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SauceyBlueConfetti
12-04-2013, 05:16 PM
Mat sees Loial fighting, along with Seanchan Gardeners, and muses to himself:

Quiet Ogier. Now that was strange. Ogier at war, though...it was not something Mat had ever seen. He did not have any memory of it in the memories that were not his.

Interesting. Why no memories? Narrows the time frame of memories he received. It is possible the 'Finn (or their ability to cull memories) are more recent in history? Maybe they did not have access to folks in the Ages where Ogier were fierce fighters.

Weird Harold
12-04-2013, 05:48 PM
Mat sees Loial fighting, along with Seanchan Gardeners, and muses to himself:


Interesting. Why no memories? Narrows the time frame of memories he received. It is possible the 'Finn (or their ability to cull memories) are more recent in history? Maybe they did not have access to folks in the Ages where Ogier were fierce fighters.
Mat's *finn implanted memories were heavily edited and carefully chosen; not only restricted to a limited time span, but no memories of interaction with the *finn or anyone other than military men.

There is a quote from the books that gives the time frame of Mat's implanted memories, but I don't recall where to find it.

Davian93
12-04-2013, 07:31 PM
He has memories from just before the Trolloc Wars (he's dancing in a ball and there is mention of increasing raids along the Blight) to the end of Hawkwing's rise (his last memory is Aldeshar and the Golden Lions losing to Hawkwing and him dying I believe. (which was the last nation to fall to him)

Now, we know that Ogier fought in the Trolloc Wars and even Loial mentions it in tEotW when he mentions how sorry they were that they couldn't come to Manetheren's aid in time...so there is no reason he shouldn't have memory of them fighting considering how many battle memories he has from that period.

Clearly another oversight by the new author...and his editors.

Relevant quotes:


TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 5 - A Different Dance
In memory he was a head taller, with long golden mustaches and blue eyes. He wore a red-sashed coat of amber silk with a ruff of finest Barsine lace and yellow sapphire studs from Aramaelle on his chest, and he danced with a darkly beautiful emissary of the Atha'an Miere, the Sea Folk. The fine gold chain linking her nose ring to one of her multitude of earrings held tiny medallions that identified her as Wavemistress of Clan Shodin. He did not care how powerful she was; that was for the king to worry over, not a middling lord. She was beautiful and light in his arms, and they danced beneath the great crystal dome at the court of Shaemal, when all the world envied Coremanda's splendor and might. Other memories flitted around the edges, sparking off bits of that remembered dance. The morrow would bring news of increasingly heavy Trolloc raids out of the Great Blight, and another month word that Barsine of the golden spires had been ravaged and burned and the Trolloc hordes were sweeping south. So would begin what later would be called the Trolloc Wars, though none gave it that name to begin, three hundred years and more of all but unbroken battle, blood, fire and ruin before the Trollocs were driven back, the Dreadlords hunted down.

This one is better and it shows I was off by about 500 years (earlier than I recalled)


TITLE: Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 22 - Birdcalls by Night
Grunting, he closed his eyes again. Cute? Light! And short. Only Aiel could call him short. In every other land he had been in, he was taller than most men, if not always by much. He could remember being tall. Taller than Rand, when he rode against Artur Hawkwing. And a hand shorter than he was now when he fought beside Maecine against the Aelgari. He had spoken to Lan, claiming he had overheard some names; the Warder said Maecine had been a king of Eharon, one of the Ten Nations-that much Mat, already knew-some four or five hundred years before the Trolloc Wars. Lan doubted that even the Brown Ajah knew more; much had been lost in the Trolloc Wars, and more in the War of the Hundred Years. Those were the earliest and latest of the memories that had been planted in his skull. Nothing after Artur Paendrag Tanreall, and nothing before Maecine of Eharon.

Hugh the Hand
12-04-2013, 07:34 PM
Grunting, he closed his eyes again. Cute? Light! And short. Only Aiel could call him short. In every other land he had been in, he was taller than most men, if not always by much. He could remember being tall. Taller than Rand, when he rode against Artur Hawkwing. And a hand shorter than he was now when he fought beside Maecine against the Aelgari. He had spoken to Lan, claiming he had overheard some names; the Warder said Maecine had been a king of Eharon, one of the Ten Nations ... that much Mat already knew ... some four or five hundred years before the Trolloc Wars. Lan doubted that even the Brown Ajah knew more; much had been lost in the Trolloc Wars, and more in the War of the Hundred Years. Those were the earliest and latest of the memories that had been planted in his skull. Nothing after Artur Paendrag Tanreall, and nothing before Maecine of Eharon (TFoH, Ch. 22).

It is prob a mistake, or perhaps his memories and the people they came from simply never saw them fight.

Davian93
12-04-2013, 07:39 PM
Gotta be a mistake....considering how many memories he has from that period and that the Ogier were prominent in that period as fighters for the Light.

GonzoTheGreat
12-05-2013, 04:05 AM
It could also be a result of deliberate *finn editing.

Or, alternatively: people who have seen Ogier fight don't visit the *finn. Cases in point:
Loial fought in the Stone of Tear, when the Trollocs invaded that. Mat also fought there, and both fought very well according to what we know, but they never saw each other fight, and while Mat probably had to tell Loial about all he did, I am not sure Loial told Mat anything of his actions.
Perrin saw Loial fight in the Two Rivers campaign, but Perrin never visited the *finns.
Thom visited the *finns (together with Mat and Noal), but he didn't see Ogier fight because he spend the entire Last Battle in a remote outpost, butchering AS.

Mat eventually did see Ogier fight, but he is probably an exception to this rule, rather than someone who shows that the rule does not hold. And, of course, now he won't visit the *finn anymore anyway.

Zombie Sammael
12-05-2013, 05:57 AM
It could also be a result of deliberate *finn editing.

Or, alternatively: people who have seen Ogier fight don't visit the *finn. Cases in point:
Loial fought in the Stone of Tear, when the Trollocs invaded that. Mat also fought there, and both fought very well according to what we know, but they never saw each other fight, and while Mat probably had to tell Loial about all he did, I am not sure Loial told Mat anything of his actions.
Perrin saw Loial fight in the Two Rivers campaign, but Perrin never visited the *finns.
Thom visited the *finns (together with Mat and Noal), but he didn't see Ogier fight because he spend the entire Last Battle in a remote outpost, butchering AS.

Mat eventually did see Ogier fight, but he is probably an exception to this rule, rather than someone who shows that the rule does not hold. And, of course, now he won't visit the *finn anymore anyway.

Best theory this year, for sure.

finnssss
12-29-2013, 12:28 AM
He has memories from just before the Trolloc Wars (he's dancing in a ball and there is mention of increasing raids along the Blight) to the end of Hawkwing's rise (his last memory is Aldeshar and the Golden Lions losing to Hawkwing and him dying I believe. (which was the last nation to fall to him)

Now, we know that Ogier fought in the Trolloc Wars and even Loial mentions it in tEotW when he mentions how sorry they were that they couldn't come to Manetheren's aid in time...so there is no reason he shouldn't have memory of them fighting considering how many battle memories he has from that period.

Clearly another oversight by the new author...and his editors.

Relevant quotes:



This one is better and it shows I was off by about 500 years (earlier than I recalled)

Yeah, I sat down one day and really placed it out. All total it's around 1800 years worth of memories.
400-600 before the Trolloc Wars
300+ for the Trolloc Wars
almost 1000 until Hawkwing finishes his conquest.

Rand al'Fain
12-29-2013, 03:06 AM
Yeah, I sat down one day and really placed it out. All total it's around 1800 years worth of memories.
400-600 before the Trolloc Wars
300+ for the Trolloc Wars
almost 1000 until Hawkwing finishes his conquest.

Gotta remember though, Mat basically has only memories of past battles (with a few exceptions here and there), not the full lives of each memory's owner.

GonzoTheGreat
12-29-2013, 03:48 AM
Gotta remember though, Mat basically has only memories of past battles (with a few exceptions here and there), not the full lives of each memory's owner.
I wonder what kind of weird prophecies the *finn had to decide which specific memories to give to Mat. Apart from battle field skills, he got some dancing, a couple of songs (Jak of the Shadows, Don't Trust AS Or Queens Or Anyone, some others that I can't remember now), occasionally active writing skills, some glimpses of Sea Folk life (probably for the HBO version adaptation), and that's it. Either from his ancestors or from Shadar Logoth (or both) he also got fluency in the Old Tongue, but I'm not sure the *finn had anything to do with that*.

* He had it when he went through the Tear doorway, which was before he was changed in any way by the *finn.

finnssss
12-29-2013, 04:20 AM
Gotta remember though, Mat basically has only memories of past battles (with a few exceptions here and there), not the full lives of each memory's owner.

There was more, a lot more. The amount of songs he recognizes as other past songs, dancing with and loving certain women. He remembers meeting Comadrin as well as actually reading his book many times and also meeting Hawkwing, not just fighting against him.
He remembers how they used to tile their roofs in Shiota. The list of non-battle memories is quite extensive.

To say "only" battles is too restricting and truly inaccurate, "mostly" battles seems much more accurate.
Not full lives I agree but not just their battle memories either.

Also, not all of his memories were Finn given. The memory he re-lives upon waking from his healing at the WT was clearly, at least IMO, that of Aemon himself and his fluency in the old tongue hinted at early in book 1 and confirmed in Tear when he went through the Doorway.