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View Full Version : "Notes on books 2 through 6" by Robert Jordan.


fionwe1987
04-15-2014, 09:38 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BlNahMUCAAA-CTg.jpg

This is a condensed summary of the books post EotW as envisaged by RJ. Interesting to see how much survived, and also the major even that never transpired as described.

Source: Werthead on the Westeros literature forum. Will update when I find out more.

Davian93
04-15-2014, 10:14 PM
Out of curiosity, how did he come by them? Did he steal them from RJ's estate or something?

Great Lord of the Dark
04-15-2014, 10:18 PM
Someone rooting through dumpsters?

Seems odd he'd contemplate books 2 through 6 when Book 1 was not yet published. Is that consistent with what we know about how the books were pitched and other quotes about how many there would be back near the beginning of the series?

Davian93
04-15-2014, 10:22 PM
Even for notes, the writing seems a bit off....

I thought he originally pitched it as a trilogy and then later expanded it to 6 books when he realized a trilogy wouldn't be enough.

Seeker
04-15-2014, 10:31 PM
Where the hell was that? That would have made a brilliant story. That was the story I thought I was reading when I first picked up this series!

Zombie Sammael
04-15-2014, 11:29 PM
Terez posted it on Facebook a few days ago. I believe her and Marie are currently at the library which a lot of this stuff was donated to.

Southpaw2012
04-15-2014, 11:40 PM
Terez posted it on Facebook a few days ago. I believe her and Marie are currently at the library which a lot of this stuff was donated to.

This is correct. She has posted many little tidbits of what RJ had planned while thinking up twot and ended up changing. One interesting tidbit is the fact that Galad was supposed to be the son of Lan and Morgase and would have started channeling late in series.

Seeker
04-16-2014, 01:15 AM
He should have gone with that outline. For one thing, if executed the way he described it on that page, it would make the whole "you have to let people choose for themselves" lesson less forced. Instead of Rand learning that he cannot rewrite reality to suit his desires (as if anyone should need to learn that), he would learn that genuine cooperation produces far better results than forced obedience. (If anyone says "well, duh..." to that, I would offer that pretty much everyone who writes US and Canadian foreign policy could stand to learn that lesson).

Also, Galad channeling would have been great.

fionwe1987
04-16-2014, 01:05 PM
He should have gone with that outline. For one thing, if executed the way he described it on that page, it would make the whole "you have to let people choose for themselves" lesson less forced. Instead of Rand learning that he cannot rewrite reality to suit his desires (as if anyone should need to learn that), he would learn that genuine cooperation produces far better results than forced obedience. (If anyone says "well, duh..." to that, I would offer that pretty much everyone who writes US and Canadian foreign policy could stand to learn that lesson).
I agree. I feel there was still a way to do this in aMoL. Have Rand and Egwene unable to reach an agreement. Rand is still his "dark self", so he goes "alone" to Shayol Ghul, breaks the Seals, and the DO breaks free as happened in the books. Only this time, Rand doesn't have a plan to reseal, and he's defeated.

That done, he now has to build back both his alliance and his friendships. This would have been the perfect time to have his epiphany. Moiraine comes back to help with that, then helps him build bridges with Egwene, Cadsuane, Tuon, Perrin, etc. With times so desperate, people finally unite around him, and then the story carries forward pretty much as it did in the books.

Seeker
04-16-2014, 01:12 PM
I think his disastrous attempt to kill the Dark One would need to come earlier. Leaving the epiphany to the very end was a mistake. The outline seems to describe a gradual redemption of Rand, which is what we should have had.

Edit:
Because the story we got implies that years of persecution, mistrust, physical and mental abuse and the knowledge that you're going to die for people who spit on you can be fixed by an afternoon of "putting it all in perspective. The human mind doesn't work that way.

Dom
04-16-2014, 03:14 PM
Even for notes, the writing seems a bit off....

I thought he originally pitched it as a trilogy and then later expanded it to 6 books when he realized a trilogy wouldn't be enough.

That's already part of "the expansion". When he made his first pitch, he had the gist of the plot and characters of TEOTW, the general concept that Rand would try to unite nations and fail, and the gist of the LB/confrontation with Shai'tan and its nature.

In the early 80s, Harriet got him an appointment with her boss Doherty to pitch his idea for a Fantasy book. He talked of his first book and the general concepts of WOT as the origin of legends and being the source of more - and the general notion of the necessity of evil to have free will, and he told Doherty he had ideas that he could develop into 2, 3 or 4 more books. He knew the beginning (by which he mean the TR stuff) and the ending (the end of AMOL), but the in between was still vague in the extreme. RJ has explained (in an interview) that at the time he made thar pitch to Tor, trilogies were still the norm in Fantasy, and 4 books was already pushing it. He actually had no idea how many books he'd write at the time - the story wasn't fleshed out enough for that. However, Doherty rather insisted right away to sign RJ for six books, but he could fulfill the contract with other novels if he didn't need the whole six for WOT.

That document Terez found seems to be a written version of the ideas/synopsis/concepts for "the rest of the story" and most clearly of its ending that he had previously pitched verbally to Doherty. It's probably from sometime around 83-84-85.

Then he set to write TEOTW from his draft, only to realize early that he had to stop and figure out a lot more details of the world building and concepts, the nations and characters etc. before he could write the novel. In an interview he compared that phase to building a stronger treillis before he could make roses grow on it the way he wished. So he did that, likely drafted TGH too at the time, and returned to write what would become the final TEOTW. He spent four years altogether on the writing of TEOTW, and that document seems likely to predate his start on it.

Seeker
04-16-2014, 03:50 PM
I think the series would need 8 books to do what he described. Assuming Eye stays the way it is. (Rand finds out he's the Dragon at the End), then what you have is as follows.

2 and 3 involve Rand running from his role as the dragon.

4, 5 and 6 are Rand trying to unite the world by military force, culminating in his disastrous attack on Shayol Ghul at the end of 6.

7 is Rand's epiphany book. It would take an entire book to do that right.

8 is the resolution.

The story would have to be very Rand-centric with sub-plots for Egwene/Mat/Perrin but with most other characters kept to the background.

fionwe1987
04-16-2014, 05:00 PM
I think his disastrous attempt to kill the Dark One would need to come earlier. Leaving the epiphany to the very end was a mistake. The outline seems to describe a gradual redemption of Rand, which is what we should have had.

Edit:
Because the story we got implies that years of persecution, mistrust, physical and mental abuse and the knowledge that you're going to die for people who spit on you can be fixed by an afternoon of "putting it all in perspective. The human mind doesn't work that way.
Oh I agree. I was just saying that even given the first 11 books being exactly as they were, RJ still had a chance to keep his original vision alive if he wanted to.

Like you, though, I feel book 8/9 would have been a great time to have the disaster, and have the DO free. That's right around when the weird effects on the Pattern showed up anyway. With the DO fully free, these could have been amped up, and the sense of danger could have been more palpable. Then we could have Rand take his time learning his lessons and mending fences, and a world-saving coalition could have formed gradually rather than under a tent one morning.

fionwe1987
04-16-2014, 05:08 PM
I think the series would need 8 books to do what he described. Assuming Eye stays the way it is. (Rand finds out he's the Dragon at the End), then what you have is as follows.

2 and 3 involve Rand running from his role as the dragon.

4, 5 and 6 are Rand trying to unite the world by military force, culminating in his disastrous attack on Shayol Ghul at the end of 6.

7 is Rand's epiphany book. It would take an entire book to do that right.

8 is the resolution.

The story would have to be very Rand-centric with sub-plots for Egwene/Mat/Perrin but with most other characters kept to the background.

I don't really see why the story has to be Rand-centric, though. Rather takes away from the point that you need cooperation, no?

I'd rather have it that Rand failing to unite the world and failing at SG comes before Egwene, Mat and Perrin get their shit together. So Perrin refuses to help because Faile is a captive (how much darker and interesting would that be), Mat is Mat, and refuses to face up to his responsibility, and Egwene has half the Tower nominally behind her, but refuses to lend aid to Rand because she disagrees with his plan.

The next book can then be about these four getting their acts together, except the stakes are much higher now that the Bore is wide open. Perrin needs to get beyond his "Faile first" mentality and face up to the fact that he needs to embrace his role as a leader. Mat needs to acknowledge that he has a large role to play in saving the world, and especially bringing the Seanchan and Rand/Egwene together. Egwene needs to unite the Tower rather than divide it, and work with Rand, even if she doesn't agree with everything he does. And Rand himself needs to balance between these divided loyalties and priorities and his own baggage.

Ahhh.... what could have been.

Seeker
04-16-2014, 05:32 PM
I don't really see why the story has to be Rand-centric, though. Rather takes away from the point that you need cooperation, no?

I'd rather have it that Rand failing to unite the world and failing at SG comes before Egwene, Mat and Perrin get their shit together. So Perrin refuses to help because Faile is a captive (how much darker and interesting would that be), Mat is Mat, and refuses to face up to his responsibility, and Egwene has half the Tower nominally behind her, but refuses to lend aid to Rand because she disagrees with his plan.

The next book can then be about these four getting their acts together, except the stakes are much higher now that the Bore is wide open. Perrin needs to get beyond his "Faile first" mentality and face up to the fact that he needs to embrace his role as a leader. Mat needs to acknowledge that he has a large role to play in saving the world, and especially bringing the Seanchan and Rand/Egwene together. Egwene needs to unite the Tower rather than divide it, and work with Rand, even if she doesn't agree with everything he does. And Rand himself needs to balance between these divided loyalties and priorities and his own baggage.

Ahhh.... what could have been.

What you described would be pretty brilliant. It's mostly what I was thinking, but I don't think I expressed myself well. When I say Rand-centric, I mean that he has to be a much more active character than he was in the latter half of the series. A good chunk of each book has to be Rand POV (not just a few chapters) and he has to be actively progressing the plot the whole time.

The rest of those books have to be Mat/Egwene/Perrin POV with the odd minor POV for flavour in prologues, epilogues and transition chapters.

Now, I should point out that what we're doing is armchair quarterbacking. It's easy for us to say "He could have done this or that" after the story is over. And there's nothing wrong with that. So long as we don't get too convinced of our own correctness.

The point is that if you want the story that he described (and that was the kind of story that I was hoping for), you have to keep to a limited number of POV characters.

fionwe1987
04-16-2014, 05:44 PM
What you described would be pretty brilliant. It's mostly what I was thinking, but I don't think I expressed myself well. When I say Rand-centric, I mean that he has to be a much more active character than he was in the latter half of the series. A good chunk of each book has to be Rand POV (not just a few chapters) and he has to be actively progressing the plot the whole time.
Oh I agree with that. I think the reason we had so little Rand in the later series is that RJ knew there was going to be an epiphany that will magically solve his issues. So I agree that a more realistic change in Rand would require more Rand, and Moiraine and Cadsuane (if they're to remain partial drivers of his change) PoVs.

The rest of those books have to be Mat/Egwene/Perrin POV with the odd minor POV for flavour in prologues, epilogues and transition chapters.
Not necessarily. I think RJ did fairly well showing these major characters through the eyes of more minor ones, and that had to continue. Obviously we want Elayne, Nynaeve and Aviendha to have quite a bit of the action too (I just didn't mention them because while important, they're somewhat more accessory parts of the final puzzle). But I also feel smaller PoVs like Siuan, Romanda, Aes Sedai around Rand, etc. helped flesh out the Big Four characters' storylines. Could they have been curtailed compared to the main series? Maybe.
Now, I should point out that what we're doing is armchair quarterbacking. It's easy for us to say "He could have done this or that" after the story is over. And there's nothing wrong with that. So long as we don't get too convinced of our own correctness.
Oh I agree. I don't even necessarily see the need to restrict this to 8 books. Even a 12 book story seems feasible. In fact, my biggest gripe with the series now is that the "Last Battle" was just one book. It just seemed so much easier than either the War of Shadow or the Trolloc Wars. The characters barely get to react to it, and that makes for bad storytelling.

But imagine pretty much half of a 12 book series with the Dark One free, and the "Last Battle" being more of a "Last War" culminating in an epic final battle (to be fair, it was this way, but the stakes never seemed high enough with the DO locked up), and I can see no major issues with a 12 book strategy.
The point is that if you want the story that he described (and that was the kind of story that I was hoping for), you have to keep to a limited number of POV characters.
I disagree there. That same story can be had with plenty of other PoVs. It just won't be an 8 book, and definitely not a 6 book, series.

Seeker
04-16-2014, 05:45 PM
Sticking to the episodic nature of the the first books would make it work better.

Book 1: this is the story where Rand leaves the Two Rivers

Book 2: this is the Story where Rand hunts the horn.

Book 3: This is the story where Rand takes Callandor and unites the Aiel. (Book 3 had very little Rand plot so to keep the momentum going, trying to blend those two together)


Book 4: This is the story where Rand takes Cairhien and Andor (also the founding of the Asha'man)

Book 5: This is the Story where Rand takes Illian and and Arad Domon

Book 6: This is the story where Rand cleanses the taint and and attacks the Dark One.

Book 7: This is the story where Rand is a beggar.

Book 8: This is the story where Rand seals up the Dark One.


Do the same with the others.


Book 3: This is the story where Egwene hunts the BA in Tear

Book 4: This is the story where Egwene and Nynaeve hunt the BA in Tanchico (Yes, you read that right).

Book 5: This is the story where Egwene is named Amyrlin.

Book 6: This is the story where Egwene cements hold over the Salidar Sisters


Book 7: This is the story where Egwene unites the White Tower.


Book 8: The Last battle.

*******************8


Book 4: This is the story where Perrin saves the two Rivers.

Book 5: This is the story where Perrin heads south to stop the prophet.

Book 6: This is the story where Perrin obsessively tries to rescue Faile.

Book 7: This is the story where Perrin unites forces with Elayne. (Work him into the Andor plot)

Book 8: The last battle.

************

fionwe1987
04-16-2014, 05:52 PM
Book 4: This is the story where Egwene and Nynaeve hunt the BA in Tanchico (Yes, you read that right).

So there's no Elayne in this version? Do Egwene and Rand stick together as a couple then? That would be... interesting.

But I don't see this working. She needs to be with Rand for the Aiel. Not only are the Aiel critical for her character growth and revolution in the Tower, the time she and Rand spent in the Waste are critical to widen the rift between them. Till then its all about them rushing away to save the other. The Waste is where their agendas start diverging, and you seriously need that. A major part of Rand hating the Aes Sedai is Elaida having him kidnapped, but the I think the more important part is a deep-seated (sadly unexplored in the later series) resentment of the Aes Sedai for taking Egwene away from him. I don't think we'd have that if we didn't have months of Rand seeing Egwene siding with Moiriane and the Wise Ones and confusing that with thinking she is abandoning him.

Terez
04-16-2014, 05:59 PM
Rand was originally supposed to hook up with Morgase, who was a mix of Morgase, Elaida, and Berelain, and who gave birth to Galad via Lan. Galad was not only supposed to channel but also turn to the Shadow because of Rand's affair with Morgase. (Out of that came Gawyn.)

I could go on and on and on. The nascent ideas were in some ways very different from what we got. In some areas, though, the words in the books are almost exactly the same as the words in the outline.

Dom
04-16-2014, 06:02 PM
I think the series would need 8 books to do what he described. Assuming Eye stays the way it is. (Rand finds out he's the Dragon at the End), then what you have is as follows.

2 and 3 involve Rand running from his role as the dragon.

4, 5 and 6 are Rand trying to unite the world by military force, culminating in his disastrous attack on Shayol Ghul at the end of 6.

7 is Rand's epiphany book. It would take an entire book to do that right.

8 is the resolution.

The story would have to be very Rand-centric with sub-plots for Egwene/Mat/Perrin but with most other characters kept to the background.

With a world as big and complex and a cast as huge as in the published series, and with the multiple POV characters style RJ finally adopted after EOTW in particular, it could be a fair guess.

But I think you might overestimate the stage of development of the series when he made that pitch and that synopsis that explains his concept and thematic goals more than it lays out the story between those A and B points, that didn't yet exist.

I don't think RJ left clear hints that he intended already to have multiple side story lines beside Rand's, or to have many "main heroes" aside from Rand, or that he meant to turn it into a chronicle of an universe in the days of the LB. Rather, he left hints in interviews that the huge success of the first books let him turn the series in that direction with books 4-5-6.

From the few EOTW bits posted by Terez a few days ago, Mat and Perrin didn't even exist yet other than collectively of an unspecified number of "boys" tagging along, and playing no individual role (as we know, drafts of TEOTW eventually had four of them, before Harriet had RJ cut the one who seemed to have no purpose). The ta'veren concept didn't exist yet either. Egwene who wanted to be AS and Nynaeve who loathed them seemed more the characters we know already, but Mat & Perrin had yet to emerge.

So guessing on the number of books he would have needed sounds a bit futile. It wouldn't have been the series as we know it, and its pacing and scope might have been quite different.

Seeker
04-16-2014, 06:11 PM
So there's no Elayne in this version? Do Egwene and Rand stick together as a couple then? That would be... interesting.

But I don't see this working. She needs to be with Rand for the Aiel. Not only are the Aiel critical for her character growth and revolution in the Tower, the time she and Rand spent in the Waste are critical to widen the rift between them. Till then its all about them rushing away to save the other. The Waste is where their agendas start diverging, and you seriously need that. A major part of Rand hating the Aes Sedai is Elaida having him kidnapped, but the I think the more important part is a deep-seated (sadly unexplored in the later series) resentment of the Aes Sedai for taking Egwene away from him. I don't think we'd have that if we didn't have months of Rand seeing Egwene siding with Moiriane and the Wise Ones and confusing that with thinking she is abandoning him.

No, no, there's lots of Elayne in this version.

You switch Egwene and Elayne for the mid books.

Think about this for a moment. If we develop Elayne into the character she was meant to be. (The political mastermind/leader), then dream walking works much better for her talent. Likewise, giving Egwene the ability to make ter'angreal - something that has been lost since the breaking - elevates her to something of a legend among the Aes Sedai.

Having Elayne in the Waste allows you to develop her relationship with both Rand and Aviendha in a way that doesn't require a six book pay-off. Elayne would be with Rand physically during his "unite the nations" arc which is where she can do the most good as his advisor.

You can have lots of Elayne POVs by keeping to the same plot line. A battle scene against Illian from Rand's POV. The aftermath from Elayne's POV. You can have a Rand-focused scene (like Colavere's dethroning) from Elayne's POV because she would pick up all the nuances.

The way to create room for more POVS without creating series bloat is to wed plot lines together to the greatest degree possible. This is usually a good idea because it gives your main cast more opportunities to interact.

Meanwhile, having Egwene as the BA hunter is all set up for the things that would convince people to name her Amyrlin. She makes ter'angreal, she's learned to travel, she's faced Black Ajah and forsaken. To most Aes Sedai, this make Egwene legendary in a way they haven't seen since Cadsuane.

You have Nynaeve POVs during the BA Hunt.

Then right after the taking of Andor (Book 4 in this model) you send Mat south to find the Bowl of Winds. Through most of FoH and LoC, he's not really doing anything. Just kind of in the background. Get right to the bowl of winds stuff and pair him with Nynaeve. This allows for Nynaeve POVs without creating bloat. You want to fuse plotlines. Wrap up the bowl of winds stuff in the fifth book. Have Rand come to collect Nynaeve at the end (so he can cleanse the taint at the beginning of the sixth book) and leave Mat in Ebou Dar to meet Tuon. Explore the Seanchan invasion primarily through Mat's POV (which is what RJ did for the most part).

Now that you have Nynaeve with Rand, you can explore her POVs at the cleansing and the attack on Shayol Ghul. Have Nynaeve be the only person who really supports Rand. Remember, that she's a bit fanatical as well. Anything should be healed short of death. She could see the DO as a wound on the world if you will. So, this way she'll use the female CK with Rand and then you have oodles of room for character development in book 7 when both she and Rand deal with the aftermath of their mistake.

Dom
04-16-2014, 06:22 PM
Obviously, a major conceptual change between this early stage and RJ's later vision is that Rand's "disastrous attempt to destroy Shai'tan" was substituted for the LTT-construct idea and bearing on his shoulders and in his psyche the legacy of LTT and his disastrous failure to seal the Bore.

RJ had not yet really had the idea that Rand might struggle with "terminal insanity".

In the end he scrapped the idea of a first confrontation, and merged it with LTT's failure instead.

The gist of it is still there: Rand tried to unite the world, by force, and failed, then he had an epiphany and people who truly wanted to fight evil, of their own free will, began to join him for the final confrontation.

Seeker
04-16-2014, 06:23 PM
Use the political stuff from the Unite the Nations arc as the springboard for Elayne's claim to the throne. In Book 4, Morgase is disgraced by Rahvin. Rand kills Rahvin and earns Andor's loyalty but this kicks off the succession war.

At first, Elayne has no support whatsoever. Every letter she sends out is met with rejection as the people are sick of Trackand. So, she decides to work for the greater good by helping Rand and is instrumental in the diplomatic scenes when he takes Illian and Arad Domon.

This ups her rep considerably and from here, when Rand and Nynaeve are AWOL, she makes her claim for Andor's throne.

fionwe1987
04-16-2014, 09:04 PM
Rand was originally supposed to hook up with Morgase, who was a mix of Morgase, Elaida, and Berelain, and who gave birth to Galad via Lan. Galad was not only supposed to channel but also turn to the Shadow because of Rand's affair with Morgase. (Out of that came Gawyn.)

Wait... Elaida and Berelain? That's like a mix of the Dark One and the Creator. What kind of schizophrenic are we talking about here? :p

And wow... so the guy who turned out to be Rand's brother was supposed to be the son of his love interest and the guy who ends up being a father figure for Rand? Eww!

I could go on and on and on.
I hope you do, some time. This is fascinating.


From the few EOTW bits posted by Terez a few days ago

Was this on Twitter?


You switch Egwene and Elayne for the mid books.
Can't see that, as I'll explain...
Think about this for a moment. If we develop Elayne into the character she was meant to be. (The political mastermind/leader),
Was she really meant to be that? I never got that vibe from her, honestly. That was almost exclusively Egwene, even from early in the series. Elayne isn't a bad politician, but that's because she's had a lifetime of training. She never came across as someone who thrives on politics. Egwene did, probably also because she was around Siuan so much. They both see it as a puzzle to solve. Elayne seems to see it as a tool she'd rather not use if she can be the diplomat instead.

then dream walking works much better for her talent. Likewise, giving Egwene the ability to make ter'angreal - something that has been lost since the breaking - elevates her to something of a legend among the Aes Sedai.
Hmmm... this is intriguing, certainly, but I think too much of Egwene's own political success depended on her Dreaming and Dreamwalking. Goes very well with her personality too, of being adaptable yet maintaining a steady core, and of wanting to know as much as she can. But its an interesting idea.

Having Elayne in the Waste allows you to develop her relationship with both Rand and Aviendha in a way that doesn't require a six book pay-off. Elayne would be with Rand physically during his "unite the nations" arc which is where she can do the most good as his advisor.
And how does Rand go dark and authoritarian if he has a skilled politician he loves and trusts at his side? We needed Moiraine to be the only one training him in politics, and we needed Egwene to constantly second guess his decisions for him to start down on that path.

You can have lots of Elayne POVs by keeping to the same plot line. A battle scene against Illian from Rand's POV. The aftermath from Elayne's POV. You can have a Rand-focused scene (like Colavere's dethroning) from Elayne's POV because she would pick up all the nuances.

The way to create room for more POVS without creating series bloat is to wed plot lines together to the greatest degree possible. This is usually a good idea because it gives your main cast more opportunities to interact.
All this I agree with, but I still don't see Elayne working as an Egwene substitute here.

Meanwhile, having Egwene as the BA hunter is all set up for the things that would convince people to name her Amyrlin. She makes ter'angreal, she's learned to travel, she's faced Black Ajah and forsaken. To most Aes Sedai, this make Egwene legendary in a way they haven't seen since Cadsuane.
But that takes away her parallel struggle to Rand of nobody taking her seriously, everyone second-guessing her, etc. If she's a legend that makes sense as Amyrlin, her storyline is vastly different, and also less interesting, I think. Egwene came into her role because she was seen as a dupe. Not some natural fit to the job.

Terez
04-16-2014, 09:56 PM
I hope you do [go on], some time. This is fascinating.
I am going to shift pretty soon from random tidbits to writing more detailed analyses of the early notes, with references and the occasional quote. That is the kind of thing the collection is intended for, though I'm sure they mostly had academic researchers in mind. If you want to catch up on what I have posted so far, read my Twitter feed (https://twitter.com/Terez27) for the last few days. I am trying to stay away from Encyclopedia territory, but I am kind of half-excited and half-braindead so please let me know if I screw up. The analyses I want to write are more about how the earliest notes morphed into the story we got, while the Encyclopedia will presumably be about the story we got.

fionwe1987
04-16-2014, 10:41 PM
I am going to shift pretty soon from random tidbits to writing more detailed analyses of the early notes, with references and the occasional quote. That is the kind of thing the collection is intended for, though I'm sure they mostly had academic researchers in mind. If you want to catch up on what I have posted so far, read my Twitter feed (https://twitter.com/Terez27) for the last few days. I am trying to stay away from Encyclopedia territory, but I am kind of half-excited and half-braindead so please let me know if I screw up. The analyses I want to write are more about how the earliest notes morphed into the story we got, while the Encyclopedia will presumably be about the story we got.
Just finished scanning through your Twitter feed. Thanks Terez! Great stuff in there. And I'd be interested in seeing ur analysis. Been too long since I stretched those WoT-theorizing muscles.

Seeker
04-16-2014, 11:06 PM
Can't see that, as I'll explain...

Was she really meant to be that? I never got that vibe from her, honestly. That was almost exclusively Egwene, even from early in the series. Elayne isn't a bad politician, but that's because she's had a lifetime of training. She never came across as someone who thrives on politics. Egwene did, probably also because she was around Siuan so much. They both see it as a puzzle to solve. Elayne seems to see it as a tool she'd rather not use if she can be the diplomat instead.

That's a subjective thing; so I can't answer that. I'm basing "what she was meant to become" on what she became. Elayne doesn't really have a character in the first few books outside of "the princess." Even in the middle books, she's really not doing much but tagging along with other people (Mainly Nynaeve). She doesn't really get an arc of her own until the return to Andor, at which point most of the conflict revolves around her outwitting and out planning the other contenders to the throne. Whether that was in RJ's head from the beginning or something that grew in his mind over the years isn't something I can answer. She became deft at reading political currents, so we can assume that was her arc.

As for Egwene, she starts off as "action girl" and then settles into more of a leadership role. Again, this is personal, but I never once got the impression that she was good at reading people until about Knife of Dreams when she suddenly had the skill. Maybe a bit in Crossroads. But as of Path, she's still very much following Siuan's lead.

Which of them gets ter'angreal and which dream walking really doesn't matter. (since ter'angreal can let anyone dream walk). But if you want to develop an Elayne/Rand relationship, then you have to have them in the same physical space for a lengthy period of time. There's no getting around it. That or don't do the relationship.

Now, I'm working off the framework of what happened in the series, but if you really want me to armchair quarterback this thing, (And keep in mind what I said about hindsight), then I would have made Elayne a dream walker WITHOUT the ability to channel. The boys have very diverse talents but the girls all seem to get the One Power. A little variation would be nice.


Hmmm... this is intriguing, certainly, but I think too much of Egwene's own political success depended on her Dreaming and Dreamwalking. Goes very well with her personality too, of being adaptable yet maintaining a steady core, and of wanting to know as much as she can. But its an interesting idea.

Sure but you could just as easily have her success derive from other talents. If you're going to say "dreaming let her get ahead," you could just as easily say "skill with the OP let her get ahead."


And how does Rand go dark and authoritarian if he has a skilled politician he loves and trusts at his side? We needed Moiraine to be the only one training him in politics, and we needed Egwene to constantly second guess his decisions for him to start down on that path.

First of all, going strictly by the outline that we got on that page, I don't think Rand was meant to go dark in the way that he did in the main series. I think he was meant to try to force people to do the right thing and then learn that he can't coerce them into it.

But to answer your question (keep in mind that there are infinitely many answers. If you debunk one, I'll just invent another. This is a game neither of us can win).

To answer your question, there are several useful plot devices.

One is the taint.

The second way to deal with this is to ask a very important question. Can Rand and Elayne's relationship survive his attempts to bully other monarchs into fighting the Dark One. Use Rand's actions as a way to drive a wedge between them. There's no reason why he has to take her advice. As Rand becomes more fanatical, Elayne's methods seem slow and ineffectual to him. From his POV, they don't have time to wait for her to woo the other monarchs; they have to fight Shai'tan NOW! Rand would be at his darkest right before his failed attack on Shayol Ghul. Have that be the moment when Rand and Elayne break up.

Under this model, he would spend most of the sixth book planning the attack on Shayol Ghul (the cleansing would be a step in that process), so you break them up at the end of the fifth or beginning of the sixth. And you let that be their swan song.

Elayne moves on with her life and falls in love with Aviendha. (Which is basically what their whole "sister" bond thing was. They sleep in the same bed, for God's sake). Have Aviendha be a lesbian the whole way through. (Rand doesn't need a third love interest).

During his time as a beggar, Rand reunites with Min and grows close to her. This way you're exploring relationships in a more humanizing way. Instead of just three girls fall in love with one guy because... fate and they stay together forever because... fate, you have an actual relationship that develops and ends.

All this I agree with, but I still don't see Elayne working as an Egwene substitute here.

Honestly, I see those two as almost identical with their only major difference being feelings for Rand. Oh, there are differences in back story but if you list their character traits, you'll get a lot of overlap.

Instead of Egwene's goading, you'd have Elayne providing a sympathetic ear and trying to reason with Rand. You can have her succeed in the beginning and fail miserably in the end. (Not her fault. By this point, he's bonkers).


But that takes away her parallel struggle to Rand of nobody taking her seriously, everyone second-guessing her, etc. If she's a legend that makes sense as Amyrlin, her storyline is vastly different, and also less interesting, I think. Egwene came into her role because she was seen as a dupe. Not some natural fit to the job.

You solve this in the exact way that RJ solved it. The factions in Salidar are too divided; so they need an Amyrlin who isn't from any faction and the BA wants someone young and pliable. Egwene with her achievements is the only Accepted the Hall can rally around, but skill with the One Power does not guarantee the wisdom to lead. They all try to "guide" her until she takes control herself.

GonzoTheGreat
04-17-2014, 03:53 AM
I think his disastrous attempt to kill the Dark One would need to come earlier. Leaving the epiphany to the very end was a mistake. The outline seems to describe a gradual redemption of Rand, which is what we should have had.

Edit:
Because the story we got implies that years of persecution, mistrust, physical and mental abuse and the knowledge that you're going to die for people who spit on you can be fixed by an afternoon of "putting it all in perspective. The human mind doesn't work that way.
Rand could have tried to kill the DO right after the Cleansing, with both access keys still intact. Then there would have been a better reason why one of those broke (the DO was too strong even for the Choedan Kal) and it would have made the removal of the Taint far less of a victory than it now was.

Figbiscuit
04-17-2014, 10:56 AM
I vote for Seeker to rewrite WoT

Davian93
04-17-2014, 11:18 AM
Rand could have tried to kill the DO right after the Cleansing, with both access keys still intact. Then there would have been a better reason why one of those broke (the DO was too strong even for the Choedan Kal) and it would have made the removal of the Taint far less of a victory than it now was.

They could have had Nynaeve die during the attempt (and breaking of the CK key) and that could have been the impetus for Rand snapping out of his meglomania.

Seeker
04-17-2014, 11:34 AM
They could have had Nynaeve die during the attempt (and breaking of the CK key) and that could have been the impetus for Rand snapping out of his meglomania.

Stupid theoryland won't let me rep you again but that is a brilliant idea, Dav.

Seeker
04-17-2014, 11:56 AM
I vote for Seeker to rewrite WoT

Oh, don't say that. :$ I appreciate the compliment, but remember what I said about how easy it is to do these things after the fact. Plotting is my strong suit, I could never world build like RJ.

If you want to see some of my stuff, here's some sample chapters from my space opera.


http://keepersbook.wordpress.com

And this is my young adult anti-twilight novel


http://divineheritagebook.wordpress.com

fionwe1987
04-17-2014, 12:17 PM
They could have had Nynaeve die during the attempt (and breaking of the CK key) and that could have been the impetus for Rand snapping out of his meglomania.
That's a great idea. IT could be the "Egwene's dead" moment, but done earlier to have a real impact that can slowly unfold.

Seeker
04-17-2014, 12:19 PM
Indeed.

Davian93
04-17-2014, 01:32 PM
Building on it...Rand then feels massively guilty about her death for a while (his period as a beggar in the wilderness)...until someone (say Moiraine) points out that Nynaeve died because SHE made a choice to fight the Shadow with Rand and it wasn't so much Rand's fault other than by his poor actions. That brings it back around to the whole free will/choice aspect of it.

Seeker
04-17-2014, 01:45 PM
Building on it...Rand then feels massively guilty about her death for a while (his period as a beggar in the wilderness)...until someone (say Moiraine) points out that Nynaeve died because SHE made a choice to fight the Shadow with Rand and it wasn't so much Rand's fault other than by his poor actions. That brings it back around to the whole free will/choice aspect of it.

Bang on.

I was just about to post that exact same thing.

fionwe1987
04-17-2014, 01:53 PM
Bang on.

I was just about to post that exact same thing.
Yup. It could even be Egwene herself making that point, and that could serve as a bonding moment between them, allowing them to move past their past differences.

suttree
04-17-2014, 05:38 PM
Building on it...Rand then feels massively guilty about her death for a while (his period as a beggar in the wilderness)...until someone (say Moiraine) points out that Nynaeve died because SHE made a choice to fight the Shadow with Rand and it wasn't so much Rand's fault other than by his poor actions. That brings it back around to the whole free will/choice aspect of it.

Nice.

Seeker
04-17-2014, 06:36 PM
Yup. It could even be Egwene herself making that point, and that could serve as a bonding moment between them, allowing them to move past their past differences.

I would have picked Elayne actually as Rand's advocate. Throughout the series, Elayne is usually the one to point out that women have as much right to fight for what they believe in as men. She's arguably the most progressively feminist. (Guardswomen).

But it could work with Egwene doing so as well.

You guys have all hit the bullseye when it comes to plot structure.

Every scene you write should serve a purpose to the overall plot, and if you can kill two plot-points with one scene, so much the better. Every plot point is simultaneously the consequence to everything that has come before and the set up to what happens next.

Rand's attack on the Dark One isn't just there to be an awesome suspenseful climax, it's also the catalyst for his character growth and his reconciliation with Egwene.

So you guys did exactly what an author is supposed to do; you asked, "how can I fit Nynaeve into this?" Dav's idea to kill her is brilliant because it reinforces the fact that the danger is real and the people we love can be hurt or killed, while simultaneously acting as a catalyst for several other character arcs.

When it comes to the relationship aspects, you want lots of scenes like this

http://theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=220678#post220678

When the relationship is new, you start by exploring the firsts (First date, first kiss, first conflict, first time having sex), then you move on to issues. You explore the way that two characters fit and don't fit together. No two characters are 100% perfect for each other. Some pairings are obviously better than others. You ask questions like "how does _______ affect their relationship" where _______ is a larger plot issue that affects their character arcs. It's rare that I praise GRRM, but one perfect example of this kind of thing is exploring how Ned's position as King's hand strains his marriage with Catelyn. Not a lot. But it is hard on both of them being apart.

Scenes that bring characters together need to pull on your heartstrings. Scenes that break them up need to make the audience cry.

Davian93
04-17-2014, 07:16 PM
Once in a blue moon, I have a good idea.

Its kinda a shame as this would have been a far better series in the long-run. Cuts out all the tertiary fluff that doesnt matter and makes for a stronger character arc overall.

Oh well.

Seeker
04-17-2014, 08:07 PM
Between you and me (and the rest of TL), I think a lot of that fluff might have been caused by RJ's illness. The outline he wrote is proof that he had very good ideas.

The last couple years have taught me a bit about illness. I'm currently coping with a condition called keratoconus (Which basically means the cornea of my left eye is warped). So, I'm legally blind on my left side. That in itself isn't so bad, but the disparity between my good eye and my bad eye causes migraines, eye-strain, dizziness, nausea, muscle aches in my scalp and other wonderful things. At almost any given moment I'm in some kind of pain.

For about a year, I couldn't do much writing at all. Learning to write under these conditions took a lot of willpower and practice. Sometimes, when I'm in so much pain that I really can't concentrate, I put off one of the juicier scenes (A tear-jerker scene or a big action scene) and do something that doesn't require so much concentration.

It's possible that's what happened to RJ. If he was in a lot of pain, maybe he kept putting off some of those bigger scenes (like Rand attacking the DO) because he felt he wasn't at his best. He worried it wouldn't come out right.

fionwe1987
04-18-2014, 05:48 PM
I would have picked Elayne actually as Rand's advocate. Throughout the series, Elayne is usually the one to point out that women have as much right to fight for what they believe in as men. She's arguably the most progressively feminist. (Guardswomen).

I never got that vibe from any of them, actually. Props to RJ, he never made any of them seem to be reaching to be what they wanted to be. They come across as successful men do in most other novels. They take their ability to affect the world for granted. They each had moments where they told off a guy for thinking otherwise, but I never felt that any of them was feminist as the term works in our world.

That said, I don't think this is about advocacy. I see it as shared grief bringing two people together, then Egwene discovering Rand felt guilty for Nynaeve's death. I can see her giving him a piece of her mind, then, and maybe Rand joking how she sounded like Nynaeve, and as easily as that, they're both reminded how much they share, and how much the world could benefit if they decided to cooperate.

I'm happy we didn't have an overly sappy meeting of minds between them in aMoL, but I also feel we severely lacked any true conversation between just them. Maybe I'm just trying to make up for that, because it totally weakened the book for me. Rand being so very beat up about her death would work much better if they reached a detente before.

Seeker
04-18-2014, 06:45 PM
I never got that vibe from any of them, actually. Props to RJ, he never made any of them seem to be reaching to be what they wanted to be. They come across as successful men do in most other novels. They take their ability to affect the world for granted. They each had moments where they told off a guy for thinking otherwise, but I never felt that any of them was feminist as the term works in our world.

What I mean is (unless you count Min's pants) Elayne seems to be most comfortable with challenging gender stereotypes. She has a female warder, female guards. Female soldiers? (I can't recall if there were any in Andor's army). She's also a bit of a wannabe action girl. I say wannabe because she rivals Daphne Blake for her ability to be captured by the bad guys. But she always throws herself at the bad guys. Much more than Egwene or Nynaeve or even Aviendha ever did.

As to feminism, I think we have to agree to disagree. Women may be influential as diplomats, but the way people react to Birgitte as a Warder or the guardswomen or even the Maidens really paints this as a pre-feminist world. There's even this:

What she didn't have, however, were channelers to use in battle. She knew she couldn't ask this of the Kin. They'd never agree to it, nor would Egwene.Nor would Elayne herself. Forcing a woman to use the Power as a weapon would make her no better than the Seanchan themselves...
She needed something. An edge to use against the Seanchan. Something to balance their channelers in combat. The only thing she could think of was the Black Tower. It was on Andor's soil. She'd told them that she considered them part of her nation, but so far, she'd gone no further than sending inspection parties.
What would happen to them if Rand died? Dare she try to claim them.

She's very much against ordering women to use the Power for violence, but she's quite comfortable with ordering men to do it. And this is Elayne: the one I just trumpeted as the most feminist.


That said, I don't think this is about advocacy. I see it as shared grief bringing two people together, then Egwene discovering Rand felt guilty for Nynaeve's death. I can see her giving him a piece of her mind, then, and maybe Rand joking how she sounded like Nynaeve, and as easily as that, they're both reminded how much they share, and how much the world could benefit if they decided to cooperate.

That's one possible solution.

I'm happy we didn't have an overly sappy meeting of minds between them in aMoL, but I also feel we severely lacked any true conversation between just them. Maybe I'm just trying to make up for that, because it totally weakened the book for me. Rand being so very beat up about her death would work much better if they reached a detente before.

Personally, I think their reunion needed a lot more hugging and laughter. Maybe a nice scene where they reminisce.

fionwe1987
04-18-2014, 11:04 PM
What I mean is (unless you count Min's pants) Elayne seems to be most comfortable with challenging gender stereotypes. She has a female warder, female guards. Female soldiers? (I can't recall if there were any in Andor's army). She's also a bit of a wannabe action girl. I say wannabe because she rivals Daphne Blake for her ability to be captured by the bad guys. But she always throws herself at the bad guys. Much more than Egwene or Nynaeve or even Aviendha ever did.
Thing is, not all of those are major WoT stereotypes. Female Warder sure. Female guards is mostly because women don't generally seem to want those jobs (Elayne even mentions that there are occasional female caravan guards, etc. so nothing is stopping women from becoming warriors, and history is chock full of them).

As for throwing themselves at the bad guy: again there's nothing "bucking the trend" about it. Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, Maidens, village women of Emond's Field... they've all done it. It was pointed out as exceptional when it happened in Emond's Field, but that's got to be set against the background of Faile, Verin and Alanna.

As to feminism, I think we have to agree to disagree. Women may be influential as diplomats, but the way people react to Birgitte as a Warder or the guardswomen or even the Maidens really paints this as a pre-feminist world.
But there have been similar reactions to male Healers, a female Gleeman, a male ruler of Andor, etc. What I'm trying to say is that while the attitudes you pointed to resemble pre-feminist standards externally, they're very different in terms of actual causes. I never got the vibe that female soldiers were odd because "Women belong at home baking", or "Women are weak and delicate".

This is always the problem with discussing gender relations in WoT. RJ never went the whole hog with a world where women were equal to or ahead of men. He kept certain features of our world intact. But I don't really see much evidence for there being similar structural reasons for those conventions in the WoT world. There are several female Heroes who are warriors, for instance, and some of them lived in the Third Age.

In fact the one thing I would say that is definitely pre-feminist is that Maidens give up any children they birth. It implies a conflict between motherhood and doing a physical job, or at least ascribes a special place for motherhood as something to be protected.

There's even this:

She's very much against ordering women to use the Power for violence, but she's quite comfortable with ordering men to do it. And this is Elayne: the one I just trumpeted as the most feminist.
Two things: The men already know to fight, unlike the Kin, and her mention of Egwene makes it clear her issue is with Tower-associated channelers openly using the OP for violence, and the political consequences that would have.

Secondly, Brandonsim. In KoD, Elayne (or Birgette, I can't remember) has a thought of keeping the Kin from violence as long as possible, but reflects that that has to end eventually. That simply got changed when, I think, Team Jordan realized they didn't quite have a way to use all the channelers the Light had. So the Kin got relegated to Healing and Transporting, and the agreement between Elayne and Alise was born.

Personally, I think their reunion needed a lot more hugging and laughter. Maybe a nice scene where they reminisce.
Exactly. The scene of Egwene reminiscing about Mat was quite good, and even came at an important moment. Wish we had more of that with Rand.

I also felt it was quite tone deaf to have Rand hand her a ribbon. Their first fight outside the TR was when she unbound her hair to make a statement that she was moving on from that life. What does Rand handing her a ribbon and saying something about her wanting her hair in a braid say anyway? It didn't seem very Rand to me.

Seeker
04-19-2014, 12:25 AM
Thing is, not all of those are major WoT stereotypes. Female Warder sure. Female guards is mostly because women don't generally seem to want those jobs (Elayne even mentions that there are occasional female caravan guards, etc. so nothing is stopping women from becoming warriors, and history is chock full of them).

Yeah, but it's rare enough to merit mention. Just so we're clear, simply having a pre-feminist world isn't a bad thing.

As for throwing themselves at the bad guy: again there's nothing "bucking the trend" about it. Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, Maidens, village women of Emond's Field... they've all done it. It was pointed out as exceptional when it happened in Emond's Field, but that's got to be set against the background of Faile, Verin and Alanna.

What I mean is that most of the females in this series will fight when circumstances force them into a life-threatening situation. Elayne, actively seeks them out. (However, I've often criticized her as bone-headed for exactly that reason. Not that she goes into danger, so much as she always overestimates her ability to cope with whatever the shadow throws at her).

But as I was writing this, I couldn't help but wonder how often the men actively picked a fight with the bad guys. Rand, sure. But that was part of his job (taking down the Forsaken). Mat and Perrin always preferred to avoid violence wherever possible.

I was going to say that you don't get a lot of Action Girl moments, but then you don't get a lot of Action Guy moments either, so it may be a moot point.


But there have been similar reactions to male Healers, a female Gleeman, a male ruler of Andor, etc. What I'm trying to say is that while the attitudes you pointed to resemble pre-feminist standards externally, they're very different in terms of actual causes. I never got the vibe that female soldiers were odd because "Women belong at home baking", or "Women are weak and delicate".

Yeah, but the point of feminism is that there ARE no gender roles. Anyone can do anything provided he or she has the aptitude. So, if you're writing a society where there are very clearly defined gender roles - even if they're different from traditional gender roles in the real world - then that's pre-feminist. Again, pre-feminist does not mean bad. Let me make that perfectly clear. Tolkien is pre-feminist.

This is always the problem with discussing gender relations in WoT. RJ never went the whole hog with a world where women were equal to or ahead of men. He kept certain features of our world intact. But I don't really see much evidence for there being similar structural reasons for those conventions in the WoT world. There are several female Heroes who are warriors, for instance, and some of them lived in the Third Age.

He's writing about a pre-industrial society. That usually brings to mind defined gender roles. I think he did a good job of playing with those roles so that there were opportunities for women to be the heads of households or owners of businesses. There are some questionable things.

Having men dominate the One Power while women submit to it sends a rather uncomfortable message.


Two things: The men already know to fight, unlike the Kin, and her mention of Egwene makes it clear her issue is with Tower-associated channelers openly using the OP for violence, and the political consequences that would have.

Yeah, but that's not her reasoning, is it? She says straight out that it's wrong to have a woman use the power as a weapon. That makes her no better than the Seanchan.

Secondly, Brandonsim. In KoD, Elayne (or Birgette, I can't remember) has a thought of keeping the Kin from violence as long as possible, but reflects that that has to end eventually. That simply got changed when, I think, Team Jordan realized they didn't quite have a way to use all the channelers the Light had. So the Kin got relegated to Healing and Transporting, and the agreement between Elayne and Alise was born.

Yeah, you're probably right about that.

I also felt it was quite tone deaf to have Rand hand her a ribbon. Their first fight outside the TR was when she unbound her hair to make a statement that she was moving on from that life. What does Rand handing her a ribbon and saying something about her wanting her hair in a braid say anyway? It didn't seem very Rand to me.

What else should he have given her?

They've had almost no interaction since the first book. It's hard to call back to an event that never happened.

GonzoTheGreat
04-19-2014, 03:49 AM
She's very much against ordering women to use the Power for violence, but she's quite comfortable with ordering men to do it. And this is Elayne: the one I just trumpeted as the most feminist.
I doubt that is because of a sexist, "women shouldn't go into danger" attitude. Instead, it seems to be a direct result of one of the Three Oaths: "Under the Light and by my hope of salvation and rebirth, I vow that I will never use the One Power as a weapon except against Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme of defending my life or that of my Warder or another sister."

Just like every other AS, she has a tendency to interpret those Oaths in an illogical way, and their hesitancy about using the OP as a weapon against Shadowspawn is just one example of that. They're willing if the Trollocs appear in their own room, of course. But they didn't go to the Borderlands to fight, because "AS do not use the OP in battle".
On top of that there's the AS attitude of considering the Kin to be something like Novices (and perhaps a few Accepted) who should be kept out of trouble rather than send into it.

That said, I think that Aviendha is more feminist; she's just far more casual about it so that it isn't as apparent.

Terez
04-22-2014, 11:21 AM
From looking at the notes further, it would appear that the idea for Rand's disastrous failure evolved into two things: his encounter with Ba'alzamon at the end of TEOTW, and Lews Therin's failure, which was not yet developed as a plot point, hence RJ referring to Rand as "the Dragon" rather than "the Dragon Reborn". The ideas in this little outline are very, very nascent.

Terez
04-23-2014, 05:48 PM
Actually, the disaster in the previous Age was in RJ's earliest outline that I can find. It seems to have gone under the radar at one point, and then some elements of it were readopted later. Shai'tan started out as some kind of alien god-being, and the Forsaken as his alien half-men lieutenants, or something. It's going to be a headache and a half trying to catalogue the evolution of plot points, but I am going to do it.

Seeker
04-23-2014, 06:03 PM
Well, if anyone's up to this herculean task, you are.

:)

Terez
04-23-2014, 06:42 PM
It will be headache-inducing, but still fun. The earliest outline I mentioned is not quite his earliest ideas on the series, though. In his earliest ideas for the series, the hero was essentially Tam. I haven't found any notes on anything like that, but it's something RJ mentioned every now and then on tour and the like. Then he decided he wanted his main character to be a "Candide". I think the first outline I have is probably from 1984, but his thoughts on the Tam-character as the hero came before that, when he was still just kicking ideas around in his head. It's possible he has earlier notes that are on his old Apple II held by the library. (They have to figure out how to get the files off of it, which is much easier said than done.) I think, though, that he used that Apple II to print out some of the things we're looking at. A lot of stuff was on old computer-printer paper.

Seeker
04-23-2014, 07:04 PM
Whatever happened to his plan to format his hard drive seven times?

Terez
04-23-2014, 08:29 PM
The same thing that happened to his plan to burn all his notes. He said near the end that he merely worried that some crazy person would think it a good idea to assassinate him so that a quicker writer could finish the story.

Seeker
04-24-2014, 12:04 AM
The same thing that happened to his plan to burn all his notes. He said near the end that he merely worried that some crazy person would think it a good idea to assassinate him so that a quicker writer could finish the story.

Seriously?

He said that?

Terez
04-24-2014, 12:09 AM
Yes. But, as always, it's not entirely clear if he was serious.

Davian93
04-24-2014, 08:33 AM
Yes. But, as always, it's not entirely clear if he was serious.

RJ always had a very dry sense of humor...

fionwe1987
04-24-2014, 12:27 PM
RJ always had a very dry sense of humor...

Yup. Its kind of funny we didn't get any character who really had that. I think it would have suited someone like Siuan just fine...