what would be needed, but that was her goal and that was what she worked towards.

Egwene was manipulative in order to promote the strength and standing of herself, women, and, eventually, the White Tower (which, of course, meant the Amyrlin, and you know who that was).

Figbiscuit
02-26-2013, 06:13 AM
You know, when I was younger I used to dream of becoming Richelieu when I grew up.

When I was younger I wanted to be Jo of the Chalet School. And in many ways I still do.

I really need to knuckle down and get aMoL read.

David Selig
02-26-2013, 02:39 PM
Doing a complete reread and as I read New Spring, I am struck by the immaturity of both Siuan and Moiraine. Obviously, this makes sense since they are so young, but aren't they about the same age or even a little older than Egwene and Elayne?

They are 22 in New Spring. Elayne and Egwene start the series are 18 for most of the series, even younger in the first few books.

Reading this puts some of their (esp Elayne's) trangressions into perspective. Do you think RJ was deliberately trying to write Elayne and Egwene as characters who do foolish things because of their youth?
Not really. They don't do foolish things more often than older characters and few of their mistakes are due to inexperience. After all, the biggest idiots in the series are the Forsaken with their average age of 350 or so, and the likes of Romanda aren't far behind in the clueless list.

And it's not like Rand and Perrin don't make as many or more bad decisions than the Supergirls...

suttree
02-27-2013, 12:56 PM
Egwene was manipulative in order to promote the strength and standing of herself, women, and, eventually, the White Tower (which, of course, meant the Amyrlin, and you know who that was).

Come on Gonz. We are quite literally hammered over the head with her reasoning on this. She believes the WT needs to be strong and whole to help the world at the LB. You can question whether she has drank too much of the AS kool aid but you can't question her intentions. Just a few of the many examples.

ToM
Obliquely, she realized what she was doing. She was using Rand's proclamation as a beacon by which to gather and tie the monarchs to the White Tower. They would come to support her arguments against breaking the seals. But in the end, they would serve humankind in the Last Battle.

ToM
"The world as it was cannot be ours any longer," Egwene said softly, not wanting the Wise Ones to overhear. "Was it ever? The Black Tower bonds Aes Sedai, the Aiel no longer revere us, the Windfinders have hidden their best channelers from us for centuries and are becoming increasingly belligerent. If we try to hold too tightly to all of this, we will either become tyrants or fools, depending upon how successful we are. I accept neither title....Then we have to play the best," Egwene said. "All of this is secondary, for now. We need unity against the Shadow and the Seanchan.

Further your assemssment totally ignores how she became Amyrlin and what she was forced to do to not only unit the WT but not become a puppet.

Tollingtoy
02-27-2013, 06:15 PM
They are 22 in New Spring. Elayne and Egwene start the series are 18 for most of the series, even younger in the first few books.


Right, that's why I said "Obviously, this makes sense since they are so young, but aren't they [Moiraine and Siuan] about the same age or even a little older than Egwene and Elayne?"

Tollingtoy
02-27-2013, 06:17 PM
Come on Gonz. We are quite literally hammered over the head with her reasoning on this. She believes the WT needs to be strong and whole to help the world at the LB. You can question whether she has drank too much of the AS kool aid but you can't question her intentions. Just a few of the many examples.


Further your assemssment totally ignores how she became Amyrlin and what she was forced to do to not only unit the WT but not become a puppet.


Agreed. Siuan's manipulations were to find the Dragon Reborn and prepare for the Last Battle. You can argue whether Egwene's path was the correct one to choose, but you can't argue that she essentially had the same goal as Siuan. What would have Siuan or Moiraine been like if they were in the positions that Egwene or Elayne occupied at an equivalent age?

Kimon
02-27-2013, 10:25 PM
Agreed. Siuan's manipulations were to find the Dragon Reborn and prepare for the Last Battle. You can argue whether Egwene's path was the correct one to choose, but you can't argue that she essentially had the same goal as Siuan. What would have Siuan or Moiraine been like if they were in the positions that Egwene or Elayne occupied at an equivalent age?

Comparing Egwene to Siuan, does not mean comparing her to Moiraine.

Nota Bene (from tGH):

"We had a plan! A plan, Moiraine! Locate the boy and bring him to Tar Valon, where we could hide him, keep him safe and guide him. Since you left the Tower, I have had only two messages from you. Two! I feel as if I'm trying to sail the Fingers of the Dragon in the dark. One message to say you were entering the Two Rivers, going to this village, this Emond's Field. Soon, I thought. He's found, and she'll have him in hand soon. Then word from Caemlyn to say you were coming to Shienar, to Fal Dara, not Tar Valon. Fal Dara, with the Blight almost close enough to touch. Fal Dara, where Trollocs raid and and Myrddraal ride as near every day as makes no difference. Nearly twenty years of planning and searching, and you toss all our plans practically in the Dark One's face. Are you mad?

Sounding similar to Egwene yet?

Now that she had stirred life in the other woman, Moiraine returned to outward calm. Calm, but firm insistence, too. "The Pattern pays no heed to human plans. With all our scheming, we forgot what we were dealing with. Ta'veren. Elaida is wrong. Artur Paendrag Tanreall was never this strongly ta'veren. The Wheel will the Pattern around this young manas it will, whatever our plans."

The anger left Amyrlin's face, replaced by white-faced shock. "It sounds as if you are saying we might as well give up. Do you now suggest standing aside and watching the world burn?"

Siuan and Egwene are better-intentioned than Elaida, but they all want to hold the reins. None of them are willing to see and to come to terms with reality as Moiraine does...

"No, Siuan. Never standing aside." Yet the world will burn, Siuan, one way or another, whatever we do. You could never see that. "But we must now realize that our plans are precarious things. We have even less control than we thought. Perhaps only a fingernail's grip. The winds of destiny are blowing, Siuan, and we must ride them where they take us."

Siuan, Elaida, and Egwene all wanted to stay in control of how events unfolded, and were unwilling to give the Dragon free rein. They all treated Rand like how a man would wield Saidin - as a struggle for control. By contrast, Moiraine finally won his trust, and in a way bridled him, by wielding him as a woman would wield saidar - and indeed noted that, clearly not to much avail, to Egwene. But Egwene was still but another in that sequence of Amyrlins, alongside Siuan and Elaida, who hoped to control events, to control the Dragon, to keep the world from burning. And in so doing she threatened to let the world burn unless she got her way.

Not so Moiraine. She saw the true path to victory. She saw that the Lord of Chaos must rule.

GonzoTheGreat
02-28-2013, 05:38 AM
She believes the WT needs to be strong and whole to help the world at the LB.
Yet quite a lot of AS did not come back even after Egwene had gained complete ascendancy; instead they became Dragonsworn and acted in the best interests of the world rather than just the political interests of the White Tower. Where they wrong to do so?

Sounding similar to Egwene yet?
Similar, but not the same. Siuan did not try to stop Moiraine from aiding Rand, did she? Egwene did try that with Nynaeve.


Siuan, Elaida, and Egwene all wanted to stay in control of how events unfolded, and were unwilling to give the Dragon free rein.
Yes and no. Siuan had a strong tendency to do that, but she also saw that it was not a good idea, and that another approach was needed. Which is why she actually supported Moiraine.

They all treated Rand like how a man would wield Saidin - as a struggle for control. By contrast, Moiraine finally won his trust, and in a way bridled him, by wielding him as a woman would wield saidar - and indeed noted that, clearly not to much avail, to Egwene. But Egwene was still but another in that sequence of Amyrlins, alongside Siuan and Elaida, who hoped to control events, to control the Dragon, to keep the world from burning. And in so doing she threatened to let the world burn unless she got her way.

Not so Moiraine. She saw the true path to victory. She saw that the Lord of Chaos must rule.
That is correct about Moiraine, but it is also true (to a somewhat lesser extend, perhaps) about Siuan. If it hadn't been true, then she would have taken him with her to Tar Valon when she left Val Dara, rather than letting him join Ingtar's party after catching an arrow in flight.

Siuan treated Rand with more respect before he had proclaimed himself than Egwene did when he came to visit her in the White Tower.

suttree
02-28-2013, 10:23 AM
If any other AS such as Cads had taken Moiraine's route it would have been disaster. He ran rough shod over her and then with his treatment at the hands of Elaida he mistrusted anything openly offered. Lets not sugar coat things either. One method of control wasn't working so she tried another. If she was merely a supporting advisor why do things like try to go behind his back and countermand orders such as trying to get the Aiel to not cross the Dragon Wall? I know Moiraine is a fan favorite but we have to be realistic about her intentions.

@Gonz

You have a funny way of totally ignoring what leads to certain situations and the twisting them out of context.

GonzoTheGreat
02-28-2013, 11:13 AM
Verin tried basically the same approach that Moiraine had taken, from even before Moiraine did, and it worked fairly well for her. Nynaeve also used that approach, and it worked even better for her.

Sure, it would have taken time before Rand started to trust Cadsuane even a little if she'd tried that approach. But then, he didn't trust her anymore now, did he?
And if she had started out by giving him useful advise and helpful (timely) information, then he might have had some actual benefit from it. Which, in turn, would have made him see AS as something else than opponents who were hiding their knives behind their backs rather than being honest about it like the Forsaken and the Whitecloaks.

Siuan considered using their original plan (which had been made based on no data apart from vaguely understood prophecies), but decided that letting the Dragon do what the Dragon had to do was more important than securing the political ascendancy of the Tower.
Egwene never really had the chance of getting control of the Dragon, but really wished she could, even though she had had years of seeing that such an approach simply did not work.

fionwe1987
02-28-2013, 01:24 PM
And, on the other side of your question:
If they should be given slack because of their youth and immaturity, then by the same count they shouldn't be given too many responsibilities yet, because they can't handle them as a result of their youth and immaturity.
Its not like either of these women sought the responsibility that was thrusted on them. Elayne got hers due to the untimely "death" of her mother, which I doubt even you could accuse her of wishing for. And Egwene explicitly thinks the Aes Sedai are idiots to want to raise her.


Is the same true of Elayne, Nynaeve, and Egwene? Elayne is also clearly a bit too certain of her own invincibility throughout, but some of that is the fault of Min's viewing. She may be a bit vapid (albeit by no means to the degree of deserving Gonzo's comparison of her to that skank, Paris Hilton), and a bit too prone to rushing recklessly into danger, but her only true character flaw is her mistreatment Mat, but she is nowhere near the bitch to Mat that Nynaeve and Egwene were, and Nynaeve and Elayne both apologized to him, albeit Nynaeve did so far less graciously than did Elayne.
Egwene never apologized to Mat, but she more than made up for it when she talked to him in the Stone, and helped him by revealing the secret of the Aelfinn doorway. She showed Mat she cared and really tried to help him. As opposed to Nynaeve who decided that it was fine for her to kick him when they next met...

She could have easily corrected Gawyn's mistaken assumptions about Rand, but instead all but confirmed them. Why? She could have supported and aided Rand, like Nynaeve, instead we have her actions leading up to Merrilor.
Egwene did correct Gawyn's mistake. But the idiot wanted actual proof. What do you suggest Egwene should have done? Manufactured some?

And Nynaeve supported Rand on his Seals plan because he explained his reasoning to her when she asked. When Egwene asked, he flatly refused. Exactly why should she have supported a nutjob plan that seemingly had no rationale?


Sounding similar to Egwene yet?
Since Egwene never once wished for Rand to be taken to the Tower, and actually decided to defy the Aes Sedai she was soon going to join by hiding Rand in her room (explicitly to protect him from them), I don't know what you mean when you think this sounds similar to Egwene. She had absolutely no interest in keeping Rand in the Tower, or directing him to any Prophesy.

Siuan and Egwene are better-intentioned than Elaida, but they all want to hold the reins. None of them are willing to see and to come to terms with reality as Moiraine does...
This would be fine if Moiraine actually hadn't been full of crap in that scene. If she genuinely believed what she thought there, she'd hardly have tried to stop Rand from bringing the Aiel across the Dragonwall, would she?

And Siuan, and later Egwene, were very very necessary to keep Rand in check.

Rand was right that he needed to take big risks, but the Pattern needed someone to counterbalance him, to keep in check any rash plan that would, I dunno, lead to the Dark One being freed.

Egwene and Siuan, unlike Elaida, never had any thought for using Rand as a puppet for their own glory. Elaida explicitly wanted to be remembered as the true savior of the world. Egwene and Siuan had no such intensions. It requires an extreme amount of blindness to compare those two to Elaida.

Siuan, Elaida, and Egwene all wanted to stay in control of how events unfolded, and were unwilling to give the Dragon free rein.
No one wanted to give Rand free reign. Cadsuane wanted him to get his emotional state in order. Nynaeve did too, and refused to let him kill the Borderlanders and destroy Far Madding. Moiraine refused to let him break the Seals and insisted he trust Egwene's judgment on this issue... And but for these interventions, Rand would have been a disaster.

They all treated Rand like how a man would wield Saidin - as a struggle for control.
Egwene and Rand treated each other as saidin and saidar treat each other. They work together while opposing each other. Neither can control the other, and neither supersedes the other. Each is frustrated by the other, yet the success of each depends on the other. That's the metaphor at play here.

But Egwene was still but another in that sequence of Amyrlins, alongside Siuan and Elaida, who hoped to control events, to control the Dragon, to keep the world from burning. And in so doing she threatened to let the world burn unless she got her way.
Well, its a good thing she got her way, or aMoL would have been 5 chapters long.

Not so Moiraine. She saw the true path to victory. She saw that the Lord of Chaos must rule.
Really?
Is that why she insisted the "Lord of Chaos" explicitly not rule, and give over command to someone else, and give up the Seals to Egwene?

This mischaracterization of Moiraine as some kind of fanatic Dragonsworn is deeply amusing. She controlled Rand more than anyone else, she didn't believe, to quote Nynaeve, that Rand was born spouting words of wisdom!

Egwene never really had the chance of getting control of the Dragon, but really wished she could, even though she had had years of seeing that such an approach simply did not work.
Care to prove that? It was Elayne who wanted Rand to kneel to Egwene. Egwene herself never even imagined such a thing.

Kimon
02-28-2013, 04:56 PM
Egwene did correct Gawyn's mistake. But the idiot wanted actual proof. What do you suggest Egwene should have done? Manufactured some?



She should have pointed out to him that Rand made his move against Rahvin after learning, from Mat, that Rahvin had killed (which was technically incorrect, but was the intel that he was operating upon) Morgase. But she never mentioned Rahvin, nor that Rand clearly hadn't killed Morgase. She could have completely dispelled his misapprehension, but she didn't.

This would be fine if Moiraine actually hadn't been full of crap in that scene. If she genuinely believed what she thought there, she'd hardly have tried to stop Rand from bringing the Aiel across the Dragonwall, would she?

And Siuan, and later Egwene, were very very necessary to keep Rand in check.

Moiraine tried to dissuade him, but she did accompany him across the Dragonwall, rather than trying to force him instead against Sammael. She quickly realized that the Aiel, not the Tairens were the "spears that he was leading to war" again, and again, she continued to advise him, rather than standing in his way, when he led the Aiel into Cairhien. As for Siuan, how exactly did she continue to "keep Rand in check"? She had already been deposed, and was trying to work behind the scenes at Salidar to ensure that the rebels would support Rand rather than going back to Elaida.

Egwene and Siuan, unlike Elaida, never had any thought for using Rand as a puppet for their own glory. Elaida explicitly wanted to be remembered as the true savior of the world. Egwene and Siuan had no such intensions. It requires an extreme amount of blindness to compare those two to Elaida.

I noted that they were both much more well-intentioned than Elaida. Nonetheless, Elaida was perhaps the best thing that could have happened to him. She de-stabilized the WT and the AS enough that it allowed him to gain enough power that they could neither stop him directly (albeit he did fall into Elaida's trap at Cairhien), nor stop his creation of the BT. Siuan would have supported him, but it is unlikely that the BT ever happens if a unified Tower was there to react to its initial creation. Moreover, all three, albeit to varying degrees of good and bad intentions, were trying to control him - Siuan, first by intending to bring him to the Tower, then, after Moiraine convinced her otherwise, by wanting to place AS at his side to direct and guide his movements; Elaida by trying to take him captive; Egwene by blocking his plans for TG in the lead up to Merrilor.

suttree
02-28-2013, 05:20 PM
@Kimon

Moiraine was attempting to control him as much as anyone for all that she had good intentions. Again let's not sugar coat her actions. One method wasn't working so she tried another. She played the role of "advisor" and then went behind his back more than once trying to countermand his orders.

Kimon
02-28-2013, 05:25 PM
@Kimon

Moiraine was attempting to control him as much as anyone for all that she had good intentions. Again let's not sugar coat her actions. One method wasn't working so she tried another. She played the role of "advisor" and then went behind his back more than once trying to countermand his orders.

Well, duh, but you can't deny that her method worked the best.

fionwe1987
02-28-2013, 05:58 PM
She should have pointed out to him that Rand made his move against Rahvin after learning, from Mat, that Rahvin had killed (which was technically incorrect, but was the intel that he was operating upon) Morgase. But she never mentioned Rahvin, nor that Rand clearly hadn't killed Morgase. She could have completely dispelled his misapprehension, but she didn't.
She could not have dispelled anything:

Egwene's eyes nearly popped out of her head. "Gawyn, no! No, he did not!".
"Can you swear it? Were you there when she died? It's on every tongue. The Dragon Reborn took Caemlyn, and killed Morgase. He probably killed Elayne, too. I can find no word of her."

Egwene could swear to nothing, and she explicitly was not there to witness Morghase's "death". That was the standard of evidence Gawyn demanded, and Egwene did not have it at that time. So she asked him to promise to hold back till she did find such evidence, which achieved exactly the same purpose.

Moiraine tried to dissuade him, but she did accompany him across the Dragonwall, rather than trying to force him instead against Sammael.
That is because she had no way to force him. And I'm not referring just to preventing Rand from going to the Waste. I'm talking about her issues with him leading the Aiel clans across the Dragonwall. If she really accepted that the world would burn, why did she object saying that Rand's actions could ruin Siuan's plans for him?

I'm not even saying her objections were wrong. Just pointing out that your characterization of Moiraine is entirely fictitious.

She quickly realized that the Aiel, not the Tairens were the "spears that he was leading to war" again, and again, she continued to advise him, rather than standing in his way, when he led the Aiel into Cairhien.
She couldn't stand in his way either. Exactly what was she supposed to do? She had no power.
As for Siuan, how exactly did she continue to "keep Rand in check"? She had already been deposed, and was trying to work behind the scenes at Salidar to ensure that the rebels would support Rand rather than going back to Elaida.
I'm referring to early on, where she worked to direct him towards the Hunt for the Horn.

I noted that they were both much more well-intentioned than Elaida.
That's not the only difference between these women. Not to mention that their intentions were practical, as opposed to Elaida's grandiloquent plans.
Nonetheless, Elaida was perhaps the best thing that could have happened to him. She de-stabilized the WT and the AS enough that it allowed him to gain enough power that they could neither stop him directly (albeit he did fall into Elaida's trap at Cairhien), nor stop his creation of the BT.
That is Egwene's view. When she first learns of Siuan's deposal, she is glad there are Rebels opposing Elaida. In tPoD, she justifies the Rebellion to Siuan by saying that if Elaida had free reign, she'd have tried to destroy the BT, or kidnap Rand (unluckily for Egwene, Elaida proved to be even more stupid that she could credit).
Siuan would have supported him, but it is unlikely that the BT ever happens if a unified Tower was there to react to its initial creation.
We don't know that. And certainly, if you want to credit anyone for inadvertantly allowing the BT to exist, its the Rebels you must credit, for providing a strong enough distraction that Elaida was too late to do anything about the BT.
Moreover, all three, albeit to varying degrees of good and bad intentions, were trying to control him -
As was everybody else. Name one person who didn't give a damn what Rand did, and you'd have named the farmer in Salesin. Rand was prophesied to be an awesome force of destruction and chaos. No one cared to stand by and let him do as he pleased, and nor could they be expected to.
Siuan, first by intending to bring him to the Tower,
Which, at that point, was not a terrible strategy. She didn't know the Foresaken were free.
then, after Moiraine convinced her otherwise, by wanting to place AS at his side to direct and guide his movements;
The Aes Sedai being Moiraine, who you've been signing the praises of. What exactly is your point here?
Elaida by trying to take him captive;
The only action that was truly about controlling Rand.
Egwene by blocking his plans for TG in the lead up to Merrilor.
And this is wrong because...?

fionwe1987
02-28-2013, 06:00 PM
Well, duh, but you can't deny that her method worked the best.
For that time, yes. Egwene could hardly adopt it, especially since Rand worked very hard to make sure she couldn't adopt it, by laying down a crazy ultimatum in public and refusing to discuss anything with her.

Kimon
02-28-2013, 07:20 PM
She could not have dispelled anything:

Egwene could swear to nothing, and she explicitly was not there to witness Morghase's "death". That was the standard of evidence Gawyn demanded, and Egwene did not have it at that time. So she asked him to promise to hold back till she did find such evidence, which achieved exactly the same purpose.


Rand wasn't there to witness it either, since as far as they both had known she was already dead before Rand and his posse went against Rahvin, whom again, she did not even bother to mention to Gawyn. You're clutching at straws here, Fionwe...

She couldn't stand in his way either. Exactly what was she supposed to do? She had no power.

Do you not see the problem with your stance now yourself? Moiraine made her mission to find and to assist the Dragon, not to seek and perpetuate her own personal power. This does not mean that Siuan and Egwene were the same as Elaida, who was completely blinded by her own ambition and delusions of grandeur, but Egwene still clearly questioned his ability to best prosecute the war, and asserted that she, as the Amyrlin, somehow, on the basis of no evidence, knew better, and as such would raise an army (actually many armies), and stop him. The difference here isn't that Egwene had those armies at her disposal, while Moiraine didn't. The difference is that Moiraine helped him even when she thought he was wrong, since, you know, he was the Dragon, and ta'veren, and hence his wacky plan probably was what the Pattern wanted to happen.

Edit:

Think of it this way Fionwe -

A king has two lieutenants, to whom he discusses his plans for prosecuting a war. Both offer him advice, which he doesn't take. The one advisor helps him carry out his plan, the other raises an army and threatens to declare war on him unless he bows to her demands. Which is the good lieutenant, which is the traitor?

That is Egwene's view. When she first learns of Siuan's deposal, she is glad there are Rebels opposing Elaida. In tPoD, she justifies the Rebellion to Siuan by saying that if Elaida had free reign, she'd have tried to destroy the BT, or kidnap Rand (unluckily for Egwene, Elaida proved to be even more stupid that she could credit).

Take a look at tFoH Ch 15 - Moiraine leads her to this realization.

The Aes Sedai being Moiraine, who you've been signing the praises of. What exactly is your point here?

Is this rhetorical, since if not, you have clearly answered your own question...

And this is wrong because...?

Because Rand was the Dragon, not Egwene. If in the next turning Egwene is instead tapped by the Creator to play generalissimo, then she can go with her own wacky plan...

suttree
02-28-2013, 07:31 PM
Egwene could swear to nothing, and she explicitly was not there to witness Morghase's "death".

Totally sounding that out in Vargo Hoat's accent.

fionwe1987
02-28-2013, 11:22 PM
Rand wasn't there to witness it either, since as far as they both had known she was already dead before Rand and his posse went against Rahvin, whom again, she did not even bother to mention to Gawyn. You're clutching at straws here, Fionwe...
So how do you imagine that conversation would go? Like this?

Egwene: Gawyn, we heard a rumor your mom was dead before Rand went to Caemlyn.

Gawyn" Why was he going to Caemlyn? And who else could possibly kill the Queen of Andor?

Egwene: Rahvin, on both counts. Rand was going to Andor to kill him, and he killed your mom.

Gawyn: Rahvin??? What? Where the hell did you get that from?

Egwene: Ummm... Rand told me. And before you ask, I don't know how he knew.

Gawyn: HAHAHAHA! And I'm supposed to take the word of a man who I irrationally believe killed my mom based on hearsay alone? Did you see Rahvin?

Egwene: Ummm... No.

Fat lot of good that would have done. Her way was more definite. It got the result that was needed, so I don't see what you're complaining about. And she certainly had no other options there.

And can you tell me something. Why do you think Egwene didn't give Gawyn all her second-hand info? Are you claiming this was out of spite against Rand? A wish to see Gawyn run his sword through Rand? Use this as leverage against Rand? What?

Do you not see the problem with your stance now yourself? Moiraine made her mission to find and to assist the Dragon, not to seek and perpetuate her own personal power.
Dude... how would it be about personal power if she used the means she had to stop him from making a what she sincerely believed was a terrible mistake?

I mean, have you completely forgotten that Moiraine was the one who manipulated things so Thom would go far away from Rand? And do you know what her reason was? Thom's advice was too good!

For an instant she regretted sending Thom away. She did not like having to waste her time with these petty affairs. But he had too much influence with Rand; the boy had to depend on her counsel. Hers, and hers
alone. The Light knew he was difficult enough without interference. Thom had been settling the boy down to rule Tear when he needed to be moving on to greater things. But that was dealt with for now.

Will you accept this PoV from Moiraine as a sign that she wanted personal power? Or are you ready to see that Moiraine was doing what she felt was right to guide Rand, as was Egwene, later? The double standards in your argument are growing really tiresome.
This does not mean that Siuan and Egwene were the same as Elaida, who was completely blinded by her own ambition and delusions of grandeur, but Egwene still clearly questioned his ability to best prosecute the war, and asserted that she, as the Amyrlin, somehow, on the basis of no evidence, knew better, and as such would raise an army (actually many armies), and stop him.
Yes, Egwene questioned Rand's plan. And she had sound basis, because she had both her Dream, and the 3000 years worth of analysis from the White Tower backing her up. Just as Moiraine had a sound basis for not wanting Rand to sit and rule in Tear. There is no single prophesy which says that Rand will always be right, or that his decisions should be unopposed. There was however, a Prophesy about Rand and Egwene having a tiff (though neither of them knew of it, of course). That Rand was a Prophesied savior does not mean you bury your head in the sand and hope he'll do the right thing. Egwene was duty bound to question him, and needle him about the flaws in his plan. Her first title is "Watcher of the Seals". It is the most ancient responsibility of her office, and she had critical information regarding them, that Rand simply did not have. She'd have to be a complete moron to not raise her arguments against him.

And don't for a minute say that she should have tried to reason with him. She tried, but Rand didn't want to talk it over with her. He wanted to put her in a position where she would have to marshall her armies. She had no choice, and that was by design.

The difference here isn't that Egwene had those armies at her disposal, while Moiraine didn't. The difference is that Moiraine helped him even when she thought he was wrong, since, you know, he was the Dragon, and ta'veren, and hence his wacky plan probably was what the Pattern wanted to happen.
I'm unaware of anything in WoT which says that being ta'veren or being the Dragon means that the thoughts and plans in your head are what the Pattern wants. If the Pattern needed Rand to be unopposed, why would it deliver a Foretelling that indicated he would in fact, be opposed by the Amyrlin? Why deliver a Dream to Egwene that makes it clear the timing of Rand's plan would be disastrous? Why work so hard to create events that would lead to Egwene's meteoric rise? Why not have some wimpy Brown made Amyrlin?

You're making the mistake of thinking that ta'veren means you're always right. As Rand found out, this is definitely not the case:

The Dragon Scepter flew from the floor behind Rand, and he snagged it out of the air without looking. His eyes were not ice any more. They were blue fire. "A Sea Folk ambassador clinging to my heels?" he shouted. "Obey summonses?" He shook the carved spearhead at them, the green-and-white tassel flailing. "There are a people out there who want to conquer all of us, and might be able to do it! The Forsaken are out there! The Dark One is waiting! Why didn't you agree I'd caulk their hulls while you were about it!"
...
Rafela actually swayed before that blast, but Merana drew herself up, her own eyes managing a good imitation of brown fire flecked with gold. "You castigate us?" she snapped in tones as frosty as her eyes were hot. She was Aes Sedai as the child Min had seen them, regal above queens, powerful above powers. "You were present in the beginning, ta'veren, and you twisted them as you wanted them. You could have had them all kneeling to you! But you left! They were not pleased to know they had been dancing for a ta'veren. Somewhere, they learned to weave shields, and before you were well off their ship, Rafela and I were shielded. So we could not take advantage with the Power, they said. More than once, Harine threatened to hang us in the rigging by our toes until we came to our senses, and I for one believe she meant it! Feel lucky that you have the ships you want, Rand al'Thor. Harine would have given you a handful! Feel lucky she didn't want your new boots and that
ghastly throne of yours as well! Oh, by the by, she formally acknowledged you as the Coramoor, may you get a bellyache from it!"
Min stared at her. Rand and Dobraine stared at her, and the Cairhienin's jaw hung open. Rafela stared, her mouth working soundlessly. For that matter, the fire faded from Merana's eyes, and they slowly grew wider and wider as if she were just hearing what she had said.
The Dragon Scepter trembled in Rand's fist. Min had seen his fury swell near to bursting for far less. She prayed for a way to avoid the explosion, and could not see one.
"It seems," he said finally, "that the words a ta'veren drags out aren't always the words he wants to hear."

Nothing says a ta'veren cannot be wrong. To the contrary, they're perfectly human. The difference is, the Pattern scrambles to throw whatever it can at them to prevent mistakes if possible.

The standard of behavior towards the Dragon is not subservience. Its honest interaction as you would have with anyone else. There were any number of people who expected that Egwene would be left without allies in Merrilor once Rand's ta'veren nature got in the way, as if being ta'veren is some kind of lucky charm that removed all obstacles from your way. Your arguments are just as flawed.

Edit:

Think of it this way Fionwe -

A king has two lieutenants, to whom he discusses his plans for prosecuting a war. Both offer him advice, which he doesn't take. The one advisor helps him carry out his plan, the other raises an army and threatens to declare war on him unless he bows to her demands. Which is the good lieutenant, which is the traitor?
Egwene is not Rand's lieutenant. Try again with a better analogy.

Take a look at tFoH Ch 15 - Moiraine leads her to this realization.
I'm going to take this as proof that you're incapable of reading an Egwene PoV without bias. Here are some quotes to prove my point:

"I do not see how you can be so calm. Siuan could be dead, or even stilled. Elaida will either oppose Rand altogether or try to hold him somewhere until Tarmon Gai'don; you know she'll never let a man who can channel run free. At least not everyone is behind Elaida. Some of the Blue Ajah are gathering somewhere-I don't know where yet-and I think others have left the Tower, too. Nynaeve said that she was given a message about all sisters being welcome to return to the Tower by an eyes-and-ears of the Yellow. If Blues and Yellows have both gone, others must have. And if they oppose Elaida, they may support Rand."
Moiraine sighed, a soft sound. "Do you expect me to be happy that the White Tower has split apart? I am Aes Sedai, Egwene. I gave my life to the Tower long before I ever suspected the Dragon would, be Reborn in my lifetime. The Tower has been a bulwark against the Shadow for three thousand years. It has guided rulers to wise decisions, stopped wars before they began, halted wars that did begin. That humankind even remembers
that the Dark One waits to escape, that the Last Battle will come, is because of the Tower. The Tower, whole and united. I could almost wish that every sister had sworn to Elaida, whatever happened to Siuan."
"And Rand?" Egwene kept her voice just as steady, just as smooth. The flames were beginning to put a little warmth into the air, but Moiraine had just added her own chill. "The Dragon Reborn. You yourself said that he cannot be ready for Tarmon Gai'don unless he is allowed his freedom, both to learn and to affect the world. The Tower united could take him prisoner despite all the Aiel in the Waste."

Far from guiding Egwene to anything, Moiraine is the one who wishes the Tower were still whole under Elaida. Egwene's the one who thinks a divided Tower is needed to give Rand his freedom. She's the one who doesn't want him curtailed.

It almost seems as if you went into this chapter with your mind made up about Egwene. I can't see how else you mixed up who said what so completely.

Is this rhetorical, since if not, you have clearly answered your own question...
You claimed that Siuan wanting to have an Aes Sedai near Rand was a sign of her wanting to control him, yet the Aes Sedai she chose is someone you've been (mistakenly) championing as someone who always let Rand do as he wanted. I was just pointing out the inconsistency in that argument.

Because Rand was the Dragon, not Egwene. If in the next turning Egwene is instead tapped by the Creator to play generalissimo, then she can go with her own wacky plan...
Egwene did not want her own plan. She just wanted to correct one aspect of the plan. And once again, nothing says Rand being the Dragon means he's the one who'll come up with the right plan. His plan was to kill the Dark One. As it turns out, the plan was Min's, with emendations inserted due to Egwene being ready to stand up for what she believed. As we saw from Rand's weaving of a Pattern with no DO, the end of his plan would have been the end of the world just as much as the DO winning. Egwene was completely right to call Rand's plan madness. And she didn't need to be Dragon to be correct either.

Kimon
03-01-2013, 12:09 AM
So how do you imagine that conversation would go? Like this?

Egwene: Gawyn, we heard a rumor your mom was dead before Rand went to Caemlyn.

Gawyn" Why was he going to Caemlyn? And who else could possibly kill the Queen of Andor?

Egwene: Rahvin, on both counts. Rand was going to Andor to kill him, and he killed your mom.

Gawyn: Rahvin??? What? Where the hell did you get that from?

Egwene: Ummm... Rand told me. And before you ask, I don't know how he knew.

Gawyn: HAHAHAHA! And I'm supposed to take the word of a man who I irrationally believe killed my mom based on hearsay alone? Did you see Rahvin?

Egwene: Ummm... No.

Fat lot of good that would have done. Her way was more definite. It got the result that was needed, so I don't see what you're complaining about. And she certainly had no other options there.

And can you tell me something. Why do you think Egwene didn't give Gawyn all her second-hand info? Are you claiming this was out of spite against Rand? A wish to see Gawyn run his sword through Rand? Use this as leverage against Rand? What?


All she needed to tell him was that Mat brought the news that Gaebril had murdered Morgase, and seized power. That Rand was enraged when he heard, and was convinced that Gaebril was really Rahvin. Which was correct. That she and Moiraine had to calm him down enough so that he didn't rush off to avenge her on his own.

As for why she instead said nothing, I don't think it was some diabolical bit of long-term maneuvering on her part, just that it was massively irresponsible, and an oversight that was plot driven so that Gawyn could understandably maintain his obsessive hatred of Rand, and allow him to justify not helping Rand when he learned that the Tower sisters had taken him captive. Moreover, it allowed for his continued general schmuckishness for the next couple of books, until Elayne finally told him to man-up and stop acting like such useless twat.

Dude... how would it be about personal power if she used the means she had to stop him from making a what she sincerely believed was a terrible mistake?

I mean, have you completely forgotten that Moiraine was the one who manipulated things so Thom would go far away from Rand? And do you know what her reason was? Thom's advice was too good!

Will you accept this PoV from Moiraine as a sign that she wanted personal power? Or are you ready to see that Moiraine was doing what she felt was right to guide Rand, as was Egwene, later? The double standards in your argument are growing really tiresome.


This POV is an example that she was desperate to push away others with influence over Rand, since she saw them as bothersome rivals, but that's not really the same as personal ambition so much as merely an act of depseration, but even if you regard it as such, this is still before she has her epiphany on how to deal with Rand - of treating him like saidar. Prior to this change she is much less successful in her efforts to gain his trust and to influence him.

Yes, Egwene questioned Rand's plan. And she had sound basis, because she had both her Dream, and the 3000 years worth of analysis from the White Tower backing her up. Just as Moiraine had a sound basis for not wanting Rand to sit and rule in Tear. There is no single prophesy which says that Rand will always be right, or that his decisions should be unopposed. There was however, a Prophesy about Rand and Egwene having a tiff (though neither of them knew of it, of course). That Rand was a Prophesied savior does not mean you bury your head in the sand and hope he'll do the right thing. Egwene was duty bound to question him, and needle him about the flaws in his plan. Her first title is "Watcher of the Seals". It is the most ancient responsibility of her office, and she had critical information regarding them, that Rand simply did not have. She'd have to be a complete moron to not raise her arguments against him.

And don't for a minute say that she should have tried to reason with him. She tried, but Rand didn't want to talk it over with her. He wanted to put her in a position where she would have to marshall her armies. She had no choice, and that was by design.

There is a vast difference between raising arguments and organizing defiance. You might not want to admit, just as she didn't want to admit it, but this was not a relationship between equals. He was the commander, and she was the lieutenant. At the end of the day, she needs to follow orders, not sow dissension.

I'm going to take this as proof that you're incapable of reading an Egwene PoV without bias. Here are some quotes to prove my point:

Did you intentionally curtail that passage to misrepresent it?

"And Rand?" Egwene kept her voice just as steady, just as smooth. The flames were beginning to put a little warmth into the air, but Moiraine had just added her own chill. "The Dragon Reborn. You yourself said that he cannot be ready for Tarmon Gai'don unless he is allowed his freedom, both to learn and to affect the world. The Tower united could take him prisoner despite all the Aiel in the Waste."

Here's the very next lines:

Moiraine smiled a small smile. "You learn. Cool reason is always better than hot words. But you forget that only thirteen sisters linked can shield any man from saidin, and even if they do not know the trick of tying flows, fewer can hold the shield."

"I know you are not giving up, Moiraine. What do you mean to do?"

"I mean to deal with the world as I find the world, for as long as I can. At least Rand will be - easier to be around - now that I no longer need try to turn him from want he wants. I suppose I should be happy that does not make me fetch his wine. He does listen most of the time, even if he seldom gives any sign what he thinks of what I tell him."

Again, she clearly guided Egwene to this realization.

Far from guiding Egwene to anything, Moiraine is the one who wishes the Tower were still whole under Elaida. Egwene's the one who thinks a divided Tower is needed to give Rand his freedom. She's the one who doesn't want him curtailed.

Take a more careful look at what Moiraine says.

I could almost wish that every sister had sworn to Elaida, whatever happened to Siuan."

She doesn't say that she does wish it, she says that she "could". This is Aes Sedai speak, because she cannot say that she does wish it without lying.

Egwene did not want her own plan. She just wanted to correct one aspect of the plan. And once again, nothing says Rand being the Dragon means he's the one who'll come up with the right plan. His plan was to kill the Dark One. As it turns out, the plan was Min's, with emendations inserted due to Egwene being ready to stand up for what she believed. As we saw from Rand's weaving of a Pattern with no DO, the end of his plan would have been the end of the world just as much as the DO winning. Egwene was completely right to call Rand's plan madness. And she didn't need to be Dragon to be correct either.

His plan worked. Hers would have just patched the prison, while leaving in place defective seals. It was a stop-gap measure. The fact that she considered it madness was inconsequential. Consider Bashere's story of the dead, insane, Saldaean general who ordered his men to kill a grove of trees, made them bury them, then listen to his eulogy. They did it because he never lost a battle. Bashere followed Rand for the same reason. He knew Rand was their only chance of winning the war. They did win, and they won it with Rand's plan.

fionwe1987
03-01-2013, 12:46 AM
All she needed to tell him was that Mat brought the news that Gaebril had murdered Morgase, and seized power. That Rand was enraged when he heard, and was convinced that Gaebril was really Rahvin. Which was correct. That she and Moiraine had to calm him down enough so that he didn't rush off to avenge her on his own.
None of this is proof Gawyn is going to accept.
As for why she instead said nothing, I don't think it was some diabolical bit of long-term maneuvering on her part, just that it was massively irresponsible, and an oversight that was plot driven so that Gawyn could understandably maintain his obsessive hatred of Rand, and allow him to justify not helping Rand when he learned that the Tower sisters had taken him captive. Moreover, it allowed for his continued general schmuckishness for the next couple of books, until Elayne finally told him to man-up and stop acting like such useless twat.
Make up your mind. Was it Egwene's fault or RJ's?

This POV is an example that she was desperate to push away others with influence over Rand, since she saw them as bothersome rivals, but that's not really the same as personal ambition so much as merely an act of depseration, but even if you regard it as such, this is still before she has her epiphany on how to deal with Rand - of treating him like saidar. Prior to this change she is much less successful in her efforts to gain his trust and to influence him.
What a lot of hooey.

There is a vast difference between raising arguments and organizing defiance. You might not want to admit, just as she didn't want to admit it, but this was not a relationship between equals. He was the commander, and she was the lieutenant. At the end of the day, she needs to follow orders, not sow dissension.
No one, not Rand, not the rulers of the world... absolutely no one thinks the Amyrlin Seat is subordinate to the Dragon Reborn. Keep insisting on it, but you're never going to offer proof.

Did you intentionally curtail that passage to misrepresent it?
No, and the rest of the passage you quoted shows nothing different. Are you sure you aren't inserting a line that says "ALWAYS HATE EGWENE" that is somehow making you view things differently?

Here's the very next lines:
Ok... and?


Again, she clearly guided Egwene to this realization.
I suspect you're using "realization" to mean something else. I'm talking about Egwene being glad the Tower was divided, and seeing advantages in it for Rand. Moriaine doesn't guide her toward it. Do you mean something different?

Take a more careful look at what Moiraine says.
Did Moiraine say this mysterious thing that changes the interpretation or did you mentally add something?

She doesn't say that she does wish it, she says that she "could". This is Aes Sedai speak, because she cannot say that she does wish it without lying.
Oh... HAHAHA!

"Do you expect me to be happy that the White Tower has split apart? I
am Aes Sedai, Egwene. I gave my life to the Tower long before I ever suspected the Dragon would, be Reborn in my lifetime. The Tower has been a bulwark against the Shadow for three thousand years. It has guided rulers
to wise decisions, stopped wars before they began, halted wars that did begin. That humankind even remembers that the Dark One waits to escape, that the Last Battle will come, is because of the Tower. The Tower, whole
and united.
Please show me the Aes Sedai twisting in all this too. And then explain why Moiraine would be twisting her words in this instance.

I'm not saying that Moiraine does want Ealida to lead. I'm saying she thinks the Tower united is worth something even at the cost to the Dragon, though she doesn't like what would happen, and explicitly doesn't want it to happen.

His plan worked.
So, the Seals were broken the day after Merrilor, and the Dark One is dead? Great. I should ask for this version of aMoL. Should I sue Tor for giving me a book where something else happened?

yks 6nnetu hing
03-01-2013, 02:37 AM
Thread was moved due to aMoL content. Please stay on topic/refrain from too much Egwene discussion or posts may be moved.

suttree
03-01-2013, 10:22 AM
His plan worked. Hers would have just patched the prison, while leaving in place defective seals. It was a stop-gap measure. The fact that she considered it madness was inconsequential. Consider Bashere's story of the dead, insane, Saldaean general who ordered his men to kill a grove of trees, made them bury them, then listen to his eulogy. They did it because he never lost a battle. Bashere followed Rand for the same reason. He knew Rand was their only chance of winning the war. They did win, and they won it with Rand's plan.

Come on Kimon. Did you just skip Moiraine's whole role and the need for both parties to work together with info from both sides? Further Rand had no plan as of their WT meeting. Yes he had some ideas from Fel and he was waiting for Min to tell him what to do but that hardly constitues having a plan. All of those parties including Egwene held vital info to what ended up working against the DO.

Rand al'Fain
03-01-2013, 12:46 PM
Come on Kimon. Did you just skip Moiraine's whole role and the need for both parties to work together with info from both sides? Further Rand had no plan as of their WT meeting. Yes he had some ideas from Fel and he was waiting for Min to tell him what to do but that hardly constitues having a plan. All of those parties including Egwene held vital info to what ended up working against the DO.

Not really Eggy's fault, but her info from the library was rather vague, and she thought her dream meant NOT to break the seals at all. Just patch them up (which, lets face it, would not have worked for very long, if at all) and call it a day.

GonzoTheGreat
03-01-2013, 12:56 PM
All of those parties including Egwene held vital info to what ended up working against the DO.
Some of those parties (not including Egwene) even made an attempt to get said information to Rand before Tarmon Gai'don had actually started.

fionwe1987
03-01-2013, 01:00 PM
Not really Eggy's fault, but her info from the library was rather vague, and she thought her dream meant NOT to break the seals at all. Just patch them up (which, lets face it, would not have worked for very long, if at all) and call it a day.
The mistake people make is thinking that any one party had a functional plan. They were both wrong. They were at the two ends of insanity. Rand wanted to end it for ever. Egwene wanted to wait and see. Remind you of a previous situation?

It's only when they worked together that they were able to come up with a plan that was feasible. That's the thematic point of Merrillor.

GonzoTheGreat
03-01-2013, 01:08 PM
Nitpick: even after Merrilor Rand wanted to end it forever. It was only when, during his fight with the DO, he realised that wouldn't work that he decided to less extreme measures. But that decision was not based on Egwene's input, it was based on what he saw in his own attempt at a perfect world.

fionwe1987
03-01-2013, 01:17 PM
Some of those parties (not including Egwene) even made an attempt to get said information to Rand before Tarmon Gai'don had actually started.
So did Egwene. Rand refused to let her. You do remember that she asked him to sit down and discuss his plan right away, correct? Rand was the one who refused.

Nitpick: even after Merrilor Rand wanted to end it forever. It was only when, during his fight with the DO, he realised that wouldn't work that he decided to less extreme measures. But that decision was not based on Egwene's input, it was based on what he saw in his own attempt at a perfect world.
Yes. I'm only saying that Egwene was right on this, not that Rand took her advice on this as he should have. Its not even like others approved of the plan. She was just the first one he revealed it to, and her understandable reaction made him realize he should probably not scare anyone else with this wild idea. He still nursed it, till he finally learned that he'd been wrong about it.

suttree
03-01-2013, 01:32 PM
Only read it once could someone remind me. What did Tam and Egwene say to Rand again during his battle with the DO?

fionwe1987
03-01-2013, 02:06 PM
Only read it once could someone remind me. What did Tam and Egwene say to Rand again during his battle with the DO?

*Brings out the popcorn and waits...*

The Unreasoner
03-01-2013, 02:39 PM
Nitpick: even after Merrilor Rand wanted to end it forever. It was only when, during his fight with the DO, he realised that wouldn't work that he decided to less extreme measures. But that decision was not based on Egwene's input, it was based on what he saw in his own attempt at a perfect world.
So Shai'tan is better for the Pattern than Egwene. Interesting...

It seems that a lot of the...less sound...arguments in Egwene's favor are based on the notion that she is somehow equal to the Dragon, instead of subordinate. We have only to look to Moiraine's words at Merrilor to learn how false this is. Tuon, Egwene, even Moridin are all 2nd tier.

I won't even touch the argument that Egwene's title as the Watcher of the Seals gives her some right to them, or even some right to control their fate. A recurring theme of WoT is the ridiculousness of that reasoning. Most of Egwene's immaturity stems from this sort of thing though, just as most of Egwene's power stems from popular sufferance. Egwene got what she did at Merrilor because Rand gave it to her (because of Moiraine). Egwene got what she got in negotiation with Tuon because Tuon handed it to her on a silver platter. Egwene needed Tuon, Tuon did not need Egwene. Likely Mat's ta'veren influence helped Tuon cede things that she had no need to cede (all for the greater good of the Pattern, of course).

Kimon
03-01-2013, 05:39 PM
None of this is proof Gawyn is going to accept.



Which is however a completely separate issue. The issue at hand was whether or not Egwene could have provided him with valid and convincing information, information which she had at her disposal, not whether or not Gawyn would have believed her.

Make up your mind. Was it Egwene's fault or RJ's?

Using the word "fault" here for RJ is too strong. Was it intentional? Likely the answer to that is yes. Assuming that, would he have realized that this passage would have served as one of the major sources, up to that point, of dissapointment and disapproval of Egwene (alongside her treatment of Mat). The answer here is likely yes again. As for Egwene, the word "fault" is much more fitting.

No one, not Rand, not the rulers of the world... absolutely no one thinks the Amyrlin Seat is subordinate to the Dragon Reborn. Keep insisting on it, but you're never going to offer proof.

The Karaethon Cycle...

No one, not Rand, not the rulers of the world... absolutely no one thinks the Amyrlin Seat is subordinate to the Dragon Reborn. Keep insisting on it, but you're never going to offer proof.

I'll walk you through the passage again, though how you can be missing this is surprising.

This comes shortly after Egwene's initial comment that Elaida is Amyrlin and that Siuan has been deposed - skipped over due to the longevity of the following descriptive paragraph that has no bearing on the matter:

"I saw an arrest warrant for you, Moiraine, signed by Elaida as Amyrlin. And it was no ordinary dream." All true. Just not the whole truth. She was suddenly glad that Nynaeve was not there. I'd be the one staring at a cup, if she was.

The italics here are in the text, but otherwise inconsequential. The key is that Egwene expects that Moiraine should be upset, but instead here is Moiraine's response.

"The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills. Perhaps it will not matter so much if Rand takes the Aiel across the Dragonwall. I doubt that Elaida has continued to approach rulers, even if she knows that Siuan was doing so."

"Is that all you can say? I think Siuan was your friend once, Moiraine. Can't you shed a tear for her?"

And now Moiraine's response, where she is clearly beginning to guide her towards that aforementioned conclusion:

The Aes Sedai looked at her, and that cool, serene gaze told her how far she had to go before she could use that title herself. Sitting, Egwene was nearly a head taller, and she was stronger in the Power besides, but there was more to being an Aes Sedai than strength. "I have no time for tears, Egwene. The Dragonwall is not many days distant now, and the Alguenya.... Siuan and I were friends, once. In a few months it will be twenty-one years since we began the search for the Dragon reborn. Only the two of us, newly raised Aes Sedai. Sierin Vayu was raised shortly after, a Gray with more than a touch of Red in her. Had she learned what we intended, we would have spent the rest of our lives doing penance with Red sisters watching us even while we slept. There is a saying in Cairhien, though I have heard it as far away as Tarabon and Saldaea. 'Take what you want, and pay for it.' Siuan and I took the path we wanted, and we knew we would have to pay for it eventually."

Here she begins to hint at what Egwene should really be thinking, by mentioning the Dragon, and Sierin, an almost Red Amyrlin. Egwene still needs a bit more prompting though, but she is starting to see what is really important about this development.

Here's Egwene's response:

"I do not see how you can be so calm. Siuan could be dead, or even stilled. Elaida will either oppose Rand altogether or try to hold him somewhere until Tarmon Gai'don; you know she'll never let a man who can channel run free. At least not everyone is behind Elaida. Some of the Blue Ajah are gathering somewhere - I don't know where yet - and I think others have left the Tower, too. Nynaeve said that she was given a message about all the sisters being welcome to return to the Tower by an eyes-and-ears of the Yellow. If Blues and Yellows have both gone, others may have. And if they oppose Elaida, they may support Rand."

She's still somewhat confused and surprised by Moiraine's calm response, but that has caused her to see some of the ramifications - what the split in the Tower might mean for Rand.

Moiraine makes certain that this observation is driven home, and hence the lesson fully realized:

Moiraine sighed, a soft sound. "Do you expect me to be happy that the Tower has split? I am Aes Sedai, Egwene. I gave my life to the Tower long before I ever suspected the Dragon would be Reborn in my lifetime. The Tower has been a bulwark against the Shadow for three thousand years. It has guided rulers to wise decisions, stopped wars before they began, halted wars that did begin. That humankind even remembers that the Dark One waits to escape, that the Last Battle will come, is because of the Tower. The Tower, whole and united. I could almost wish that every sister had sworn to Elaida, whatever happened to Siuan."

I'm guessing that your confusion here is that you're focusing on that first sentence, when the key is instead the last. Moiraine isn't saying that she is wishing that Tower remained whole, and that sisters would swear allegiance to Elaida, she is guiding Egwene to examine why she does not, and under the circumstances, cannot wish that. Hence the nuance "could" rather than that she does wish this.

Egwene, to her credit, learns quickly:

"And Rand?" Egwene kept her voice just as steady, just as smooth. The flames were beginning to put a little warmth into the air, but Moiraine had just added her own chill. "The Dragon Reborn. You yourself said that he cannot be ready for Tarmon Gai'don unless he is allowed his freedom, both to learn and to affect the world. The Tower united could take him prisoner despite all the Aiel in the Waste."

Moiraine smiled a small smile. "You learn. Cool reason is always better than hot words...

Why do you refuse to see that Moiraine has guided Egwene to this realization?

I've already provided most of these passages (and an abridged commentary...) before, but I'll skip ahead again to their closing remarks, since there is another important nugget therein:

"I know you are not giving up, Moiraine. What do you mean to do?

"I mean to deal with the world as I find the world, for as long as I can. At least Rand will be - easier to be around - now that I no longer need try to turn him from what he wants. I suppose I should be happy that he does not make me fetch his wine. He does listen most of the time, even if he seldom gives any sign what he thinks of what I tell him."

Egwene couldn't or wouldn't grasp this addendum.

fionwe1987
03-01-2013, 06:53 PM
Kimon... I'm going to begin recommending this post (the part about Moiraine "guiding" Egwene) to those who miss the artistry of one Felix Pax. The end claim isn't as outrageous as "Valan Luca is the Dragon Reborn", but the road to it is just as funny.

Which is however a completely separate issue. The issue at hand was whether or not Egwene could have provided him with valid and convincing information, information which she had at her disposal, not whether or not Gawyn would have believed her.
Gawyn made it clear right away what the standard of proof he would accept was. Egwene didn't waste time with it, and instead did the one thing she could do: make him promise not to harm Rand.

Using the word "fault" here for RJ is too strong. Was it intentional? Likely the answer to that is yes. Assuming that, would he have realized that this passage would have served as one of the major sources, up to that point, of dissapointment and disapproval of Egwene (alongside her treatment of Mat). The answer here is likely yes again. As for Egwene, the word "fault" is much more fitting.
Oh I don't think either is at fault. Just trying to figure out what the hell you're thinking. Seems you don't know which way you lean anyway...


The Karaethon Cycle...
How? It is a bunch of Prophesies, open to interpretation. Nothing there says anything about the power relationships between these people. Heck, Elayne wouldn't even accept Andor from him, for all that he was the DR. He's the Chief of Cheifs of the Aiel, yet he can't even command a common Aiel warrior to do anything they refuse to do. He's the Coramoor, yet he had to bargain for what he wanted from the Sea Folk.

Rand's power does not come from Prohpesy. It comes from what he has achieved, plus the added confusion of no one knowing where to fit him in the hierarchy because he's unique.

Just look at the entire negotiation for the Dragon's Peace. He couldn't just call the rulers and tell them: This is the law, follow it. Because he had absolutely no authority to do so. And he knew it too, which is why he cleverly engineered the situation so that the rulers would bind themselves to a source of authority they were used to: the Amyrlin. Then he spent his effort convincing her. Which is a strategy that makes no sense if he's any kind of supreme authority.

Incidentally, since the Karaethon Cycle is a bunch of collected Foretellings referring to the Dragon, Elaida's Foretelling rightly belongs there too. And we all know what that said.

I'll walk you through the passage again, though how you can be missing this is surprising.
There's nothing to miss.

The italics here are in the text, but otherwise inconsequential. The key is that Egwene expects that Moiraine should be upset, but instead here is Moiraine's response.



And now Moiraine's response, where she is clearly beginning to guide her towards that aforementioned conclusion:



Here she begins to hint at what Egwene should really be thinking, by mentioning the Dragon, and Sierin, an almost Red Amyrlin. Egwene still needs a bit more prompting though, but she is starting to see what is really important about this development.

Here's Egwene's response:



She's still somewhat confused and surprised by Moiraine's calm response, but that has caused her to see some of the ramifications - what the split in the Tower might mean for Rand.

Moiraine makes certain that this observation is driven home, and hence the lesson fully realized:



I'm guessing that your confusion here is that you're focusing on that first sentence, when the key is instead the last. Moiraine isn't saying that she is wishing that Tower remained whole, and that sisters would swear allegiance to Elaida, she is guiding Egwene to examine why she does not, and under the circumstances, cannot wish that. Hence the nuance "could" rather than that she does wish this.

Egwene, to her credit, learns quickly:



Why do you refuse to see that Moiraine has guided Egwene to this realization?
Because it wasn't a "realization" on Egwene's part? She had exactly the same reaction the moment she found out Elaida was Amyrlin:

Nynaeve's stomach tried to flutter up into her chest. "But how? What has happened to Siuan? Egwene, the Tower doesn't depose an Amyrlin except for something serious. Only two in nearly three thousand years."
"Maybe Rand was serious enough." Egwene's voice was steady, though her eyes were still too wide. "Maybe she became ill with something the Yellows couldn't Heal, or fell down the stairs and broke her neck. What matters is that Elaida is Amyrlin. I don't think she will support Rand as Siuan did."
...
Nynaeve glowered at her, opening her mouth to say that she could too keep her temper and she would smack Egwene's ears if she thought differently, but the other woman gave her no chance. "We must find that gathering of Blue sisters, Nynaeve. If they oppose Elaida, maybe-just maybe- they will support Rand the way Siuan did. Was a town mentioned, or a village? A country, even?"

Egwene only explained her reasoning to Moiraine. She already felt Elaida becoming Amyrlin was a disaster (which is so obvious only the dumbest idiot would need to be guided to it), and she had seen right away that if there was a splinter group, they might be leveraged to support Rand. These things didn't dawn on her after she spoke with Moiraine.

Unless you think there was some telepathic influence from Moiraine at play when Egwene was in TAR... Or are you now going to claim Nynaeve was playing some word games to make Egwene realize what she realized?

Kimon
03-01-2013, 08:30 PM
There's nothing to miss.

Because it wasn't a "realization" on Egwene's part? She had exactly the same reaction the moment she found out Elaida was Amyrlin:

Egwene only explained her reasoning to Moiraine. She already felt Elaida becoming Amyrlin was a disaster (which is so obvious only the dumbest idiot would need to be guided to it), and she had seen right away that if there was a splinter group, they might be leveraged to support Rand. These things didn't dawn on her after she spoke with Moiraine.


You're still missing the point.

The revelation isn't that Elaida will be a bad Amyrlin, or that rebels may support him, it's how that situation, the schism itself will benefit the Dragon, and hence the world. It's not whether or not the rebels will support him, or to what degree Elaida will try to contain his movements. It's that the schism itself will weaken the WT, which is good, since it means that he has a freedom to grow in power because the WT will be too weak and uncoordinated to screw things up for the world.

How many times do I have to post this before you'll actually read it??

"And Rand?" Egwene kept her voice just as steady, just as smooth. The flames were beginning to put a little warmth into the air, but Moiraine had just added her own chill. "The Dragon Reborn. You yourself said that he cannot be ready for Tarmon Gai'don unless he is allowed his freedom, both to learn and to affect the world. The Tower united could take him prisoner despite all the Aiel in the Waste."

Moiraine smiled a small smile. "You learn. Cool reason is always better than hot words...

fionwe1987
03-01-2013, 09:36 PM
You're still missing the point.
I am not, though you certainly shifted the goalposts here. You say below that the revelation isn't about Elaida being bad, or the rebels being useful, but in your previous post, you specifically said that Moiraine referred to Seirin, an almost-Red Amyrlin, to guide Egwene to see that Elaida would oppose Rand. Further, you aid that Moiraine "caused her (Egwene) to see some of the ramifications - what the split in the Tower might mean for Rand."

Except, Egwene already saw those very ramifications before she even spoke to Moiraine. Now you claim, I think, that Moiraine had to tell Egwene that Rand needed freedom. When Egwene told Moiraine "you yourself said..." she isn't indicating that Moiraine saying this is what brought the realization to her. She's saying that Moiraine's current position is inconsistent with what she had said before. And that is what pleases Moiraine, that Egwene is using cool logic, rather than letting her fears and worries overcome her.

The revelation isn't that Elaida will be a bad Amyrlin, or that rebels may support him, it's how that situation, the schism itself will benefit the Dragon, and hence the world. It's not whether or not the rebels will support him, or to what degree Elaida will try to contain his movements. It's that the schism itself will weaken the WT, which is good, since it means that he has a freedom to grow in power because the WT will be too weak and uncoordinated to screw things up for the world.
Moiraine did absolutely nothing to make Egwene think this. Egwene came up with the importance of the Rebels herself, before she met Moiraine. I'm baffled that you think Egwene had to be told by Moiraine than Rand needed freedom.
How many times do I have to post this before you'll actually read it??
You seriously think I didn't read it? You're arguing that it came as a revelation to Egwene that Rand needed freedom. But it did not. When Moiraine was trying to guide him to declare war on Illian, Egwene was rooting for him to do what he wanted. When the Wise Ones spoke of guiding him, Egwene asked them if they really thought he needed guidance:
"Do you think he needs guiding?" Moiraine arched an eyebrow at that, but Egwene ignored it. "He has done what he had to without guidance so far."

What Moiraine and the Wise Ones thought her was that you do guide and help Rand, especially since you're rooting for him. Its laughable that you think Moiraine had to tell Egwene that Rand needed freedom to act, and not be kidnapped by the Tower. As early as tGH, Egwene was putting herself in line to hide him from the Amyrlin. Granted, she didn't know Rand was the Dragon Reborn then. She just thought he was a plain old male channeler destined to go mad, and still she didn't want him captured by Aes Sedai. Do you really want to tell me that somewhere between then and tFoH, Egwene changed her mind and felt Rand needed to be controlled, and then changed her mind because Moiraine told her different? In tSR, Egwene is second only to Nynaeve is questioning Moiraine's plans:


“Will you share your plan for him with us?” Egwene demanded. She was certainly not helping soothe the air now.
“Yes, do,” Elayne said, surprising herself with a cool echo of Egwene’s tone. Confrontation was not her way when it could be avoided; her mother always said it was better to guide people than try to hammer them into line.
...
“So am I desperate,” Moiraine said firmly. “I have dedicated my life to finding him, and I will not let him fail if I can prevent it. I am almost desperate enough to - ” She broke off, pursing her lips. “Let it be enough that I will do what I must.”
“But it isn’t enough,” Egwene said sharply. “What is it you’ll do?”

You seem to have forgotten that Egwene, while nowhere near as suspicious of Moiraine as Nynaeve was, wasn't exactly falling for the idea that she should tell Rand what to do either. She certainly had issues with the way Rand dealt with Moiraine at times (unlike Nynaeve), but that didn't translate into a belief that he should do as she said. Only in the Waste did she lose suspicion of Moiraine and grow to trust her fully, which, of course, Rand noticed, leading to the increasing distance between Rand and Egwene. And all of it came full circle with Moiraine being the one to bridge the divide between Egwene and Rand in aMoL.

So please, before you put some ridiculous spin on one paragraph, do read the rest of the books. She didn't need to be told that Rand needed freedom.

As for Egwene not taking Moiraine's advice to heart, that is wrong too.

Moiraine leaned over to put a hand on her arm, a look of affection on her face. "We cannot hold his hand forever, Egwene. He has learned to walk. He is learning to run. We can only hope he learns before his enemies catch him. And, of course, continue to advise him. To guide him when we can."

Give him freedom to learn, hope he does, and guide and advice him as possible. That's precisely what Egwene did.

"Don't you look at me like that, Siuan." It was easier to be angry than afraid, easy to mask fear in anger. She would never be collared like that again! "You've taken every advantage since you were freed from the Oaths. If you hadn't lied in your teeth, we'd all be in Salidar, without an army, sitting on our hands and waiting for a miracle. Well, you would be. They'd never have summoned me to be Amyrlin without your lie about Logain and the Reds. Elaida would reign supreme, and in a year, nobody would remember how she usurped the Amyrlin Seat. She'd destroy the Tower, for sure. You know she'd mishandle everything about Rand. I would not be surprised if she had tried to kidnap him by now, except that she's concerned with us. Well, maybe not kidnap, but she'd have done something. Likely, Aes Sedai would be fighting Asha'man today, and never mind Tarmon Gai'don waiting over the horizon."

Her three major reasons for leading the Rebellion and wanting Elaida toppled include two about not interfering with Rand. And to back both up, her first act as Amyrlin was to allow Elayne and Nynaeve to go to Ebou Dar so they could find a ter'angreal they thought would bind the Rebel Hall to Rand. And her most daring act was to free Logain in the hope that he'd join Rand and be a part of the Black Tower. The first fizzled out so far as the original intent went, but the second was certainly exactly what Rand needed.

"Elaida," she said levelly, eyeing Arathelle and the seated nobles in turn, "is a usurper who has violated what lies at the very heart of the White Tower. I am the Amyrlin Seat." She was surprised at how stately she managed to sound, how cool. But not as surprised as she once would have been. The Light help her, she was the Amyrlin Seat. "We go to Tar Valon to remove Elaida and try her, but that is the White Tower's business, and none of yours except to know the truth. This so-called Black Tower also is our business; men who can channel have always been the White Tower's affair. We will deal with them as we choose, when the time is ripe, but I assure you, that time is not now. More important matters must take precedence."
She heard movement among the Sitters behind her. An actual shifting on benches and the crisp swishing of divided skirts being adjusted. At least some must be severely agitated. Well, several had suggested that the Black Tower might be dealt with in passing. Not one believed there could be more than a dozen or so men there at most, no matter what they heard; after all, it simply was not possible that hundreds of men would want to channel. Then again, it might have been the realization that Egwene was not going to name either Romanda or Lelaine.

She also used the chaos in the Tower to justify not fighting the Black Tower. An enormous boon to Rand. 50 sisters sent in small groups the BT could handle. How would it have dealt with nearly 400 sisters who could Travel straight in an surprise them? How many of Rand's plans would have been destroyed?

And this was no small risk to take. Saidin wasn't even cleansed then. But Egwene believed that Tarmon Gai'don had to come first, that interfering with Rand's plan was wrong. She believed that she could trust him to have some control over them:
I will not let him be murdered, and I cannot allow him to be gentled. If Merana really has put Rand's back up somehow, that will be tossing fat-wood in the fire. I just wish I could be sure he will go to Rand and join him instead of running off the Light knows where, doing the Light knows what. At least that way there might be some way to control what he does.

How you can claim she didn't listen to Moiraine, I don't know.

Kimon
03-01-2013, 10:06 PM
I am not, though you certainly shifted the goalposts here. You say below that the revelation isn't about Elaida being bad, or the rebels being useful, but in your previous post, you specifically said that Moiraine referred to Seirin, an almost-Red Amyrlin, to guide Egwene to see that Elaida would oppose Rand. Further, you aid that Moiraine "caused her (Egwene) to see some of the ramifications - what the split in the Tower might mean for Rand."



Fionwe, I'm not shifting the goalposts, that was exactly what I was pointing out about that passage all along. Sierin was just one sign-post. The key isn't however in the fact that Elaida, like Sierin, would oppose allowing the Dragon freedom of operation, but to make her think about the benefits of the schism for his freedom to operate and grow in power by taking advantage of the chaos and the instability of the Tower, so that by the time the Tower re-stabilized, that whoever was in charge of the Tower by the time (as it happened, Egwene) they got their act back together, that he would be too powerful for them to try to bully him into doing what they thought was right (not breaking the seals...), rather than what he thought was right.

Elaida was the best thing that could have happened to him. Does that make her a good Amyrlin? Of course not. But she was exactly what the world, and what Rand needed at the time - an incredibly bad Amyrlin.

fionwe1987
03-01-2013, 11:18 PM
Fionwe, I'm not shifting the goalposts, that was exactly what I was pointing out about that passage all along. Sierin was just one sign-post. The key isn't however in the fact that Elaida, like Sierin, would oppose allowing the Dragon freedom of operation, but to make her think about the benefits of the schism for his freedom to operate and grow in power by taking advantage of the chaos and the instability of the Tower, so that by the time the Tower re-stabilized, that whoever was in charge of the Tower by the time (as it happened, Egwene) they got their act back together, that he would be too powerful for them to try to bully him into doing what they thought was right (not breaking the seals...), rather than what he thought was right.
Moiraine did not make Egwene realize this. Till that point, Moiraine was banking on Siuan being the good, reasonable Amyrlin who will give Rand the freedom he needs. Her position was that a Tower schism in no way guarantees Rand's freedom (as indeed it didn't). She obviously did not want Elaida to be Amyrlin, and she would probably have worked to unseat her if she could. But her position was that the benefits of a divided Tower were not so great, and the benefits of a united Tower were lost in the process.

It is Egwene, Nynaeve and Elayne who thought different. These three made it, at various times, their mission to first find the Blues, then to make the Rebels a serious threat to Elaida, and allied to Rand. If you want proof that Moiraine didn't care, just look at the fact that she never seemingly contacted the Blue eyes and ears in Cairhein to find out if they knew where the Blues were meeting. Egwene had already told her she was trying to find out, and if Moiraine cared about the schism, she'd have told Egwene so she'd have Aes Sedai she may be able to rely on after Moiraine dissaperaed (as she knew she would soon), but Moiraine never bothered. Because she viewed the schism like Cadsuane did. As something moronic, and less than necessary to carry out their missions with the Dragon.

Kimon
03-02-2013, 12:08 AM
Moiraine did not make Egwene realize this. Till that point, Moiraine was banking on Siuan being the good, reasonable Amyrlin who will give Rand the freedom he needs. Her position was that a Tower schism in no way guarantees Rand's freedom (as indeed it didn't). She obviously did not want Elaida to be Amyrlin, and she would probably have worked to unseat her if she could. But her position was that the benefits of a divided Tower were not so great, and the benefits of a united Tower were lost in the process.



You keep saying this Fionwe, but in so doing you continually ignore what Moiraine explicitly says both here, and indeed to Siuan in tGH - albeit long prior to the schism, but where she again speaks of the need to allow him to operate freely for a time, to gain in strength and independence. In tGH, her intentions were to have him seize Illian first, and use that as his first base of power, a plan which went awry, but instead he gained Tear, and then the Aiel. Then Elaida's coup offered the great boon. Your obstinacy on this point really is alarming, Fionwe. Moiraine is quite clear in that passage from tFoH - she makes quite clear that she sees the schism as clearly beneficial for Rand.

It is Egwene, Nynaeve and Elayne who thought different. These three made it, at various times, their mission to first find the Blues, then to make the Rebels a serious threat to Elaida, and allied to Rand.

Egwene does try to get the rebels to support Rand, and even to come to grips with the reality of a world with Asha'man, but her primary and immediate goal was focusing on re-uniting the Tower. Nynaeve and Elayne focused on the Bowl at first, then Elayne on taking the throne of Andor, and preparing it for TG. Nynaeve went to Rand and helped him prepare for the war itself.

If you want proof that Moiraine didn't care, just look at the fact that she never seemingly contacted the Blue eyes and ears in Cairhein to find out if they knew where the Blues were meeting.

This is just silly. She knew that she was soon to meet with Lanfear at the Docks. Contacting the Blues was inconsequential.

Because she viewed the schism like Cadsuane did. As something moronic, and less than necessary to carry out their missions with the Dragon.

Cadsuane, like Moiraine, recognized that the Dragon was more important than the Tower.

fionwe1987
03-02-2013, 04:05 AM
You keep saying this Fionwe, but in so doing you continually ignore what Moiraine explicitly says both here, and indeed to Siuan in tGH - albeit long prior to the schism, but where she again speaks of the need to allow him to operate freely for a time, to gain in strength and independence. In tGH, her intentions were to have him seize Illian first, and use that as his first base of power, a plan which went awry, but instead he gained Tear, and then the Aiel. Then Elaida's coup offered the great boon. Your obstinacy on this point really is alarming, Fionwe. Moiraine is quite clear in that passage from tFoH - she makes quite clear that she sees the schism as clearly beneficial for Rand.
This is the last time I'm replying to this nonsense. Yes, Moiraine wanted Rand to operate with freedom. No, this never translated to wishing for, or approving of, a Tower schism.

Moiraine sighed, a soft sound. "Do you expect me to be happy that the White Tower has split apart? I am Aes Sedai, Egwene. I gave my life to the Tower long before I ever suspected the Dragon would, be Reborn in my lifetime. The Tower has been a bulwark against the Shadow for three thousand years. It has guided rulers to wise decisions, stopped wars before they began, halted wars that did begin. That humankind even remembers that the Dark One waits to escape, that the Last Battle will come, is because of the Tower. The Tower, whole and united. I could almost wish that every sister had sworn to Elaida, whatever happened to Siuan."

This is Moiraine's position. And its a fair one, don't get me wrong. Her stance is that the Tower united means something important, has achieved something important. She is not happy that the Tower split apart. The Tower was her home before she ever knew the Dragon would be born, as she says here. It means something to her.

And she is also aware that a divided Tower is far from a safety net for Rand:

But you forget that only thirteen sisters linked can shield any man from saidin, and even if they do not know the trick of tying flows, fewer can hold that shield."

And she was perfectly right about this. The Tower schism was less useful as a way to keep the Tower out of Rand's affairs than as a way to place Egwene in the Amyrlin Seat, though both those are tied up.

Egwene does try to get the rebels to support Rand, and even to come to grips with the reality of a world with Asha'man, but her primary and immediate goal was focusing on re-uniting the Tower. Nynaeve and Elayne focused on the Bowl at first, then Elayne on taking the throne of Andor, and preparing it for TG. Nynaeve went to Rand and helped him prepare for the war itself.
Thank you for restating my point...

This is just silly. She knew that she was soon to meet with Lanfear at the Docks. Contacting the Blues was inconsequential.
How, exactly? Contacting them, and getting them in touch with Egwene, and letting them know there was an avenue to Rand would have gone a long way to stabilize any schism. Moiraine is too good at the Game of Houses not to know that. And she'd have known which Blue agents in Cairhein to contact to see if there was any info on a gathering of Blues. Moiraine showed no interest because she didn't want the Tower divided.

Cadsuane, like Moiraine, recognized that the Dragon was more important than the Tower.
And like Moiraine, deplored the division in the Tower:

"I take it by your presence, Merana," Cadsuane said abruptly, "that tales of the boy submitting to Elaida are false. Don't look so surprised, child. Did you think I didn't know your... associations?" She gave that word such a twist, it sounded as filthy as any soldier's expletive...

"For the rest," she said carefully, "I have reached no decision as yet."
"A wise decision, that," Cadsuane murmured, with a pointed look at Merana. "It seems that in the last few years far too many sisters have forgotten they possess brains, or discretion. There was a time when Aes Sedai reached their decisions after calm deliberation, with the good of the Tower always in the front of their thoughts. Just remember what the Sanche girl got from meddling with al'Thor, Annoura. Walk too near a forgefire, and you can be burned badly."
...

"Elaida is overambitious, as near as I can make out," Cadsuane broke in, leaning forward so abruptly that Merana and Annoura both started back on the bed, though she was not looking at them, "and she may be a catastrophe simmering, but she is still the Amyrlin Seat, raised by the Hall of the Tower in full accordance with the laws of the Tower."

A Tower divided, in the end, would have been a bad thing for Rand too. Certainly, the Last Battle would have been a wholly more desperate venture with no Tower to lend its strength. Neither Moiraine nor Cadsuane was pleased at that prospect, though both realized the real danger Elaida posed too, of course.

Your insistence that Moiraine was happy the Tower split is flat out contradicted by the text. You claim those words were Aes Sedai word games she was playing to get Egwene to realize something (which Egwene had already realized, but that's a different matter). You're basically saying that Moiraine got news that Siuan was deposed, and in that very instant went from wanting Rand to be guided by the Tower and helped by Siuan to wanting a Tower divided to leave Rand alone? Further, she put on some Masterpiece Theatre, sighing and acting sad to make Egwene realize this, when before she has always been straightforward with Egwene?

The sheer absurdity of the blindness on display here is stunning. We get it, you don't think Egwene can have a good thought about Rand on her own. Keep believing that. But let's end this ludicrous misinterpretation of the text right here.

Kimon
03-02-2013, 10:58 AM
This is the last time I'm replying to this nonsense. Yes, Moiraine wanted Rand to operate with freedom. No, this never translated to wishing for, or approving of, a Tower schism.



And you continue to misread that passage, but you're right about one thing, this is nonsense, just not mine.