PDA

View Full Version : Ta'veren Bonding


The Unreasoner
03-05-2014, 08:11 AM
After Alanna bonded Rand, would she exhibit certain signs of ta'veren (sort of like quantum entanglement)? We see many cases of the three tavs having their lives saved by (what appear to be) ta'veren events. I ask because, post bond, killing Alanna is essentially another way to kill the Dragon. Would she experience near misses as well, even at a distance? It seems plausible that the Wheel would do such things, but I am unaware of any evidence for it. (also, Min's viewing RE Elayne+babes-do we know when it was made? Perhaps one of the factors that contributed to their safety was the bond, and they would have been vulnerable without it. Or, even if the viewing predated the bond, the viewing may have indirectly indicated the future bonding (sort of like Harine and punishment))

ETA:
And, going further, perhaps it explains the luck of some unbonded major characters also surviving long odds, even far away from a tav, as their loss would still be a blow to the Dragon (and co).

WinespringBrother
03-05-2014, 12:37 PM
After Alanna bonded Rand, would she exhibit certain signs of ta'veren (sort of like quantum entanglement)? We see many cases of the three tavs having their lives saved by (what appear to be) ta'veren events. I ask because, post bond, killing Alanna is essentially another way to kill the Dragon. Would she experience near misses as well, even at a distance? It seems plausible that the Wheel would do such things, but I am unaware of any evidence for it. (also, Min's viewing RE Elayne+babes-do we know when it was made? Perhaps one of the factors that contributed to their safety was the bond, and they would have been vulnerable without it. Or, even if the viewing predated the bond, the viewing may have indirectly indicated the future bonding (sort of like Harine and punishment))

ETA:
And, going further, perhaps it explains the luck of some unbonded major characters also surviving long odds, even far away from a tav, as their loss would still be a blow to the Dragon (and co).

After bonding Rand, she probably permanently became part of his ta'veren sphere of influence, but did not become a ta'veren herself. Maybe she exhibited ta'veren like properties in apparently influencing events as if Rand were there, but that would be no different than anyone else in Rand's sphere of influence. Besides, everyone can cause changes in the pattern, but only small ones if they aren't ta'veren.

And who is to say that her warder dying in the Two Rivers was not caused by Rand's ta'veren influence (despite him being very far away) since it ultimately led to her bonding him.

Ishara
03-06-2014, 07:40 AM
But, I think that the premise of her adopting ta'veren tendencies or characteristics is an overexplanation. Frankly, killing her as a means of causing direct harm to the Dragon is only a thing because he is her Warder, and we (and everyone else) knows the effects of the Warder bond. Same goes for Elayne and Min and Aviendha. The fact that it was propopsed to kill others close to him as a means of hurting or destabilizing him is one that can be linked directly to the Dark's assessment of his character.

The fact that so few people on either side of the battle knew about Alanna was a testament to Verin's attempts to maintain her allegiance to the Light while still walking as a Darkfriend.

The Unreasoner
03-10-2014, 08:17 PM
But, I think that the premise of her adopting ta'veren tendencies or characteristics is an overexplanation. Frankly, killing her as a means of causing direct harm to the Dragon is only a thing because he is her Warder, and we (and everyone else) knows the effects of the Warder bond. Same goes for Elayne and Min and Aviendha. The fact that it was propopsed to kill others close to him as a means of hurting or destabilizing him is one that can be linked directly to the Dark's assessment of his character.

The fact that so few people on either side of the battle knew about Alanna was a testament to Verin's attempts to maintain her allegiance to the Light while still walking as a Darkfriend.
I was thinking more of the generalized case of bonded ta'veren, than Rand's case specifically. So knowledge or ignorance of the bond's existence is beside the point, or at least it doesn't address my question.

Rand being wounded by the deaths of those close to him may have extended TV protection somewhat (Lan for instance probably should be dead) but it isn't the absolute 1:1 death ratio created by the bond.

IIRC, multiple bonders lessens the severity of the death-madness, so we should have probably seen less obvious examples of the TV protection after WH (or in other words, Manna* would be more vulnerable).

*was that a typo, or is it really her nickname?

GonzoTheGreat
03-11-2014, 03:16 AM
IIRC, multiple bonders lessens the severity of the death-madness, ...
Based on the fact that we do not have any evidence for (nor against) this idea at all, it is not quite clear on what you base this assertion.

Weird Harold
03-11-2014, 06:10 AM
I was thinking more of the generalized case of bonded ta'veren, than Rand's case specifically.

:confused:

Rand is the only Ta'veren bonded by anyone -- ever, so far as we know. How can there be a "generalized case?"

GonzoTheGreat
03-11-2014, 07:04 AM
:confused:

Rand is the only Ta'veren bonded by anyone -- ever, so far as we know. How can there be a "generalized case?"
Simple:
You start by ignoring Rand, since he is obviously a special case.
Then you are left with zero cases, and you extrapolate from that to infinity. Then you divide by 17 to normalise the results.

Edited to add: the scheme I suggest is not entirely statistically sound, but then, we don't have anything better, do we?

SauceyBlueConfetti
03-11-2014, 02:04 PM
But, I think that the premise of her adopting ta'veren tendencies or characteristics is an overexplanation. Frankly, killing her as a means of causing direct harm to the Dragon is only a thing because he is her Warder, and we (and everyone else) knows the effects of the Warder bond. Same goes for Elayne and Min and Aviendha. The fact that it was propopsed to kill others close to him as a means of hurting or destabilizing him is one that can be linked directly to the Dark's assessment of his character.

The fact that so few people on either side of the battle knew about Alanna was a testament to Verin's attempts to maintain her allegiance to the Light while still walking as a Darkfriend.

I am drawing a blank. Do we have exact wording explaining how the dark discovered Alanna was bonded to Rand?

GonzoTheGreat
03-12-2014, 03:58 AM
I am drawing a blank. Do we have exact wording explaining how the dark discovered Alanna was bonded to Rand?
Not quite, but we do know that a rather substantial number of AS found out about it, and did not seem to consider it something that had to be kept secret from other AS. If one of those "other AS" happened to have been BA, then that would be a rather obvious route by which this knowledge could have reached the Shadow's upper echelons.

Sarevok
03-13-2014, 09:40 AM
Don't forget that Verin was right there when it happened. We know she wasn't a devoted black, but could if she didn't tell anyone and it came out later, could she have explain why she didn't tell?

GonzoTheGreat
03-13-2014, 10:31 AM
She might have been able to talk her way out of that:
Verin prattled on; she had developed prattling to something of a Talent.She probably wouldn't have taken the risk, though.

The Unreasoner
03-14-2014, 04:26 PM
Based on the fact that we do not have any evidence for (nor against) this idea at all, it is not quite clear on what you base this assertion.
Maybe I'm wrong. I thought there was a QnA where someone asked if having multiple bonds might protect Rand from the death madness to some extent, and the answer was affirmative.
:confused:
Rand is the only Ta'veren bonded by anyone -- ever, so far as we know. How can there be a "generalized case?"
The hypothetical general case. I meant, discarding the explanation that relies on specific details of this instance of the Third Age, might such a phenomenon exist?

I am drawing a blank. Do we have exact wording explaining how the dark discovered Alanna was bonded to Rand?
Taim almost certainly looked into it, we know from Perrin that he noticed and puzzled over Rand's awareness of Alanna.

SauceyBlueConfetti
03-19-2014, 11:10 AM
Taim noticed and was puzzled. Yes.

But most of the Forsaken, if I recall, considered this "new" type of bonding to be odd and didn't truly understand it.

How would Moridin (or the DO) have puzzled out the concept of hurting Alanna would drain Rand, or at the very least draw his attention? I need to go search a bit. If the total aim was to drive him crazy with grief, they would have killed her immediately upon his entrance into the cavern. The intent was obviously to slowly draw power and attention from him as she became weaker.

Davian93
03-19-2014, 11:18 AM
Cadsuane and her circle were aware of it...and wasn't there a Black Ajah member in that circle? There was definitely that one black ajah member in Rand's circle that was convinced she had to get him to the Last Battle (thanks to Verin's compulsion) so its likely the word got around that way at a minimum.

Also, Verin very easily could have been forced to report it just to keep her cover.

Weird Harold
03-19-2014, 01:57 PM
How would Moridin (or the DO) have puzzled out the concept of hurting Alanna would drain Rand, or at the very least draw his attention?

Semirhage tortured at least one AS and Her Warder in setting up Halima's alias. She explicitly thought that shecould learn a lot about the Warder bond while gathering the other information needed.