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Hugh the Hand
12-09-2013, 03:11 PM
I was bored and looking at info on the Stone.

Many of the artists renditions are odd, but to each their own.

On a more important matter. Was the Stone a pre-breaking structure? Or was it built after or during the Breaking? If so, why? just to house Callandor? That seems odd, as it was protected by some very serious traps and wards.

Was it simply built so that the Dragon Reborn could take it? Again, that seems odd and a bit of overkill.

Was it built for some actual military purpose? It seems a bit out of the way for such a thing. I mean you could use it as a fall back position, but if the Shadow, post breaking, got that far south, then it would be basically game over.

Now if it was built prior to the Breaking, perhaps it was located in a more strategic location. But I do not recall reading it was built during the 2nd Age.

Thoughts?

Hugh the Hand
12-09-2013, 03:12 PM
It appears in the BWB it was built after the breaking, which agains begs the question of why other than to fulfill some Prophicy

Weird Harold
12-09-2013, 06:19 PM
It appears in the BWB it was built after the breaking, which agains begs the question of why other than to fulfill some Prophicy

According to Thom, built at the end of the Breaking by AS:

"The Karaethon Cycle," Thom said curtly.

Rand blinked. The Prophecies of the Dragon. "Nobody tells the ... those stories in the Two Rivers. Not in Emond's Field, anyway. The Wisdom would skin them alive, if they did."

"I suppose she would, at that," Thom said dryly. He glanced at Moiraine up ahead with Lan, saw she could not overhear, and went on. "Tear is the greatest port on the Sea of Storms, and the Stone of Tear is the fortress that guards it. The Stone is said to be the first fortress built after the Breaking of the World, and in all this time it has never fallen, though more than one army has tried. One of the Prophecies says that the Stone of Tear will never fall until the People of the Dragon come to the Stone. Another says the Stone will never fall till the Sword That Cannot Be Touched is wielded by the Dragon's hand." Thom grimaced. "The fall of the Stone will be one of the major proofs that the Dragon has been reborn. May the Stone stand till I am dust."

It isn't directly indicative of when the Stone was built, Callandor was placed there after tEotW was built and the Aeil left Paaren Dissan:

He shivered, wondering if men would ever stand in a meeting such as this again. When he saw what was on the table, the shiver became a shudder. A crystal sword – perhaps an object of the Power, perhaps only an ornament; he had no way of telling – held down the Dragon banner of Lews Therin Kinslayer, spread out like a tablecloth and spilling onto the floor. His heart clenched. What was that doing here? Why had it not been destroyed, and memory of the cursed man as well?

"What good is your Foretelling," Oselle was almost shouting, "if you cannot tell us when?" Her long black hair swayed as she shook with anger. "The world rests on this! The future! The Wheel itself!"

Dark eyed Deindre faced her with a more usual calm. "I am not the Creator. I can only tell you what I Foretell."

"Peace, sisters." Solinda was the calmest of them all, her old-fashioned streith gown only a pale blue mist. The sun-red hair falling to her waist was nearly the color of his own. His greatfather had served her as a young man, but she looked younger than he; she was Aes Sedai. "The time for contention among ourselves is past. Jaric and Haindar will both be here by tomorrow."

"Which means we cannot afford mistakes, Solinda."

"We must know..."

"Is there any chance of... ?"

Jonai stopped listening. They would see him when they were ready. He was not the only one in the room besides the Aes Sedai. Someshta sat against the wall near the door, ...

...

Her hand tightened painfully in his hair. "The citizens have already fled Paaren Disen, Jonai. Besides, the Da'shain yet have a part yet to play, if Deindre could only see far enough to say what. In any case, I mean to save something here, and that something is you."

...

He bowed where he knelt, but she was already being drawn back into the argument.

"Can we trust Kodam and his fellows, Solinda?"

"We must, Oselle. They are young and inexperienced, but barely touched by the taint, and... And we have no choice."

"Then we will do what we must. The sword must wait. Someshta, we have a task for the last of the Nym, if you will do it. We have asked too much of you; now we must ask more."

Jonai bowed his way out formally as the Nym rose, his head brushing the ceiling. Already immersed in their plans, they were not looking at him, but he did them this last honor anyway. He did not think he would ever see them again.

The combined implication is that the Stone of Tear was built by the same Aes Sedai who created tEotW sometime shortly after the fall of Paaren Dissan, in the middle to end of the Breaking.

GonzoTheGreat
12-10-2013, 04:41 AM
Actually, "in the beginning to middle of the Breaking" both makes more sense, and fits the data better.
It makes more sense, because the closer you are to the end of the Breaking, the fewer large groups of cooperating people there are, and making something like the Stone requires a substantial work force.
It also fits the data better, as there were some viewpoints from Rand's ancestors still during the Breaking but long after the one in which we saw Callandor.

Hugh the Hand
12-10-2013, 08:17 AM
Ok, so we have it built towards the end of the Breaking, so it could have moved?

But if it was placed in that spot, we must assume it was to protect a sa'angreal that no one could touch and to fullfil a prophecy?

Its location has no strategic importance as to the war with the Shadow. Now if it was placed in the Boarderlands, we might see its signifigance.

It was beseiged 100s of times, but never taken, which is impressive. And it served as the seat of power for Tear, and the preceeding nations in the area. But it seems like a lot of effort in a difficult time for a fort far removed from the main battle.

So am I missing something?

GonzoTheGreat
12-10-2013, 09:03 AM
You are probably missing what would have happened if, say, Guaire Amalasan had taken the Stone of Tear and figured out how to get Callandor free. That could have become rather messy, especially if he then went mad while holding the thing. Rand would have had a lot more trouble if he'd had to dig the StinaS out of a Dragonmount type volcano. Not to mention what other mischief a Mad Dragon could have gotten himself into. If Amalasan had believed himself to be the real Dragon, and gone into the Pit of Doom with it, then what?

Davian93
12-10-2013, 09:07 AM
Much like the Eye, it was clearly built when/where it was due to Foretellings (which seem far more prevalent back then which makes a bit more sense given that the Pattern was setting up the events for the next confrontation between light and shadow). If anything, it makes more sense that it wasnt near the Blight given the strategic importance of what it held.

Weird Harold
12-10-2013, 10:23 AM
Ok, so we have it built towards the end of the Breaking, so it could have moved?

But if it was placed in that spot, we must assume it was to protect a sa'angreal that no one could touch and to fullfil a prophecy?

Its location has no strategic importance as to the war with the Shadow. Now if it was placed in the Boarderlands, we might see its signifigance.

It was beseiged 100s of times, but never taken, which is impressive. And it served as the seat of power for Tear, and the preceeding nations in the area. But it seems like a lot of effort in a difficult time for a fort far removed from the main battle.

So am I missing something?
Gonzo has a point about early-to-middle being a better timing. It is unlikely that the Stone moved once built, since it was built according to Prophecy. It was probably built on a harbor at a river's mouth, and then the river delta silted in beyond it over the Third Age.

Ishara
12-12-2013, 07:43 AM
Here's a description (bolding mine, obvs):

TITLE: Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 48 - Following the Craft

She had heard of it in stories, heard that it was the greatest fortress in the world and the oldest, the first built after the Breaking of the World, yet nothing had prepared her for this sight. At first she thought it was a huge, gray stone hill or a small, barren mountain covering hundreds of hides, its length stretching from the Erinin west through the wall and into the city. Even after she saw the huge banner flapping from its greatest height - three white crescent moons slanting across a field half red, half gold; a banner waving at least three hundred paces above the river, yet large enough to be clearly seen at that height - even after she made out battlements and towers, it was difficult to believe the Stone of Tear had been built rather than carved out of a mountain already there.


And some random facts:

TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 16 - Leavetakings
The Stone had a number of rarely used Ogier guest rooms; the Stone of Tear predated even the age of great Ogier stoneworks, but it was a point of prestige to use Ogier stonemasons, at least from time to time.



TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: The Stone of Tear
The High Lords rule from the Stone of Tear, a massive fortress that dominates the city of Tear like a small mountain. The Stone is believed to be the oldest stronghold of mankind. It was built sometime during or shortly after the Breaking of the World, and was made using the One Power. Flows of Earth, Air and Fire were used to draw stone from every corner of the world and fuse it into a single massive structure without seam or joint or mortar.

So, we know it wasn't moved, and we know it was built towards the end of the Breaking. By Aes Sedia, some of whom were working to protect the future according to Prophecy. Seems a bit of kiling a few birds with one stone. We know callandor was iportant, but the prophecies to do with Callandor and taking the Stone were *after* the Breaking as far as we know. Maybe someone with more patience can parse that piece. So, it seems that perhaps the Stone was built to protect Callandor and the people in the area at the same time. Why not, given the turmoil?

Weird Harold
12-12-2013, 09:51 AM
We know callandor was iportant, but the prophecies to do with Callandor and taking the Stone were *after* the Breaking as far as we know.

We know Callandor was involved in the same Foretellings that drove the creation of tEotW and that was, to use Gonzo's timing, "early to middle Breaking" -- before the final destruction of Paaren Dissan and the Hall Of Servants, therein.

That the KC Prophecies were collected after the Breaking doesn't preclude those Prophecies being made during the Breaking or even before the Breaking.

GonzoTheGreat
12-12-2013, 10:05 AM
We even hear about some of those prophecies, though of course we do not hear which specific foretelling they already had.

Weird Harold
12-12-2013, 02:34 PM
We even hear about some of those prophecies, though of course we do not hear which specific foretelling they already had.
I don't recall any reference to specific Foretellings that can positively be linked to the KC; or specific KC citations about the creation of the Stone or EotW.

That's frustrating because we have to infer the exact content of the few Foretellings we know of and only see about 1% of the KC quoted verbatim, so we don't know anything.

GonzoTheGreat
12-13-2013, 03:44 AM
"I suppose she would, at that," Thom said dryly. He glanced at Moiraine up ahead with Lan, saw she could not overhear, and went on. "Tear is the greatest port on the Sea of Storms, and the Stone of Tear is the fortress that guards it. The Stone is said to be the first fortress built after the Breaking of the World, and in all this time it has never fallen, though more than one army has tried. One of the Prophecies says that the Stone of Tear will never fall until the People of the Dragon come to the Stone. Another says the Stone will never fall till the Sword That Cannot Be Touched is wielded by the Dragon's hand." Thom grimaced. "The fall of the Stone will be one of the major proofs that the Dragon has been reborn. May the Stone stand till I am dust."
Loial sat up straight, bumping his head on the roof. He did not seem to notice. "The Prophecies of the Dragon say the Stone of Tear will never fall till Callandor is wielded by the Dragon's hand. The fall of the Stone of Tear will be one of the greatest signs of the Dragon's Rebirth. If Rand holds Callandor, the whole world must acknowledge him as the Dragon."
"So we are 'the People of the Dragon,' now." Perrin laughed mirthlessly." 'The Stone of Tear will never fall till the People of the Dragon come.' Have you given us a new name, Moiraine?"
These seem to be the best. Or at least, they're from before Rand showed what those specific prophecies actually meaned, and I didn't bother searching the later books, reasoning that they probably would not hold anything more explicit.

Ishara
12-13-2013, 08:08 AM
You're ceratinly right that there was a Foretelling about Callandor before the end of the Breaking (is it semantics to suggest that the endof the War, and the end of the Breaking are two different events?), but we don't know what the Foretelling said. It could just have been that Callandor was important and needed to be protected. Not anything to do with the Dragon Reborn, maybe.

Speaking of which, the concept of the Dragon Reborn - do we know when that first came about? I'm tempted to say it would NOT have been anytime immediately following the Last Strike. Couldn't that have been something that came about well after the end of civilization as they knew it? There was a reason it was tabboo to speak of, right?

SauceyBlueConfetti
12-13-2013, 10:05 AM
Well, we know Callandor was lying on a table with the Dragon Banner when the Aes Sedai were discussing sealing the Bore, as that was part of Rand's Rhuidean flashback, so this could help tie together some thoughts...


Interview: Apr 20th, 2004

TOR Questions of the Week Part I (Verbatim)

Week 1 Question

Was the Horn of Valere known and used in the Age of Legends? Or did it only appear in the Third Age?

Robert Jordan


The Horn of Valere was known in the Age of Legends, though it was an artifact of an earlier age, but it was never used in the Age of Legends. In part, this was because there wasn't any need in an Age that knew universal peace, but also it was because what it could do was considered a sort of myth by most people in that Age. No one who is serious spends time trying to test out whether a myth might be real. (Seen anybody sacrificing a white bull to Jupiter lately?) And once the Dark One touched the world, before the War of the Shadow actually began, the Horn was among the items lost, and thought destroyed, in the first rush of mob violence, terrorism etc. So it wasn't available for use then even had someone wanted to try. It was later recovered and sealed up with the Dragon Banner because along with the Foretellings that made up the Prophecies of the Dragon was one saying that it must be.

In any case, the story of the Horn was carried on through the Age of Legends in the same way that myths are today, and magnified thereafter though the twisting that occurs in the telling and retelling of a story. And believe me, stories about the Dragon Reborn and the Prophecies and everything concerned with them were rife during the Breaking. When everything is going to hell around them, people cling to anything and everything that might offer hope. That is how the Breaking could end with tales of the Dragon Reborn and the Prophecies already on many peoples' lips.

Weird Harold
12-13-2013, 11:57 AM
(is it semantics to suggest that the endof the War, and the end of the Breaking are two different events?), but we don't know what the Foretelling said.

No. The End of the War of Power came long before the end of the Breaking. The War ended, for all practical purposes, with the Strike On Shayol Ghul and the Breaking Began. There was some overlap because of the mopping up of the Shadow's organized forces, but not enough the quibble about.

It could just have been that Callandor was important and needed to be protected. Not anything to do with the Dragon Reborn, maybe.

The Foretelling that directed the AS to put Callandor in the Stone led them to ward Callandor with Wards specific to the Dragon Reborn. That strongly suggests that they knew whom the wards were keyed to.

GonzoTheGreat
12-13-2013, 12:23 PM
And, of course, Callandor was warded by both male and female AS. There were no male AS after the Breaking (the end of the Breaking is defined as the moment the last male AS died), so Callandor must have been placed where it was during the Breaking. It is possible that the Stone was build around that later, but it seems more likely that they first build the Stone and then installed the Sword.

SauceyBlueConfetti
12-13-2013, 01:34 PM
(the end of the Breaking is defined as the moment the last male AS died), so Callandor must have been placed where it was during the Breaking. It is possible that the Stone was build around that later, but it seems more likely that they first build the Stone and then installed the Sword.

The time period of the Breaking is roughly 100 years per this:


Interview: Oct 25th, 1994

LOC Signing Report - Tony Zbaraschuk (Paraphrased)

Question


What about Mazrim Taim? Isn't his withstanding of the madness for fifteen years something exceptional? [Short segue from there to Taim=Demandred?]

Robert Jordan :


The duration varies from man to man; the circumstances are different, and the men themselves. Nobody really knows how long the process takes (or has to take), since once you start channeling the Aes Sedai usually find you pretty quickly, and gentling stops the progression of the madness and the taint (though it does not cure what's already happened). Channeling is addictive; once you've done it, you can't stop. The Breaking took about a hundred years before all the men finally died, though some of them did shelter in the stedding for a while. Nobody knows how long the process takes, except that there is variation. It's all in my notes.

Question

But what about Taim? Isn't fifteen years something really exceptional? [Subtext: Is he Demandred???]

Robert Jordan

Read and Find Out.

SauceyBlueConfetti
12-13-2013, 01:42 PM
And, duh. I never put this in...(golly gosh I love the database)

Interview: Jul, 2009

BarnesandNoble.com Book Club Q&A with Brandon Sanderson

Nikleas


WOT question: Rereading the series right now to get ready for The Gathering Storm, currently on book 4. Has RJ included details in his notes about who made Callandor and who placed it in the Stone of Tear (and how)?

Brandon Sanderson


There were notes on Callandor, and the sword will play a part in the final three books. More, I cannot say. However, I'll make a note to suggest that Harriet consider this question when creating the Encyclopedia, so anything that doesn't end up in the last books is revealed there.

Ishara
12-13-2013, 07:20 PM
Well, we know Callandor was lying on a table with the Dragon Banner when the Aes Sedai were discussing sealing the Bore, as that was part of Rand's Rhuidean flashback, so this could help tie together some thoughts...

Good quotes, Saucey. Very helpful, and I liked the feedback from Gonzo and WH as well.

I'll concede that the Callandor Foretelling was likely more detailed than not, then.

But there was seemingly a big gap of time between that moment in time and the creation of the Stone, so who knows where it was in between, and who knew what.

Further, it seems that we know that the Stone must have been built before the end of the Breaking, since saidin was used to make the wards on Callandor. It's not as clear, however, whether men played a role in the creation of the Stone. Part of me says yes, since the primary use of Earth was required, but Air is principally stronger in women, and Fire is supposed to be fairly equally divided, so who knows. Also, I feel as if it had been a joint venture, someone, sometime would have said something about it. Moiraine made a point of mentioning it when it happened elsewhere, so why not with the Stone.

Very interesting!

Weird Harold
12-13-2013, 09:37 PM
But there was seemingly a big gap of time between that moment in time and the creation of the Stone, so who knows where it was in between, and who knew what.

Again:

He shivered, wondering if men would ever stand in a meeting such as this again. When he saw what was on the table, the shiver became a shudder. A crystal sword – perhaps an object of the Power, perhaps only an ornament; he had no way of telling – held down the Dragon banner of Lews Therin Kinslayer, spread out like a tablecloth and spilling onto the floor. His heart clenched. What was that doing here? Why had it not been destroyed, and memory of the cursed man as well?

...

"Can we trust Kodam and his fellows, Solinda?"

"We must, Oselle. They are young and inexperienced, but barely touched by the taint, and... And we have no choice."

"Then we will do what we must. The sword must wait. Someshta, we have a task for the last of the Nym, if you will do it. We have asked too much of you; now we must ask more."


Solinda, Oselle, and Deindre were apparently responsible for both tEotW and placing Callandor n the Stone. It is flatly stated that tEotW came first -- because the Well at tEotW was filled with Saidin and the male Aes Seedai were likely to go mad before completing the task if they waited. I think I remember something about "100 men died making tEotW."

Placing the sword in the Stone and warding it had to have been done relatively soon after creation of the Eye, using any survivors of that task.


Further, it seems that we know that the Stone must have been built before the end of the Breaking, since saidin was used to make the wards on Callandor. ... I feel as if it had been a joint venture, someone, sometime would have said something about it. Moiraine made a point of mentioning it when it happened elsewhere, so why not with the Stone.

It is possible that the male AS were held in reserve during construction because of the scale of losses incurred creating the Eye. It is also possible that "Built by Aes Sedai" was passed down from someone who retained the mindset of "Aes Sedai" being gender neutral -- eg that the presence of both male and female AS wasn't considered unusual or worth mentioning.

Given the scale of the Stone, I would expect that construction was a project for more than three female AS and a handful of inexperienced male AS. On that basis, I'd say sufficient strength in Earth would have been recruited whether it was a mixed gender workforce or not.

GonzoTheGreat
12-14-2013, 03:00 AM
Solinda, Oselle, and Deindre were apparently responsible for both tEotW and placing Callandor n the Stone. It is flatly stated that tEotW came first -- because the Well at tEotW was filled with Saidin and the male Aes Seedai were likely to go mad before completing the task if they waited. I think I remember something about "100 men died making tEotW."

What I could find suggests something different:
"Many in Tar Valon have attempted to find a way to use this Power, but it is as untouchable for any woman as the moon is for a cat. Only a man could channel it, but the last male Aes Sedai is nearly three thousand years gone. Yet the need they saw was a desperate one. They worked through the taint of the Dark One on saidin to make it, and make it pure, knowing that doing so would kill them all. Male Aes Sedai and female together. The Green Man spoke true. The greatest wonders of the Age of Legends were done in that way, saidin and saidar together. All the women in Tar Valon, all the Aes Sedai in all the courts and cities, even with those in the lands beyond the Waste, even counting those who may still live beyond the Aryth Ocean, could not fill a spoon with the Power, lacking men to work with them."
This says that both the men and the women who made the Eye died. So others must have made the Stone. It is likely that part of the group we saw worked on the Eye (together with more that we didn't see), and another part of them went to construct the Stone afterwards.

Placing the sword in the Stone and warding it had to have been done relatively soon after creation of the Eye, using any survivors of that task.
There were no such survivors.

Given the scale of the Stone, I would expect that construction was a project for more than three female AS and a handful of inexperienced male AS. On that basis, I'd say sufficient strength in Earth would have been recruited whether it was a mixed gender workforce or not.
Makes sense. Of course, given what we know of AS, making sense is not something that is particularly relevant to describing what they do. This pattern may or may not have held true during the Breaking.

Weird Harold
12-14-2013, 12:15 PM
This says that both the men and the women who made the Eye died. So others must have made the Stone. It is likely that part of the group we saw worked on the Eye (together with more that we didn't see), and another part of them went to construct the Stone afterwards.


There were no such survivors.

There may not have been survivors of those who filled the Well with Saidin, but there was more to making tEotW than just filling the Well.