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Isabel
01-05-2014, 08:19 AM
Hey all,

This year it might be possible to nominate the whole wheel of time series for a hugo award.

I think it will be awesome and a great tribute to Robert Jordan to nominate the whole wheel of time series.Plus i think it would be a deserved Hugo. Jordan influenced a lot of writers and helped making the big series possible! Plus we are all big wot fans and love to discuss the series.
It would be a shame if the last chance for a hugo wouldn't be taken.

Jennifer Liang (from Dragonmount and the organiser of Jordan Con) wrote an article about nominating wot for a hugo.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2z90ZOKvE3CUFo4X1hLV1NkQkk/edit?pli=1

Nominations are open to members of the current year’s Worldcon, the members of the past year’s Worldcon, and the members of the following year’s Worldcon. The final ballot is open only to members of the current year’s Worldcon.

I believe you have to be a member and paid in January to be able to nominate.

I hope to visit world con in London and hope to meet other TL'ers there :) We can do a new TL meet up in London!

The website of world con is:
http://www.loncon3.org/index.php

So who is coming to world con? Or can nominate because you visited last world con or the world con in 2015? :)

Regards, Isabel:)

Isabel
01-07-2014, 11:59 AM
There is also an interesting article on Tor.com :)
http://www.tor.com/blogs/2014/01/the-wheel-of-time-hugo-award-robert-jordan

So who is coming to world con? or can nominate because of last year or next years world con?

I know I can nominate, Fordan is going to world con :)
Perhaps some others?

If you know of other people who are going to world con and if they like wot, please make them aware of this possibility :)

Ishara
01-08-2014, 10:50 AM
Here's Leigh's article from Tor, that Isa linked above:

Hail, people of Tor.com! Leigh Butler here, of The Wheel of Time Reread. Today, in addition to a Reread, I bring you some interestingly weird news (at least I think so), and an even more interesting (I hope) request.

It will BLOW YOUR MIND, y’all. Or, well, it will at least severely ruffle your bangs. You will need a comb, I’m not kidding.

…And, yeah. Anyway, to find out what the heck I’m blathering about, click the jump!

So as you know, Bob, it is a new year, and that means two things: (a) screwing up every time you have to write the date on anything, and (b) awards season. For the SF/F community no less than any other, as today opens the nominations for the Hugo Awards.

Which is a thing I bet most of y’all have heard tell about at one point or another, but in case you are new, and/or have been living in an SF/F-deprived alternate universe for a while and only just gotten back, that link explains it pretty well. Basically, the Hugos are the Oscars of the SF/F community, and to be awarded one is… well, it’s the shiznit, not to put too fine a point on it.

As a Wheel of Time-adjacent person, this would obviously have been relevant to my interests in any case, as the final novel in the series, A Memory of Light, was published in 2013 and is therefore eligible to be nominated for Best Novel. HOWEVER, I was recently contacted by Jennifer Liang, Chair of JordanCon and WOT fan extraordinaire, with a proposal that was far more interesting, and so now I put it to you for your consideration.

Jennifer herself lays it out very cogently in her post on Dragonmount, which I encourage you to read, but for those with an allergy to clicking links, I will quote the heart of her proposal for you here:

In re-reading the WSFS Constitution recently, I saw this clause in the Hugo eligibility rules:

3.2.6: Works appearing in a series are eligible as individual works, but the series as a whole is not eligible. However, a work appearing in a number of parts shall be eligible for the year of the final part.

Simply put, because no portion of The Wheel of Time has ever been nominated for a Hugo, the entire series became eligible as a single work when it was completed.

This, as you might agree, is really interesting. The case that Jennifer is making is that since none of the Wheel of Time novels (with the arguable exception of The Eye of the World) can stand alone, but instead are installments of one huge overarching story that only stand when taken all together, therefore it is not only fair but appropriate to nominate the entire series as a unit for the Best Novel award, now that the story is complete.

Jennifer also goes on to point out that there is precedent for this interpretation of the rules, if not on this scale. In 2011, Connie Willis’s duology, Black Out and All Clear, were nominated for Best Novel together (and won); similarly, the entire first season of HBO’s Game of Thrones was nominated in the “Best Dramatic Presentation – Long Form” category in 2012 (and also won).

The administrators of the Hugos have declined to rule on this interpretation unless and until it becomes an issue, and therefore that’s precisely what Jennifer (and many other WOT fans) propose to make it, by encouraging those of us who feel that the contribution made by the Wheel of Time series to the genre of epic fantasy ought to be recognized by the community at large to put our money where our mouth is, so to speak, and nominate the series, as opposed to just the last novel in it, for the Hugo.

My personal feeling on the technicalities of it, aside from any opinion on the Wheel of Time itself, is that the argument is legit. In a genre positively rife with serialization and sweeping, writ-large stories which often cannot be confined to one unit of storytelling (i.e. one novel) for purely practical reasons, it makes sense to me that where that situation applies, the community should be allowed to reward a work as a whole, instead of just individual chunks of it.

As regards the Wheel of Time series specifically, I am (obviously) biased on its behalf, for any number of reasons, but I would contend that even those who do not care for the series themselves must acknowledge the huge impact and influence the Wheel of Time series has had upon the genre in general, and I feel that it is only appropriate that that impact be recognized and honored on the occasion of its completion.

And I feel, even more importantly, that the contribution of its main author should also be recognized and honored. With no disrespect to Brandon Sanderson, of course, who has already been (quite rightly) awarded by the Hugos in his own right, but I do feel it is a tragic oversight that Robert Jordan has not yet received similar recognition for his work, which has influenced so many of the greatest SF writers of our day. And this proposal, I feel, is the best way to address that oversight.

Therefore, O my Peeps, I exhort you: if you can and will, please consider nominating the Wheel of Time series as a whole for the Hugo Award for Best Novel, and spread the word so that others might do the same.

It should be made clear, by the way, that this is my personal opinion and endorsement, which the lovely folks at Tor.com have graciously allowed me to express on their site but otherwise maintain strict neutrality on the subject, as is right and proper. The Hugos have always been about the community at large deciding what to honor, and it is in that capacity, as a fan, that I am endorsing this notion. I hope that you will agree.

So go! Join! Nominate! Vote! Participate! And maybe help make Hugo history, eh? I can think of worse things to do with your time!

Marie Curie 7
01-09-2014, 12:37 PM
FYI, just to make it clear: you do NOT have to attend a WorldCon in order to be a voting member for the Hugos. Instead of becoming an attending member, you can become a supporting member. What that means is that you're not able to actually attend WorldCon, but you can nominate for the Hugos (if you join before January 31), and you will be able to vote on the Hugo Awards once the ballot is finalized (the deadline for voting is usually in the summer, perhaps the end of July or thereabouts).

I've been a supporting member of WorldCon for about three years or so. It's a great thing, because as part of the Hugo voting process, you are able to get all the nominated materials for the price of your supporting membership. That means that for about $40, you get all the short stories, novellettes, novellas, and novels that are nominated in electronic form. In addition, you get all the other Hugo-nominated stuff: artwork, graphic stories, etc. You also get all the materials nominated for the Campbell Award, which is for best new author. It's a great way to get and read things that you might not otherwise be exposed to, to try new things.

Anyway, here's the link to join: http://www.loncon3.org/memberships/. Again, if you're interested in the Hugos but can't go to London to attend WorldCon, what you want is the supporting membership for $40.

SauceyBlueConfetti
01-10-2014, 11:04 AM
Thanks Marie! That is great information!

Isabel
01-17-2014, 12:03 PM
http://www.theguardian.com/books/booksblog/2014/jan/17/wheel-of-time-hugo-award-tolkien-robert-jordan

This is really a horrible article and makes me mad:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Sarevok
01-17-2014, 01:09 PM
This is really a horrible article and makes me mad:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Makes me more midly annoyed (I don't get angry easily about stuff like this), but I see your point. I doubt this guy even read the (whole) series. He probably read the first 200 pages and thinks he knows it all... :mad:

Seeker
01-18-2014, 02:47 PM
Makes me more midly annoyed (I don't get angry easily about stuff like this), but I see your point. I doubt this guy even read the (whole) series. He probably read the first 200 pages and thinks he knows it all... :mad:

To be honest, I think the article has a point. I like WOT, don't get me wrong, but I've read the Punkadiddle reviews and his main points are that most WOT books could have been half as long and still told the same story....

I can't argue with that. A lot of the detail we got was superfluous and that's why I'm glad Brandon took a nuts and bolts approach. Even if it did feel thin in a lot of places.

And as I've pointed out before, a lot of fans are a little rabid about this series, to the point where they defend its failings. I don't think the entirety of WOT should get a Hugo. If I could go back in time, I'd gladly nominate Great Hunt or Dragon Reborn. Both of those were brilliant. But not the whole series

Isabel
01-18-2014, 02:55 PM
To be honest, I think the article has a point. I like WOT, don't get me wrong, but I've read the Punkadiddle reviews and his main points are that most WOT books could have been half as long and still told the same story....

I can't argue with that. A lot of the detail we got was superfluous and that's why I'm glad Brandon took a nuts and bolts approach. Even if it did feel thin in a lot of places.

And as I've pointed out before, a lot of fans are a little rabid about this series, to the point where they defend its failings. I don't think the entirety of WOT should get a Hugo. If I could go back in time, I'd gladly nominate Great Hunt or Dragon Reborn. Both of those were brilliant. But not the whole series

I am really surprised you saying that. Don't you think the whole series needs to get some recognition?
And ofcourse not everyone likes every book as much, but does that mean the series shouldn't get recognized?

Seeker
01-18-2014, 03:06 PM
I am really surprised you saying that. Don't you think the whole series needs to get some recognition?
And ofcourse not everyone likes every book as much, but does that mean the series shouldn't get recognized?

No I don't think the whole series should get recognition. For one, it's not a single work of fiction. No matter what the fandom thinks, the first four novels are all stand alone stories with sizable gaps between the end of one and the start of the next. For two, some installments are just bad. Winter's Heart, for example.

Isabel
01-18-2014, 03:18 PM
No I don't think the whole series should get recognition. For one, it's not a single work of fiction. No matter what the fandom thinks, the first four novels are all stand alone stories with sizable gaps between the end of one and the start of the next. For two, some installments are just bad. Winter's Heart, for example.

Stand alone novels? There is one storyline that started in book one. You can't see book 1, 2, 3 and 4 as seperate stories. It's all about Rand doing the things he needs to do to defeat the Dark One.
the first four novels cover more time than the other books, but that doesn't mean it isn't part of the story line.


And btw, Winter's heart is my favourite book.

Seeker
01-18-2014, 04:14 PM
Well, I won't argue personal taste with you but you can't deny that the first four novels are episodic. You can use an episodic format to tell a larger story. But in each of the first four novels, the characters are given a task near the beginning of the book and they complete that task by the end of the book. That's what episodic means. Frankly, that format works a lot better for epic fantasy than the soap opera approach RJ took in the later books.

yks 6nnetu hing
01-21-2014, 03:51 AM
oh, so Seeker, if I were a total newbie, and I picked up book 4, I could read it as a stand-alone? methinks not.

Terry Pratchett books are standalones. WoT is not. Perhaps the only book in the series that could possibly be perceived as a standalone is tEotW.

The Wheel of Time is one story; and as such should - in my opinion - be recognized as one story; as the sum of its parts.

I am aware that lots of people think tGH is the best, but I always found it a bit caroonish. And I know that lots of people loooooove tFH, particularly Dumai's Wells but I guess I've been spoiled by Bernard Cornwell's battle scenes so I didn't think it was that great, really. My own favourite is LoC but I'm aware that it contains too much political intrigue and not enough action for some tastes.

Davian93
01-21-2014, 09:45 AM
One could probably pick up the story with TGH and not really miss much of anything. Sure, parts of it might be a bit confusing but there's enough background exposition for you to not really need tEotW to read the story from there on and not really miss much.

Of course, this is because tEotW could have stood alone as a fantasy novel without any sequels if it absolutely had to...with very minor tweaking, its a start to finish novel. Just make the Dark One really get killed at the Eye and you're good to go on that respect.

But yes, I overall agree with yks and others that none of them are really standalone stories and you absolutely could not pick up with Book 4 and read it with any real idea of what is going on.

yks 6nnetu hing
01-21-2014, 10:12 AM
But yes, I overall agree with yks and others that none of them are really standalone stories and you absolutely could not pick up with Book 4 and read it with any real idea of what is going on.

In some cases that is deliberate: that you sort of arrive in the middle of the story and there's no real end-point where 90% of the major story lines are tied up. Which *is* more realistic; but less satisfactory. I prefer my stories with a beginning and an end.

Seeker
01-21-2014, 11:22 AM
oh, so Seeker, if I were a total newbie, and I picked up book 4, I could read it as a stand-alone? methinks not.

Terry Pratchett books are standalones. WoT is not. Perhaps the only book in the series that could possibly be perceived as a standalone is tEotW.

The Wheel of Time is one story; and as such should - in my opinion - be recognized as one story; as the sum of its parts.

To answer your question, you'd probably be confused at first if you started with Shadow Rising although I'm sure you'd pick it up quickly enough. However, that's not the criterion for what it means to be episodic. Star Wars is episodic. If you start with Return of the Jedi, you'll have lots of questions. Who's this Han guy? Why is he frozen? Who or what is Jabba? The robots keep mentioning a master Luke. What's his deal?

Return of the Jedi is a sequel; as such, it assumes knowledge of prior installments but it is still its own work of fiction. It has story points, themes and character arcs that are initiated and resolved without bleeding over into other films in the series.

The same is true of the first four WOT books.

yks 6nnetu hing
01-21-2014, 01:53 PM
To answer your question, you'd probably be confused at first if you started with Shadow Rising although I'm sure you'd pick it up quickly enough. However, that's not the criterion for what it means to be episodic. Star Wars is episodic. If you start with Return of the Jedi, you'll have lots of questions. Who's this Han guy? Why is he frozen? Who or what is Jabba? The robots keep mentioning a master Luke. What's his deal?

Return of the Jedi is a sequel; as such, it assumes knowledge of prior installments but it is still its own work of fiction. It has story points, themes and character arcs that are initiated and resolved without bleeding over into other films in the series.

The same is true of the first four WOT books.

I understand your point. I just think that what you describe is horrible storytelling and most definitely not worth any awards. Kind of like looking at the left hand of the Mona Lisa and having to decide if the whole picture is any good or not. Sure, there's good technique there, but not much soul or content. Or having to look at the Mona Lisa without her left hand, for that matter. Sure, the smile is intriguing, the details are intricate yet understated, her eyes seem to follow you everywhere, but who the flibberdygook cut her hand out?

Seeker
01-21-2014, 04:58 PM
I understand your point. I just think that what you describe is horrible storytelling and most definitely not worth any awards. Kind of like looking at the left hand of the Mona Lisa and having to decide if the whole picture is any good or not. Sure, there's good technique there, but not much soul or content. Or having to look at the Mona Lisa without her left hand, for that matter. Sure, the smile is intriguing, the details are intricate yet understated, her eyes seem to follow you everywhere, but who the flibberdygook cut her hand out?

I'm not saying that I'd recommend reading Shadow Rising first, or even Great Hunt. I'm saying that if you look at the way the plots of those books are structured, they are individual episodes of a larger story. Yes, of a larger story, but still individual.

The Hugos are designed to measure individual works of fiction, not one huge series that consists of many individual works. Part of the reason that it's structured this way is that more goes into rating a work of science fiction than just how much we like it - though taste should be a factor.

Does it make you think?

Does it present an interesting vision of how the future could be/how the past could have been?

Does it explore the human condition in any way?

Does it explore a philosophical concept?

And the list goes on. (Would everyone please take note of that before jumping on me for saying my list of criteria is too short).

Now, Great Hunt definitely does all of these things but Wheel of Time overall doesn't. In part because different books explore different concepts in different ways. Allowing the entire series to compete is cheating.

It would be like pitting a single episode of Battlestar Galactica against every single episode of Star Trek the Next Generation. TNG is going to win based on nothing more than the sheer breadth of subject matter. Because TNG has got several episodes on what it means to be a person ("The Measure of a Man," "The Offspring.") Several episodes on just how alien aliens can be. ("Darmok," "The Loss.") Several episodes on personal choice ("Tapestry," "All Good Things,") and if you're going to stack that up against just one episode of some other series - BSG's "Bastille Day" explores the issue of minority rights and how criminals should be treated - then TNG will win only because it has SO MUCH MORE to choose from. It's not a fair competition.

Now, I would gladly nominate one of the early WOT books but a story has to be nominated the year after it's published.

Then there's the fact that not all books in the Wheel of Time series are actually worthy of a Hugo. It's so easy to pick on Crossroads, so I'll just name Path of Daggers off the top of my head. Or even Towers of Midnight. Yes, I liked Towers of Midnight - I thought it was a fun fantasy adventure and a decent read - but it's job was to wrap up a huge mess of plot threads and as such, it didn't do a lot of delving into deeper concepts.

I like Towers of Midnight, I just don't think it's worthy of a Hugo. Gathering Storm might have been (Rand's existential crisis) but it's too late for that.

As for Path... Well, I'm going to be honest with you, I don't think that book delved into any deeper concepts either. Great Hunt worked because it was all about Rand making choices and exploring the issue of "What does it mean to be a hero?" Sure, it's great to know I'm the chosen one but... now what? That's brilliant writing right there.

So, if you're going to nominate the series, you have to take the parts of it that really don't deserve a Hugo along with the parts that do. And again, I bring back my TNG analogy. Sure, we may say Star Trek the Next Generation deserves a Hugo because of brilliant episodes like Darmok or The Inner Light but what about horribly racist episodes like Code of Honour? Or the chauvinism of the Outrageous Okana?

yks 6nnetu hing
01-21-2014, 05:36 PM
I said I understand your point. I still think you're wrong. That's my personal subjective opinion and so far the rules of the contest agree: if no single volume of a series has been nominated, then the entirety of the series will count as a single work. Honestly, if it were up to me, I'd change the rules so that no series could be eligible until they're finished. You simply cannot evaluate the whole based on only partial information.

Also, please don't imply that I don't think, mkay? It rubs me the wrong way.

Also #2: the star trek analogies go right over my head, I have negative twelve interest in the franchise.

Seeker
01-21-2014, 06:13 PM
I said I understand your point. I still think you're wrong. That's my personal subjective opinion and so far the rules of the contest agree: if no single volume of a series has been nominated, then the entirety of the series will count as a single work. Honestly, if it were up to me, I'd change the rules so that no series could be eligible until they're finished. You simply cannot evaluate the whole based on only partial information.

I think I disagree with that but only to say that it's the kind of thing that should be decided on a case by case basis.

Also, please don't imply that I don't think, mkay? It rubs me the wrong way.

I didn't?....

Honestly, I don't know what you're talking about.

yks 6nnetu hing
01-22-2014, 02:58 AM
Does it make you think?

I generally think, whatever it is I'm reading. Or doing. Even in sleep, I'm often thinking.

Davian93
01-22-2014, 08:16 AM
Code of Honor was just such a terrible, terrible terrible episode. That's the one where Yar had to fight with the other girl on Planet Africa and it was massively racist against black people, right? The cast at the time thought it was terribly racist and felt uncomfortable doing it. I wonder how LeVar and Michael dealt with that on set...must have been fun.

Seeker
01-22-2014, 10:57 AM
I generally think, whatever it is I'm reading. Or doing. Even in sleep, I'm often thinking.

Seriously? You're insulted because I said the Hugo judges ask themselves if a work of science fiction makes you think? Where "you" is meant in the general case and not in reference to any specific person. How does the mere existence of that criterion imply that you, Doris Viol, don't think? I'm at a loss.

There must be some assumption in your thought process that I'm not aware of.

Seeker
01-22-2014, 11:06 AM
Code of Honor was just such a terrible, terrible terrible episode. That's the one where Yar had to fight with the other girl on Planet Africa and it was massively racist against black people, right? The cast at the time thought it was terribly racist and felt uncomfortable doing it. I wonder how LeVar and Michael dealt with that on set...must have been fun.

Yup. That's the one. The worst episode of TNG

GonzoTheGreat
01-22-2014, 12:00 PM
Seriously? You're insulted because I said the Hugo judges ask themselves if a work of science fiction makes you think? Where "you" is meant in the general case and not in reference to any specific person. How does the mere existence of that criterion imply that you, Doris Viol, don't think? I'm at a loss.

There must be some assumption in your thought process that I'm not aware of.
I think that the WOT series didn't make you think of what she thought of. Thus, you're right: WOT does not make you think. :p

Davian93
01-22-2014, 12:18 PM
Yup. That's the one. The worst episode of TNG

The one where Wesley steps on the grass/breaks something and is about to be executed is pretty atrocious too. Its amazing the show wasn't canceled after the first season considering how many unwatchable episodes there really are there.

The 2nd season isn't much better really.

Most of the Wesley focused episodes were terrible, the Troi episodes were pretty bad too for that matter.

Also, Sub Rosa is far worse than Code of Honor if for no other reason that it was much later in the show's run and they should have known better than to make that episode. It was a really bad romance novel turned into a TNG episode.

Other really bad episodes:

Masks (Data turns into an evil Aztec god along with the rest of the ship...so brutal)
Genesis (they all start devolving...just brutal)
The Naked Now (2nd ever episode...its only saved by the hilarous Data line "I am fully functional, programed in multiple techniques" right before he plows Tasha Yar
The Royale They're trapped in a crappy casino and Data has to win to get them free.


Also, its not TNG but the Voyager episode Threshold is by far the worst episode of Star Trek ever made and one of the worst episodes of television ever made. That's the one where Parris breaks the Warp 10 barrier and then he and Janeway turn into salamanders and have sex. Its the reason I stopped watching Voyager and gave up on the show period. Nothing ST will ever coming close to matching that level of suck.

SauceyBlueConfetti
01-22-2014, 01:22 PM
Also, its not TNG but the Voyager episode Threshold is by far the worst episode of Star Trek ever made and one of the worst episodes of television ever made. That's the one where Parris breaks the Warp 10 barrier and then he and Janeway turn into salamanders and have sex. Its the reason I stopped watching Voyager and gave up on the show period. Nothing ST will ever coming close to matching that level of suck.



This. Thank you, yes. OMG. OMG. OMG.



Regarding the Hugo nomination eligibility...I don't really care for their response which boils down to:
well go ahead and nominate it and then we will make a decision on whether you can.
That is just stupid and enrages the fanboys.

Seeker
01-22-2014, 01:28 PM
To avoid hijacking this thread, I'm going to reply to Dav and SBC in Non Wot.

yks 6nnetu hing
01-22-2014, 01:45 PM
Seriously? You're insulted because I said the Hugo judges ask themselves if a work of science fiction makes you think? Where "you" is meant in the general case and not in reference to any specific person. How does the mere existence of that criterion imply that you, Doris Viol, don't think? I'm at a loss.

There must be some assumption in your thought process that I'm not aware of.

Ok, to avoid getting off track here, i will pm you.

I will reiterate: there is no point in gnashing teeth at WoT being possibly nominated for a Hugo. It's entirely within the rules, and I happen to agree with the logic of the rules.

Seeker
01-22-2014, 02:07 PM
Ok, to avoid getting off track here, i will pm you.

I will reiterate: there is no point in gnashing teeth at WoT being possibly nominated for a Hugo. It's entirely within the rules, and I happen to agree with the logic of the rules.

Oh, just to be clear.

Go right ahead and nominate the WOT. My opinion is just that... an opinion. I'm discussing it simply because I find discussing science fiction enjoyable. It doesn't bother me.

I thought the article that made Sar and Isa mad was interesting because it actually raises points I've noticed over the years but that's all.

GonzoTheGreat
01-23-2014, 04:09 AM
Is WOT science fiction or is it fantasy?

Davian93
01-23-2014, 09:04 AM
Is WOT science fiction or is it fantasy?

I would argue that science fiction is merely a subset of the fantasy genre to begin with. However, I would classify WoT as fantasy despite it having many elements that could allow it to fit into the science fiction portion of fantasy writing (the fact that it could be considered the future...Merk & Mosk, Elsbet, and other references to our world, etc etc)

fdsaf3
01-23-2014, 01:39 PM
Ok, to avoid getting off track here, i will pm you.

I will reiterate: there is no point in gnashing teeth at WoT being possibly nominated for a Hugo. It's entirely within the rules, and I happen to agree with the logic of the rules.

Well that's the whole point, isn't it? Before you and Seeker got to this point, the original question was whether or not the series as whole meets the eligibility requirements of a Hugo award. For reference, here's the eligibility language from the Hugo FAQ section on their website:

Serialized Works

Works such as TV series, comics and sometimes even whole novels are sometimes published in multiple parts making up a complete story arc. The individual elements of such a story arc are always eligible for their year of publication. However, voters may want to nominate a complete story arc. In such cases it is the publication date of the final installment of the series that counts for eligibility purposes.

If an individual installment of a story arc achieves a nomination on its own then the complete story arc will probably be ruled ineligible if nominated. This is because the voters have clearly indicated that the installment stands on its own as a complete work and is not part of a longer work. (The same would apply if, for example, book 1 of a trilogy were to be nominated on its own.)

Now, I personally think there's something fishy about this very nebulous definition of installments and series. The way I personally understand this issue, I could see something like Lord of the Rings meeting the criteria of one story separated into individual books (of which there are 6, if I remember correctly). I don't think the Wheel of Time qualifies as one story told in installments. I'm really not up for a philosophical debate on the issue, so I'm going to offer my opinion while acknowledging that there are certainly others on the subject.

Now, even if the Wheel of Time series is agreed upon by voters (which is another wrinkle in this process if you ask me) to meet the criteria for eligibility, the question remains of whether the series as a whole should qualify for the award. I realize this is hardly the place to get an objective opinion on the merits and flaws of the series as a whole. The fact remains that, like it or not, disagree with it or not, the public at large is divided on how to answer this question. The Wheel of Time series has certainly sold a lot of copies, that much cannot be questioned. But there are other considerations for whether or not the series deserves the award.

I'm sure someone interested in doing so could write a dissertation on the artistic merits and/or shortcomings of any number of elements of the series. There are numerous examples, both positive and negative, of storytelling, character development, world building, etc. I remember the thread about the pros and cons of the series, and I remember the extremely strong feelings and opinions which people here have about these books. I'm not going to kick a hornet's nest by bringing any of that up. I'm simply illustrating that if the series as a whole is determined to be eligible, then it follows naturally that the entire series must be judged and found worthy of the award. Maybe you feel it does, and maybe not. I'll leave it to others to argue that point if they want.

I do have one more thought on the awards themselves, though. Something about it strikes me as arbitrary...and kind of fishy. Maybe I don't understand the nomination and voting process, but it seems like this is an award which is a glorified popularity contest. Put another way, this award, like many others I could name this time of year, strike me more as indicators of mass appeal than they do as of assurances of quality. But, I'm not one to buy into the awards hype, so I should probably just stop.

Seeker
01-23-2014, 01:51 PM
I would argue that science fiction is merely a subset of the fantasy genre to begin with. However, I would classify WoT as fantasy despite it having many elements that could allow it to fit into the science fiction portion of fantasy writing (the fact that it could be considered the future...Merk & Mosk, Elsbet, and other references to our world, etc etc)

I don't think all sci-fi is a subset of fantasy. I think the difference is more that a sci-fi world is one that isn't real right now but could potentially be real given our current understanding of science whereas a fantasy world is just pure imagination.

Star Trek is a good example of sci-fi. The ships zip around the galaxy via warp drive, which is something that NASA is working on right now. They're powered by anti-matter, which - if you could control the reaction - would generate enormous amounts of energy. Now, there are some bits of "magic" technology that just serve the plot. The universal translator, for instance; a device like that could never actually exist. But in theory, we might one day have space ships that fly around the galaxy by making warp fields.

Star Wars, on the other hand, is pure fantasy. Ships have hyperdrives that propel you through hyperspace. How does that work? It just does. Aliens can adapt to just about any environment. (We once saw Obi-wan breathing quite comfortably on a planet with brown sky). Lightsabers and don't forget the Force. None of these things are explained we just accept them as part of the story of an epic fantasy quest in space.

A big difference between sci-fi and fantasy is that the former usually makes an attempt to explain how the technology involved is based on some underlying (possibly fictional) scientific principle, while the latter says "Yeah, none of this is actually plausible and we're okay with that."

Then you get WOT, which is clearly on the fantasy side of the great divide but sometimes feels the need to explain its made-up physics. Like the One Power.

It reminds me of Brandon's discussions on hard vs soft magic.

http://brandonsanderson.com/sandersons-first-law/

GonzoTheGreat
01-24-2014, 04:34 AM
Now, I personally think there's something fishy about this very nebulous definition of installments and series. The way I personally understand this issue, I could see something like Lord of the Rings meeting the criteria of one story separated into individual books (of which there are 6, if I remember correctly). I don't think the Wheel of Time qualifies as one story told in installments. I'm really not up for a philosophical debate on the issue, so I'm going to offer my opinion while acknowledging that there are certainly others on the subject.
The reason why this rule was made is that it was necessary in the days of the pulp magazines. In those days, producing a book was not the standard way of writing SF&F. Instead, the authors wrote shorter bits, which they sold to the various magazines. If the readers liked them, more installments were accepted and eventually the whole story came out. Then, if a publisher thought it had real potential, maybe the whole was combined into a novel.
That isn't what Tolkien did; he was a Brit and hence eccentric. But it was how the Foundation series appeared: not as three books (later more were added), but as 8 (I think; Wikipedia agrees) separate parts in Astounding Magazine, appearing over a period of about eight years.

So there is quite a good historical reason for this "part or whole" rule.

A big difference between sci-fi and fantasy is that the former usually makes an attempt to explain how the technology involved is based on some underlying (possibly fictional) scientific principle, while the latter says "Yeah, none of this is actually plausible and we're okay with that."
That is sort of a good explanation. Now, if one applies that to the Discworld series, then that comes out on SF side of the equation, since Pratchett quite often mentions the underlying scientific principle (a very strong magic field) that helps explain all the 'weird' stuff. However, usually Discworld is classified as Fantasy, so what gives?

Then you get WOT, which is clearly on the fantasy side of the great divide but sometimes feels the need to explain its made-up physics. Like the One Power.
Things like souls and the DO are what put WOT in the Fantasy camp; the OP on its own would still be SF.

yks 6nnetu hing
01-24-2014, 07:53 AM
Things like souls and the DO are what put WOT in the Fantasy camp; the OP on its own would still be SF.

yes. RJ goes rather deep into the (meta)physics of the working of the OP, the T'A'R, the parallel and perpendicular worlds; even Traveling between worlds via the Portal Stones; He also clearly says that there was/will be an Age in which the OP was unknown entirely, thus making it *possible* that the Third Age may still be in the plausible future for us. Hence, WoT could be classified as Science Fiction much the same way as Anne McCaffrey's Pern stories start in a classical Fantasy world but as the world expands we learn that in fact it's a mix of Science Fiction and Fantasy.

Though, I never like the distinction of Science Fiction and Fantasy because it implies that there's some inherent conflict between the two; and all non-realism must fall in either the one or the other category. Speculative Fiction is much better, as that encompasses also the alternative history (and thereunder steampunk), horror, urban fantasy, postapocalyptic fiction etc.

Davian93
01-24-2014, 12:26 PM
Just because they throw out some technobabble to explain it away doesnt make ST and most Sci-fi any less Fantasy.

Isabel
01-25-2014, 04:01 AM
Just some extra information about nominating WOT :)
It's important you buy your membership before 31 january. And if you nominate for the Hugo's that you participate in it whole. Don't just nominate wot, but also nominate other books and other categories.


Here below an aricle from Jennifer Liang on dragonmount.http://www.dragonmount.com/index.php/News/events/hugo-nominations-have-opened-r701
==
Earlier this month, the nomination process for the 2014 Hugo Awards began. The Hugo Awards are science fiction and fantasy's highest honor and awarded each year by the members of the World Science Fiction Society at WorldCon. To be eligible to nominate you need to be a registered member of either the 2013, 2014 or 2015 WorldCons by January 31. Nominating ballots are due by March 31 and the awards will be announced at this year's WorldCon in London.

As we reported earlier, this is Robert Jordan's final year for Hugo eligibility in the category of "Best Novel" for the Wheel of Time series. However, there are many other categories and works eligible for nomination. If you are planning to nominate for the first time this year, we recommend participating in the process as fully as possible and nominating in several categories. Ballots from first time voters nominating one work in a single category run the risk of being discounted by the Hugo Administrators.



What's eligible for a Hugo? Any work of science fiction or fantasy that was published for the first time in 2013, or translated into English for the first time in 2013. That encompasses a wide variety of novels, short fiction, artwork, graphic novels, TV shows, podcasts and more. Anything you've enjoyed or thought advanced the genre in a new or interesting direction can be nominated. The Hugo Award administrators will select the five most popular in each category to become this year's Hugo nominees.

If you're still uncertain what to nominate, here are some eligible works we'd like to draw your attention to. Remember, these are just our suggestions. Feel free to nominate whatever works you enjoyed last year.

Best Novel

The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan and Brandon Sanderson (We believe that the current WSFS rules allow the nomination of the entire series as a complete work now that it's complete.)
Steelheart by Brandon Sanderson
The Rithmatist by Brandon Sanderson



Best Editor (Long Form)

Harriet McDougal, for her work on editing the Wheel of Time series and ensuring that her husband's vision was completed.


Best Related Work

Writing Excuses Brandon Sanderson hosts this podcast along with several other authors. It won the Hugo in this category in 2013.
Dragonmount.com There is unfortunately no category for best fan website, but if you enjoy our work here we'd appreciate the nod.


Best Fan Writer

Linda Taglieri runs the excellent 13th Depository blog which features the most detailed analysis of the Wheel of Time series online.
Leigh Butler is the host of the Wheel of Time Re-Read and A Song of Ice and Fire Read for Tor.com.
Aidan Moher is a long time friend of Dragonmount and hosts the popular review and commentary blog A Dribble of Ink.
Adam Whitehead maintains The Wertzone, a popular review and fantasy site. He is also a frequent poster to our forums.
Maureen Carr, AKA "Mashiara Sedai" who writes our popular theory blog "WoT If…" and edits the rest of our columns.

Best Fan Artist

Amy Dale, for her "Fields of Merrilor" artwork that graces our site.



Best Professional Artist

Paul Bielaczyc, for his "Dragon Reborn", which is available both as a print and as a t-shirt at Ta'veren Tees.
Ariel Burgess, for the body of work commissioned by Ta'veren Tees for the 2014 Wheel of Time Calendar.





Additionally, our friends at Tor.com publish a large amount of eligible short fiction and art every year. (In particular, please read "The Lady Astronaut of Mars" by Mary Robinette Kowal.) Also, many of your favorite authors will post on their websites about what eligible works they have this year. If you aren't sure if something you enjoyed was published in 2013, check with the author to be sure.



You can learn more about WorldCon, how the nomination process works and how to register by visiting LonCon's website. Remember, participating in the Hugo nomination process is an important way we recognize the best of science fiction and fantasy each year.

==

Here is the lin to the website of LonCon.
http://www.loncon3.org/memberships/