PDA

View Full Version : Who deserves a glorious death?


Frenzy
04-21-2013, 11:46 AM
At JordanCon, just got out of a day 3 aMoL dish/vent panel where someone was complaining that they felt Lan was cheated of a glorious death by surviving his sheathing the sword duel with Demandred. Felt it lessened his character. Ishara & I almost jumped chairs to box their ears, because the same apparently didn't apply to Moraine.

We were almost foaming at the mouth we were so livid. Good times!

Kimon
04-21-2013, 11:58 AM
At JordanCon, just got out of a day 3 aMoL dish/vent panel where someone was complaining that they felt Lan was cheated of a glorious death by surviving his sheathing the sword duel with Demandred. Felt it lessened his character. Ishara & I almost jumped chairs to box their ears, because the same apparently didn't apply to Moraine.

We were almost foaming at the mouth we were so livid. Good times!

Moiraine's is the more egregious, especially as Min's viewing could have been fulfilled simply by having her re-appear as a Heroine of the Horn.

Another obvious point of pique is the disappearance of several important characters - namely Narishma and Flinn. I found it incredibly annoying that BS felt the need to build up such a previously insignificant character (Androl) and employ him as an essentially primary actor rather than using well-established asha'man like Flinn and Narishma.

And, of course, there is Logain. He was blatantly cheated of his glory.

Ishara
04-22-2013, 11:28 AM
Well, you'll hear about Logain when Terez posts her write-up of our midnight meeting with Brandon, but essentially he told us that he felt that Logain's glory was yet to come. He hasn't been cheated of anything - we just didn't see it.

It was really frustrating for me to hear at the panel all of the complaining about how so-and-so didn't get their moment in the sun, their reunion, their glorious death. This is life - and war. You simply can't expect that we would have had closure for every single last character, nor that all characters who died had to do so gloriously, heroically, or even notably. Sometimes good people die for no good reason - and it's true in the books.

I said it more than once this weekend: just because we like a character, just because they were heroes in our eyes doesn't make them real Heroes, and doesn't mean that they "deserve" anything.

ShadowbaneX
04-22-2013, 12:57 PM
now I'm even more sad I missed this...stupid school. There's gonna be another one next year, right?

Kimon
04-22-2013, 04:01 PM
Well, you'll hear about Logain when Terez posts her write-up of our midnight meeting with Brandon, but essentially he told us that he felt that Logain's glory was yet to come. He hasn't been cheated of anything - we just didn't see it.

It was really frustrating for me to hear at the panel all of the complaining about how so-and-so didn't get their moment in the sun, their reunion, their glorious death. This is life - and war. You simply can't expect that we would have had closure for every single last character, nor that all characters who died had to do so gloriously, heroically, or even notably. Sometimes good people die for no good reason - and it's true in the books.

I said it more than once this weekend: just because we like a character, just because they were heroes in our eyes doesn't make them real Heroes, and doesn't mean that they "deserve" anything.

I only felt that Logain was a problem because of Min's viewing, which, as was likewise the case with Cadsuane's, was quite unconvincingly fulfilled. BS claiming that this was just a case of still unfulfilled seems quite a bit like an admission that he sort of mucked that one up.

Leanne
04-23-2013, 07:55 AM
now I'm even more sad I missed this...stupid school. There's gonna be another one next year, right?

They already announced the dates for next year are April 11th - 13th. TwotCast are the toastmasters and Patrick Rothfuss is a guest!

Ishara
04-23-2013, 08:54 AM
I don't agree at all, Kimon. The series may have ended, but the World of the Wheel hasn't - life goes on. These people will have futures and I don't see it as beyond the realm of possibility that Logain's glory is in his. That being said, I actually feel that his saving the women and children of Andor was, in fact, glorious. Either way works for me.

yks 6nnetu hing
04-23-2013, 09:12 AM
uh. correct me if I'm wrong but with Egwene dead, the White Tower in quite an upheaval (even if Cads gets put on the Amyrlin seat, she'll not remain there for centuries to consolidate, now will she?), Logain will most probably be the most prominent Good Guy Channeler in the coming times. His glory will be in the definition of the Black Tower, and male channelers, and how exactly they will relate to the White Tower, the nation leaders etc. Though his defining moment in Legends will still probably be the LB, and the way he saved those women and children.


As for Lan, he should have died dead. And Moiraine should have remained dead.

GonzoTheGreat
04-23-2013, 09:30 AM
uh. correct me if I'm wrong but with Egwene dead, the White Tower in quite an upheaval (even if Cads gets put on the Amyrlin seat, she'll not remain there for centuries to consolidate, now will she?), Logain will most probably be the most prominent Good Guy Channeler in the coming times.
Well, there is still plenty of Nynaeve, isn't there?

SauceyBlueConfetti
04-23-2013, 09:31 AM
Ok, cuz the cat is out of the bag regarding Brandon's comments to us that he sees the glory for Logain as still to come (and as Terez pointed out, that is his interpretation, not sure if Maria, or Harriet, or Alan agree)...

In one of the panels I made a comment that Logain will be remembered by the masses for what he did for them.

I compare it to childbirth (WEG). For those of you who don't understand that comment, everyone, I MEAN EVERYONE told me when I was pregnant that delivery really really really hurts, but its the type of pain you "forget". Uh, yeah, sure--I didn't believe them. But you do. So...to compare....

The coming of the Last Battle for most of the normal, everyday folks is just weird weather, failing crops, odd happenings, darkness, a sense of evil in the air. They have heard forever that the Last Battle is coming. But the Dragon is reborn now? Here? In their own lifetime? Disbelief and denial are keys to this, then acceptance, then hope. Then, rumors of armies coalescing, fights begin, horrors imagined and on and on.

Then boom. The Battle. For those not in the thick of fighting, it is over fairly quickly. They hear of Trollocs, Fades, Aes Sedai, men who can channel, armies clashing. But what to they hear of the Dark One? He is still in myth status, and likely will remain that way. The Dragon is gone. Did they fight? How do they know? What proof is there?

Ok. So switch scenes. Villagers with families are being slaughtered and in rides a MAN WHO CAN CHANNEL. (Did he ride? err, no, but this is all about legend derived from memories). The Man and his Men save them. They witness this. They see the Seals. Logain is the PICTURE of the Last Battle for a large group of normal folks. He saved them. They saw it. These stories will spread faster, and be eaisier to believe.

So the scariest ideas (here is the comparison to childbirth), the absolute worst of the worst--the Dark One touching the world--slowly begins to fade as an real happening and is replaced by something tangible. A Man channeled in front of them. And saved them.

Logain will grow in glory as the image of winning the Last Battle just as the Dark One/Rand fighting in a hidden place, unwitnessed, begins to fade.

Logain will lead the Asha'man on to greater things (presumably), and grow in stature in the world while Rand is...poof...gone.



Footnote: Ten of us. Alone with Brandon. Answering our questions. For two hours. Others have met him, but that was my first experience other than a brief earlier introduction. Awesome. Freaking Awesome.

Ishara
04-23-2013, 02:21 PM
LOL. It was pretty awesome.

Also, Brandon was very clear that Cadsuane was to end up as Amyrlin (in his words, she got just what she deserved).

And Lan was supposed to live, so that he could rebuild Malkier with Nynaeve. But Brandon didn't refute (or support) the theory that Rand brought Lan back to life....so, there's that?

ChubbyAiel
04-23-2013, 03:16 PM
And, of course, there is Logain. He was blatantly cheated of his glory.

I don't think he was. By the end of it, he was a pretty sad character full of fear of being dominated again and, as we all know from Yoda, fear is the path to the dark side. Logain was doing his level best to get Taim's sa'angreal when Androl came for him. Logain wasn't "cheated of his glory", he was saved by it. Imagine if he'd got hold of that sa'angreal, what a despot his own fear would have made him. But then on top of that, he received an admiration he could never have hoped for, from people who would have otherwise hated him. Logain's own thoughts say that he desires to be stronger than anyone else, and feared by all. Instead he gets respect and to be seen as a hero, all because instead of going for glory he very simply did the right thing, and so glory came to him. I genuinely thought that was actually one of the best bits of the book.

But, yes, Lan was cheated and I actually thought as I was reading it that he had come back as a Hero of the Horn, only for that to be snatched from me at the end of the paragraph. If Nynaeve had discovered herself to be pregnant, Malkier could have lived on that way while Lan went to a glorious death. Leaving a pregnant wife behind would have also made his death that much more of a sacrifice. By contrast Egwene and Gawain both died, so in a sense neither left anyone behind, which makes their deaths too neat, without any real human tragedy, especially as we know for a fact everyone is reborn in the world of the Wheel.

Glad to see Egwene get her glory, though, having said that. I've always been a fan.

Ishara
04-23-2013, 05:34 PM
I don't think he was. By the end of it, he was a pretty sad character full of fear of being dominated again and, as we all know from Yoda, fear is the path to the dark side. Logain was doing his level best to get Taim's sa'angreal when Androl came for him. Logain wasn't "cheated of his glory", he was saved by it. Imagine if he'd got hold of that sa'angreal, what a despot his own fear would have made him. But then on top of that, he received an admiration he could never have hoped for, from people who would have otherwise hated him. Logain's own thoughts say that he desires to be stronger than anyone else, and feared by all. Instead he gets respect and to be seen as a hero, all because instead of going for glory he very simply did the right thing, and so glory came to him. I genuinely thought that was actually one of the best bits of the book.

Beautifully said. :)

Tollingtoy
04-23-2013, 05:40 PM
Ok, cuz the cat is out of the bag regarding Brandon's comments to us that he sees the glory for Logain as still to come (and as Terez pointed out, that is his interpretation, not sure if Maria, or Harriet, or Alan agree)...

In one of the panels I made a comment that Logain will be remembered by the masses for what he did for them.

I compare it to childbirth (WEG). For those of you who don't understand that comment, everyone, I MEAN EVERYONE told me when I was pregnant that delivery really really really hurts, but its the type of pain you "forget". Uh, yeah, sure--I didn't believe them. But you do. So...to compare....

The coming of the Last Battle for most of the normal, everyday folks is just weird weather, failing crops, odd happenings, darkness, a sense of evil in the air. They have heard forever that the Last Battle is coming. But the Dragon is reborn now? Here? In their own lifetime? Disbelief and denial are keys to this, then acceptance, then hope. Then, rumors of armies coalescing, fights begin, horrors imagined and on and on.

Then boom. The Battle. For those not in the thick of fighting, it is over fairly quickly. They hear of Trollocs, Fades, Aes Sedai, men who can channel, armies clashing. But what to they hear of the Dark One? He is still in myth status, and likely will remain that way. The Dragon is gone. Did they fight? How do they know? What proof is there?

Ok. So switch scenes. Villagers with families are being slaughtered and in rides a MAN WHO CAN CHANNEL. (Did he ride? err, no, but this is all about legend derived from memories). The Man and his Men save them. They witness this. They see the Seals. Logain is the PICTURE of the Last Battle for a large group of normal folks. He saved them. They saw it. These stories will spread faster, and be eaisier to believe.

So the scariest ideas (here is the comparison to childbirth), the absolute worst of the worst--the Dark One touching the world--slowly begins to fade as an real happening and is replaced by something tangible. A Man channeled in front of them. And saved them.

Logain will grow in glory as the image of winning the Last Battle just as the Dark One/Rand fighting in a hidden place, unwitnessed, begins to fade.

Logain will lead the Asha'man on to greater things (presumably), and grow in stature in the world while Rand is...poof...gone.



Footnote: Ten of us. Alone with Brandon. Answering our questions. For two hours. Others have met him, but that was my first experience other than a brief earlier introduction. Awesome. Freaking Awesome.



It's a nice parallel to Demandred, who let his envy over LTT's glory consume him. Logain held on and controlled that envy and even though he wasn't actually the Dragon, he'll probably be the one who ends up "winning" the LB as legend fades to myth......

Southpaw2012
04-23-2013, 06:01 PM
Ok, cuz the cat is out of the bag regarding Brandon's comments to us that he sees the glory for Logain as still to come (and as Terez pointed out, that is his interpretation, not sure if Maria, or Harriet, or Alan agree)...

In one of the panels I made a comment that Logain will be remembered by the masses for what he did for them.

I compare it to childbirth (WEG). For those of you who don't understand that comment, everyone, I MEAN EVERYONE told me when I was pregnant that delivery really really really hurts, but its the type of pain you "forget". Uh, yeah, sure--I didn't believe them. But you do. So...to compare....

The coming of the Last Battle for most of the normal, everyday folks is just weird weather, failing crops, odd happenings, darkness, a sense of evil in the air. They have heard forever that the Last Battle is coming. But the Dragon is reborn now? Here? In their own lifetime? Disbelief and denial are keys to this, then acceptance, then hope. Then, rumors of armies coalescing, fights begin, horrors imagined and on and on.

Then boom. The Battle. For those not in the thick of fighting, it is over fairly quickly. They hear of Trollocs, Fades, Aes Sedai, men who can channel, armies clashing. But what to they hear of the Dark One? He is still in myth status, and likely will remain that way. The Dragon is gone. Did they fight? How do they know? What proof is there?

Ok. So switch scenes. Villagers with families are being slaughtered and in rides a MAN WHO CAN CHANNEL. (Did he ride? err, no, but this is all about legend derived from memories). The Man and his Men save them. They witness this. They see the Seals. Logain is the PICTURE of the Last Battle for a large group of normal folks. He saved them. They saw it. These stories will spread faster, and be eaisier to believe.

So the scariest ideas (here is the comparison to childbirth), the absolute worst of the worst--the Dark One touching the world--slowly begins to fade as an real happening and is replaced by something tangible. A Man channeled in front of them. And saved them.

Logain will grow in glory as the image of winning the Last Battle just as the Dark One/Rand fighting in a hidden place, unwitnessed, begins to fade.

Logain will lead the Asha'man on to greater things (presumably), and grow in stature in the world while Rand is...poof...gone.



Footnote: Ten of us. Alone with Brandon. Answering our questions. For two hours. Others have met him, but that was my first experience other than a brief earlier introduction. Awesome. Freaking Awesome.


I completely agree. Such a great experience. I'm sure you guys noticed where I was going with my question to him about Cadsuane when I asked who's idea it was to make Cadsuane Amyrlin. I wanted to see if he could shed more light on if Team Jordan killed Egwene or if RJ planned it that way. His answer of, "I was instructed to make Cadsuane Amyrlin" was interesting. It at least shows that either the notes said so or Team Jordan told him to.

GonzoTheGreat
04-24-2013, 03:01 AM
Of course, Logain is still going to dig up that sa'angreal eventually. As the prophecy says "he who draws it out shall follow after". That wasn't about Callandor, even though Rand thought it was.

Weiramon
04-25-2013, 02:34 PM
I don't think he was. By the end of it, he was a pretty sad character full of fear of being dominated again and, as we all know from Yoda, fear is the path to the dark side. Logain was doing his level best to get Taim's sa'angreal when Androl came for him. Logain wasn't "cheated of his glory", he was saved by it. Imagine if he'd got hold of that sa'angreal, what a despot his own fear would have made him. But then on top of that, he received an admiration he could never have hoped for, from people who would have otherwise hated him. Logain's own thoughts say that he desires to be stronger than anyone else, and feared by all. Instead he gets respect and to be seen as a hero, all because instead of going for glory he very simply did the right thing, and so glory came to him. I genuinely thought that was actually one of the best bits of the book.

Burn my eyes, you make "despot" sound as though it were an insult.

Frenzy
05-04-2013, 04:17 PM
Of course, Logain is still going to dig up that sa'angreal eventually. As the prophecy says "he who draws it out shall follow after". That wasn't about Callandor, even though Rand thought it was.


TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 21 - Into the Heart

"Perhaps it will help if you know it comes from the Prophecies. "Into the heart he thrusts his sword, into the heart, to hold their hearts. Who draws it out shall follow after, What hand can grasp that fearful blade? "You see? Straight from the Prophecies."

How is Demandred's shiny even remotely tied to this prophecy?

GonzoTheGreat
05-05-2013, 03:46 AM
How is Demandred's shiny even remotely tied to this prophecy?
Uh-oh!

I thought to start out by pointing out that Lan thrust his sword into Demandred's heart, and then work on from there. But upon second thought, I've decided to leave this as an exercise for the reader.

Zombie Sammael
05-06-2013, 12:06 AM
Are we allowed to pick other Theorylanders?

Ishara
05-06-2013, 02:43 PM
Neither relevant to the discussion at hand, or amusing. On topic comments, please.

On that note, I did get a confirmation from Brandon that Faile (and others) knew that Davram was not a trus Darkfriend, and that his actions were a direct result of the manipulations of Compulsion. Which means that he and Deira died glorious deaths, vindicated, and that their daughter didn't lose her parents thinking they were traitors.

Truthfully, I maintain that the manipulation of the Great Captians was one of the bigger tragedies of the Last Battle. Who knows how long Graendal had been working her weaves, but that these men, who spent their entire lives fighting the Shadow and paying for each inch of soil lost to the Dark with blood, now have reputations that will forever be tainted by the fact that they were Compelled...it has long-lasting implucations, and the stroes that could have been written about them now may never ne written; or worse, could be about their turning. So, I'm happy that Faile knew that her Father was still a good man when he died.

yks 6nnetu hing
05-07-2013, 01:31 AM
On that note, I did get a confirmation from Brandon that Faile (and others) knew that Davram was not a trus Darkfriend, and that his actions were a direct result of the manipulations of Compulsion. Which means that he and Deira died glorious deaths, vindicated, and that their daughter didn't lose her parents thinking they were traitors.

Truthfully, I maintain that the manipulation of the Great Captians was one of the bigger tragedies of the Last Battle. Who knows how long Graendal had been working her weaves, but that these men, who spent their entire lives fighting the Shadow and paying for each inch of soil lost to the Dark with blood, now have reputations that will forever be tainted by the fact that they were Compelled...it has long-lasting implucations, and the stroes that could have been written about them now may never ne written; or worse, could be about their turning. So, I'm happy that Faile knew that her Father was still a good man when he died.

On a different angle, I thought that was *finally* a Really Clever Evil move by the Shadow. I mean, let's face it, so far most of the evilness has been focusing on trying to kill Rand or any of the other main characters; with two attempts to Compel or supplant leaders of nations (Illian and Andor) or infiltrate the Channeler organizations. The problem has been though, that because the efforts were not coordinated, they fell through - in part because the plans of one Chosen clashed with the plans of another. But this was simply beautifully evil - a coordinated attack on all the leaders of the army of the Light. After all, the last Battle was going on simultaneously between the DO and Rand and the armies outside, if the DO had won the battle on the fields, would Rand have won against the DO? methinks no.

Ishara
05-07-2013, 09:15 AM
No, they were certainly refelctive of each other. Ugh, Graendal.

fionwe1987
05-07-2013, 01:58 PM
On a different angle, I thought that was *finally* a Really Clever Evil move by the Shadow. I mean, let's face it, so far most of the evilness has been focusing on trying to kill Rand or any of the other main characters; with two attempts to Compel or supplant leaders of nations (Illian and Andor) or infiltrate the Channeler organizations. The problem has been though, that because the efforts were not coordinated, they fell through - in part because the plans of one Chosen clashed with the plans of another. But this was simply beautifully evil - a coordinated attack on all the leaders of the army of the Light. After all, the last Battle was going on simultaneously between the DO and Rand and the armies outside, if the DO had won the battle on the fields, would Rand have won against the DO? methinks no.
Well yes, it was a great move. Pity it had to come at the expense of making the Light side look like morons. Rand didn't bother to warn everyone that there were people around who could manipulate you from dreams. Egwene inexplicably forgot about this, as did Nynaeve and Elaine. Bryne somehow lost the protection the Warder bond gives...

Wish this was better executed. But it was the best move by the Shadow in a long time, that's for sure.

Kimon
05-07-2013, 10:48 PM
Well yes, it was a great move. Pity it had to come at the expense of making the Light side look like morons. Rand didn't bother to warn everyone that there were people around who could manipulate you from dreams. Egwene inexplicably forgot about this, as did Nynaeve and Elaine. Bryne somehow lost the protection the Warder bond gives...

Wish this was better executed. But it was the best move by the Shadow in a long time, that's for sure.

Well, in Rand and Nynaeve's defense, they did both have good reason to believe that Graendal was dead, not to mention the fact that they were both quite busy elsewhere and hence incapable of noting oddities in behavior of the captains.

That still left Moghedien, whose modus operandi should obviously have been well-known enough that certain precautions should reasonably have been put in place. But aside from having some of the surviving dream-trained sisters or Wise Ones watching their dreams, there was little else in the way of obvious precautions that could have been taken. They could have obviously encouraged each of the captains to be bonded by an Aes Sedai, but the ease with which Bryne was manipulated would seem to indicate that Moiraine's assumptions about the safeties extended by the bond were not as extensive as assumed.

Rand al'Fain
05-08-2013, 01:44 AM
Neither relevant to the discussion at hand, or amusing. On topic comments, please.

On that note, I did get a confirmation from Brandon that Faile (and others) knew that Davram was not a trus Darkfriend, and that his actions were a direct result of the manipulations of Compulsion. Which means that he and Deira died glorious deaths, vindicated, and that their daughter didn't lose her parents thinking they were traitors.

Truthfully, I maintain that the manipulation of the Great Captians was one of the bigger tragedies of the Last Battle. Who knows how long Graendal had been working her weaves, but that these men, who spent their entire lives fighting the Shadow and paying for each inch of soil lost to the Dark with blood, now have reputations that will forever be tainted by the fact that they were Compelled...it has long-lasting implucations, and the stroes that could have been written about them now may never ne written; or worse, could be about their turning. So, I'm happy that Faile knew that her Father was still a good man when he died.On that note, of the Great Captains falling to Graendal, Ituralde actually resisted it (who would have thought PTSD could actually come in handy for once?) to the end of Tarmon Gaidon. And survived to become the next king of his country.

GonzoTheGreat
05-08-2013, 02:50 AM
Well yes, it was a great move. Pity it had to come at the expense of making the Light side look like morons. Rand didn't bother to warn everyone that there were people around who could manipulate you from dreams. Egwene inexplicably forgot about this, as did Nynaeve and Elaine. Bryne somehow lost the protection the Warder bond gives...
Well, in Rand's defense, he first learned about this from a random AS (Moiraine) who he accidentally met and who then happened to tell him about it. Which suggests that other AS would (could, at least) also have known this, and thus could have tried to take some precautions.
Then there's the fact that this was a known method from the War of the Power, so based on that the AS also should have considered the possibility that it would be used again.

Graendal was not the only one who could possibly do this, of course. We know that the Keystone Coven had been using a crude version of this method on Amathera. It was known (to Rand, who might have passed this on to others) that at least Ishamael/Moridin and Lanfear/Cyndane were still around with the ability to do this kind of thing too.

The thing that still surprises me most is that the WOs said "TAR is getting very dangerous, so we will no longer go there". Were they scared?

Ishara
05-08-2013, 09:29 AM
On that note, of the Great Captains falling to Graendal, Ituralde actually resisted it (who would have thought PTSD could actually come in handy for once?) to the end of Tarmon Gaidon. And survived to become the next king of his country.

Yes, and I suppose that's the one saving grace (although, we don't find out what happens to Agelmar, do we?) of all of that.Ituralde survived (and I hope that his wife and children did as well) to prove his allegiance to the Light for those who doubt. But, I wouldn't call it a happy ending for him, just happier than death.

Tollingtoy
05-08-2013, 03:53 PM
I wasn't really impressed with this tactic simply because if it was so effective, why did she wait until the last book to first use it? Why not compel Bashere or Byrne in book 6 if it is so easily done? What about Elaida, Tuon or even Mat?

Ishara
05-08-2013, 07:26 PM
I think it was very effective exactly as it was used. To use it earlier, in a less fraught time would have opened her up to detection and then allow others to defend themselves against it. By saving it to such a pivotal moment and doing all 4 together, it was exactly what the Shadow needed to tip the balance.

Zombie Sammael
05-09-2013, 12:02 AM
I think it was very effective exactly as it was used. To use it earlier, in a less fraught time would have opened her up to detection and then allow others to defend themselves against it. By saving it to such a pivotal moment and doing all 4 together, it was exactly what the Shadow needed to tip the balance.

Well, it wasn't, because in the end it failed to tip the balance. But it would have been a good plan if someone (other than that one Myrddraal) had thought to take out Mat or Perrin rather than focus all efforts on Rand.

*

As far as the main topic is concerned, I guess my only response is to say that the one character I hadn't realised deserved to go out in a blaze of glory did, and she did deserve it: Egwene. Her pivotal sacrifice not only turned the tide, it also ensured her legacy as greatest Amyrlin of all time and put her on a par with Rand, as she was always meant to be, by giving her the powerful moment of sacrifice. She may have been more than a little insane by the time she went, but to me that doesn't diminish the power of that moment.

GonzoTheGreat
05-09-2013, 02:30 AM
I think it was very effective exactly as it was used. To use it earlier, in a less fraught time would have opened her up to detection and then allow others to defend themselves against it. By saving it to such a pivotal moment and doing all 4 together, it was exactly what the Shadow needed to tip the balance.
It might have been quite useful if it had been used on a bunch of Aiel clan chiefs in TFoH, right before the battle of Cairhien. Having all Rand's underlings be ineffective and having all the neutral clans attack him at the same time would have seriously altered the situation there.

Ishara
05-09-2013, 09:57 AM
I know you're mostly being facaetious, but I still think that waiting to use till the very end was the right move for them. To use the coordinated attack that we saw in aMoL any earlier would have tipped their hand. By waiting until the last possible moment, they maintained the element of surprise.

GonzoTheGreat
05-09-2013, 10:17 AM
If they had broken Rand's Aiel and then send the rest of the clans rampaging around as the Shaido did, then they wouldn't have had to wait for any "last possible moment".

Tollingtoy
05-11-2013, 09:26 AM
If they had broken Rand's Aiel and then send the rest of the clans rampaging around as the Shaido did, then they wouldn't have had to wait for any "last possible moment".


This is my point exactly. There are so many instances where it could have been used to tip the scales long before the Last Battle

GonzoTheGreat
05-11-2013, 11:39 AM
This is my point exactly. There are so many instances where it could have been used to tip the scales long before the Last Battle
If it can only be used once (because after that it would be recognised for what it is), then waiting might make sense.

On the other hand, that wouldn't seem to be a serious issue, as it would also be possible to use it for bluffing. First in a real strike, such as the one I suggested against the clan chiefs. Then, after that, all leaders will be periodically checked for signs of tampering. So now you tamper with a leader you want to get rid of, giving him a "do as you think best" Compulsion. That'd be very much according to his own inclinations, so fighting it would be almost impossible. But it would show up as "being tampered with", and consequently that leader would be sidelined. Repeat until the Light is left with officers that make Weiramon look effective.

The main reason why this wasn't done was probably the disunity amongst the forces of the Shadow.