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SauceyBlueConfetti
06-23-2013, 06:43 PM
Seriously. No one else read it yet? Nothing to say?

Terez
06-23-2013, 08:40 PM
It's out?

Ishara
06-23-2013, 08:51 PM
Yup! Available online!

Terez
06-23-2013, 11:33 PM
Is it any good? Trying to decide whether to buy it. Are hard copies sold out or something? I thought there was only the one limited edition.

fionwe1987
06-24-2013, 01:57 AM
Where online? I thought the book was only out tomorrow? I didn't pre-order. Just considered buying it from Tor's store if people said it was good. Was it?

halo6819
06-24-2013, 03:22 AM
I think its only hardcopy or on kindle.

If you are not interested in any of the other stories, this may not be worth $10 for a 15-20 min read.

If someone could tell me how to format spoilers on here, i would give a quick overview of the story

GonzoTheGreat
06-24-2013, 03:44 AM
From what I remember of it, the following should work:
(spoiler) Spoilers here, just replace round brackets by square ones. (/spoiler)

sleepinghour
06-24-2013, 04:36 AM
You can buy the Kindle edition (http://www.amazon.com/Unfettered-ebook/dp/B00DJJIR6S/) ($14.99) and read it on your PC with the Kindle for PC (http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html?ie=UTF8&docId=1000426311) program. There's also a Nook version (http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/unfettered-shawn-speakman/1115779260?ean=2940016508696&isbn=2940016508696) ($9.99) and one from Kobo Books (http://www.kobobooks.com/ebook/Unfettered/book-m9s_iqO_fESy8MTLMSvbAw/page1.html) ($12.49).

halo6819
06-24-2013, 06:14 AM
overview:

The story follows Bao, and initially the reader doesn't know who he is. He meets with an old man that he refers to as his father and is happy to see him. Surprised that he is happy. His father had returned to see him off on his journey to become Wyld.

He arrives at the "testing grounds" to become Wyld he must enter a cave alone, die and come back to life. He thinks about how he freed the male channelers and how he tried to make them human again, but they rejected him. He also worries that his father and lover may see him as evil for the acts that he will commit after he becomes Wyld.

He then travels down the river of souls and enters the cave where he thinks that maybe a Nym lives due to the fact that there is a lush garden growing inside of the cave. After stepping on a vine he discovers, DOUBLE SPOILER! That it is actually a fully matured Jumara that wandered into the cave and pupated. Some cool features of Jumara is that they absorb the OP and it makes them stronger. Bao thinks Aginor made it because fuck it and not because they were actually useful

back to regular spoilers

Bao successfully kills the Jumara and goes on to collect the holy cup that will declare him Wyld, revealing that he came looking for this cup knowing that it was the most powerful sa'angreal ever made. He discovers that the cup is only half of the item, and goes to get the other half.

The story ends with Bao returning and accepting his leadership role amongst the Sharans. He actually laughs for the first time in centuries. According to the Sharan prophecies the Wyld is the one prophecised to save the world by slaying the Dragon. At the end Bao reflects on his new name and position, thinking he has held many names over the years, including Demandered.

Luckers
06-24-2013, 06:56 AM
I got what Brandon was going for but as with so many things it was a 14 year olds vision of how such things would play out. From the reminescence about the Oneness to the cup itself.

Wasn't terrible. Was mostly meh.

Davian93
06-24-2013, 07:40 AM
I got what Brandon was going for but as with so many things it was a 14 year olds vision of how such things would play out. From the reminescence about the Oneness to the cup itself.

Wasn't terrible. Was mostly meh.

So its like everything else that he's written when it comes to WoT...

~shrugs~

Probably not gonna buy it for a while then...

Terez
06-24-2013, 01:52 PM
Wasn't terrible.
Now there's a ringing endorsement!

SauceyBlueConfetti
06-24-2013, 02:22 PM
It was interesting. I could see an Entire story behind it

Spoiler tags are annoying on iProducts so I have no idea what Halo wrote

There is an interesting parallel to reaching/entering Shayol Ghul which I liked. As it was pretty much "all Brandon" I thought it was pretty well written as there were not constraints on him to this character (as he found with so many others). Demand red seems a more "full" character now in comparison to all the other Chosen.

I didn't like the Nym reference.

I enjoyed it. Haven't dug in on the other shorts yet but for $10 I think it is worthwhile as a whole.

suttree
06-24-2013, 03:29 PM
Wasn't terrible. Was mostly meh.

Pass, got quite enough of that already in these last two books. :D

Luckers
06-25-2013, 06:19 AM
Now there's a ringing endorsement!

Haha. Probs is, from me. Read it a few weeks back though, so that may account for my mildness.

SauceyBlueConfetti
06-25-2013, 01:41 PM
Well, now that I am logged in to an actual computer and read Halo's comments...that is a vague summary. Not really a discussion.

Toss Dav's comments as we know he hates Brandon.
Toss Suttree's comments as we know he doesn't like Brandon's writing much.
Toss Lucker's comments, because, well 'nuff said.


Anyone else read it?

Isabel
06-25-2013, 02:56 PM
Nope,and dont plan to read it.
For me it doesn't feel 'canon', so thats the reason i am not buying it.

suttree
06-25-2013, 04:00 PM
Toss Suttree's comments as we know he doesn't like Brandon's writing much.


Wouldn't it be better to toss mine since I admitted not reading it yet? ;)

Think it is rather telling how ambivalent most people seem to be for this latest release.

Nei
06-26-2013, 11:45 AM
I haven't read it, but I'm honestly not sure how much I actually want to buy it since I'm not really a fan of the other writers.

Reading Halo's summary, I get the feeling that a short sequence of segments wouldn't do the story any justice.

Davian93
06-26-2013, 01:08 PM
Well, now that I am logged in to an actual computer and read Halo's comments...that is a vague summary. Not really a discussion.

Toss Dav's comments as we know he hates Brandon.
Toss Suttree's comments as we know he doesn't like Brandon's writing much.
Toss Lucker's comments, because, well 'nuff said.


Anyone else read it?

I dont hate Brandon at all...I just dont care for his take on WoT for the most part. I like his other books just fine.

suttree
06-26-2013, 03:34 PM
Tidbit Peter posted over at DM:

The name Sakarnen comes from Alan and it means "causer or instrument of greatest punishment" in the OT.

Dom
06-27-2013, 09:56 AM
Hmmm... sounds awesome!

I vaguely hoped Brandon would have included via reminiscences a few tidbits on Demandred's activities through the series, which doesn't appear to be the case as this sounds rather like a prologue style teaser to a reveal (which wasn't a bad idea in itself.. it would have spoiled the "surprise" but would have increased suspense/tension about how it would play out. Handled well, Jordan-style, with mysterious allusions and teasers that Demandred has many irons in the fire (eg: Taim) it could even have been in the (TGS) prologue to play with our nerves).

Too bad. I'll pass on this one, I don't really care for the other stories and for River of Souls the summary was enough for me.

I'm still unsure how the Sharan prophecies could be valid and really be about Demandred yet in the end the Wyld slayed no Dragon. Without the actual devious wording of those prophecies to work out how this fooled the very intelligent Demandred into embracing a virtually religious quest(which is pretty important since it's like the foundation of his whole arc and the key to motives of his actions/decisions in the series), it seems like weak storytelling to me.

Pity we didn't get Jordan's version of this, as the idea of Demandred becoming a believer in prophecies that gave him the heroic and central role at last was an interesting concept that wasn't realized so well in AMOL (largely for the sake of a "surprise" arrival that was cool for a few paragraphs, afterward it's the complete absence of build up that dominated).

Southpaw2012
06-27-2013, 11:02 AM
It wasn't bad. I enjoyed the story overall as I found it intriguing. However, like others have said, it isn't canon so... I don't know. I kept wondering as I read it if any of the info came from RJ's notes or if it was 100% made up by Brandon other than the fact that Demandred was in Shara. Brandon has made it clear many times that the story is all his but I find it hard to believe that all RJ had about Demandred was that he was hiding somewhere in Shara.

The Unreasoner
06-27-2013, 12:44 PM
Brandon has made it clear many times that the story is all his
Oh thank God.


Maybe it's just me, but none of it had the 'feel' of RJ (the Bao stuff here or in AMoL). I know it didn't 'sound' like him. But there are several scenes in the last three books that had the feel of RJ even though you can bet your tempestuous ass they were written by Brandon.

Tollingtoy
06-27-2013, 01:35 PM
I would say it was worth the money, simply to explain what I thought was the biggest mistake in AMOL--dropping Demandred out of nowhere with the Sharans without any explanation.

I found this it very frustrating to have been wondering what Demandred was doing for so many books and seeing an insane, raving lunatic with thousands of Sharans and not understanding why. This helps to fill in the gaps and actually makes me think that Brandon wasn't responsible for ALL of the problems we have with the later books, since it would have made much more sense to include this.

Actually, I think it would have fit in very well in the epilogue of TOM, knowing where Demandred was and what he was doing would have built a great deal of anticipation for his eventual arrival.

Tollingtoy
06-27-2013, 01:37 PM
There is also an interesting exchange between Demandred and Mintel early on:


"A thought did hover on the edges of his consciousness. The thought that this man should have been miles and miles away.

“How?” Bao asked, releasing the Oneness.

“I rode the caprisha through the City of Dreams, my son,” Mintel said, taking Bao by the arm.

“Dangerous.”

“I could not miss this day.”

“I would not have you lose your soul to come see me.”



This seems to speak a bit more about T'AR and the dangers of entering in the flesh. Could Isam have lost his soul to the DO by doing this repeatedly? It seems to be something that both the Sharans and Demandred are aware of.

fdsaf3
06-27-2013, 01:57 PM
I'll preface this by saying I have not read the story in full, only the spoiler-ified summary posted previously in this thread. Thus, if I am way off base, just let me know.

What struck me more than anything reading the summary is that Demandred seemed to have abandoned his Forsaken persona in lieu of the Bao persona. Again, this is just my interpretation based on the last spoiler quote.

So...think about that for a second. The Forsaken all had names and personalities which they eschewed when they took on the mantle of being Forsaken during the Age of Legends. Each one had their own reason for going over to the Dark Side. Ishamael and his logic, Demandred and his hatred of the Dragon, etc. Is it interesting to anyone else that Demandred is the Forsaken who seems to have most thrown away his Forsaken personality? Obviously, all of them needed to take on new personas; they couldn't very well run around saying "I'm Ravhin LOL" - they would either considered insane or dangerous (or both).

It just strikes me that Demandred fought for the Shadow out of obligation or previous association more than affiliation. All he really cared about was defeating Lews Therin.

(edit):

But of course, fdsaf! (you might be saying to yourself). That's obvious!

What I mean is that the other Forsaken seemed to always still be their Forsaken selves. They adopted other personalities and whatever to go undercover, but they were still themselves. Demandred...maybe not so much. That's the point I'm trying to make.

Anyway, I'm rambling at this point. The summary was good enough for me. Interesting to finally see a fully grown Jumara!

Terez
06-27-2013, 01:58 PM
Tollingtoy—It seems to me to be Brandon trying to explain what's wrong with going to Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh, rather than something he took directly from RJ. It doesn't fit very well with the rest of the books, as we've discussed elsewhere. Obviously he took it from what the Wise Ones said about it, but I don't think it works as a canon explanation.

Tollingtoy
06-27-2013, 02:55 PM
I'll preface this by saying I have not read the story in full, only the spoiler-ified summary posted previously in this thread. Thus, if I am way off base, just let me know.

What struck me more than anything reading the summary is that Demandred seemed to have abandoned his Forsaken persona in lieu of the Bao persona. Again, this is just my interpretation based on the last spoiler quote.

So...think about that for a second. The Forsaken all had names and personalities which they eschewed when they took on the mantle of being Forsaken during the Age of Legends. Each one had their own reason for going over to the Dark Side. Ishamael and his logic, Demandred and his hatred of the Dragon, etc. Is it interesting to anyone else that Demandred is the Forsaken who seems to have most thrown away his Forsaken personality? Obviously, all of them needed to take on new personas; they couldn't very well run around saying "I'm Ravhin LOL" - they would either considered insane or dangerous (or both).

It just strikes me that Demandred fought for the Shadow out of obligation or previous association more than affiliation. All he really cared about was defeating Lews Therin.

(edit):

But of course, fdsaf! (you might be saying to yourself). That's obvious!

What I mean is that the other Forsaken seemed to always still be their Forsaken selves. They adopted other personalities and whatever to go undercover, but they were still themselves. Demandred...maybe not so much. That's the point I'm trying to make.

Anyway, I'm rambling at this point. The summary was good enough for me. Interesting to finally see a fully grown Jumara!



When you read the story, it makes it sound as though Dem originally traveled there and adopted the persona of Bao as means to obtain the sa'angreal, but throughout his time there he becomes more and more involved with the people of Shara, a la Kurtz in Apocalypse Now, until he actually begins to believe in what they are doing.

I don't think he abandoned his Forsaken persona as much as it evolved into Bao--as a means to destroy LTT, which is essentially why he became Dem to begin with

Tollingtoy
06-27-2013, 02:56 PM
Tollingtoy—It seems to me to be Brandon trying to explain what's wrong with going to Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh, rather than something he took directly from RJ. It doesn't fit very well with the rest of the books, as we've discussed elsewhere. Obviously he took it from what the Wise Ones said about it, but I don't think it works as a canon explanation.



Good point, thanks!

Interestingly, Brandon actually says this in the Introduction:

"So, in the end, we left these scenes on the cutting room floor. I’m quite fond of them, and do consider the general outline of events within to be cannon. However, the specifics of the worldbuilding are not cannon. We cut these scenes before Team Jordan’s Maria Simons, queen of continuity, had a chance to go over them with her fine-tooth comb."


So, he's not very secretive about that fact

SauceyBlueConfetti
06-27-2013, 03:07 PM
What I mean is that the other Forsaken seemed to always still be their Forsaken selves. They adopted other personalities and whatever to go undercover, but they were still themselves. Demandred...maybe not so much. That's the point I'm trying to make.

Agree with tollingtoy. The story shows him fighting an acceptance of a transformation. He initially references his only original purpose was to sow chaos. Eventually through incidental and accidental (and unexplained) circumstances he slowly becomes the leader and is allowed to prove he is the true Wyld.

The last few paragraphs show his mental transformation. I lined the echos to Rands struggles. I found it interesting and felt it had additional layers we needed to see

Terez
06-27-2013, 03:56 PM
Good point, thanks!

Interestingly, Brandon actually says this in the Introduction:

"So, in the end, we left these scenes on the cutting room floor. I’m quite fond of them, and do consider the general outline of events within to be cannon. However, the specifics of the worldbuilding are not cannon. We cut these scenes before Team Jordan’s Maria Simons, queen of continuity, had a chance to go over them with her fine-tooth comb."


So, he's not very secretive about that fact
I know Brandon can't spell 'canon', but please tell me the editors caught that? (Peter, where were you? :) )

SauceyBlueConfetti
06-27-2013, 04:06 PM
I know Brandon can't spell 'canon', but please tell me the editors caught that? (Peter, where were you? :) )

It is correct in the book. Typo is Tollingtoys

Enigma
06-27-2013, 04:39 PM
Perhaps the most interesting part for me was:


SPOILER SPACE




Where he said he would protect the people (the Sharans) if he could and he surprised himself by meaning it. Brandon did say in the foreword that he thought Demandred's fall was tragic. None of the other forsaken seemed to care about their followers beyond as a means to an end. I think deep down Demandred wanted to be the hero only his insane hatred of LTT drove everything else out of his mind.

I wonder how much of his atrocities were due to him enjoying power like the other chosen and how much was about hurting LTT emotionally? If LTT was anything like Rand he would have agonised over every city he could not save, every soldier captured and tortured etc.

Davian93
06-27-2013, 05:38 PM
I would say it was worth the money, simply to explain what I thought was the biggest mistake in AMOL--dropping Demandred out of nowhere with the Sharans without any explanation.

I found this it very frustrating to have been wondering what Demandred was doing for so many books and seeing an insane, raving lunatic with thousands of Sharans and not understanding why. This helps to fill in the gaps and actually makes me think that Brandon wasn't responsible for ALL of the problems we have with the later books, since it would have made much more sense to include this.

Actually, I think it would have fit in very well in the epilogue of TOM, knowing where Demandred was and what he was doing would have built a great deal of anticipation for his eventual arrival.

Between that decision and the brilliant, just brilliant Androl/Pevara subplot that could easily have been cut, I simply cannot forgive Brandon.

Terez
06-27-2013, 05:43 PM
It is correct in the book. Typo is Tollingtoys
I Am Relieved.

(Brandon really can't spell it; I have had to fix it many times for the database. But that's what editors are for.)

Isabel
06-27-2013, 09:50 PM
Between that decision and the brilliant, just brilliant Androl/Pevara subplot that could easily have been cut, I simply cannot forgive Brandon.

I think that cutting demandred out was really smart, because it seems to me what RJ wanted. If RJ wanted the surprise spoiled he could have put shara in earlier or told us. But he didnt. He tried to keep it secret.

I still pretend Androl didnt happen :)

Davian93
06-27-2013, 10:16 PM
I think that cutting demandred out was really smart, because it seems to me what RJ wanted. If RJ wanted the surprise spoiled he could have put shara in earlier or told us. But he didnt. He tried to keep it secret.

I still pretend Androl didnt happen :)

I think RJ would have handled the entire Demandred arc far, far better in the last few books...

And Androl.


~shudder~

I still have reread those parts of the book because they're that bad...just so brutally bad.

Tollingtoy
06-28-2013, 12:14 AM
I Am Relieved.

(Brandon really can't spell it; I have had to fix it many times for the database. But that's what editors are for.)

Yeah, my bad guys :/

Tollingtoy
06-28-2013, 12:16 AM
And I don't want to turn this into one of "those" threads, but I felt almost a little offended hearing Brandon talk about Androl and how he wanted "his" character in the books. It's not his book.

I agree, cut out all the Androl parts and make Logain have them the way it was supposed to be and maybe there is room to actually explain what the hell Demandred is doing

fionwe1987
06-28-2013, 12:44 AM
And I don't want to turn this into one of "those" threads, but I felt almost a little offended hearing Brandon talk about Androl and how he wanted "his" character in the books. It's not his book.

I agree, cut out all the Androl parts and make Logain have them the way it was supposed to be and maybe there is room to actually explain what the hell Demandred is doing
It seems to me that by skipping on all background for Demandred, and transferring Logain's acts to Androl totally spoiled what would have been a cool parallel. Logain also hates playing second fiddle, and in aMoL gets uncaring and cold because of his hatred for Taim (which, while much more justified, is a definite parallel to Demandred-Rand). It would have been very cool to see a situation where Demandred actual felt for his people, and Logain slowly got to that point too.

Terez
06-28-2013, 02:09 AM
And I don't want to turn this into one of "those" threads, but I felt almost a little offended hearing Brandon talk about Androl and how he wanted "his" character in the books. It's not his book.
In a sense, it is. But yes, Brandon has given conflicting answers on this, which I imagine he feels aren't mutually exclusive.

Ieyasu
06-28-2013, 04:02 PM
Read it. Cant say I like or dislike it as a wot book. It just doesnt feel much like Wheel of Time to me. It bothered me that the Sharans werent described with their normal musical tonal accent to their voices.

I always had completely different idea's about what a Jumara would pupate into. It was much more dragon-like in my mind rather than the big ass tentacle bug it turned out to be. I also liked the anime jump/flight thing Demandred does with the power!

The fact that there was an evolved Nym for no real reason was confusing and strange. I did enjoy seeing into Demandred's thoughts, however. And I enjoyed how he smashes all emotion into a point of darkness, a black-hole, rather than the typical flame that Rand uses. I can see his quest and work he did, and actually would like a book, or possibly a trilogy to tell the whole story. I like that he definitely feels more fleshed out finally, and that fleshing out wasnt along the stereo typical lines of his history. He had actual growth and depth. It is hard to argue that many of the evil characters ever truly grew or changed, I liked seeing Demandred's changes.

I am very curious about this 'city of dreams' and what exactly riding a "caprisha" is or means. Did someone make a TAR gate for him? Is it some kind of item? Did they possess this ability before Demandred freed the male channelers? Was this something Sharan's could always do?

I have recently been rereading a scene where Rand is traveling to the stone from an inn, there is a sharan man who is trying to sell silk worms (known to the reader as a sharan because of his tonal cadence and accent), to which Rand makes some comment about how everyone knows silk grows on trees and the seanchan seeker says nope its worm then fades into the street... makes me wonder if this guy was sent to scout by Demamdred or something?

Basically, this did not feel very much like a WOT story, despite having WOT characters and creatures. I did enjoy it enough to want to continue reading more of Demandred's years in Shara. I liked it...but this book will never sit on my Wheel of Time book shelf with the rest of Wheel of Time books.

eht slat meit
07-06-2013, 06:22 PM
I'm still unsure how the Sharan prophecies could be valid and really be about Demandred yet in the end the Wyld slayed no Dragon. Without the actual devious wording of those prophecies to work out how this fooled the very intelligent Demandred into embracing a virtually religious quest(which is pretty important since it's like the foundation of his whole arc and the key to motives of his actions/decisions in the series), it seems like weak storytelling to me.


Balance the information you have. He states that his prophesied quest is to kill the Dragon. We can read between the self-aggrandizing lines of:

"He is false, I am true."

that Sharan prophesy actually states that he will kill a false Dragon, as he clearly believes he is the TRUE Dragon. He's not out on the battlefield hunting himself, so somewhere along the lines, his self-pride deluded him into believe that not only should he have been the True Dragon, but he IS the True Dragon. Legend in his own mind.

However, we the omniscient readers know that Rand IS the true Dragon. Therefore when De-Bao-dred runs off on his suicidal battlefield rampage/quest to kill Rand, he was very successful in killing the false Dragon.

Himself.

Ieyasu
07-07-2013, 02:00 PM
Balance the information you have. He states that his prophesied quest is to kill the Dragon. We can read between the self-aggrandizing lines of:

"He is false, I am true."

that Sharan prophesy actually states that he will kill a false Dragon, as he clearly believes he is the TRUE Dragon. He's not out on the battlefield hunting himself, so somewhere along the lines, his self-pride deluded him into believe that not only should he have been the True Dragon, but he IS the True Dragon. Legend in his own mind.

However, we the omniscient readers know that Rand IS the true Dragon. Therefore when De-Bao-dred runs off on his suicidal battlefield rampage/quest to kill Rand, he was very successful in killing the false Dragon.

Himself.

Wrong.

The little we know of the Sharan prophecies say absolutely nothing about any false dragon. They say nothing about Demandred being a real or false dragon. They say he will be a Dragonslayer. That he will end the Dragon's "Dream" and remake the world.

I think this line of prophecies are akin to the Borderlander prophecy. It was a redundant prophecy to ensure that the one and only Dragon Reborn was fit to remake the world. I think had Rand not had his mountain moment, then Demandred would actually have been a 'good guy'... killing Dark Rand on the field before he could fuck up the world with the Darkone... then the Seanchan would have come thru and defeated Demandred and the rest of the shadow... resulting in a tie that would lead the world limping on until the next "Last Battle" or Demandred might have gone on and done what Rand himself did... either way, the only mention of Dragon's we saw in the Sharan prophecies was the Dragon that Demandred was supposed to slay... Rand remained good, this fork wasnt required... so it fizzled with some strong drugs and bad armor...

eht slat meit
07-07-2013, 03:41 PM
Wrong.

The little we know of the Sharan prophecies say absolutely nothing about any false dragon. They say nothing about Demandred being a real or false dragon. They say he will be a Dragonslayer. That he will end the Dragon's "Dream" and remake the world.

Basing my position from the books, and couldn't find much in the way of specifics on that. As I understand it, Unfettered is questionable canon, so I didn't count not having read the books against it. For the sake of argument, I can call it canon.

As Sharan prophecy apparently makes no distinction between false and true dragon, it makes sense that Demandred had no problem with calling himself one.

I could argue that being a "dragon" slayer is wildly open to interpretation as there are four, not one, but I'm still sticking with what I already said.

Demandred called himself a Dragon and indulged in a suicidal fantasty that got himself killed. He is *A* Dragonslayer, and in doing so, he ended his own dream of being LTT. You'll note that he's already remade the world without realizing it in several ways:

1. He brought a previously known but unrecognized nation of people who are not bound by the Dragon's Peace into direct contact with the rest of the world. That's huge.

2. He killed Gawyn. Naw, i just included that so I could laugh.

3. He's directly responsible for the deaths of both the Amyrlin and the M'Hael, which leaves two of the most influential powers, White and Black Tower in a state of questionable repair if/until Cadsuane and Logain remake them in some unknown image. It's not going to be Egwene's world, and Logain's motivations are unknown.

4. On a more abstract level, he may have taught Taim the 13x13 method, which if Rand had not been able to recognize an element of it in "Utopia-Elayne's" eyes, might have caused him to pursue his own Dream of a world without the Dark One.

That's just the most obvious Last Battle stuff - there's a lot more that probably stems directly from his alliance with Mesaana and Semirhage.

He's remade the world, just won't be alive to see it and reap the rewards.

GonzoTheGreat
07-08-2013, 03:03 AM
... either way, the only mention of Dragon's we saw in the Sharan prophecies was the Dragon that Demandred was supposed to slay...
Well, there was also the bit which we saw earlier:
"There is never fighting in Shara, Rand al’Thor. It is said the Trolloc Wars infested them" – Trollocs had entered the Aiel Waste too; since then the Trolloc name for the Aiel Waste was the Dying Ground – "but if there has been one battle since, no word of it has come to the tradeholds. Not much word of anything outside the holdwalls does come inside. They say their land has always been one, not many as here, always at peace. When you came from Rhuidean as the Car’a’carn, word of you spread, and of your title among the wetlanders here. The Dragon Reborn. Word traveled to the tradeholds along the Great Rift and the Cliffs of Dawn." Rhuarc’s eyes were calm and steady; this did not trouble him. "Now word comes back across the Three-fold Land. There is fighting in Shara, and Sharamen in the tradeholds ask when the Dragon Reborn will Break the World."

Tollingtoy
07-08-2013, 10:08 AM
I always assumed that Moridin altered the Sharan prophecy in the same way he altered the Seanchan ones.

Ieyasu
07-09-2013, 12:19 AM
As Sharan prophecy apparently makes no distinction between false and true dragon, it makes sense that Demandred had no problem with calling himself one.

Source required. When, exactly, do you think Demandred (or anyone else) ever called him a Dragon?


Demandred called himself a Dragon...

Please provide a quote from Demandred (or any Sharan...hell anyone at all) to back this claim up. It can be from any book, including Unfettered. I would be very interested in seeing where you think he (or anyone else of any nationality) ever referred to himself as a Dragon... real or false.

You will not find it because it does not exist. No Sharan ever referred to him as a Dragon, only Dragonslayer, which is what Wy-eld translates into from the Sharan language. He did, however, refer to himself the true "Savior of this world", as did both Shendla and Mentil... perhaps this is your confusion with thinking Demandred claimed to be a Dragon?

eht slat meit
07-09-2013, 06:34 AM
Source required. When, exactly, do you think Demandred (or anyone else) ever called him a Dragon?

Context, context, context.

Demandred spent his entire introductory piece less-than-subtly implying that he is the true Dragon Reborn. Page 406.

"the one who calls himself Dragon Reborn" - We know Rand IS the Dragon Reborn, not just calling himself that. Apparently Demandred does not.

"I have fulfilled their prophecies. He is false, I am true." ~ Pretty straightforward, if ignorant on Demandred's part, but then as Demandred is apparently meeting a new-age Aes Sedai for the first time, perhaps he can be forgiven for his ignorance.

So yeah - that's Demandred outright calling LTT a false dragon and stating that he is the true dragon reborn.

Apparently he believes that killing false dragons means he fulfills prophecy. And in a way it does, as he slayed himself pretty darn well.

He did not refer to himself as the Wyld until after calling LTT a false dragon.

Ieyasu
07-09-2013, 08:09 PM
Context, context, context.

Demandred spent his entire introductory piece less-than-subtly implying that he is the true Dragon Reborn. Page 406.

Unfettered would have been in the book prior to page 406 fyi... prior to his arrival at the Last Battle.

He never implied at all that he was anything more than a dragonslayer. He implied he was the "True Savior of this World" as the Sharan prophecies said he would be, after he slayed the Dragon.


"I have fulfilled their prophecies. He is false, I am true." ~ Pretty straightforward, if ignorant on Demandred's part, but then as Demandred is apparently meeting a new-age Aes Sedai for the first time, perhaps he can be forgiven for his ignorance.

Again, showing that the Sharan prophecies show the Dragonslayer as the "True Savior of this World" Demandred is true... Rand is not the true savior... again, I view this as more redundancy on the Pattern's part, to ensure that Rand is in the right frame of mind to do what he must do.



So yeah - that's Demandred outright calling LTT a false dragon and stating that he is the true dragon reborn.

Yeah so.... this is Demandred repeating the Sharan view that he, as the DRAGONSLAYER is the TRUE SAVIOR


Apparently he believes that killing false dragons means he fulfills prophecy. And in a way it does, as he slayed himself pretty darn well.

He did not refer to himself as the Wyld until after calling LTT a false dragon.

Very wrong. He referred to himself as Wyld after he defeated the Jumara, in Shara, well before his arrival at the Last Battle on page 378 or his rant to Leane on page 406 you tried to partially quote. He refused to allow his Sharan friend to call him Wyld before he did his 3 day trip down the River of Souls... but he immediately announced it to Shendla and Mentil once he came back victorious.

Apparently he believes that freeing the Sharan male channelers, according to prophecy. Starting a revolution and taking control of the country (which Graendal unwittingly made easier for him by kidnapping the current reigning monarchs for her 10 minute convo with Sammael), again, according to prophecy. Getting the handle first, then defeating a full grown jumara to get the cup to complete his sa'angreal, yet again according to prophecy. Hard work for 2 full years, in fulfilling the Sharan prophecies, that was how he gained their loyalty towards him, even though he was clearly evil and siding with the Shadow... as does Shendla and Mentil, who also agree that he fulfilled them as well, and who are both leaders of various factions within Shara, and who accept that even with siding with the Shadow, he was still going to SAVE them, according to their prophecies.

The only parts of the Sharan Prophecies he failed to fulfill were to "end the Dragon's Dream, and remake the world, saving the Sharan people"

Can you quote that again IN FULL so you can get that proper context you were chanting about? I saw no references to Dragons... only references to who would actually save the world: Rand Al'Thor, Dragon Reborn or Bao the Wyld, Dragonslayer, and True Savior of this World. Demandred knew Lews Therin, the DRAGON He refers to Rand as both Lews Therin, Dragon, and Dragon Reborn. He never once refers to himself as anything more than Wyld which as we know from unfettered, means DRAGONSLAYER

nevermind, I will quote it for you:


Bao still had her chin cupped in his hand. "You are a beautiful thing," he said. "Unfortunately, beauty is meaningless. You are to deliver a message for me, Aes Sedai, to Lews Therin. The one who calls himself the Dragon Reborn. Tell him I have come to slay him, and in so doing, I will claim this world. I will take what originally should have been mine. Tell him that. Tell him you have seen me, and describe me to him. He will know me.
"Just as the people here awaited him with prophecy, just as they showered him with glory, the people of my land awaited me. I have fulfilled their prophecies. He is false, and I am true. Tell him I will finally have satisfaction. He is to come to me, so that we may face one another. If he does not, I will slaughter and destroy, I will seize his people. I will enslave his children, I will take his women for my own. One by one, I will break, destroy, or dominate everything he has loved. The only way for him to avoid this is for him to come and face me.
"Tell him this, little Aes Sedai. Tell him that an old friend awaits, I am Bao, the Wyld. He Who Is Owned Only by the Land. The dragonslayer. He knew me once by a name I have scored, the name Barid Bel."

GonzoTheGreat
07-10-2013, 03:03 AM
I had overlooked those claims of Demandred's when I read that passage. Quite interesting, especially the "He Who Is Owned Only by the Land" combined with the following:
"The Queen is wed to the land," Thom said as brightly colored balls danced in a circle, "but the Dragon ... the Dragon is one with the land, and the land is one with the Dragon."
So Rand owned Demandred?

Terez
07-10-2013, 05:59 AM
D'amandred

eht slat meit
07-10-2013, 11:57 AM
Unfettered would have been in the book prior to page 406 fyi... prior to his arrival at the Last Battle.

Would have been, but was cut. As I said, questionable canon and I believe is acknowledged as such by BS himself.

He never implied at all that he was anything more than a dragonslayer. He implied he was the "True Savior of this World" as the Sharan prophecies said he would be, after he slayed the Dragon.

You don't have a source showing the Sharan prophecies said any such thing. You're drawing what he "implied" from what you think the text of page 470 meant. Competing theory about what he was implying? Okay, cool.

Again, showing that the Sharan prophecies show the Dragonslayer as the "True Savior of this World" Demandred is true...

Implying, not showing. If you have a source for the exact text of the Sharan prophecies, share. This is theory material, not gospel.

Rand is not the true savior...

Which could as easily be referencing the Karaethon Cycle. I'm not assuming Demandred to be ignorant of that set of prophecies, and those prophecies do state

I don't know about you, but that seems contradictory to me - Rand can't be the Dragon Reborn AND not bring the world's salvation unless Demandred is completely ignorant and has discounted the entire Karaethon Cycle.

again, I view this as more redundancy on the Pattern's part,

It's not redundancy if the two sets of prophecy conflict. However, we don't have any textual evidence that allows us to reconcile one against the other. I am speculating based on the belief that both sets of prophecy are valid, and that Demandred's failure is similar to Elaida's in that he interpreted it according to his desires rather than what would actually happen.

Very wrong. He referred to himself as Wyld after he defeated the Jumara, in Shara, well before his arrival at the Last Battle on page 378 or his rant to Leane on page 406 you tried to partially quote.

I partially quoted it on what I feel is relevant and text. As far as the Jumara and the rest of it goes, that's contextually irrelevant. Why would Leanne know anything about "the Wyld" until he adds it as an afterthought? Right, she wouldn't and he would know that. Because he's smarter than the average Forsaken.

Snipped related text and speculation about Sharan prophecies that aren't represented in verse.

The only parts of the Sharan Prophecies he failed to fulfill were to "end the Dragon's Dream, and remake the world, saving the Sharan people"

Which would render the whole prophecy a sack of garbage because it's clearly suspect. I don't believe that's the case. I believe that, like with Elaida, it's interpretaiton.

Can you quote that again IN FULL so you can get that proper context you were chanting about?

If you want to lower the bar of this argument, please keep making snide comments about "chanting".

Ieyasu
07-10-2013, 08:18 PM
Would have been, but was cut. As I said, questionable canon and I believe is acknowledged as such by BS himself.

You yourself already said you would accept Unfettered as canon. BS himself said he accepted it, only the world building he used for Sharan might be questionable, either way, you cant make this false timeline claim:


He did not refer to himself as the Wyld until after calling LTT a false dragon.

...and then quibble when I point out that the reality is he was called himself Wyld long before his introductory rant to Lean on page 406 that you brought up. He never even called him a False Dragon... you do understand the parts of speech right? The difference between a noun, pronoun, and an adjective? Is this sentence what is confusing you?


He is false, and I am true.

You do realize which pronoun this adjective is modifying, right? Try using an online tool to break it down into its parts of speech. Might clear up your mistake here.


You don't have a source showing the Sharan prophecies said any such thing. You're drawing what he "implied" from what you think the text of page 470 meant.
&
Implying, not showing. If you have a source for the exact text of the Sharan prophecies, share. This is theory material, not gospel.
I don't? lol :rolleyes: I imply nothing from AMOL... rather I use the new evidence presented in Unfettered:

"Bah!" he said, pulling away from her. "You are fools, all of you. I don't care for your prophecies! I speak the worlds so I can control you. How can you not see this?"
"You have come to save us," she said. "You break us free of fate's charms. You did not know the prophecies when you first came-you have said so yourself-but you fulfilled them anyway."
"By accident."
"Releasing the enslaved, declaring all men free? That was an accident?"
"I did it to create chaos!" he said, turning.
"You have brought us unity," she replied. "You have brought us glory. The Dragon has come, Bao. Every man and woman in this land can feel it. He will try to destroy the world, and only you can stop him. There is a reason you have done what you did. The Tapestry...shall I call it by your word? The Pattern? It has brought you, and once you step into that cavern below, we will be freed from fate and be made our own people again."
;) no we do not have the exact words of those prophecies, much like we dont have the exact words of most of the prophecies from the essik or karaethon cycles that Rand fulfilled... but we do know that Demandred fulfilled multiple prophecies there, and was acknowledged by the populace as doing such. We know what several of them were, and we also witnessed him fulfilling another... are you attempting to deny that Demandred fulfilled any prophecies in Shara, what so ever, merely because you dont know the exact wording of those prophecies? lol seriously?!?

As for page 470? :confused: I have no idea what you are babbling about... page 470 is nothing but Egwene and Fortuana's meeting together, completely unrelated to your belief that Demandred thought he was the Dragon Reborn. Are you perhaps talking about page 406 that you mentioned earlier? or page 378 that I mentioned (Sharan arrival at the Last Battle)?


I don't know about you, but that seems contradictory to me - Rand can't be the Dragon Reborn AND not bring the world's salvation unless Demandred is completely ignorant and has discounted the entire Karaethon Cycle.


LOL... Rand is the Dragon Reborn by nature of being the reborn soul of Lews Therin the Dragon... not by being a savior. As seen from the Borderland Fork, even the Karaethon Cycle acknowledged that Rand, the Dragon Reborn, had the capacity to be this world's destroyer... all while remaining the DRAGON REBORN at the same time


It's not redundancy if the two sets of prophecy conflict. However, we don't have any textual evidence that allows us to reconcile one against the other. I am speculating based on the belief that both sets of prophecy are valid, and that Demandred's failure is similar to Elaida's in that he interpreted it according to his desires rather than what would actually happen.

It is redundant because I view it is along the same line as the Boarderlander Fork which would have them attempt to kill Rand if he was unfit to face the Last Battle. Well, as Rand himself pointed out, he would have True Power Balefired them before his mountain moment, since the Guardian only blocks Saidin and Saidar. Had he still been Dark Rand, the Boarderlander check on the Dragon Reborn would have failed...leaving only Demandred to stop Rand from destroying the world... when Rand passed the Boarderlander's test, he made the Sharan prophecies redundant.


I partially quoted it on what I feel is relevant and text.

You partially quoted it because the rest shows that nothing Demandred said ever indicated he suddenly believed he was Lews Therin reborn. There is only one Dragon... Demandred was his friend far longer than he was his enemy... he was batshit crazy, but not crazy enough to suddenly think he was the reborn soul of someone he actually knew


If you want to lower the bar of this argument, please keep making snide comments about "chanting".

Context, context, context.
:rolleyes:lol...exactly how many times do you have to repeat a word before it is chanting? The bar cant get much lower when you keep arguing that Demandred suddenly up and thought he was the reborn soul of his old friend, Lews Therin the Dragon...

kivo
07-16-2013, 09:26 PM
I paid $35 and that was 11 pages long.

That is all.

SauceyBlueConfetti
07-17-2013, 01:00 PM
"the one who calls himself Dragon Reborn" - We know Rand IS the Dragon Reborn, not just calling himself that. Apparently Demandred does not..

Small argument here, but I just see that sentence as an insult. We do know he is Lews T reborn, therefore the Dragon. Demandred is using it in a scornful way...sort of like saying to Wayne Gretky (hockey reference, sorry it was the first to come to mind)---who is KNOWN as The GREAT Gretzky---tell Wayne I want to play against him, you know, the one who calls himself GREAT. Cuz he thinks he is GREAT but I am better and his nickname therefore is just stupid so I will mock it.

It is an insult, pure and simple, and in his mind a goading one in particular. Demandred is fueled by jealousy and anger, so to him it would be a pretty big insult to say, "ha, you have a nickname, THE DRAGON REBORN, and you think you are high-falutin' but you AREN'T Mr. Dragon Reborn. Nya nya nya nya nya nya. You may call yourself the Dragon Reborn, but I am still, and always have been, better than you."

All he is trying to do is goad Rand into facing him. I never took this as him saying Rand IS NOT the tru DR.

SauceyBlueConfetti
07-17-2013, 01:04 PM
I paid $35 and that was 11 pages long.

That is all.

You understood the point of releasing the ANTHOLOGY was to raise money for medical costs for the editor of the ANTHOLOGY?

If you just wanted Brandon's bit, Tor released that PART of the ANTHOLOGY for .99. You get what an ANTHOLOGY is, right? lolololol

GonzoTheGreat
07-17-2013, 01:15 PM
You get what an ANTHOLOGY is, right?
I know what an ant is, but what is a hology?

SauceyBlueConfetti
07-17-2013, 01:49 PM
Gonzo you are more funny when you don't TRY so hard.

:D

GonzoTheGreat
07-17-2013, 02:58 PM
I admit that I had to think a while about whether I should put "a" or "an" in front of "hology". I'm still not sure I got it right.

Dom
07-20-2013, 11:02 AM
If you just wanted Brandon's bit, Tor released that PART of the ANTHOLOGY for .99. You get what an ANTHOLOGY is, right? lolololol

I've looked for that and can't find it. Are you sure you're not confusing it with the .99$ ebook of the same title in Tor's catalog?

SauceyBlueConfetti
07-20-2013, 06:27 PM
It was a special offer via email. I forwarded to a friend and yes it was this. Deleted the email but I have asked him if he still has it. Waiting on response. The ebook. WHOLE book is only 9.99 anyway on amazon.

Zombie Sammael
07-20-2013, 08:14 PM
Also, some of the stories in the book are pretty good. Others are pretty ropy, but that's more than made up for by the fact that, as I said, some are pretty good. It's not like anyone's really getting ripped off here.

Frenzy
07-24-2013, 01:08 AM
Ok, i bought only the short story called River of Souls from Tor for my Kindle, read the whole thing thinking it was the wrong story, got to the end and realized yes, it's the wrong damn short story.

May have to buy the whole thing just to make sure i get the right one. It's going to a good cause anyway, so i might as well...

Weiramon
08-17-2013, 12:28 AM
who is KNOWN as The GREAT Gretzky.

Bah. You may as well name him the Great One.

Daekyras
08-29-2013, 08:27 AM
I mildly enjoyed it.