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View Full Version : After finishing my second full reread of the series;


Rand al'Fain
04-24-2014, 11:45 AM
A couple of things I would like to point out.

1. The ending of AMOL sets it up for outriggers. I don't remember if Robert Jordan had written the ending before dying, or if Sanderson wrote it from the notes, but the way it ends with the various POVs really sets them up to continue their stories in outriggers.

2. That said, Rand's story is pretty much done, other than maybe a cameo appearance or mentioned when warranted, but I do expect him to somehow stay in contact with Elayne, Min, and Aviendha. And Cadsuane all but knows he is still alive. But otherwise, his story arc is done. And I doubt Rand would just abandon his kids with Elayne (and possibly Min and Aviendha if he got them pregnant), so I could seem some sort of cameo.

3. Mat's about to be a biological father! Olver is already his son in all but name, and although may not recieve royal titles, I can see him being highly ranked nonetheless. Plus, it sets him up to be a future hero of some sort with following Mat and the Band, learning from Noal, etc.

4. Okay, when DID Elayne find time to teach Rand politics? Up until the last few books, that was all credited to either Moiraine or through personal experience. Supposedly it was while they were in Tear, but it was never mentioned prior.

5. After so much build-up and action, the ending, other than setting up the other main characters for outriggers, is also rather abrupt. It just, ends. Yeah, it says "It is an ending", but this is also what sets up the outriggers.

Hugh the Hand
04-24-2014, 01:09 PM
Elyane did teach him a lot while in Tear, as did Thom.

Also he learned from his memories I believe, and remember throughout the series, Rand, Mat and Perrin also show a remarkable grasp of politics, at least according to others. The Boys see it as common sense, but others see it as more complicated.

Rand in his own POV says Elayne taught him a lot, and it is odd that she did so very quickly, but he might have been lying to himself and most of what he knew came from other sources he trusted less like LTT and Moriane.

Seeker
04-24-2014, 01:48 PM
Elyane did teach him a lot while in Tear, as did Thom.

Also he learned from his memories I believe, and remember throughout the series, Rand, Mat and Perrin also show a remarkable grasp of politics, at least according to others. The Boys see it as common sense, but others see it as more complicated.

Rand in his own POV says Elayne taught him a lot, and it is odd that she did so very quickly, but he might have been lying to himself and most of what he knew came from other sources he trusted less like LTT and Moriane.

We really must applaud her ability to condense 18 years of training into a three week crash course. ;)

Seeker
04-24-2014, 04:51 PM
The hard part for me is the ending. I really wanted to see either the end of the Dark One (without it changing people) or the creation of non cyclic time. I realize that's not an opinion most people share.

Rereading the last book is just impossible for me (ice tried twice) As much as I like the first half, I just can't care about the ending.

I sometimes think though that it's extremely personal. The story drifted l sui far away from what I fell in love with as a teenager that I felt let down. This, however, is a problem in me and not a problem in the story or its authors. I simply have to accept that WoT just isn't to my tastes the way it was fifteen years ago.

David Selig
04-24-2014, 07:46 PM
We really must applaud her ability to condense 18 years of training into a three week crash course. ;)
3 days actually. Most of which were spent making out.

Davian93
04-24-2014, 07:48 PM
We really must applaud her ability to condense 18 years of training into a three week crash course. ;)

3 days, not 3 weeks. They hung out for 3 days in Tear. That's it. Their entire relationship was based on 20 min in Camelyn and 3 days in Tear. That's why it never made any sense and why Mat/Elayne made 1 million times more sense. That was actually back and forth and tension between Mat/Elayne. Rand/Elayne was so utterly boring and stupid.

God forbid they make up something where 'Daughter of the Nine Moons' was some obscure title for the Daughter-Heir of Andor...that would have just sucked.

fionwe1987
04-24-2014, 09:03 PM
God forbid they make up something where 'Daughter of the Nine Moons' was some obscure title for the Daughter-Heir of Andor...that would have just sucked.
I think the fact that Rand/Elayne sucked can't be remedied by shunting her off to Mat. It would simply have made more sense to have Rand and Elayne interact a bit more. Maybe move Elayne to Camelyn soon after Rand takes over from Rahvin. There could have been some genuine tension there with Rand "giving" her the throne, and her having to push him away for political reasons.

Meanwhile, Mat, Aviendha and Nynaeve were enough for plenty of comedy to ensue in Ebou Dar.

Seeker
04-24-2014, 10:26 PM
I think the fact that Rand/Elayne sucked can't be remedied by shunting her off to Mat. It would simply have made more sense to have Rand and Elayne interact a bit more. Maybe move Elayne to Camelyn soon after Rand takes over from Rahvin. There could have been some genuine tension there with Rand "giving" her the throne, and her having to push him away for political reasons.

Meanwhile, Mat, Aviendha and Nynaeve were enough for plenty of comedy to ensue in Ebou Dar.

Oh, I disagree.

As much as I liked the Rand/Elayne ideas we were tossing around last week, Elayne and Mat have wonderful chemistry. Better chemistry than any other pairing in the series with the possible exception of Rand/Min.

RJ pretty much told a classic love story without even meaning to. Yes the princess and the rogue is a tale as old as time, but if I can quite Josh Schwartz (who wrote many episodes of Chuck). "Sometimes, the key to good writing is not to come up with something brand new but to take something familiar and make it feel new again."

The fact that they're both fully fleshed-out characters puts a unique spin on an old tale. And RJ did every step of the journey but the part where the princess falls for the rogue.

The animosity.
The cat-fighting.
The grudging respect for each other.
The rogue's sacrifice. (In this case, offering Elayne the medallion)
The separation.
All that's left is for Mat to get to Caemlyn so Elayne can jump his bones.

SauceyBlueConfetti
04-25-2014, 09:34 AM
Dav, you never joined my faction. :D:p Of course Seeker did, he is my brother from another mother.
Mat + Elayne Faction (http://www.theoryland.com/factions.php?func=4&rec=81)

I wish I could recall what year that was. It was on the Yuku boards, so it had to be prior to 2007?


Coming full circle now, though, I think Mat was always intended to be Elayne's brother. He was the smarter, more loyal, more loved version of her two (actual) incredibly flawed siblings.

Think about it.

He is Galad. He does what is right. Even against his better judgement, he does the right thing.

He is Gawyn. He is the protector of the realms. All of them.

He is Galad. He is good looking, and all women fall for his charms.

He is Gawyn. He loves someone who is very, very powerful, and struggles to find his own place in her world.

He is Galad. He is instinctively good militarily (yes, yes, he had help). Men believe in him as a leader, even when he himself does not.

He is Gawyn. He is foolish.


He is all of these things, but BETTER at them. The fight at the Warder training grounds in Tar Valon between the three suddenly brings it clear. Mat is the epitome of what the others WANT and SHOULD be. He defeats them easily as he is the truer version.

So yeah, while I still think it would have worked, RJ was right in his choices. Blah. But I agree, 3 days a romance was stupid. That was always an issue for me.

I will always love Mat.

Davian93
04-25-2014, 09:41 AM
Mat and Elayne...oh what could have been.

Oh, joined the faction...never noticed it before. In my defense, I've only been around for 11 years.

SauceyBlueConfetti
04-25-2014, 09:51 AM
In my defense, I've only been around for 11 years.

Noob. :D

GonzoTheGreat
04-25-2014, 10:36 AM
So yeah, while I still think it would have worked, RJ was right in his choices. Blah. But I agree, 3 days a romance was stupid. That was always an issue for me.
It is possible that they also had some time (maybe a whole ten minutes, perhaps a bit less) in Falme. True, Rand was unconscious at the time, but I don't see where that makes a significant difference.

fionwe1987
04-25-2014, 11:05 AM
Oh, I disagree.
...
All that's left is for Mat to get to Caemlyn so Elayne can jump his bones.

The problem in this story is Mat's issues with the One Power. They're a fundamental part of who he is. And I don't see how he gets past those believably and becomes romantically involved with someone who is a very flashy channeler. That tension worked well, and their overcoming it to be friends was good. I just don't see it moving past that to become romance without fundamentally changing him.

Seeker
04-25-2014, 01:53 PM
Dav, you never joined my faction. :D:p Of course Seeker did, he is my brother from another mother.
Mat + Elayne Faction (http://www.theoryland.com/factions.php?func=4&rec=81)

I wish I could recall what year that was. It was on the Yuku boards, so it had to be prior to 2007?


Coming full circle now, though, I think Mat was always intended to be Elayne's brother. He was the smarter, more loyal, more loved version of her two (actual) incredibly flawed siblings.

Think about it.

He is Galad. He does what is right. Even against his better judgement, he does the right thing.

He is Gawyn. He is the protector of the realms. All of them.

He is Galad. He is good looking, and all women fall for his charms.

He is Gawyn. He loves someone who is very, very powerful, and struggles to find his own place in her world.

He is Galad. He is instinctively good militarily (yes, yes, he had help). Men believe in him as a leader, even when he himself does not.

He is Gawyn. He is foolish.


He is all of these things, but BETTER at them. The fight at the Warder training grounds in Tar Valon between the three suddenly brings it clear. Mat is the epitome of what the others WANT and SHOULD be. He defeats them easily as he is the truer version.

So yeah, while I still think it would have worked, RJ was right in his choices. Blah. But I agree, 3 days a romance was stupid. That was always an issue for me.

I will always love Mat.

It was 2004. I was the one who talked you into making the faction. You were an elder and I a youngling (after having spent five years as a lurker). So, I couldn't make factions yet.

And I disagree.

All of RJ's men are a bit excessively handsome and all of them produce copious amounts of swoonage. That Mat has this in common with Galad was not meant to be a subtext of some kind. As for Mat being protector of the realm, I think you've lost me there. What exactly did he do to protect Andor specifically? (The Dragons?) If you're going to say he's protector of the whole world, then isn't that more Rand's role?

Seeker
04-25-2014, 01:57 PM
The problem in this story is Mat's issues with the One Power. They're a fundamental part of who he is. And I don't see how he gets past those believably and becomes romantically involved with someone who is a very flashy channeler. That tension worked well, and their overcoming it to be friends was good. I just don't see it moving past that to become romance without fundamentally changing him.

Mat's character arc has always been leading to him re-evaluate his views on channelers. I don't see this being a problem.

fionwe1987
04-25-2014, 05:32 PM
Mat's character arc has always been leading to him re-evaluate his views on channelers. I don't see this being a problem.
But to still be suspicious of them. The point of Mat, and the Seanchan (in a much more extreme way), is to explore the very believable issue people have trusting channelers. Mat is kind of the midpoint between Tuon and the channelers. He doesn't like the damane system, and when he could, he freed hundreds of Sea Folk damane. At the same time, he can't really stand channelers. I don't see him marrying Elayne and still having issues with channelers, however.

Seeker
04-25-2014, 06:16 PM
Obviously his attitudes would need to change a bit. But then, his attitudes DID change between the beginning of the series and the end. Mat is not distrustful of channelers just because they're channelers. He's distrustful of power, period. Whether it's nobles, Aes Sedai or even or armies that he doesn't command, Mat does not think that human beings can be trusted to use power responsibly. He accepts the burden of leadership for no other reason than that he thinks everyone else will screw it up.

Along the ways, he's had to make exceptions, but the key is that they are exceptions. Whether it's Elayne as Queen, Egwene as Amyrlin, or Tuon as Empress, Mat trusts these people because they've proven to him that they can handle power responsibly. He's still suspicious. You might notice that Mat butts heads with Tuon frequently, that he argues with her and even warns Min not to get too close. He may love Tuon but he certainly doesn't trust her completely. It wasn't a hindrance in that relationship, it wouldn't be a hindrance with Elayne. In fact, I think he would trust Elayne a lot more than he trusts Tuon.

It is possible for him to trust Elayne in particular while remaining skeptical of powerful people in general.

GonzoTheGreat
04-26-2014, 04:37 AM
Besides, Elayne's gonna burn herself out any time now, in a botched ter'angreal-making experiment. After that her channeling would no longer be an issue.

David Selig
04-26-2014, 06:08 AM
But to still be suspicious of them. The point of Mat, and the Seanchan (in a much more extreme way), is to explore the very believable issue people have trusting channelers. Mat is kind of the midpoint between Tuon and the channelers. He doesn't like the damane system, and when he could, he freed hundreds of Sea Folk damane. At the same time, he can't really stand channelers. I don't see him marrying Elayne and still having issues with channelers, however.
For someone who claims that he can't stand channellers, Mat spent an awful lot of time helping, saving and working for them. He actually came to like Elayne as a friend towards the end, so I don't see him falling in love with her to be so unlikely. He claims that he hates haughty nobles too yet he fell in love with the most haughty and most powerful noblewoman in the world.

Rand al'Fain
04-29-2014, 08:15 PM
For someone who claims that he can't stand channellers, Mat spent an awful lot of time helping, saving and working for them. He actually came to like Elayne as a friend towards the end, so I don't see him falling in love with her to be so unlikely. He claims that he hates haughty nobles too yet he fell in love with the most haughty and most powerful noblewoman in the world.

To be fair to Tuon, she's stuck with centuries of tradition and playing a version of the Game of Houses that makes Cairhein look like the Borderlands. And if she showed any sign of weakness to political opponents like Galgan, they would strike. But she's shown to be adaptive, intelligent, and not throw herself into needless danger by thinking things through. And when presented with things that contradict what she "knew" before hand (Trollocs and Myrdraal for example) she considers and changes things.

Elayne, whether by her own will or not, is like the Princess Peach of Randland, in that she keeps getting captured. While not a bad ruler and not stupid, she doesn't really have common sense up to a certain point.

And I just don't see that Mat-Elayne thing beyond friends (he's still wary around channelers, even with his ter'angral), plus with marrying Tuon and yet being close friends with Aes Sedai and other channelers, he becomes a bridge for future negotiations between the Seanchan Empire and pro-channeler nations (like Andor).