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padfoot89
05-15-2013, 10:33 AM
So, finally, do we know what the issue was with entering the Dream World in the flesh ?

The Aiel dreamwalkers made a lot of noise about it being evil. Rand with his LTT background echoed some of those sentiments. I believe the claim of dying forever when in the flesh was untrue.

Perrin's thoughts lead us to believe that there wasn't anything wrong with entering in the flesh.

Any ideas on why entering in the flesh got this bad reputation ?

GonzoTheGreat
05-15-2013, 12:04 PM
Any ideas on why entering in the flesh got this bad reputation ?
No sleep.

Perrin didn't get the right kind of sleep while in TAR in the flesh. As a result, he started to suffer from sleep deprivation. That, of course, has a tendency to unsettle the mind, which can easily lead to paranoia, and hence to doing evil.
Then all that is needed for the common view on entering TAR in the flesh to take hold is that people overlook the difference between going there for a short while and going there for months on end.

Terez
05-15-2013, 02:08 PM
The thing about dying forever was invented by Brandon and then debunked by Brandon. Seemed like a pointless distraction to me. There's something about that in the report from JordanCon which I will post when I stop remembering stuff I didn't note down. (Just remembered something else yesterday.)

Tollingtoy
05-15-2013, 05:18 PM
No sleep.

Perrin didn't get the right kind of sleep while in TAR in the flesh. As a result, he started to suffer from sleep deprivation. That, of course, has a tendency to unsettle the mind, which can easily lead to paranoia, and hence to doing evil.
Then all that is needed for the common view on entering TAR in the flesh to take hold is that people overlook the difference between going there for a short while and going there for months on end.

I don't think sleep deprivation is enough to justify the response that the Aiel Wise Ones had to this. I would imagine it makes it very easy to "do evil" because you have so many opportunities to influence people's minds without their knowledge. When Moridin is pulling people into his Dreamshards, I would imagine he is there in the flesh and I would think that Graendal's attack on the Great Captains also took place in the flesh. I don't think there is anything inherently evil about it, but the temptation for unethical behavior might be too much for some people to handle.

GonzoTheGreat
05-16-2013, 03:53 AM
The thing about dying forever was invented by Brandon and then debunked by Brandon.
Counterpoint:
Perrin paused. There was a sense of finality to the emotions his mind attached the word "kill" to. "Hopper, what happens to a wolf who dies in the dream?"
The wolf was silent for a time. If we die here, we die forever, Young Bull. I do not know if the same is true for you, but I believe it is.
Of course, it is possible that Hopper is just simply wrong here, but it does not seem sensible to assume this was a Brandon addition.

I don't think sleep deprivation is enough to justify the response that the Aiel Wise Ones had to this.
Of course not. But it may very well explain how the idea got started.

A similarly distorted idea in the WOT is that of the Dragon having been on the side of the DO:
The balls now danced between Thom's hands in two intertwining circles. His voice was almost a chant, and he turned slowly as he spoke, as if surveying the onlookers to gauge his effect. "I will tell you of the end of the Age of Legends, of the Dragon, and his attempt to free the Dark One into the world of men. I will tell of the Time of Madness, when Aes Sedai shattered the world; of the Trolloc Wars, when men battled Trollocs for rule of the earth; of the War of the Hundred Years, when men battled men and the nations of our day were wrought. I will tell the adventures of men and women, rich and poor, great and small, proud and humble. The Siege of the Pillars of the Sky. 'How Goodwife Karil Cured Her Husband of Snoring.' King Darith and the Fall of the House of "(Bolding mine.)

Cortar
05-20-2013, 11:22 PM
Wasnt this addressed in the book?

Going in the flesh is evil becuase you have some much power and control while there. You start doing things "just because you can." Not because its right or needed. Yoh can do some truly evil things to people with that much control.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Terez
05-21-2013, 03:09 AM
Of course, it is possible that Hopper is just simply wrong here, but it does not seem sensible to assume this was a Brandon addition.
Birgitte explained to the girls in the next book that it didn't work that way; only those who are already dead (in Tel'aran'rhiod for the afterlife) are in danger of permanent death. The Wise Ones never mentioned it, and none of the Forsaken appeared to fear it. That's why it's Brandon's invention; the way he framed it was inconsistent with what came before. Hopper is a different story because he is so often ignorant of things outside of wolfworld.

GonzoTheGreat
05-21-2013, 03:46 AM
Wasnt this addressed in the book?

Going in the flesh is evil becuase you have some much power and control while there. You start doing things "just because you can." Not because its right or needed. Yoh can do some truly evil things to people with that much control.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Isn't that the Seanchan reasoning for leashing all channelers?
Channeling gives you so much power and control over others that it automatically corrupts all channelers, unless they are kept totally powerless.

It seems just a bunch of superstition to me.
... and none of the Forsaken appeared to fear it.
That is a fairly good argument. Especially considering the fact that at least once (in the TDR) Ishamael died in TAR yet wasn't permanently gone.

Terez
05-22-2013, 12:24 AM
Technically you could argue he died in the real world. Or at least, that he died as Rand brought them back to the real world. Either way, the Forsaken didn't seem to believe it was a risk for permanent death.

GonzoTheGreat
05-22-2013, 04:14 AM
Technically you could argue he died in the real world. Or at least, that he died as Rand brought them back to the real world. Either way, the Forsaken didn't seem to believe it was a risk for permanent death.
I think that they returned after Ishamael was dead and thus no longer capable of holding them in TAR. The scene does support that interpretation better, but it is not really solid, I admit.

yks 6nnetu hing
05-22-2013, 04:43 AM
I seem to remember something about... Each time one enters T'A'R in the flesh, they become less human somehow. As if the process of entering or exiting T'A'R is to the soul as Balefire is to the Pattern - the more of it there is, the more destructive it is for the whole.


TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 23 - Beyond the Stone

"Almost anyone can touch Tel'aran'rhiod, but few can truly enter it. Of all the Wise Ones, we four alone can dreamwalk, and your Tower has not produced a dreamwalker in nearly five hundred years. It is not a thing of the One Power, though Aes Sedai believe it is. I cannot channel, nor can Seana, yet we dreamwalk as well as Amys or Melaine. Many people brush the World of Dreams in their sleep. Because they only brush against it, they wake with aches or pains where they should have broken bones or mortal hurts. A dreamwalker enters the dream fully, therefore her injuries are real on waking. For one who is fully in the dream, dreamwalker or not, death there is death here. To enter the dream too completely, though, is to lose touch with the flesh; there is no way back, and the flesh dies. It is said that once there were those who could enter the dream in the flesh, and no longer be in this world at all. This was an evil thing, for they did evil; it must never be attempted, even if you believe it possible for you, for each time you will lose some part of what makes you human. You must learn to enter Tel'aran'rhiod when you wish, to the degree you wish.


These seem to be two separate reasons why entering T'A'R in the flesh would be evil, firstly because those who did in the past did evil and therefore the method is evil; and secondly because it erodes the person's humanity somehow.

GonzoTheGreat
05-22-2013, 05:49 AM
These seem to be two separate reasons why entering T'A'R in the flesh would be evil, firstly because those who did in the past did evil and therefore the method is evil; and secondly because it erodes the person's humanity somehow.
It is that second type which could be linked to a form of sleep deprivation.

yks 6nnetu hing
05-22-2013, 06:10 AM
It is that second type which could be linked to a form of sleep deprivation.

I don't think so. The "each time" part implies that repetition of the entry/departure of T'A'R int he flesh is the dangerous part. Hence my parallel to Balefire: burning one thread from the Pattern is something that it can heal itself from but continuous or massive use of Balefire causes irrepairable damage, making the Pattern unstable and... warped.

incidentally, I now think it's interesting that Egwene, who has been in T'A'R in the flesh and knew the weaves for Balefire, Traveling and entering T'A'R in the flesh was the one to come up with the anti-Balefire weave. interesting to note that she developed Traveling as a modification of the T'A'R entry weave that she thougth of; so the two are definitely linked. However, nobody considers Traveling in and of itself evil... except, remember her horror when she discussed the way men Travel with Rand?

GonzoTheGreat
05-22-2013, 07:11 AM
I don't think so. The "each time" part implies that repetition of the entry/departure of T'A'R int he flesh is the dangerous part.
Could be, but it isn't really needed. Compare with channeling tainted saidin: there too each time you did it was a risk. On the one hand, there was a cumulative effect, but on the other hand, there are also believable accounts of men going totally bonkers right after having done it just once.
Entering TAR in the flesh could be the same: risky every time you do it, with no telling in advance when it a specific person would tip over the edge and lose too much to be considered sane and dependable any more.

Terez
05-22-2013, 04:49 PM
I think that they returned after Ishamael was dead and thus no longer capable of holding them in TAR.
Rand entered on his own; he didn't use Ishamael's gateway, but he copied his weave. We discuss this a lot in terms of what Power Ishamael was channeling there, but you could argue that touching the taint gives male channelers some kind of access to the True Power. An unfortunate side effect that renders the Dark One's counterstroke a desperate move, and gives us another reason why He would give male channelers protection from it.

Ieyasu
05-22-2013, 05:32 PM
Rand entered on his own; he didn't use Ishamael's gateway, but he copied his weave. We discuss this a lot in terms of what Power Ishamael was channeling there, but you could argue that touching the taint gives male channelers some kind of access to the True Power. An unfortunate side effect that renders the Dark One's counterstroke a desperate move, and gives us another reason why He would give male channelers protection from it.

I kind of like this reasoning at first glance, however, why has no other male channeler spontaneously channeled the True Power in the last 3000 years?


At that moment he grew aware of a strange force. It was like a reservoir of water, boiling and churning just beyond his view. He reached toward it with his mind.
A clouded face flashed before Rand's own, one whose features he couldn't quite make out. It was gone in a moment.
And Rand found himself filled with an alien power. Not saidin, not saidar, but something else. Something he'd never felt before.

If it was the taint allowing Rand access to the True Power here, why did he see a face immediately before being filled with the True Power? What of his link to Elan?

Terez
05-23-2013, 02:45 AM
I kind of like this reasoning at first glance, however, why has no other male channeler spontaneously channeled the True Power in the last 3000 years?
They're all gentled or dead before they have a chance. As for the new ones, they either gained protection or went insane. And while Rand might have done it to an extent in Tear, he was using Callandor and taking in a lot more of the taint than usual. He had advantages (or disadvantages) that might have pushed him along that path much more quickly than was normal. (After that he felt uncomfortable using it, especially after he tried to Heal the dead girl.) The taint and the True Power are essentially the same substance, despite certain differences, so all the explanations for why Callandor magnifies the taint tend to buttress the hypothetical. And though Rand might have done it early on, he didn't actually sense the True Power as such until TGS.

If it was the taint allowing Rand access to the True Power here, why did he see a face immediately before being filled with the True Power? What of his link to Elan?I highly doubt the link is irrelevant, but it might not necessarily explain everything. Perhaps his unconscious struggle has something to do with why he can see Moridin's face. There is very little evidence to work with, so it's kind of a theorist's free-for-all (with certain restrictions).

Ieyasu
05-24-2013, 10:02 PM
They're all gentled or dead before they have a chance. As for the new ones, they either gained protection or went insane.

Rand is a pretty novice channeler, time-wise... even at the end of the series, he still hasnt been channeling as long as some of the men in the series who survived the Last Battle...

Men have survived longer being channelers than Rand did... not every single male channeler in the past 3000 years was gentled or killed... some died of natural causes (taint sickness, skin rotting etc), and some where shielded and dragged across several nations with rocks being thrown at them and facing certain death as well as gentling... and yet they still didnt magically get the ability to channel the True Source. Maybe being faced with gentling or death isnt enough to motivate 3000 years worth of men like choking Min motivated Rand, neh? Hell, the Sea Folk dont even necessarily kill all the male channelers, some choose to live out the rest of their natural lives on whatever deserted island they are dropped off on... there is an entire continent of people who dont kill their male channelers...two if you count the sharan breeding program. The Aiel never killed their male channelers either...as for granting of protection? Who was protected aside from the Chosen? Taim's cronies werent, the turned Ashaman werent... did Taim himself have any protection prior to being raised as a Chosen? Did any other male channeler? Can you back it up with anything from the books? I personally do not believe anyone other than the Chosen were ever granted protection... I think there is enough in Isam's pov to argue that the sightblinders themselves werent protected either... so who exactly are you claiming was granted protection from the taint? Can you back it up with anything more than your opinion?

tl;dr - this statement you made? is a gross over exaggeration.

The taint and the True Power are essentially the same substance, despite certain differences

What are you basing your opinion on here? They both originated with the shadow but that is where the similarities end. Every person who has described the taint has described it as a oily sickening substance, meanwhile every person we have seen channel the True Power, including Rand, does not describe it in any way similar at all to the taint... taint sickness ends up rotting a man alive if he doesnt kill himself with some insanity or another, True Power makes you have Saa and fire eyes and mouth... nothing rotting... so why would you try to say these things are even essentially similar let alone try to say they are the same?


There is very little evidence to work with, so it's kind of a theorist's free-for-all (with certain restrictions).

There is quite a bit of evidence...3000 years of no one else spontaneously channeling the True Power worth of evidence. The simple fact that they know the progression of taint sickness shows not 100% of men in the past 3k years died of gentling or just plain being killed... some didnt die due to channeling related issues what so ever. Hell Owyn Merrilin channeled himself nearly as long as Rand did the entire series...Logain channeled longer, Taim even longer than that. The fact Rand saw the face as he siezed the True Power is evidence... there is only a lack of evidence if you decide to ignore it intentionally.

Terez
05-25-2013, 02:39 AM
Rand is a pretty novice channeler, time-wise...
It's like you ignored everything else I said. :D

tl;dr - this statement you made? is a gross over exaggeration...
The taint and the True Power are essentially the same substance, despite certain differences
What are you basing your opinion on here?
A simple search would have shown you that it is neither exaggeration nor opinion, but fact (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=116#10).

Ieyasu
05-25-2013, 11:35 AM
It's like you ignored everything else I said. :D

Ditto :rolleyes: I didnt ignore anything at all, I just have nothing to say about Callandor on this subject right now.


A simple search would have shown you that it is neither exaggeration nor opinion, but fact (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=116#10).

There is a reason I quoted this part separately from your gross over exaggeration that every single male channeler has been killed or gentled in the past 3000 years. It is a fact that no, they have not, many have survived to die of the taint sickness... hence how they even know about the progression of it. I clearly pointed out several societies spanning several continents who neither kill nor gentle their male channelers. Yes, the vast majority may have been killed or gentled, but not an emphatic "all of them" as your opinion was in the first quote I posted. Maybe being faced with gentling or death isnt enough to motivate the majority 3000 years worth of men like choking Min motivated Rand, neh? And I am still looking for some sort of backup for your opinion that anyone outside of the Chosen was ever at any time protected from the taint...

However, you are right, I guess I never saw that particular quote before, it's a pretty good thing to base that 2nd opinion I asked about on, and you are indeed right in that that bit in your post was not opinion but indeed fact...however that doesnt explain the rest of your opinions as they are not tied into that small fact...nor the points about being killed or gentled, or protected from the taint that I raised.

Terez
05-25-2013, 12:14 PM
Ditto
If you're going ignore most of what I say, why should I care about your post at all? If you're going to be aggressively ignorant, why should I bother addressing your arguments? There are logical responses to every little whine in your post; if you spent a (sober?) moment thinking about them, you might come up with them on your own. But you won't.

Ieyasu
05-25-2013, 01:47 PM
If you're going ignore most of what I say, why should I care about your post at all? If you're going to be aggressively ignorant, why should I bother addressing your arguments? There are logical responses to every little whine in your post; if you spent a (sober?) moment thinking about them, you might come up with them on your own. But you won't.

It is not my opinion to defend, it is yours. You want me to chew your food for you too? Maybe clean up your room? Dust your piano for you as well? I am sorry you feel calling your opinion that "all" men have been gentled or killed in the past 3000 years is aggressive, however, I am not attempting to make personalize attacks as you are now. The fact that you are trying to go personal says volumes as to why you are intentionally ignoring every point that does not agree with your opinion... nothing new here, just typical terez behavior... I am sorry I will not come up with defense for your opinions I do not agree with. If there are logical responses to my arguments then why are you not making them? You are right, I will not defend your opinion for you...

Terez
05-25-2013, 07:27 PM
It is not my opinion to defend, it is yours.
It was a 'might be argued' scenario in the first place. But regardless, certain conversations just aren't worth the effort.

GonzoTheGreat
05-26-2013, 05:16 AM
Maybe clean up your room? Dust your piano for you as well?
I would advise caution when making such offers. She might make you wear a French Maid uniform while you're carrying out those chores. Of course, if that's what you turns you on ...