PDA

View Full Version : Attempt at a new discussion - Rand's pipe


Yellowbeard
07-18-2013, 12:33 PM
So...Rand lighting his pipe without channeling. or using a match. I just skimmed back through the threads and didn't see much discussion on it beyond people shrugging their shoulders. BS has said explaining this is one of 3 things he will/cannot not do, and that RJ put it in without much more of an explanation.

So, what did RJ intend this to show about Rand? I read on another site that Osangar and Arangar couldn't channel at first when they first woke up after being transmigrated. They had to wait for their souls to acclimate to their new bodies. I don't remember if this is true, and don't have access to books currently, but if true, perhaps Rand will be channeling again shortly after acclimating to Moridin's body?

Maybe in combining the OP and TP like he did to reseal the DO, he now has access to a purer form of the power that is experienced differently?

Maybe he can manipulate the world through his will power in a TAR like fashion now after being outside the pattern and his battle of will power with the DO?

Anyone care to chime in?

Zombie Sammael
07-18-2013, 06:53 PM
It's sort of been discussed to death. I pretty much agree with your interpretation. It's actually stated in AMOL during the duel with the DO that Rand has stopped channeling the OP and is just channeling threads in the pattern. My take is that he continues to do that. He's constantly channeling, hence why he can't actually touch the source anymore; he doesn't have to.

In a wider sense, we know that this was RJ's scene and his choice of ending, and had little to do with Brandon other than tidying up. I think it's actually been treated in the way that was intended. RJ knew fans loved the mysteries of the series and so, at the end, he gave us one last mystery to wonder about, perhaps never to be resolved.

I do wonder what the consequences of having that sort of power might be for Rand. We know he intends to wander - a common choice, apparently, for retired heroes - but does he have the extended lifespan of a channeler? Or does he even have a lifespan? Could Nakomi, ultimately, be confirmation of the female dragon theory, an individual who at some undisclosed point in the past fulfilled the role Rand just did? Has he ever succeeded as totally as he did in AMOL before?

Isabel
07-18-2013, 10:29 PM
Nakomi cant be thefemale dragon since RJ said the dragon soul would always be male.

GonzoTheGreat
07-19-2013, 02:40 AM
Nakomi cant be the female dragon since RJ said the dragon soul would always be male.
Nakomi might have been Halima retransmogrified. That'd be a male soul in a female body, and Aviendha wouldn't sense her channeling.

Zombie Sammael
07-19-2013, 02:41 AM
Nakomi cant be thefemale dragon since RJ said the dragon soul would always be male.

But is the Light's champion always the Dragon? Explicitly, since the Dragon can and has turned to the Shadow in the past, it isn't. If Rand turned in some other turning, maybe the equivalent of Egwene was the one who went to Shayol Ghul and sealed the prison. Maybe that was Nakomi, who having achieved that, like Rand, now has pattern manipulation powers, and is simply undying. Or maybe not. These are theories that are beyond confirmation. And maybe beyond comprehension. But anything is possible.

GonzoTheGreat
07-19-2013, 02:49 AM
If Nakomi was the real Egwene, does that mean that the Egwene in the books was an imposter? That might explain why she didn't quite manage the standard of Egweneness from the earlier books. A good theory, that. When was the switch made, though?

Isabel
07-19-2013, 08:00 AM
But is the Light's champion always the Dragon? Explicitly, since the Dragon can and has turned to the Shadow in the past, it isn't. If Rand turned in some other turning, maybe the equivalent of Egwene was the one who went to Shayol Ghul and sealed the prison. Maybe that was Nakomi, who having achieved that, like Rand, now has pattern manipulation powers, and is simply undying. Or maybe not. These are theories that are beyond confirmation. And maybe beyond comprehension. But anything is possible.

Zombie: we dont even know for sure if RJ would have written Nakomi. Brandon said she came from deep within the notes, so it could be an i nterpretation.

fdsaf3
07-19-2013, 03:59 PM
The obvious interpretation is that Rand retained his Creator-like powers to weave threads of Pattern creation. But what if that's not it? What other off the cuff guesses can be made?

Well, here's one I just thought of. What if the Pattern, which went through quite a horrific ordeal, is weakened sufficiently for Rand's influence to directly affect the world? Whereas the Dark One was able to impact the world by reaching through the Bore, maybe (especially given the sudden absence of the Dark One and the power vacuum it might have created) Rand is able to exert good influences on the Pattern at will. I would guess this ability would fade in time as the Pattern corrected and repaired itself.

As far as the possibility of a female Dragon...

Let's try and clear some of this up... I can't remember the exact question, but from what I read in this thread, it doesn't matter (I haven't read the Female Dragon thread). RJ said that, no, it is not possible to have a female Dragon. If the wheel needs a female Dragon, then it would weave in *insert female Dragon name here*. Probably because of the blank faces he was getting he then added, you can find her in the scene where Mat blows the Horn...

He also said that a soul ready to be reborn cannot change gender, therefor the Dragon is ALWAYS male.

Has he ever succeeded as totally as he did in AMOL before?

I would hazard a guess that yes. Prior Rand-level Dragons (for lack of a better term) fully sealed the Dark One, only to have future generations eventually chip away at the gate. At least, that's my best guess.

Davian93
07-19-2013, 04:20 PM
Of course previous Dragons have succeeded on that level...otherwise, the DO's prison wouldn't have been complete when Mierin drilled into it in the AoL.

Zombie Sammael
07-19-2013, 06:32 PM
Just to clear it up, I probably promoted some confusion by using the term "female Dragon". What I'm NOT suggesting is that the LTT/Rand soul could be reborn in a female body. That's obviously impossible within the confines of the world as created by RJ, due to the way gender is constructed within that world.

What IS possible, however, is that someone else could fulfill the role taken by Rand in the final battle with the DO. How do I know that? Because it has to be: we know that the Dragon has turned to the shadow in past turnings, and we know that when he does it results in, essentially, a draw. If a shadow-turned Dragon went to Shayol Ghul and met with Shai'tan, then he would almost certainly choose to release the DO into the world and the pattern would be destroyed and remade; therefore, the turned Dragon has to die before Tarmon Gai'don (as Rand would have with the Borderlanders if he hadn't had his epiphany, for instance).

Now, the prison has to be sealed in order for the battle to be fought again as the next turning comes around. If the Dragon's not around to do it, it stands to reason that someone else would have to (we know it ain't gonna seal itself). That someone could be the turning's Logain, Androl, Mazrim Taim, even Demandred, given that Rand would be evil. But given that Rand was linked with two females and channeling saidar during the fight, there's no reason why the person taking his place couldn't be a woman, linked with a man, so Egwene, Cadsuane, Aviendha, whoever. Hence, a female taking on the role of the Dragon, or female Dragon.

The looney part of my theory comes in suggesting that Nakomi might be someone who did this, and that reaching the ascendant level of channeling threads in the pattern rather than the OP somehow prevents her from dying, in which case it would do the same for Rand, and some other poor soul would have to take the part of the Dragon in future turnings. But if looney theories aren't acceptable at this stage, then we really have nothing left to talk about.

Yellowbeard
07-23-2013, 12:45 PM
In a wider sense, we know that this was RJ's scene and his choice of ending, and had little to do with Brandon other than tidying up. I think it's actually been treated in the way that was intended. RJ knew fans loved the mysteries of the series and so, at the end, he gave us one last mystery to wonder about, perhaps never to be resolved.

I do wonder what the consequences of having that sort of power might be for Rand. We know he intends to wander - a common choice, apparently, for retired heroes - but does he have the extended lifespan of a channeler? Or does he even have a lifespan? Could Nakomi, ultimately, be confirmation of the female dragon theory, an individual who at some undisclosed point in the past fulfilled the role Rand just did? Has he ever succeeded as totally as he did in AMOL before?

I can't help thinking RJ had further plans for Rand, and we know he had an idea for Matt and Tuon.

I think that the Dragon Soul has indeed succeeded that totally before. If there have been prior turnings where the DO's prison was compromised, then someone had to have fixed it in order for it to be breached again the AoL.

As for Nakomi having done what Rand just did before, I guess I kind of lean more towards she's an angel/messenger/etc. of the Creator instead. BS said she was buried deep in RJ's notes, and we don't even know if RJ would have put her in himself or not. Makes you wonder what else was in RJ's notes that might not have made it into the books.

I realize there were contradictory items in the notes and outlines from what BS's books were drawn, but I think those notes actually being published would be fascinating. Kind of like reading Tolkien's Book of Lost Tales, and similar stuff, and seeing how the stories changed vs. the Silmarillion.

padfoot89
09-02-2013, 05:22 PM
Min has a viewing of a pipe in ToM right after Rand returns from Dragonmount. So it seems that Rand's new found ability was all part of the wheel's plan.

Isabel
09-02-2013, 06:56 PM
It was part of RJ's ending:)

padfoot89
09-03-2013, 09:51 AM
Right. I mean it points to an in-universe explanation of his new abilities. Some people I know think RJ randomly put it in just to mess with us.

Isabel
09-03-2013, 01:08 PM
Haha, i think its both:) he talked about this thing for years, so he did put it in to make us squirm.
But rj also had everything well thought out:) so it is according to the wot universe.

Southpaw2012
09-10-2013, 07:52 PM
Haha, i think its both:) he talked about this thing for years, so he did put it in to make us squirm.
But rj also had everything well thought out:) so it is according to the wot universe.


I never got to meet the guy unfortunately but I can imagine that he was probably laughing as he wrote the scene.

Isabel
09-11-2013, 09:29 AM
Hopefully he was:)