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Great Lord of the Dark
09-16-2013, 11:44 PM
Bryne is a warder. His dreams should be shielded. Hessalam still messes with him.

Was Hessalam just using Tel'aran'rhiod as a means to get from A to B without being detected? Was all her Compulsion taking place in the waking world? If these are so, why wasn't everyone in Bryne's tent reacting to her arrival? If she was waiting until he was alone or asleep, how could she tell it was safe to step in and not get taken down by Siuan or a Sitter who happened to be nearby?

The same may be true for other Great Captains, but Bryne has all the Aes Sedai with and is a Warder to boot. If the means of describing his fall is made clear, the others are even easier to explain.

More detail than 'Hessalam is just THAT good' or 'Brandon forgot' would be appreciated.

Discuss!

Zombie Sammael
09-17-2013, 12:46 AM
It's reasonable to think that Hessalam is just that good at compulsion, but we know she wasn't all that in TAR. A possible theory is that physical proximity to a sleeping body in TAR makes it easier for a skilled compulsionist to work her evil magic, thus making it possible for Hessalam to do what she did to Bryne.

Another possibility is that Warders' dreams are not warded automatically; while they gain protection as a result of the bond they must still be taught to turn that on. If Siuan simply didn't have time to instruct Bryne in doing that then Hessalam would have had a clear way in. There is some evidence that this might be the case; Rand had to learn to ward his dreams even despite the protection afforded by the One Power, so maybe it isn't automatic. It might also have something to do with will power. Lan and Rand both clearly have that in spades. Bryne? Perhaps not so much.

GonzoTheGreat
09-17-2013, 04:18 AM
Well, we know that the Compulsion which the Forsaken use is a rather more effective and powerful version than the rudimentary attempts the Black Ajah had available. That's shown clearly when Moghedien and Liandrin confront each other.
We also know that the Warder bond was only developed when that Forsaken type Compulsion had vanished from the Earth, so the only actual test the AS had was against the BA version.

Thus, the fact that it was full proof against the BA version does not necessarily mean that it also works against the real thing, but Moiraine wouldn't have known about that at all.

Case in point: Halima could also mess with Egwene in such a way, even though Egwene as AS should have been protected against that kind of tampering according to what Moiraine said.

Davian93
09-17-2013, 09:04 AM
Another possibility: Moiraine was the source of the "AS & Warders dreams are protected, etc etc"

Perhaps, like with many other things, she was wrong and AS were wrong in general in that belief?

SauceyBlueConfetti
09-17-2013, 02:01 PM
Moiraine answered calmly. "Aes Sedai learn to shield their dreams. I do it without thinking, when I sleep. Warders are given something much the same in the bonding. The Gaidin could not do what they must if the Shadow could steal into their dreams. We are all vulnerable when we sleep, and the Shadow is strong in the night."


Three things

1. I caught this in another comment by Rand regarding his dreams, you have to shield your dreams every time. You dont just weave and have it done forever, you must remember to do it each time.

2. Warders are given "something much the same". But apparently not exactly.

3. Moraine comments in an early book (EotW?) that her nearness to the boys could help the dreams. So proximity helps. And vice versa.

Each of these things leaves a gap of coverage, apparently. And RJ foreshadowed it pretty clearly in the quote above ;)

Davian93
09-17-2013, 02:43 PM
Three things

1. I caught this in another comment by Rand regarding his dreams, you have to shield your dreams every time. You dont just weave and have it done forever, you must remember to do it each time.

2. Warders are given "something much the same". But apparently not exactly.

3. Moraine comments in an early book (EotW?) that her nearness to the boys could help the dreams. So proximity helps. And vice versa.

Each of these things leaves a gap of coverage, apparently. And RJ foreshadowed it pretty clearly in the quote above ;)

Those are all great points...and remember those are the known "facts" even before the Forsaken are loose. You have to imagine if there is any gap at all in those protections that a Forsaken would know about them.

Thus, I highly doubt it was a mistake by Brandon and was actually intentionally put in there by RJ way, way back in the beginning as he was quite wont to do.

Ishara
09-18-2013, 11:18 AM
So then, we're to extrapolate from the quotes and other examples that,

a) Suian didn't teach Bryne how to turn it on, for whatever reason (doubtful),

b) Bryne didn't 'turn it on' every time he slept, for whatever reason (again, doubtful),

c) despite 'turning on' a ward, Suian was too far away from Bryne while he slept to augment/ protect the ward (super doubtful, ahem)

d) despite warding his dream, and despite having his Aes Sedai in close proximity (read: right beside him in bed), Hessalam was able to find a loophole while he was sleeping and take advantage of it.

It feels like we all agree that Option D is the one to go with - and I'd say that Suian would have taken recautions to Ward their tent against physical intruders as well, so it must have been TAR.

Zombie Sammael
09-18-2013, 09:00 PM
So then, we're to extrapolate from the quotes and other examples that,

a) Suian didn't teach Bryne how to turn it on, for whatever reason (doubtful),

b) Bryne didn't 'turn it on' every time he slept, for whatever reason (again, doubtful),

c) despite 'turning on' a ward, Suian was too far away from Bryne while he slept to augment/ protect the ward (super doubtful, ahem)

d) despite warding his dream, and despite having his Aes Sedai in close proximity (read: right beside him in bed), Hessalam was able to find a loophole while he was sleeping and take advantage of it.

It feels like we all agree that Option D is the one to go with - and I'd say that Suian would have taken recautions to Ward their tent against physical intruders as well, so it must have been TAR.

These four things are not mutually exclusive. You also state no reason why options a or b are doubtful; Siuan and Bryne were both rather busy with other things during the time after they bonded, after all.

GonzoTheGreat
09-19-2013, 05:05 AM
These four things are not mutually exclusive. You also state no reason why options a or b are doubtful; Siuan and Bryne were both rather busy with other things during the time after they bonded, after all.
Yes, but apart from being "busy with those other things" (see point c), they were also rather heavily involved in the fight against the Shadow, for which that "dream protection" is an AS basic.

On the other hand: apparently Egwene didn't have much trouble breaking through the wards on most (maybe all) AS's dreams when she wanted to send a message, so it is quite likely that others had such an ability too.

Ishara
09-19-2013, 08:42 AM
Exactly, Zombie. There's simply no way that Suian - an Aes Sedai who had seen personally the impacts of the Black Ajah and the Forsaken - would forget to Ward her dreams, or that of her Warder. It simply isn't worth contemplating, it's SO out of character.

To Gonzo's point though, I think he's on to something. Egwene is the first Dreamer Aes Sedai in forever, and she can manipulate a Ward enough to communicate with the dreams of an Aes Sedai. I would say that a Forsaken from the Age of Legends (who ever thought that distinction would be necessary?!) would know things about the manipulation of TAR and the GOI that maybe even Egwene with her limited training may not. Therefore, I find it most likely that Hessalam managed to weasel her way past the Wards set and do her damage. Suian and Bryne, lulled into a sense of security by their protection which had never been tested before, fell prey to her.

Davian93
09-19-2013, 10:43 AM
I would say that a Forsaken from the Age of Legends (who ever thought that distinction would be necessary?!)

~raises hand~

Well, I did start a Faction and everything...remember?

Weird Harold
09-19-2013, 11:00 AM
<Moiraine's quote>

IIRC, Moiraine was explaining why Sammael's involuntary dream projections didn't affect her (and she didn't involuntarily project her dreams.)

Aes Sedai would be aware of the problem of Channelers involuntarily projecting dreams and develop wards to address that problem. If they were aware at all of the possibility of someone deliberately tampering with someone's dreams, it would have been a distant memory associated with a Lost Talent.

I don't think Aes Sedai dream wards -- and the protection afforded Gaidin -- was more than a muting of involuntary outside influences and not effective at all against deliberate contacts.

Some characters did have dream wards effective against Egwene -- Nyneave and Rand are specifically mentioned as being un-contactable, IIRC.

SauceyBlueConfetti
09-19-2013, 11:08 AM
Some characters did have dream wards effective against Egwene -- Nyneave and Rand are specifically mentioned as being un-contactable, IIRC.

Moriidin and Cyndane figured out how to get to Rand

GonzoTheGreat
09-19-2013, 11:08 AM
Rand, yes, but I don't know about Nynaeve. And of course we know that Lanfear managed to get through Rand's AOL level ward, so not even that is a total guarantee.

SauceyBlueConfetti
09-19-2013, 11:13 AM
Rand, yes, but I don't know about Nynaeve. And of course we know that Lanfear managed to get through Rand's AOL level ward, so not even that is a total guarantee.

That kind of proves out the point. Byrne wasn't Rand. Specifically looking for a way in and targeting a non channeler with little reason to even expect the invasion of dreams during an overly stressful time = yeah it can happen

Davian93
09-19-2013, 12:41 PM
So basically we all agree that it was possible and shown to be repeatedly in the books.

Hugh the Hand
09-20-2013, 11:09 AM
So basically we all agree that it was possible and shown to be repeatedly in the books.

Well that almost never happens....

Zombie Sammael
09-20-2013, 07:48 PM
Well that almost never happens....

</Theoryland>

Seeker
09-25-2013, 01:51 AM
Ward = Firewall.

Any firewall can be broken if you learn the protocols; that's why IT Security is constantly coming out with new products.

Graendel can hack.

GonzoTheGreat
09-25-2013, 04:10 AM
Ward = Firewall.

Any firewall can be broken if you learn the protocols; that's why IT Security is constantly coming out with new products.

Graendel can hack.
Well, not necessarily. A firewall is intended to let at least some things in. If you simply block off all outside access of a certain type (say, not connect your computer to the Internet at all), then a hacker can't break in from the outside either.

Or, in firewall terms: if the only existing protocol is "ignore", then getting the firewall to do anything else is not possible from outside.

I think that Graendal simply bypassed the route the ward was supposed to protect, and used another way of inserting her instructions entirely.

Seeker
09-25-2013, 12:08 PM
I'm saying she used a weave of the one power to cut through the ward. A very delicate weave that would not disturb Bryne's sleep.

SauceyBlueConfetti
09-25-2013, 12:15 PM
EGWENE (edited) makes a comment somewhere that she doesn't try getting to Rand 's dreams after he starts warding because she is afraid he will know she tried. That isn't a, lockdown, she likely could get in if she tried hard enough based on her (shown) innate skill level. Would a regular Joe like Bryne be able to recognize someone was poking about? Not likely.

EDIT NOTE: KINDLE HAS THE ABSOLUTE WORST AUTOCORRECT EVER !!!!

Seeker
09-25-2013, 01:17 PM
Greene makes a comment somewhere that she doesn't try getting to Rand 's dreams after he starts warding because she is afraid he will know she tried. That isn't a, lockdown, she likely could get in if she tried hard enough based on her (shown) innate skill level. Would a regular Joe like Bryne be able to recognize someone was poking about? Not likely.

Since Rand can lucid dream, it's very likely that if she were to try breaking his wards, he'd wake up almost immediately. It might be a good way to prevent him from getting any sleep but I'm not sure that would have occurred to Graendel.

Plus, Moridin's decree of "Leave al'Thor the #@%^ alone. He's mine!" and her recent punishment likely made her less inclined to try anything against Rand.

GonzoTheGreat
09-25-2013, 02:29 PM
EGWENE (edited) makes a comment somewhere that she doesn't try getting to Rand 's dreams after he starts warding because she is afraid he will know she tried. That isn't a, lockdown, she likely could get in if she tried hard enough based on her (shown) innate skill level. Would a regular Joe like Bryne be able to recognize someone was poking about? Not likely.
Citation needed:
With Nicola and Areinaís bowstrings dampened a little more, it was time to turn her attention to Rand. Unfortunately, finding his dreams would be as useless as finding an Aes Sedaiís. He shielded his somewhat as they did theirs, although apparently a manís shield differed from a womanís. An Aes Sedaiís shield was a crystal carapace, a seamless sphere woven of Spirit, but however transparent it appeared, it might as well have been steel. She could not recall how many fruitless hours she had frittered away trying to peer through his. Where a sister's shielded dream seemed brighter, close up, his were dimmer. It was like staring into muddy water; sometimes you had the impression that something had moved deep in those gray-brown swirls, but you could never tell what.
Maybe the following is what you're thinking of:
Randís dreams were always shielded, and she feared he might know when she tried to peek in. The shield would keep her from seeing anything, anyway.
True, here she suddenly worries about being detected, but that does not seem based on any real experience, even though she had spent a lot of time giving Rand the opportunity to detect her spying attempts.
Nor is there any indication that her confidence that she can eventually figure out how to break through is warranted. All in all, I would not consider her the final authority on what is and isn't possible with dreams.

EDIT NOTE: KINDLE HAS THE ABSOLUTE WORST AUTOCORRECT EVER !!!!
Citation needed.
I'm sure Microsoft has managed to outdo whatever Amazon could come up with. Though it is possible that Amazon bought a Microsoft product to do the autocorrect, I guess.

SauceyBlueConfetti
09-25-2013, 03:33 PM
Yes, that was the quote I was thinking about. Was just pulling it from memory, so the full quote wasn't in my heeeeeeead. Thanks.

It was, if I recall, fairly early in her dreamstalking career, so her beliefs about her skills (or lack thereof) were still not well formed, nor did she ever have any really intense training on the searching other's dreams.

So yeah, I still believe she could have done it if she tried. And with the Forsaken skills already mastered beyond most abilities, Graen-Hessa-ugly likely could get through.

Doesn't dismiss the fact Bryne likely had no way to recognize when someone was poking around in his dreams, whether warded, shielded, warder-enhanced-security or whatever we can assume he used.


ETA: and yeah, autocorrect sucks. Pretty much on everything. If I type Egwene and it replaces it with GREENE? ummm, nothing closer is in that dictionary? Blah.

Lupusdeusest
10-24-2013, 10:12 AM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A2rBiaYCUAAfCmZ.png


That one was one of my best. In convo with Zombie a while ago.

Also this - a small gallery (http://lupus-deus-est.deviantart.com/gallery/46434630) of WoT autocorrects I remembered to save in a logical fashion before a factory reset.

Enigma
10-24-2013, 03:52 PM
I seem to remember Lanfear not being happy that Rand was warding his dreams (one of the first things he got Asmodean to teach him) and she told him she could break through his wards. Not its possible she was lying but she had to know that Rand could check with Asmodean and she would look pretty foolish if Rand caught her in an outright lie. After all she was trying to convince him she was a friend at the time.

So I think its pretty clear that one can in certain circumstances break through a ward on one's dreams.

Next Egwene was afraid that if she tried to break Rand's wards he would sense her. Again we have no reason to doubt her. Does that mean that a regular Warder would also sense his dreams being interfered with? I don't think so for two reasons. As has been pointed out a regular Warden does not have the training/memories of training that Rand has. Secondly we don't know if the wards Rand uses and those the Warders have are one and the same.

Think of it this way. There are many different ways I can set up a security system on my home. Rand's version is military grade AoL wards. A warder's may be a less complex/powerful/ complete version. I would submit that we simply don't know but aside from a few areas where AS are ahead of AoL abilities most general AS skills are sub part compared to the AoL. So it might not be as hard to break into a Warder's dreams that some one like Rand.

As for would the Warder sense the effort? I suspect that would depend. Again I can break into someone's home by smashing down the front door. That's pretty guaranteed to wake everyone up in the house. This might be the only way to get through Rand's wards. On the other hand if I'm very skilled and the house security is not so good might I not be able to open a back window or take out a pane of glass and slip in with none of the occupants in the house being any the wiser. If the Warder ward is a watered down version of Rand's its possible a skilled channeler might be able to get in without setting off alarm bells.

GonzoTheGreat
10-25-2013, 04:38 AM
Secondly we don't know if the wards Rand uses and those the Warders have are one and the same.
Actually, we do have some reason to think that those wards are not the same. Rand's wards are made using saidin, and it seems unlikely that many other Warders would have ready access to the male half of the Source. As far as we know, until the fad for having Asha'man Warders spread, very few AS had a Warder who could channel.

Enigma
10-26-2013, 03:54 AM
I was thinking more of the design off the ward rather than saidin/ saidar. The material for want of a better word that Rand and the other asha'man use is defiantly different than that used by non channeling warders. And the weaves would be different but do the two wards do exactly the same thing? Do they achieve the end result in the same way? That's what I was getting at

GonzoTheGreat
10-26-2013, 04:47 AM
It seems unlikely that they would be that similar. True, with Traveling the results are the same, but that may be because those results are described in such generic terms (you go from A to B) that any differences get glossed over. But when it comes to other things (putting out fires, bonding warders, and such), then there are clear differences in what saidar and saidin do. Add to that that here we do not have a case of an AS putting this ward on herself, but of a Warder doing something based on a bond he himself can't see, and there is very little reason to think that they would be the same.