PDA

View Full Version : Jain Farstrider


Tollingtoy
01-05-2014, 09:47 AM
I'm a little bit unclear on a few things about Jain. Have we definitely confirmed that he was under the control of Ishmael, and if so, why? Also, do we know what he was doing in Ebou Dar when he found Mat? I've always assumed the old man with Grendael was him, but I don't necessarily see his reason for being there

Tollingtoy
01-05-2014, 06:51 PM
On an unrelated note--rereading COT and I'm curious, was it ever confirmed that Masema was working with Suroth and the Seanchan? If so, why?

Weird Harold
01-05-2014, 09:02 PM
On an unrelated note--rereading COT and I'm curious, was it ever confirmed that Masema was working with Suroth and the Seanchan? If so, why?
I don't recall anything definitive about who, but why was fairly obvious: His visions told him what to do. Whatever Masema did, he did because his visions told him to and whoever was behind his visions controlled his actions.

Rand al'Fain
01-06-2014, 04:00 AM
I don't recall anything definitive about who, but why was fairly obvious: His visions told him what to do. Whatever Masema did, he did because his visions told him to and whoever was behind his visions controlled his actions.

Well, it was stated early on that Masema wasn't all that stable BEFORE discovering that Rand was the Dragon Reborn.

Also, going by what Graendal did to the Commanders in A Memory of Light, I don't think its too far fetched that at least some of his "visions" were Compulsion weaves by one of the Forsaken.

Ishara
01-06-2014, 09:39 AM
I'm a little bit unclear on a few things about Jain. Have we definitely confirmed that he was under the control of Ishmael, and if so, why? Also, do we know what he was doing in Ebou Dar when he found Mat? I've always assumed the old man with Grendael was him, but I don't necessarily see his reason for being there

I've had it personally confirmed by Maria that Jain was that old man. (Huge personal coup for me, LOL.)

It's fairly clear that Jain had been under the influence of at least 2 Forsaken, Ishameal and Graedal. Why, and how is far more fuzzy...

Davian93
01-06-2014, 01:52 PM
I've had it personally confirmed by Maria that Jain was that old man. (Huge personal coup for me, LOL.)

It's fairly clear that Jain had been under the influence of at least 2 Forsaken, Ishameal and Graedal. Why, and how is far more fuzzy...

They needed his royalties from Travels to fund their diabolical schemes. Its all about the gold crowns in the end.

Tollingtoy
01-06-2014, 05:03 PM
Well, it was stated early on that Masema wasn't all that stable BEFORE discovering that Rand was the Dragon Reborn.

Also, going by what Graendal did to the Commanders in A Memory of Light, I don't think its too far fetched that at least some of his "visions" were Compulsion weaves by one of the Forsaken.

I sort of always assumed that one of Liandrin's group that we didn't know much about was behind this, but it makes sense that he would be "obeying the visions". Do you think there is anything more calculating to Masema, or is it purely based on fervor for the Dragon?

Weird Harold
01-06-2014, 05:53 PM
I sort of always assumed that one of Liandrin's group that we didn't know much about was behind this, but it makes sense that he would be "obeying the visions". Do you think there is anything more calculating to Masema, or is it purely based on fervor for the Dragon?
Not to Masema, but definitely more to whoever was manipulating his natural instability into a "fervor for the Dragon." Masema left to his own devices would have been just one more crackpot among millions.

Rand al'Fain
01-07-2014, 01:49 AM
I sort of always assumed that one of Liandrin's group that we didn't know much about was behind this, but it makes sense that he would be "obeying the visions". Do you think there is anything more calculating to Masema, or is it purely based on fervor for the Dragon?

Well, in his one POV, he really believes that he is the Dragon Reborn's Prophet and did as his "visions of Rand" told him too. And considering all of the chaos he caused because of his visions, not too hard to see one of the Forsaken doing something with his mind, a sort of Compulsion like with the Generals.

Daekyras
01-07-2014, 08:19 AM
You know, when you think about it Graendal really did get around. (obvious lewd reference aside)

Dhe really does come across as the most capabale and effective of all the forsaken other than ishy.

GonzoTheGreat
01-07-2014, 09:04 AM
Yeah, she just ran into the problem that the Dragon decided for a brute force approach against her rather than trying something incredibly sneaky, and the Shadow considered her responsible for not foreseeing that in time.

And, for some reason, she decided to outsource dealing with Perrin, and that didn't work out either. She should've just balefired him, or something.

Tollingtoy
01-07-2014, 06:03 PM
So you guys really think it was Graendal and not someone like Berylla or Rhiannon who were tasked with something and were not heard from again until the LB?

One of them gasped when she saw her instructions, but I can't remember offhand which it was

Kimon
01-07-2014, 10:44 PM
So you guys really think it was Graendal and not someone like Berylla or Rhiannon who were tasked with something and were not heard from again until the LB?

One of them gasped when she saw her instructions, but I can't remember offhand which it was

BS unfortunately either forgot about or just didn't care to explain the later activities of three of Liandrin's posse - we also don't know what Jeiane Caide was ordered by Moghedien to do, other than that it was something kinky that she was none to happy about. Berylla and Rianna are both possible as Masema's handler(s), likely not Jeiane, but I've always been more curious as to what the latter was ordered to do.

Cor Shan
01-08-2014, 05:43 PM
Yeah, she just ran into the problem that the Dragon decided for a brute force approach against her rather than trying something incredibly sneaky, and the Shadow considered her responsible for not foreseeing that in time.

And, for some reason, she decided to outsource dealing with Perrin, and that didn't work out either. She should've just balefired him, or something.

She slightly has the whole "obfuscating sluttiness" thing helping her slip under the other Forsaken's rader, even though half of them are somewhat aware that its a ruse.

EDIT: I meant to reply to Daekyras but I'm not fixing it.

Dom
03-30-2014, 04:34 PM
It's fairly clear that Jain had been under the influence of at least 2 Forsaken, Ishameal and Graedal. Why, and how is far more fuzzy...

What I would really like to know is what he was up in the series's time frame prior to his appearance in Ebou Dar, and what the notes have to say about that.

Personally, I like to believe he was in Shienar or Arafel when rumors reached him that Lan Mandragoran had gone to hunt for the Eye of the World, and had found it.

I'm not quite sure what exactly Noal wanted with his King - maybe simply to tell them about the same threats to the Eye that had obsessed him years ago, but whatever it was I think he might have followed Lan and Moiraine's trail all the way from Shienar to Arafel to Toman's Head, and that he was still trying to follow their trail to their camp in the Mountains of Mist when he had the bad luck to stop at or near Natrim's Barrow where the very recently established Graendal grabbed him. I wouldn't be surprised if her agents simply mistook him for another Forsaken's spy looking for Rand or for her, which awarded him an interrogation by the mistress of the fortress in person.

As to the rest - his task for her - the clues are in the Forsaken chapters, especially the Sammael/Graendal ones, but also the "tea party" and other chapters.

Graendal has worked hard and long to establish for herself a false reputation for predictability as a defense mechanism. The others expect all sort of things from her that are partially true but aren't always true and sometimes are pure smokescreens, for instance that she never trusts Darkfriends as her agents, a reputation to have exacting aesthetic standards for her pawns and to use debilitating levels of compulsion on them, to totally hate the wilderness and be a "jet-setter", to be self-indulgent, to avoid chaotic areas, to be totally unable to give up her comfort. For all they didn't fully buy that persona and reminded themselves from time to time of how dangerous she truly was, for the most part they still bought her masks too much for their sake.

The truth is that before adopting as a new form of protest by caricature this persona of over indulgence and superficiality she had been for years a strict ascetic figure, shunning the decadence and excesses of the AOL and denouncing them by deeds and words. She is obsessed with order and hates nature because it's unruly and uncontrollable. She is also the greatest adept at delicate Compulsion, not only because she masters the Weave but because she understands psychology so well - a fact she's trying to make rivals and enemies forget by brutally Compelling all the pets she let anyone sees.

Graendal doesn't use DF as pets, but she still ran a massive network of DF agents that Aran'gar envied, while Sammael believed she wasn't using DF at all. She had exacting standards for physical beauty and notoriety, but she is quite willing to forsake those standards for her agents she doesn't want the others to know about. She didn't hide herself in Tar Valon or the Caemlyn or Sun palaces, but at an old forgotten fortress in the middle of wilderness, in a country totally overrun by chaos and war, much of it of her own making... She planned all along to abandon all her pets and comforts if Rand came for her, and her back up lair was the last place the others would expect her to have chosen: a cave in the middle of nowhere.

The real mystery about Jain is what he had been doing in the Almoth plain area and how he attracted Graendal's attention.

It's not that as big a mystery what she tasked him to do in Ebou Dar: quite clearly it was keeping an eye on Sammael's agents there. IMHO, Graendal recycled Noal that way and probably had similarly unexpected agents who didn't even know they were hers in a lot of other locations.

Graendal did listen closely to his tales, we can be relatively certain of that. She must have gotten most of her knowledge of Shara from him (not to mention everything else about the world she possibly have gotten from Farstrider), which inspired her to devise her diversion with the kidnapping of the rulers that initially threw Shara in chaos. That done, she either "recycled" him in her regular spy network, or she gave him a specific mission to spy on Sammael's agents.

We know Sammael had his preconceived notions about Graendal's agents, and Farstrider most definitely didn't fit the profile. It's pretty obvious that when she decided to look into what exactly he was up to, Graendal thought Farstrider perfect for the job. He hates DF (and even made a famous capture of the betrayer of Malkier), he knows well how to fit in and not attract attention (he must, to have traveled in areas of Shara forbidden to foreigners), he's old and ugly.

I think a few things are clear:

-> He was lightly compelled to follow Sammael's specific agents and any curious stuff around them in Ebou Dar. That's not something he would have needed much "pushing" to do.

-> He had no instructions to report to anyone, Graendal was no doubt supposed to come herself eventually and get his findings out of him, and he almost certainly had no idea he was one day to report to anyone.

-> He was Compelled to forget Graendal and their encounters altogether. All Noal had was a vague notion he had a task to do and that some events of his recent past were clouded. He seemed suspicious, probably from his memories of having been used before, long ago, by Ishamael.

This was all done by Graendal in order not to even be suspected by Sammael if ever he captured Noal Charin.

What happened is that fate placed Mat on the trail of Mili Skane, which attracted Noal's attention to that other man interested in the same targets, probably because of his compulsion at first.

Contrary to an opinion largely held at some point, I'm convinced that Noal's Compulsion by Graendal never faltered as Rahvin's and Moghedien's did in the story. Ta'veren's alteration of odds is rather responsible for Graendal's failure with him. Noal met Mat with whom he could make common cause, and he did take that alternate way to obey his Compulsion. Contrary to her reasonable expectations, Noal found that one in a million loophole and, and when/if she came back for a progress report, he was no longer to be found. Graendal probably concluded he had been caught, and gave up. Noal never remembered Graendal, he only became more aware of having some holes in his recent past.

Much the same thing happened to Noal that had happened with Ituralde: because of a twist of fate, his Compulsion became irrelevant and he was able to move on with his life.

In Itulrade's case it happened because Rand convinced him the King was either dead or brain dead. Obviously what Graendal had done to Itulrade was clever yet subtle: increase his natural loyalty to his master to the point he would always obey his orders. It was so light that Graendal was going through extra efforts to make her messages from the King ultra convincing, as her control of Ituralde hinged on him believing the orders were genuinely from Alsalam. All one had to do to "free" Ituralde was to convince him any orders from Alsalam could not be really from him, which is what Rand did by chance.

The other I still suspect of having been used as a spy by Graendal is Renee Harfor, who with her control of the palace staff and frequent access to the master/mistress of the palace makes the best spy. I think Graendal compelled Renee to collect from her staff all she could on Gaebril and Graendal came periodically to get reports she then made Renee forget about. She simply increased Renee's professional attitude of suspicion about someone like Gaebril (and later, Rand) through Compulsion.

I think this is what happened to Asmodean. It's what Nynaeve did to find Graendal in TGS - going to the pantry to have the head of staff brought to her - that lead me to this idea (I think it reproduced the same pattern on purpose). On the day Rahvin died Graendal came to get as much of the whole story as possible from Renee, and to update her orders now that Rand would be the new master there. To avoid being seen, what Nynaeve did in Bandar Eban: she Traveled to a service area in the palace to ask the first servant she saw there to fetch Renee. While she waited in that room used by the servants for Renee to come to "Lady X", Asmodean looking for a pantry stumbled upon her.

Tollingtoy
03-31-2014, 05:35 PM
As usual, well thought out and totally makes sense!

Thanks Dom!