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Tollingtoy
01-30-2014, 06:37 PM
I was just thinking about the link between these two and was wondering, would Moridin suffer any ill effects if Rand had been killed by the renegade Asha'man or at the attack on Algarin's manor?

The fact that Rand is seeing his face in his head and it affects his ability to channel suggests they are closely linked, so could killing Rand actually be dangerous for Moridin?

Davian93
01-30-2014, 08:47 PM
I was just thinking about the link between these two and was wondering, would Moridin suffer any ill effects if Rand had been killed by the renegade Asha'man or at the attack on Algarin's manor?

The fact that Rand is seeing his face in his head and it affects his ability to channel suggests they are closely linked, so could killing Rand actually be dangerous for Moridin?

My guess is that yes, yes it would. If losing his hand made Moridin's hand hurt (and it clearly did), having Rand die would also be pretty bad for him. Probably a big part of why Moridin didnt want him dead.

Tollingtoy
02-01-2014, 09:23 AM
My impression from the end of AMOL was that Moghedien was behind ordering the attack on Algarin's Manor, since it mentioned something about her being able to impersonte other Chosen. She wouldn't have ordered this without Moridin's knowledge, right? So, why do it if it could potentially kill him too?

Also, didn't Moridin have some role in the order of the renegade Asha'man? Didn't he want Rand dead during the Cleansing?

Rand al'Fain
02-03-2014, 12:59 AM
My impression from the end of AMOL was that Moghedien was behind ordering the attack on Algarin's Manor, since it mentioned something about her being able to impersonte other Chosen. She wouldn't have ordered this without Moridin's knowledge, right? So, why do it if it could potentially kill him too?

Also, didn't Moridin have some role in the order of the renegade Asha'man? Didn't he want Rand dead during the Cleansing?

I don't think he knew about how deep the connection was until Semirhage tried to kill Rand and ended up incenerating his hand and partially blinding him.

Tollingtoy
02-03-2014, 11:57 AM
Good point

Terez
02-03-2014, 01:29 PM
I'm not so sure about that. He did give her specific orders not to physically harm him, exactly for that reason.

Seeker
02-28-2014, 09:55 PM
Terez, you're pretty knowledgeable on the Rand/Moridin thing. As a plot device, do you suppose it had any purpose beyond granting Rand access to the True Power? I know that it wasn't enough to make Callandor a TP sa'angreal; RJ also had to make Rand aware of the fact that it was a TP sa'angreal and that means he had to channel it at least once.

I've always liked your theory that Moridin secretly bonded Rand, though I'm not sure if bonding would be enough to accomplish a body swap. Was it just a plot device, or do you see a larger symbolism?

mogi67
03-11-2014, 10:29 AM
If Rand started touching himself, would Moridin get a boner?

neurotopia
03-12-2014, 07:21 PM
OMFG.

So if Moridin sat on his hand until it fell asleep...

Terez
03-13-2014, 04:33 AM
Terez, you're pretty knowledgeable on the Rand/Moridin thing. As a plot device, do you suppose it had any purpose beyond granting Rand access to the True Power? I know that it wasn't enough to make Callandor a TP sa'angreal; RJ also had to make Rand aware of the fact that it was a TP sa'angreal and that means he had to channel it at least once.

I've always liked your theory that Moridin secretly bonded Rand, though I'm not sure if bonding would be enough to accomplish a body swap. Was it just a plot device, or do you see a larger symbolism?
This is something I posted about back when the book came out. One of the reasons I never liked the bodyswap theory (aside from the ick factor, which I always acknowledged was irrational in itself) was the fact that the foreshadowing did not seem to predict a swap but rather a merge. I always assumed that the reason Rand had to die was to sever the link, but I figured it was impossible for Rand to die without Moridin dying, which really threw a wrench into the spokes of the theories I was trying to craft on the subject (which is part of why my theory site never went live). The pieces just didn't fit.

Now that it's done, it makes a lot more sense, because I don't think that Moridin necessarily died at the end. The "necessarily" is important because I think RJ always meant to leave it hanging in a very Schrödinger kind of way (to use his own terminology for the art of writing fantasy). But it still should have been impossible for one to die without the other dying if the link was to serve any other purpose beyond a simple plot device. What I mean by that is, for Moridin to die, his thread would have had to have been cut (severing the link by way of the afterlife), but his thread had merged with Rand's, so the severing of that link would deserve, in pure storytelling terms, some sort of in-book explanation as to what happened. Anything less is deus ex machina which in turn cheapens the arc of the merge. Not everything in a story has to be explained, but the get-out-of-death-free card is one of those things.

I think there is a certain poetry to the idea that Moridin did not get the oblivion that he was so much looking forward to, because his thread is still tied to Rand's. RJ even planted a hint of what that might be like for Moridin by describing what happens when your cour'souvra gets crushed. It fits much better the foreshadowing, in TEOTW 24 when Rand dreamed that he merged with Ishamael, and Min's viewing. She said one dies, and the other does not, but it was Rand's body that died, which would seem to work on the same level as all the other prophecies that said Rand, specifically, would die.

And in fact, if Rand is technically dead, and his soul has technically gone to the afterlife in Tel'aran'rhiod, it provides an eloquent explanation for why the waking world is like the World of Dreams for Rand now. His soul is in Tel'aran'rhiod, but since his thread merged with Moridin's, his body is in the waking world.

That brings to mind Dom's theory that Calian and Shivan are not Elayne's twins, but Tigraine and Luc, and that Slayer was created by merging Luc with Isam, and then killing Luc's body, sending his soul to the afterlife. "One did live, and one did die, but both are"—from the Dark Prophecy in TGH, about Slayer. But we know that RJ had the last scene in mind before he started writing, and of course, he foreshadowed Rand's eventual fate in TEOTW 24.

Of course, Slayer could change back and forth between Luc and Isam, and considering Rand's pipe, he can probably do the same in a physical sense (which relieves the aforementioned ick factor), but Rand is different because he is Rand even in Moridin's body. But since TPOD at the latest, he has been Moridin too, in a very real sense.

The overarching theme of WoT is balance, and while the symbol for the One Power represents saidar and saidin, it also represents Light and Shadow. In a sense, it's a conflation caused by the taint and the Breaking, but in a sense it also represents the cycle of the Wheel, and the need for the Dark One to be broken free once every Turn.

In Rand specifically, it has implications beyond that. He was a good-natured boy when the story began, and no matter how it progressed he remained that kind of person, but the taint started him down a dark path that was only worsened when he began to merge with Moridin, however that came about. In order to defeat his enemy, he had to become his enemy, and defeat the darkness that was inside himself. He accomplished that on Dragonmount, and though he was still clearly merged with Moridin after Dragonmount, he was completely in control of himself. He had simply overpowered the part of himself that was Moridin, and more broadly, the part of himself that was under the influence of evil (from the taint, from Moridin, and from the imperfect qualities of his own character).

On top of those thematic implications, it provides an way for him to go incognito without channeling, and perhaps more importantly, as was hinted in Aviendha's visions of the future, perhaps it's Moridin's personality that gives Rand the necessary selfishness to stay out of the conflicts happening in the world after the Last Battle, which is something that bothered a lot of readers. But perhaps it took a vestige of Moridin to allow Rand to actually enjoy the fruits of a job well done.

SauceyBlueConfetti
03-13-2014, 03:26 PM
...I think there is a certain poetry to the idea that Moridin did not get the oblivion that he was so much looking forward to, because his thread is still tied to Rand's. RJ even planted a hint of what that might be like for Moridin by describing what happens when your cour'souvra gets crushed. It fits much better the foreshadowing, in TEOTW 24 when Rand dreamed that he merged with Ishamael, and Min's viewing. She said one dies, and the other does not, but it was Rand's body that died, which would seem to work on the same level as all the other prophecies that said Rand, specifically, would die.

And in fact, if Rand is technically dead, and his soul has technically gone to the afterlife in Tel'aran'rhiod, it provides an eloquent explanation for why the waking world is like the World of Dreams for Rand now. His soul is in Tel'aran'rhiod, but since his thread merged with Moridin's, his body is in the waking world.

That brings to mind Dom's theory that Calian and Shivan are not Elayne's twins, but Tigraine and Luc, and that Slayer was created by merging Luc with Isam, and then killing Luc's body, sending his soul to the afterlife. "One did live, and one did die, but both are"—from the Dark Prophecy in TGH, about Slayer. But we know that RJ had the last scene in mind before he started writing, and of course, he foreshadowed Rand's eventual fate in TEOTW 24.

Of course, Slayer could change back and forth between Luc and Isam, and considering Rand's pipe, he can probably do the same in a physical sense (which relieves the aforementioned ick factor), but Rand is different because he is Rand even in Moridin's body. But since TPOD at the latest, he has been Moridin too, in a very real sense.

The overarching theme of WoT is balance, and while the symbol for the One Power represents saidar and saidin, it also represents Light and Shadow. In a sense, it's a conflation caused by the taint and the Breaking, but in a sense it also represents the cycle of the Wheel, and the need for the Dark One to be broken free once every Turn.

In Rand specifically, it has implications beyond that. He was a good-natured boy when the story began, and no matter how it progressed he remained that kind of person, but the taint started him down a dark path that was only worsened when he began to merge with Moridin, however that came about. In order to defeat his enemy, he had to become his enemy, and defeat the darkness that was inside himself. He accomplished that on Dragonmount, and though he was still clearly merged with Moridin after Dragonmount, he was completely in control of himself. He had simply overpowered the part of himself that was Moridin, and more broadly, the part of himself that was under the influence of evil (from the taint, from Moridin, and from the imperfect qualities of his own character).



Very well done!!

Tollingtoy
03-13-2014, 05:08 PM
This is something I posted about back when the book came out. One of the reasons I never liked the bodyswap theory (aside from the ick factor, which I always acknowledged was irrational in itself) was the fact that the foreshadowing did not seem to predict a swap but rather a merge. I always assumed that the reason Rand had to die was to sever the link, but I figured it was impossible for Rand to die without Moridin dying, which really threw a wrench into the spokes of the theories I was trying to craft on the subject (which is part of why my theory site never went live). The pieces just didn't fit.

Now that it's done, it makes a lot more sense, because I don't think that Moridin necessarily died at the end. The "necessarily" is important because I think RJ always meant to leave it hanging in a very Schrödinger kind of way (to use his own terminology for the art of writing fantasy). But it still should have been impossible for one to die without the other dying if the link was to serve any other purpose beyond a simple plot device. What I mean by that is, for Moridin to die, his thread would have had to have been cut (severing the link by way of the afterlife), but his thread had merged with Rand's, so the severing of that link would deserve, in pure storytelling terms, some sort of in-book explanation as to what happened. Anything less is deus ex machina which in turn cheapens the arc of the merge. Not everything in a story has to be explained, but the get-out-of-death-free card is one of those things.

I think there is a certain poetry to the idea that Moridin did not get the oblivion that he was so much looking forward to, because his thread is still tied to Rand's. RJ even planted a hint of what that might be like for Moridin by describing what happens when your cour'souvra gets crushed. It fits much better the foreshadowing, in TEOTW 24 when Rand dreamed that he merged with Ishamael, and Min's viewing. She said one dies, and the other does not, but it was Rand's body that died, which would seem to work on the same level as all the other prophecies that said Rand, specifically, would die.

And in fact, if Rand is technically dead, and his soul has technically gone to the afterlife in Tel'aran'rhiod, it provides an eloquent explanation for why the waking world is like the World of Dreams for Rand now. His soul is in Tel'aran'rhiod, but since his thread merged with Moridin's, his body is in the waking world.

That brings to mind Dom's theory that Calian and Shivan are not Elayne's twins, but Tigraine and Luc, and that Slayer was created by merging Luc with Isam, and then killing Luc's body, sending his soul to the afterlife. "One did live, and one did die, but both are"—from the Dark Prophecy in TGH, about Slayer. But we know that RJ had the last scene in mind before he started writing, and of course, he foreshadowed Rand's eventual fate in TEOTW 24.

Of course, Slayer could change back and forth between Luc and Isam, and considering Rand's pipe, he can probably do the same in a physical sense (which relieves the aforementioned ick factor), but Rand is different because he is Rand even in Moridin's body. But since TPOD at the latest, he has been Moridin too, in a very real sense.

The overarching theme of WoT is balance, and while the symbol for the One Power represents saidar and saidin, it also represents Light and Shadow. In a sense, it's a conflation caused by the taint and the Breaking, but in a sense it also represents the cycle of the Wheel, and the need for the Dark One to be broken free once every Turn.

In Rand specifically, it has implications beyond that. He was a good-natured boy when the story began, and no matter how it progressed he remained that kind of person, but the taint started him down a dark path that was only worsened when he began to merge with Moridin, however that came about. In order to defeat his enemy, he had to become his enemy, and defeat the darkness that was inside himself. He accomplished that on Dragonmount, and though he was still clearly merged with Moridin after Dragonmount, he was completely in control of himself. He had simply overpowered the part of himself that was Moridin, and more broadly, the part of himself that was under the influence of evil (from the taint, from Moridin, and from the imperfect qualities of his own character).

On top of those thematic implications, it provides an way for him to go incognito without channeling, and perhaps more importantly, as was hinted in Aviendha's visions of the future, perhaps it's Moridin's personality that gives Rand the necessary selfishness to stay out of the conflicts happening in the world after the Last Battle, which is something that bothered a lot of readers. But perhaps it took a vestige of Moridin to allow Rand to actually enjoy the fruits of a job well done.


Thank you! That actually helped to really organized a lot of thoughts about the ending and the nature of this link. I think the theory that Luc and Tigraine are Shevan and Calian is a good theory. It's the only really believable explanation for the nature of Slayer--that I've seen anyway.

And, if Luc and Tigraine are HOTH, I think it's reasonable to think that perhaps Nakomi is Tigraine?

Davian93
03-13-2014, 06:46 PM
Thank you! That actually helped to really organized a lot of thoughts about the ending and the nature of this link. I think the theory that Luc and Tigraine are Shevan and Calian is a good theory. It's the only really believable explanation for the nature of Slayer--that I've seen anyway.

And, if Luc and Tigraine are HOTH, I think it's reasonable to think that perhaps Nakomi is Tigraine?

I love it!!! It makes so much freaking sense!!! How the hell did no one think of that before?

Seeker
03-13-2014, 09:35 PM
Okay, I'm a little confused.


Now that it's done, it makes a lot more sense, because I don't think that Moridin necessarily died at the end. The "necessarily" is important because I think RJ always meant to leave it hanging in a very Schrödinger kind of way (to use his own terminology for the art of writing fantasy). But it still should have been impossible for one to die without the other dying if the link was to serve any other purpose beyond a simple plot device. What I mean by that is, for Moridin to die, his thread would have had to have been cut (severing the link by way of the afterlife), but his thread had merged with Rand's, so the severing of that link would deserve, in pure storytelling terms, some sort of in-book explanation as to what happened. Anything less is deus ex machina which in turn cheapens the arc of the merge. Not everything in a story has to be explained, but the get-out-of-death-free card is one of those things.

You're saying that whatever happens to one happens to the other? So, if one dies, the other dies too? Except that's not what happened. Yes, there's a mirroring effect but when Rand lost his hand, Moridin's hand didn't suddenly become rotting dead tissue. So while I'd fully expect Rand to feel Moridin's death, I don't think you can necessarily say that he'd instantly die if Moridin were killed.

So I don't think you can use the fact that Rand is still alive to justify the argument that Moridin must also be alive.


I think there is a certain poetry to the idea that Moridin did not get the oblivion that he was so much looking forward to, because his thread is still tied to Rand's. RJ even planted a hint of what that might be like for Moridin by describing what happens when your cour'souvra gets crushed. It fits much better the foreshadowing, in TEOTW 24 when Rand dreamed that he merged with Ishamael, and Min's viewing. She said one dies, and the other does not, but it was Rand's body that died, which would seem to work on the same level as all the other prophecies that said Rand, specifically, would die.

But it's a matter of degree, right?

As I said, it's not a perfect symmetrical relationship; Moridin didn't lose his hand or have the hand stop functioning when Rand lost his. The imagery you use suggests that Rand's thread and Moridin's thread became one single thread. But what if it's more of a case of two separate threads being stuck together. Like gluing to strands of yarn together?

And in fact, if Rand is technically dead, and his soul has technically gone to the afterlife in Tel'aran'rhiod, it provides an eloquent explanation for why the waking world is like the World of Dreams for Rand now. His soul is in Tel'aran'rhiod, but since his thread merged with Moridin's, his body is in the waking world.

But Slayer doesn't have the ability to shape the waking world as he does Tel'Aran'Rhiod. So, why would Rand get this power?

That brings to mind Dom's theory that Calian and Shivan are not Elayne's twins, but Tigraine and Luc, and that Slayer was created by merging Luc with Isam, and then killing Luc's body, sending his soul to the afterlife. "One did live, and one did die, but both are"—from the Dark Prophecy in TGH, about Slayer. But we know that RJ had the last scene in mind before he started writing, and of course, he foreshadowed Rand's eventual fate in TEOTW 24.

Shivan and Calian appeared at Falme. By this theory, Luc's soul was in Isam's body. Moreover, if as many people believe, the heroes appear in their latest incarnations, then wouldn't Rand have seen Tigraine and not Calian? (Or is Shivan the woman?)

Of course, Slayer could change back and forth between Luc and Isam, and considering Rand's pipe, he can probably do the same in a physical sense (which relieves the aforementioned ick factor), but Rand is different because he is Rand even in Moridin's body. But since TPOD at the latest, he has been Moridin too, in a very real sense.

He has? I think the best you can say is that Moridin has been influencing Rand. And I've always been skeptical of that idea. I tend to think it's more the Dark One himself who influenced Rand, first via the taint and then via the True Power.


In Rand specifically, it has implications beyond that. He was a good-natured boy when the story began, and no matter how it progressed he remained that kind of person, but the taint started him down a dark path that was only worsened when he began to merge with Moridin, however that came about. In order to defeat his enemy, he had to become his enemy, and defeat the darkness that was inside himself. He accomplished that on Dragonmount, and though he was still clearly merged with Moridin after Dragonmount, he was completely in control of himself. He had simply overpowered the part of himself that was Moridin, and more broadly, the part of himself that was under the influence of evil (from the taint, from Moridin, and from the imperfect qualities of his own character).

On top of those thematic implications, it provides an way for him to go incognito without channeling, and perhaps more importantly, as was hinted in Aviendha's visions of the future, perhaps it's Moridin's personality that gives Rand the necessary selfishness to stay out of the conflicts happening in the world after the Last Battle, which is something that bothered a lot of readers. But perhaps it took a vestige of Moridin to allow Rand to actually enjoy the fruits of a job well done.

First of all, how do you know that Rand doesn't get involved in future conflicts. He just might not be using the name Rand al'Thor. (In fact, it's a good bet that he isn't.) The POVs Aviendha saw were those of her descendents who wouldn't know that Rand is still alive if he took a new name. The girls seem pretty convinced that they should keep his secret. Doesn't Aviendha say, "Now we make sure everyone thinks he's dead."


Second, if Rand gained complete control over the evil within himself on Dragonmount, then wouldn't he still have that control after the body swap? Even if there is a ghost of Moridin urging him to be selfish, wouldn't he be able to squash that instinct?

Terez
03-14-2014, 01:29 AM
I think the reason one couldn't die without the other is because their threads were merged; the mental merging and, to a lesser extent, the physical merging, was a byproduct of the merged threads. Rand is, for all his new powers, still quite human and just as capable as before of failing to recognize his mundane weaknesses. It's evil he no longer has to worry about, not weakness. He gained control by moderating the part of himself that is Moridin, not by getting rid of Moridin altogether.

The only possible way to merge the life-threads of two people (in two bodies) is metaphysically, so it makes sense that the physical aspects of their bond were always subtle. In the same way, it makes little difference that one body is now dead; Rand is probably the same as he was before. But their merging is not a theory; it was predicted by Min, and we've seen it happen. It's just down to whether you believe the death of Rand's body changed anything.

Neither Moghedien nor Mesaana believed that an a'dam could be defeated in Tel'aran'rhiod, and Egwene didn't believe it could be used to stop balefire. That's the nature of Tel'aran'rhiod; the power is all in the mind. Rand has not only Lews Therin's memories now, but perhaps also Moridin's Talent, and the experience of having personally shaped the Pattern at the Bore (which always resembled Tel'aran'rhiod in its reflection of reality). That experience does not give him the power, but it does give him the ability to wrap his head around it.

We've discussed the question of whether the Heroes appear as the last incarnation, or simply the most notorious one. There are good arguments that it's the latter, but either way, there is no given.

Res_Ipsa
03-14-2014, 02:03 AM
We've discussed the question of whether the Heroes appear as the last incarnation, or simply the most notorious one. There are good arguments that it's the latter, but either way, there is no given.

That is a very interesting. Assuming the last battle does not always happen during the same age, I would argue that it is the last incarnation as some souls may not necessarily be able to be spun out more than once. And then of course new heroes are added, such as Noal. I would think that if he were a more established Hero of the Horn, he would have appeared in his most notorious form.

Tollingtoy
03-14-2014, 04:18 PM
Shivan and Calian appeared at Falme. By this theory, Luc's soul was in Isam's body. Moreover, if as many people believe, the heroes appear in their latest incarnations, then wouldn't Rand have seen Tigraine and not Calian? (Or is Shivan the woman?)




Weren't they wearing masks at Falme? Also, Rand doesn't know what Tigraine looks like or even that she was his mother at Falme, so I don't think it would have meant much to him anyway

SauceyBlueConfetti
03-14-2014, 08:19 PM
I think the reason one couldn't die without the other is because their threads were merged; the mental merging and, to a lesser extent, the physical merging, was a byproduct of the merged threads. Rand is, for all his new powers, still quite human and just as capable as before of failing to recognize his mundane weaknesses. It's evil he no longer has to worry about, not weakness. He gained control by moderating the part of himself that is Moridin, not by getting rid of Moridin altogether.

The only possible way to merge the life-threads of two people (in two bodies) is metaphysically, so it makes sense that the physical aspects of their bond were always subtle. In the same way, it makes little difference that one body is now dead; Rand is probably the same as he was before. But their merging is not a theory; it was predicted by Min, and we've seen it happen. It's just down to whether you believe the death of Rand's body changed anything.

Neither Moghedien nor Mesaana believed that an a'dam could be defeated in Tel'aran'rhiod, and Egwene didn't believe it could be used to stop balefire. That's the nature of Tel'aran'rhiod; the power is all in the mind. Rand has not only Lews Therin's memories now, but perhaps also Moridin's Talent, and the experience of having personally shaped the Pattern at the Bore (which always resembled Tel'aran'rhiod in its reflection of reality). That experience does not give him the power, but it does give him the ability to wrap his head around it.

We've discussed the question of whether the Heroes appear as the last incarnation, or simply the most notorious one. There are good arguments that it's the latter, but either way, there is no given.

Honestly you convinced me and changed my mind. I was firmly in the "no merge" camp but this just makes too much sense and answers many different questions. As I mentioned to you, I actually printed this and put it in the back of my book.

Terez
03-14-2014, 09:21 PM
:)

Also, I should have reiterated earlier that there is a difference between the soul and the life-thread. As I said initially, the Slayer theory requires that Luc's body be dead and his soul be in Tel'aran'rhiod. It's his life-thread that was merged with Isam's, not his soul. The life-thread only covers the incarnation; when the life-thread is cut, the soul goes to the afterlife, and it gets a new thread when it is spun out again.

Southpaw2012
03-15-2014, 12:53 AM
This should have its own panel at Jordancon.

Terez
03-15-2014, 04:53 AM
This should have its own panel at Jordancon.
I think this year's schedule is already set. It wouldn't hurt to ask Jen, though, and if not this year, maybe next. I'd like to discuss it with Brandon; he has said in public that RJ didn't leave any answers, so he's just as much in the dark as we are. However, that might not be true about the creation of Slayer. He said he based Nakomi on something "deep in the notes", whatever that means, so we might be able to prod the question from that direction.

GonzoTheGreat
03-15-2014, 05:32 AM
That is a very interesting. Assuming the last battle does not always happen during the same age, I would argue that it is the last incarnation as some souls may not necessarily be able to be spun out more than once. And then of course new heroes are added, such as Noal. I would think that if he were a more established Hero of the Horn, he would have appeared in his most notorious form.
Noal was Jain Farstrider, and it's pretty hard to get more notorious than that at the end of the Third Age without being the Dragon. On top of that, Noal appeared in the form that was notorious to the Hornsounder, who would presumably trump the importance of scholars who weren't there anyway.
Birgitte also appeared in the form in which she was well known at the time (including wearing her uniform), rather than in that of the woman who died a few centuries ago in the ToG and was almost entirely forgotten when Mat started asking questions.

On the matter of Luc:
If he were a HotH, and if his soul were in TAR, wouldn't he then know? Wouldn't he be aware of what and who he was? There is no indication of that at all, so I doubt he is one of the twins.
Plus: were Luc and Tigraine actually twins? They may have been, but I can't remember anything more than that they were siblings, just Elayne and Gawyn were sibling (but not twins).

Terez
03-15-2014, 06:39 AM
If he were a HotH, and if his soul were in TAR, wouldn't he then know?
It's a complicated question. Since we've only briefly had Luc's POV, we don't have much to go on, especially since the Luc we know via Slayer seems to be rather unlike the real Luc, whether it's because his thread is subordinate to Isam's, or because he was Turned (and then severed?), or what. But I would guess he is unaware of it, and has no idea where his powers came from aside from what the Dark One told him. Even Rand seems to only have a vague sense of what's going on with him.

There is no indication of that at all, so I doubt he is one of the twins.
Calian and Shivan are not twins that we know of.

GonzoTheGreat
03-15-2014, 08:22 AM
I tried to find what we actually have on Calian and Shivan, and now I've discovered that Microsoft has wrecked the Search function in the Explorer. That may be because I've switched off the Search Indexing, but that shouldn't make this kind of difference. Indexing should speed up searching, but without it a search would (should, at least) still be possible, just a few milliseconds slower. Anyways, this gives me something to do, doesn't it?
A bit off topic, I admit, but there you go.
Some free advice, worth at least twice what you pay for it: avoid Windows 8 if at all possible. Watching from the sidelines (as my brother occasionally does) seems to be fun, but using it isn't.

Terez
03-15-2014, 09:53 AM
More free advice: Calian and Shivan only appear in the Mat flashback, ACOS, Swovan Night.

Southpaw2012
03-15-2014, 10:46 AM
I think this year's schedule is already set. It wouldn't hurt to ask Jen, though, and if not this year, maybe next. I'd like to discuss it with Brandon; he has said in public that RJ didn't leave any answers, so he's just as much in the dark as we are. However, that might not be true about the creation of Slayer. He said he based Nakomi on something "deep in the notes", whatever that means, so we might be able to prod the question from that direction.


There is a panel this year where we get to ask Brandon any WoT questions we want so that may be our best chance.

Terez
03-15-2014, 12:04 PM
Maybe. You get better answers in a face-to-face discussion where you can ask a lot of follow-ups.

Southpaw2012
03-15-2014, 12:22 PM
I'll try that if it doesn't get brought up during the panel in depth. It'll be my last Jordancon for at least 3 years so I need to get as much info as possible!

Res_Ipsa
03-15-2014, 02:31 PM
Noal was Jain Farstrider, and it's pretty hard to get more notorious than that at the end of the Third Age without being the Dragon.

Yes, of course Noal was Farstrider, but Farstrider did not die and was rebirthed as Noal. He was made a fool of by Moridin and then left to pick up the pieces of his life. The question is is whether Noal was a new hero or an old one. If he was an old one, then it would support my idea that you take on your most recent form.


On top of that, Noal appeared in the form that was notorious to the Hornsounder, who would presumably trump the importance of scholars who weren't there anyway.[/QUOTE]

That is not necessarily true, it was the form he took as he died. He did not come back in all his glory as Farstrider, which suggest it is the last visage of the hero.

Birgitte also appeared in the form in which she was well known at the time (including wearing her uniform), rather than in that of the woman who died a few centuries ago in the ToG and was almost entirely forgotten when Mat started asking questions.

That does not necessarily support your view since we do not know when Birgitte was last alive and walking in the world, and therefore she could easily have been her last form.

Tollingtoy
03-16-2014, 08:27 AM
More free advice: Calian and Shivan only appear in the Mat flashback, ACOS, Swovan Night.


They weren't at Falme?

GonzoTheGreat
03-16-2014, 08:38 AM
They weren't at Falme?
Yes, but they weren't mentioned there. The flashback is to what Mat saw at Falme. Or what he remembered seeing there, at least, which, with his amnesia problem, is not necessarily the same thing.

Terez
03-16-2014, 09:10 AM
It's what he remembered when he recognized Birgitte for the first time.

Hugh the Hand
03-17-2014, 11:21 AM
As for the Form HotH take, did not Rand mention that he saw many names for each hero?

Perhaps the forms change by the person viewing them. I think learning if Jain/Noel was new or old would be a perfect question for Brandon and the panel and might help answer the question.

Also, I wonder if they look similar, did we ever hear if Bridget looked similar in each of her lives? Perhaps that is why Rand saw the different names for the same face?

Interesting question.

GonzoTheGreat
03-17-2014, 11:51 AM
They may sort of look similar in various incarnations, but not to such an extend that they would be easy to recognise.
A good example of that is the trouble that Ishamael had with figuring out which of the three ta'veren was the man he had known in the AOL. If Rand had resembled LTT a lot more than Mat and Perrin did, then that would have been a rather big clue, I think.
From what I remember, Gaidal Cain also looked different in each incarnation, although he was always ugly.

Res_Ipsa
03-20-2014, 12:15 PM
I asked Brandon at the signing last night two questions:

1. Is Noal a new hero? Yes. Brandon said that he disagreed with RJ's views that a hero once bound could not be unbound. Brandon thought that since the WoT is infinite, eventually everyone would be bound.

2. Does a hero take on their most notorious form or their more recent? Most Notorious. Brandon did not say this was confirmed from RJ but rather "how he viewed it."

GonzoTheGreat
03-20-2014, 12:33 PM
If a Hero takes on his "most notorious form" when he appears, then what happens when a Hero is totally forgotten by the time Horn is blown?
From what we know of it, the Horn was never blown in the Second Age, and neither in the Third Age until Falme. So there has been quite a lot of time and opportunity for heroes to be forgotten. Does that mean they are then unbound?

Terez
03-20-2014, 01:17 PM
I asked Brandon at the signing last night two questions:

1. Is Noal a new hero? Yes. Brandon said that he disagreed with RJ's views that a hero once bound could not be unbound. Brandon thought that since the WoT is infinite, eventually everyone would be bound.
He and I had a conversation about that. I pointed out that Heroes could die a permanent death if killed in the afterlife, and he got really excited because that totally solved what he had seen as an inconsistency. He probably forgot about it immediately. :p

Terez
03-20-2014, 01:19 PM
If a Hero takes on his "most notorious form" when he appears, then what happens when a Hero is totally forgotten by the time Horn is blown?
From what we know of it, the Horn was never blown in the Second Age, and neither in the Third Age until Falme. So there has been quite a lot of time and opportunity for heroes to be forgotten. Does that mean they are then unbound?
The Horn doesn't have to be blown for the Heroes to be spun out into roles that will remain notorious when the Horn is blown. They are born whether or not it is blown.

GonzoTheGreat
03-20-2014, 01:38 PM
The Horn doesn't have to be blown for the Heroes to be spun out into roles that will remain notorious when the Horn is blown. They are born whether or not it is blown.
True, but in the Second Age there wasn't much to do that would gain one such notoriety, so even if they were spun out, that would not make a difference at all. In the Third Age that was different, obviously, but by then who could match the right Hero to the right story?
Just look how much uncertainty there is about the looks of people like Cleopatra and Jesus, who lived a mere 2,000 years ago. Then try matching up Charlemagne to a previous incarnation from, say, 10,000 years earlier.

Terez
03-20-2014, 01:39 PM
True, but in the Second Age there wasn't much to do that would gain one such notoriety
That's silly.

Terez
03-20-2014, 03:01 PM
I emailed Brandon right after I posted earlier about his response, and he wrote me right back. I gave him two quotes:

TFOH 14
"None of them have seen you?" she asked anxiously. Birgitte was more vulnerable than herself in many ways, despite her knowledge of Tel'aran'rhiod. She had never been able to channel; any of the Forsaken could destroy her as if crushing an ant, without breaking stride. And if she were destroyed here, there would be no rebirth for her ever again.

TSR 52
Cain ignored Nynaeve as though she did not exist. "The precepts exist for a reason, Birgitte. Nothing but strife and trouble has ever come from breaking them."

I had completely forgotten that. So there IS an unbinding method. You just can't live through it.

For what it is worth, I am reasonably certain there is nothing in the notes about Noal being an old hero. [...] But maybe someone can find something in the notes at the library to be certain.

Edited to fix a really terrible phonetic typo.

Dom
03-30-2014, 05:54 PM
I can buy the way the merging of Moridin/Rand works.

I could fit it with my conviction that the Dark One acted intentionally at Shadar Logoth, grabbing control of the True Power directly through Ishamael to initiate the "merging" (which I still think began with ordering Ishamael to inflict to Rand his "True Power" wound in Falme).

I like how it parallel my ideas not only on how Slayer was made, but also on Slayer having been a kind of prototype for what Shai'tan could do to make Rand serve him "even in death", after his life thread had been cut and his soul had gone back to join the other Heroes in tel'aran'rhiod while still being tied to Moridin's physical body: Moridin like Isam would have been able to switch appearance at will and as Rand fooling the world he was still alive, help free his master.

There could have been downsides to the tactic, which would explain why Shai'tan preferred him to serve alive.

As for Tigraine being Nakomi and thus Nakomi being "the Chooser" (and thus an even more ancient incarnation of the Hero now known by the name of Callian. It was never explained why the WO knew the name Nakomi, but she spoke as if it belonged to very ancient oral legends of the Aiel), it's a really attractive theory that would explain a lot of things.

To summarize my Shivan/Calian ideas, I think Shivan's last role as "destroyer of what had been" was to hunt down and kill Janduin who was once to unite the Aiel, making way for Calian's son, the birth of what was to be.

Tigraine was the Chooser, and her choice of self-sacrifice heralded Rand's.

I never liked the notion that the brother-sister Heroes were Elayne's twins, because there's really no point in having Heroes "destroy" the Third Age or give birth to the Fourth 20+ years after the Last Battle. In my mind heralds have to have appeared before the Third Age died, and they came to announce/trigger its death. Thus it makes perfect sense to me that they played their roles not beyond the series's ending but as agents of the Wheel connected to Rand's birth, the event that heralded and sealed the upcoming end of the Third Age by beginning the fulfillment of the Karaethon Cycle prophecies, as well as the Aiel prophecies.

The other thing that always puzzled me is the clue given by RJ that Calian and Shivan are somewhat disguised, as their traditional appearance is masked (in black for Shivan, in red for Calian). That fits Tigraine/Shaiel, Luc who became Isam like a glove.

There remains one thing that bugs me about Tigraine as Nakomi, though: how could she appear to Aviendha near Rhuidean if she is a dead HoH? I guess this could be a contrivance by Brandon for which he no doubt devised some explanation that works for him, but it's hard to puzzle it out. From the name he gave the character (Nakomi in native American legends is the inventor of Dream Catchers) it's highly possible that Brandon conceived of Nakomi has having special, perhaps unique, tel'aran'rhiod powers that let her achieve what she did.

As for the appearance of Heroes, I'm not sure why everyone seems so convinced this is set by rules. They come from TAR, and no doubt they adopt there the appearance of their choice, which for most of them is probably neither their last nor their most well known (they're not even supposed to show themselves to the living...) but rather most likely at first after death it's their most recent appearance that dominate their mind, but gradually they come to intuitively perceive themselves as an aggregate of selves, and thus their most natural appearance after some time spent in TAR with all their memories as one life is probably something that might be called "archetypal" and that reflects their most dominant traits. That said, I'm virtually convinced their appearance when the Horn calls is similar to the choice made by Slayer as he steps in/out of TAR: sometimes it's a conscious decision to adopt an appearance, sometimes their subconscious chooses for them.

Thus I have no problem with Calian the Chooser being capable to appear as an old Aiel woman in the real world if she chose to. I'm still puzzled as to how she could appear in the real world to Aviendha, though. The chapter left little room to believe Aviendha had fallen asleep and met Nakomi in her dreams.. unless Nakomi has the power to triggers a dream state in people who are awake and to fool them it's real...

Terez
03-30-2014, 07:45 PM
As for Tigraine being Nakomi and thus Nakomi being "the Chooser" (and thus an even more ancient incarnation of the Hero now known by the name of Callian. It was never explained why the WO knew the name Nakomi, but she spoke as if it belonged to very ancient oral legends of the Aiel), it's a really attractive theory that would explain a lot of things.

To summarize my Shivan/Calian ideas, I think Shivan's last role as "destroyer of what had been" was to hunt down and kill Janduin who was once to unite the Aiel, making way for Calian's son, the birth of what was to be.

Tigraine was the Chooser, and her choice of self-sacrifice heralded Rand's.
I wondered if Brandon's choice of words here was deliberate:

He could . . . see, just faintly. A figure kneeling down beside him. "Yes," a woman whispered. He did not recognize the voice. "Yes, that's good. That is what you need to do."

He blinked, his vision fuzzy. Was that Aiel clothing? An old woman, with gray hair? Her form retreated, and Rand reached toward her, not wanting to be alone. Wanting to explain himself. "I see the answer now," he whispered. "I asked the Aelfinn the wrong question. To choose is our fate. If you have no choice, then you aren't a man at all. You're a puppet . . ."
And why does she know what he has to do? Maybe because, now that her brother is finally at peace, she knows what he knows. And maybe showing Moridin how it was done was Luc's most important role to play in the Last Battle; teaching Perrin how to use his skills was just a bonus.

The other thing that always puzzled me is the clue given by RJ that Calian and Shivan are somewhat disguised, as their traditional appearance is masked (in black for Shivan, in red for Calian). That fits Tigraine/Shaiel, Luc who became Isam like a glove.
I noticed that too. The Hunter symbolism is very strong with Luc.

There remains one thing that bugs me about Tigraine as Nakomi, though: how could she appear to Aviendha near Rhuidean if she is a dead HoH?
I thought of it as being a byproduct of the loosening Pattern. And even after the Bore was sealed, the Pattern should still have been thinnest there.

Terez
03-31-2014, 07:19 AM
Also, Brandon said that RJ wrote the scene where Rand comes out of the mountain, which never quite jived with his implication that Nakomi was his own addition (based on something "deep in the notes"). So it may be that RJ wrote Rand's words and Brandon inserted Nakomi into the scene. It may also be that RJ's note was more explicit, about Calian paying Rand a visit, but it would seem strange for Brandon to phrase it that way if RJ had already written her in the above-quoted scene. But I remember Peter saying that Brandon had filled him in and it was rather more explicit than he expected, so maybe Brandon merely changed the name and the physical description so that he could use her with Aviendha.

The idea that the Dark One was aware of the heroes and their afterlife is not really new, since Moghedien was able to recognize Teadra, but I do wonder if the red veils were somehow related to Calian's red mask. It would seem to fit His sense of irony.

Dom
03-31-2014, 12:20 PM
Also, Brandon said that RJ wrote the scene where Rand comes out of the mountain, which never quite jived with his implication that Nakomi was his own addition (based on something "deep in the notes").

I've wondered about that too, and I thought it might not be impossible that what Brandon found "deep in the notes" was alternate identities of the Hero Callian over the Ages, one of which was Nakomi (which very loosely fits with Kali, also as a sort of light counterpart to Lanfear - a kind of crone incarnation of Egwene).


From there, and knowing from RJ's notes that the mysterious woman dressed as an Aiel who came to visit Rand at SG was his mother "Shaiel" and the Hero Calian, who came to bring a close to a sequence that started with the death of Shivan (also a scene mirroring an earlier scene as RJ constantly did, here a return to the EOTW scene with Kari's apparition to Rand, no longer with a "save me" angle but "save yourself, yes, yes, here's the choice you have to make".) To further echo that scene (an nod to a maiden who became a kind of WO) Brandon decided it would be nice to have her also appear to guide Aviendha, in a similar if less literal way toward the right decision for the death/rebirth/transmigration of the Aiel (while not really having the final answer to give her, just some wisdom), the beginning of their destruction/transformation" having been set in motion by Shaiel too. Again, it's all a matter of making a choice.

Brandon might also have made this compromise of re using RJ's Calian/Tigraine as an Aiel woman in another scene with Aviendha, but because RJ left a note that the identities of Luc/Shivan and Tigraine/Calian shouldn't be revealed, Brandon couldn't be too blatant about her (like dressing her as a maiden and leaving her unnamed...), so he made her appear old, and crafted an alternative identity for Calian as Nakomi, based on something related or not to Calian which he found in the notes (it could be related to the fact she's a masked hero, who is often not what she appears to be, or remains hidden), for instance a reference to a very ancient hero of the Aiel, a Dreamer who taught the WO to use TAR in the first Age, which he decided to transform into an alternate identity of the HoH Calian.

But the more I think of it, the more it seems to me that Nakomi being one way or another related to Nakomi makes a lot of sense. To play the devil's advocate, it could only be that Brandon crafted her to be completementary, though Nakomi being Tigraine works much better. Tigraine would be her Elayne counterpart, Shaiel was her Aviendha counterpart, and Nakomi was her Min counterpart. The three phases of the moon goddess in one character, thus echoing the evil moon goddess triad in Selene/Lanfear/Silvie, heavily involved with Isam in those scenes. We had the dark version, it ends with the apparition of the Light's version with the Crone Nakomi.

Hugh the Hand
04-02-2014, 09:50 PM
Does that name mean anything?

Those that played Twin Towers, did not Imram's niece go by that name?

I assume it is a coincidence. Or that I have the names wrong, or Nakomi is a more common name then I know.

Terez
04-03-2014, 01:04 AM
It comes from Nokomis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokomis).

Terez
04-03-2014, 01:09 AM
Amusingly, bossman posted this Nakomi theory a while back, and then named it loony:

http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=7205

Technically, he explained it in different ways—Mirror Worlds, rather than Hero of the Horn—but he still gets credit as the first to seriously propose it here, I think.

SauceyBlueConfetti
04-04-2014, 01:44 PM
...though Nakomi being Tigraine works much better. Tigraine would be her Elayne counterpart, Shaiel was her Aviendha counterpart, and Nakomi was her Min counterpart. The three phases of the moon goddess in one character, thus echoing the evil moon goddess triad in Selene/Lanfear/Silvie, heavily involved with Isam in those scenes. We had the dark version, it ends with the apparition of the Light's version with the Crone Nakomi.

I LIKE IT !

Terez
05-06-2014, 09:50 PM
Just wanted to say that I found confirmation in RJ's notes that the name Birgitte came from a life she lived around the Compact of the Ten Nations, so shortly after 200 AB. She has lived as recently as about 500 years ago, with another name. I could detail how many lives she's lived exactly since the Breaking but I'm hoping that info will be in the Encyclopedia.

fionwe1987
05-06-2014, 10:29 PM
Just wanted to say that I found confirmation in RJ's notes that the name Birgitte came from a life she lived around the Compact of the Ten Nations, so shortly after 200 AB. She has lived as recently as about 500 years ago, with another name. I could detail how many lives she's lived exactly since the Breaking but I'm hoping that info will be in the Encyclopedia.

So essentially the Heroes pick the form they want, or stick to the one that is most iconic/well known, right?

Terez
05-06-2014, 10:46 PM
He doesn't say. I'm guessing the most recognizable.

Terez
05-06-2014, 11:20 PM
By the way, later he lists her lives without her most recent one, perhaps because there is a bit to contradict it in the books.

fionwe1987
05-07-2014, 12:19 AM
By the way, later he lists her lives without her most recent one, perhaps because there is a bit to contradict it in the books.

Her not knowing about Andor, etc.?

Terez
05-12-2014, 11:47 AM
I still haven't found much helpful concerning this theory in the notes, though it seems unlikely he had this in mind back in TGH. That goes for a lot of things...he was constantly building on his ideas to make a better story, and he often tried to use things he'd introduced in the early books, which meant working things out further than he had in the early books. We all knew this happened to an extent, but I was a little surprised by how fluid some things were.

I just wanted to say that it occurred to me to wonder if Moghedien's "good by accident" didn't have something to do with her discovering how to recognize heroes in the flesh. If RJ did decide to go this way, he would have started working it out somewhere around ACOS. This is where he planted the Min viewing that mirrors Slayer in the TGH dark prophecy. This is where Rand and Moridin were linked together: the location of Shadar Logoth seems to be confirmed in the notes, if not the mechanism, but again, RJ tended to change things at will so long as he hadn't been too concrete yet in the books.

If he was considering Rand's peculiar immortality while writing ACOS, it might lend weight to the idea that the crushed Mindtrap was meant to foreshadow Moridin's fate.