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Crumb
05-03-2014, 06:20 AM
I'm new here but I'm just curious who everyone's favorite character is, and who they hated the most of the entire series. I despised Egwene because I felt like she was becoming just what she hated. She was turning the White Tower into a force of power hunger and built on the backs of others just like the Seanchan (part of me always hoped Egwene's armies and the Seanchan would take each other out). Lan and Moiraine were my favorite characters. Lan was an ultimate good guy from beginning to end and I think Moiraine grew the most of any character save maybe Rand, throughout the series.

Zombie Sammael
05-03-2014, 07:16 AM
These kind of threads almost inevitably turn into Egwene-bashing, which then leads to Egwene-arguments when her fans come out to defend her. Thankfully, we have a quarantine for that.

That said, my favourite was Egwene and my most hated was Valan Luca.

fionwe1987
05-03-2014, 12:58 PM
Egwene was my favorite to read about. Most despised was probably either Luca or Sevanna. Both of them bored me to tears.

Seeker
05-03-2014, 02:24 PM
I think in the context of the discussion, he wants us to keep to the main characters.

I think my favorite character was Min. My most hated was Nyegwelaynda. Because these four characters felt to me like an amorphous blob of anti-feminist stereotypes and not four distinct people.

Crumb
05-03-2014, 10:20 PM
Nynaeve I liked, Elayne I could take her or leave her, sometimes she was great other times not so much, Aviendha I thought was kind of a tough warrior, I didn't really see them as anti feminist. I also thought Taim was a good bad guy, ya loved to hate him.

Rand al'Fain
05-04-2014, 12:50 AM
Favorite? Mat. He brought a sense of humor to the series (intentional or not), and almost always a pleasure to read. The Sanderson Mat was different, but was still alright. Lan is a close second. Lost pretty much everything before he could walk and always felt his fate was to eventually ride into the Blight swinging his sword. But he never shirked from helping those closest to him and even headed straight for Damodred with his only purpose to kill the Forsaken, even if it cost him his life.

Hated, Egwene/Elaida. Elaida at the beginning seemed imposing and clever and dangerous, but by the time she gets kidnapped, she's stupid, power hungry, and lost all sense (as did most Aes Sedai around her). Egwene, was a haughty character from the get go. Always either trying to prove she's the best or control others, or berating one man or another for helping her when she needed it without her having to ask (that control thing). During the whole White Tower prisoner arc, she benefited from other Aes Sedai catching Elaida's stupidity.

Everyone else I liked to one degree or another, or was neutral too.

fionwe1987
05-04-2014, 03:19 AM
or berating one man or another for helping her when she needed it without her having to ask (that control thing).

Just wanted to point out that many women would do the same in real life too, and they're right to. Helping someone "because they need it" without asking them is condescending.

GonzoTheGreat
05-04-2014, 04:31 AM
Elaida at the beginning seemed imposing and clever and dangerous, but by the time she gets kidnapped, she's stupid, power hungry, and lost all sense (as did most Aes Sedai around her).
In Elaida's defense: her sense got eaten by Padan Fain, as also happened to Pedron Niall. Of course, Niall lacked the supposed AS protection against that kind of mental infection, but I suspect that like so many AS ideas, this protection was more superstition than reality.

Seeker
05-04-2014, 12:13 PM
Just wanted to point out that many women would do the same in real life too, and they're right to. Helping someone "because they need it" without asking them is condescending.


Uh, no it's not... especially if we're thinking about Mat saving their lives.

fionwe1987
05-04-2014, 12:56 PM
Uh, no it's not... especially if we're thinking about Mat saving their lives.
No, I was talking about Salidar, where Mar walks in to Egwene's study, says she needs to be saved, and he's going to do the saving, whether she liked it or not.

Seeker
05-04-2014, 01:16 PM
Oh that. Yeah, Mat was a dick there.

Rand al'Fain
05-05-2014, 10:18 AM
You realize I meant when it actually needed saving? Tear, when they were captured by Black Ajah, Gawyn saving her from assassins (took nearly dying literally in her arms for her to thank him) and pointing out it might not be channelers attacking Aes Sedai (and getting told off for it), etc.

GonzoTheGreat
05-05-2014, 11:00 AM
Just wanted to point out that many women would do the same in real life too, and they're right to. Helping someone "because they need it" without asking them is condescending.
I guess that instead of trying to go and help Egwene when she was a damane in Falme, Rand should have petitioned the Seanchan for permission to ask her for permission to try to save her.
And when E,E&N had been captured by those bandits who were going to sell them to the Fades, Aviendha and friends should have waited with their rescue attempt until after they could ask whether or not the three girls actually wanted to be rescued.

Of course, this "don't rescue without permission" rule does not apply to males, so when the Asha'man burst into Taim's "turn Logain party" without asking Logain, that was all right.

fionwe1987
05-05-2014, 11:54 AM
You realize I meant when it actually needed saving? Tear, when they were captured by Black Ajah,
Was that about Mat not asking permission? Or him objecting to their treatment of Amico? Either way, of the three, Egwene get's the least grief from me for this because she was actually heavily injured and just recently Healed, and she made up for it in TSR by revealing what she knew about the Finn Doorway to Mat.
Gawyn saving her from assassins (took nearly dying literally in her arms for her to thank him) and pointing out it might not be channelers attacking Aes Sedai (and getting told off for it), etc.
You do realize that IF Gawyn had followed orders and not interrupted, he trap would have caught a Bloodknife and not Gawyn himself, right? Instead of capturing the perpetrator, what she got was Gawyn faffing about some mysterious shadow with a sword after he was embarrassingly caught in her trap while trying to sneak in.

That she didn't believe him at that point and at least consider that there could be two sets of assassins is a point taken from her, but her original insistence that he let her deal with the situation was correct. It would have meant she'd have had a captive bloodknife to question, instead of vague reports from an unreliable source.

GonzoTheGreat
05-05-2014, 12:16 PM
I'm not sure it would be all that easy to catch a Bloodknife. If it had been, then Demandred would've had Gawyn strung up fairly quickly with the OP, instead of wasting time on chopping him to pieces with a sword.
Plus, we're not sure that the Bloodknife that Gawyn saw the first time was the only one skulking around Egwene's bedroom. If there had been two, then the second would still have killed her even if the first one had been caught.

fionwe1987
05-05-2014, 12:24 PM
I'm not sure it would be all that easy to catch a Bloodknife. If it had been, then Demandred would've had Gawyn strung up fairly quickly with the OP, instead of wasting time on chopping him to pieces with a sword.
It is pretty well established he wanted to waste time. He found it entertaining to fight with his sword.

The entire point of bloodknives is that they can sneak around and kill channelers before they can defend themselves. There's no hint they're immune to the power.
Plus, we're not sure that the Bloodknife that Gawyn saw the first time was the only one skulking around Egwene's bedroom. If there had been two, then the second would still have killed her even if the first one had been caught.
So Egwene would capture one and assume only one was in the Tower??

Seeker
05-05-2014, 03:02 PM
It is pretty well established he wanted to waste time. He found it entertaining to fight with his sword.

The entire point of bloodknives is that they can sneak around and kill channelers before they can defend themselves. There's no hint they're immune to the power.

So Egwene would capture one and assume only one was in the Tower??

Thank you. I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that Gawyn was in the wrong, not Egwene. He defied her in the most public way possible because he believed that he knew better than she did, and that as the big strapping man, it was his job to protect her. The whole Gawyn subplot is actually kind of sexist - and this time, Brandon gets the debit for that - because if Egwene had been a male commanding officer, I have no doubt that Gawyn would have followed orders. Even when he learns that he had to respect her authority, the story still plays out as if we're supposed to feel sorry for poor spurned Gawyn who was right all along.

Ask yourself this: if Bryne had given Gawyn instructions, which Gawyn then disobeyed, and the result was a botched military operation, would we still feel sorry for Gawyn?

Uno
05-05-2014, 03:45 PM
Even when he learns that he had to respect her authority, the story still plays out as if we're supposed to feel sorry for poor spurned Gawyn who was right all along.

I can't imagine anyone that would be inclined to think that Gawyn was ever right about anything he did. Forget about his obsession with blaming Rand for his mother's rumoured death: What really bugs me is his persistent determination not to do his duty in any way. He was supposed to help his sister, as was his role as First Prince of the Sword, but instead he made himself the leader of a band of shiftless youths with swords and proceeded to hang around with them, getting nothing useful done. Once he tired of that, he rather callously abandoned those boys to their own devices and defected to the other side of the conflict in which they were more or less involved. He eventually becomes Egwene's warder, but doesn't even stick with that role, electing instead to finally go to his sister, when she no longer needed his help. Having returned to Egwene, he still decides to go off on his own in the middle of the Last Battle, and we all know how this went.

His was a career of dereliction of duty and impulsive behavior that did few people much good--himself included.

fionwe1987
05-05-2014, 04:11 PM
Thank you. I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that Gawyn was in the wrong, not Egwene. He defied her in the most public way possible because he believed that he knew better than she did, and that as the big strapping man, it was his job to protect her. The whole Gawyn subplot is actually kind of sexist - and this time, Brandon gets the debit for that - because if Egwene had been a male commanding officer, I have no doubt that Gawyn would have followed orders. Even when he learns that he had to respect her authority, the story still plays out as if we're supposed to feel sorry for poor spurned Gawyn who was right all along.

Ask yourself this: if Bryne had given Gawyn instructions, which Gawyn then disobeyed, and the result was a botched military operation, would we still feel sorry for Gawyn?
Glad I'm not the only one who feels this way. And it isn't even the first time he's done this. He helped Siuan do the same thing in tGS, and despite (or maybe because of) Egwene's very mild reaction at that point (Siuan went straight back into being in Egwene's innermost circle), he decided he'd break through boundaries again.

Frankly, I found it very unrealistic that Egwene gave Gawyn any freedom at all during the Last Battle, where he promptly betrayed her trust again, getting himself killed, putting her out of action for a time, and ultimately putting her in a position where she had to kill herself to save the world.

Frankly, I wish Silviana had snuck up on Gawyn at the start of the Last Battle, tied him up, opened a Gateway, and sent him to the Land of Madmen where he belongs.

Seeker
05-05-2014, 04:15 PM
I can't imagine anyone that would be inclined to think that Gawyn was ever right about anything he did. Forget about his obsession with blaming Rand for his mother's rumoured death: What really bugs me is his persistent determination not to do his duty in any way. He was supposed to help his sister, as was his role as First Prince of the Sword, but instead he made himself the leader of a band of shiftless youths with swords and proceeded to hang around with them, getting nothing useful done. Once he tired of that, he rather callously abandoned those boys to their own devices and defected to the other side of the conflict in which they were more or less involved. He eventually becomes Egwene's warder, but doesn't even stick with that role, electing instead to finally go to his sister, when she no longer needed his help. Having returned to Egwene, he still decides to go off on his own in the middle of the Last Battle, and we all know how this went.

His was a career of dereliction of duty and impulsive behavior that did few people much good--himself included.

Yup, Gawyn sucks. The only reason he didn't get my vote for most hated is that he isn't s main charger l character

fionwe1987
05-05-2014, 04:16 PM
The whole Gawyn subplot is actually kind of sexist
Wanted to address this separately:

Not only was it sexist, typical reader reaction to it kind of is too. How many times has Rand refused to let women risk themselves to save his bacon, and paid for it?

Seeker
05-05-2014, 05:34 PM
Indeed.

Also, given the information Egwene had at the time, the most likely culprit was Mesaana, and as she rightly pointed out, what was Gawyn going to do against a Forsaken?

This is where people point out that Egwene ended up being wrong, and therefore that makes her arrogant. To them, I say, there is a difference between being wrong and being arrogant. Based on the evidence she had, Mesaaana was the likely culprit. It's not like she came to that conclusion off the top of her head. The circumstantial evidence that gateways would leave a mark on the carpet and no such mark existed wouldn't have convinced me either. Not when I'm well aware of the different ways gateways can be used.


This stupid plot is one of the areas where Brandon disappointed me.

David Selig
05-05-2014, 06:30 PM
Indeed.

Also, given the information Egwene had at the time, the most likely culprit was Mesaana, and as she rightly pointed out, what was Gawyn going to do against a Forsaken?

This is where people point out that Egwene ended up being wrong, and therefore that makes her arrogant. To them, I say, there is a difference between being wrong and being arrogant. Based on the evidence she had, Mesaaana was the likely culprit. It's not like she came to that conclusion off the top of her head. The circumstantial evidence that gateways would leave a mark on the carpet and no such mark existed wouldn't have convinced me either. Not when I'm well aware of the different ways gateways can be used.

The fact that she suspected Mesaana is what made her plan so silly and arrogant. As if a few wards would have helped her against a Forsaken. Mesaana could easily blast the whole apartment into oblivion and the wards wouldn't have helped any.

Gawyn is an arrogant idiot, but Egwene's plan was plenty stupid too.

fionwe1987
05-05-2014, 07:15 PM
The fact that she suspected Mesaana is what made her plan so silly and arrogant. As if a few wards would have helped her against a Forsaken. Mesaana could easily blast the whole apartment into oblivion and the wards wouldn't have helped any.
By that yardstick, Egwene should constantly expect Mesaana to gate in and start a massive OP duel.

The entire plan was predicated on the assumption that Mesaana wouldn't exactly want to advertise herself by coming in guns blazing. The whole point of Mesaana's disguise was that she wanted to move in the shadows, not advertise her presence. A massive explosion in the Amyrlin's study would definitely be counter to that.

Further, we don't know what the wards did. We know there are wards that can trap a channeler who extends any weave towards it, and Egwene's certainly seems to have been of that kind from her description.

Gawyn is an arrogant idiot, but Egwene's plan was plenty stupid too.
Not really. It was "stupid" in that it was fairly straightforward. Egwene ensured reduced security around her rooms, letting it stand as an open invitation to Mesaana. Her inverted wards were something she counted on Mesaana to dismiss, and that was reasonable since there's no reason for a Foresaken to expect much from "barely trained girls". If Mesaana was so moronic as to not even suspect the extent of Egwene's abilities in Tel'aran'rhiod, something that is well known among the Rebels and the Tower, why would she suspect Egwene can lay wards of any great skill?

fionwe1987
05-05-2014, 07:17 PM
This stupid plot is one of the areas where Brandon disappointed me.
Oh definitely. The entire plot was artificial and only existed to add heft to Egwene's story in ToM. As was that stupid scene in the Hall. Both were really useless, and did nothing for the story. If anything, they actively harmed it.

Seeker
05-05-2014, 07:45 PM
Oh definitely. The entire plot was artificial and only existed to add heft to Egwene's story in ToM. As was that stupid scene in the Hall. Both were really useless, and did nothing for the story. If anything, they actively harmed it.

What motion are we standing for?

An important one.

Then I'll stand too!

*facepalm*

Really, Brandon? That's the best you've got?

Yeah... Right there with you, buddy. As to Egwene's plan being stupid, well yes... it is stupid in the sense that Mesaana could just open a gateway and set off a huge explosion. But as I noted in this thread ( http://theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=8259 ), this series has a long history of giving its villains insane amounts of power, and then failing to have them capitalize on the obvious advantages. So by this point, it's precedent that we should just assume the forsaken will do things the stupidest way possible.

fionwe1987
05-05-2014, 08:08 PM
What motion are we standing for?

An important one.

Then I'll stand too!

*facepalm*

Really, Brandon? That's the best you've got?

Yeah... Right there with you, buddy.
Yeah. The BA hunters were shown to be such total lackeys at this point. Its part of the larger trend of Brandon being unable to write a scene where two people le are clever. One has to trump the other
.

Seeker
05-05-2014, 08:43 PM
Oh there are lots of examples of people being clever in the Brandon books. This, sadly, wasn't one of them. How in God's name does it make sense for a woman whose job is to analyze legislature to agree to support a motion without even knowing what it is? This is called Idiot Plot

GonzoTheGreat
05-06-2014, 05:20 AM
Thank you. I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that Gawyn was in the wrong, not Egwene. He defied her in the most public way possible because he believed that he knew better than she did, and that as the big strapping man, it was his job to protect her. The whole Gawyn subplot is actually kind of sexist - and this time, Brandon gets the debit for that - because if Egwene had been a male commanding officer, I have no doubt that Gawyn would have followed orders. Even when he learns that he had to respect her authority, the story still plays out as if we're supposed to feel sorry for poor spurned Gawyn who was right all along.

Ask yourself this: if Bryne had given Gawyn instructions, which Gawyn then disobeyed, and the result was a botched military operation, would we still feel sorry for Gawyn?
I dunno. If Gawyn had given Bryne orders, Bryne had ignored that and the result had been some botched operation, would Bryne have been to blame?

Gawyn was not under Bryne's command. And, because Egwene refused to make him her Warder, he was not under Egwene's command either, except in a sort of general "every civilian in Tar Valon is under the Amyrlin's command" way.

There's a clear and pertinent analog:
In the Last Battle, Uno was given instructions by Bryne, disobeyed them (because factors which Bryne had ignored interfered) and the result was a botched military operation. Was Uno responsible for that mess, or is it more reasonable to put the blame on the one who ignored the possibility of being wrong and gave orders on the assumption of personal omniscience?

In the Egwene-Gawyn case, Egwene very deliberately ignored all signs that she was wrong and made all her preparations based on the assumption that her enemies would not surprise* her. Gawyn had the sense to consider the possibility their enemy might act in an unexpected way, and he was right. Yes, I agree that he should have followed orders and let Egwene die, but that's mostly based on my personal assessment of Egwene, not on what would have been the best military option for them.

* Suppose that she had been right and it had been Mesaana. Suppose further that Gawyn hadn't interfered and Mesaana had walked into the trap. Then finally suppose that Mesaana had had a fox head ter'angreal, which immediately dissolved the trap as soon as it touched her. Then what? Egwene would've been surprised, that's what would have happened.

Davian93
05-06-2014, 08:05 AM
How about...they were both idiots and they both died because of it.

Perfect couple really. The only thing that would have made Gawyn's death better would have been him tripping on a tree root on his rush up to Demandred and then impaling himself on his own sword as he fell.

GonzoTheGreat
05-06-2014, 08:52 AM
How about...they were both idiots and they both died because of it.
True, I suppose, but where's the fun if we all get along with each other by agreeing?

Hugh the Hand
05-06-2014, 08:59 AM
I kinda disagree about the scene in the hall.

I think it shows that the BA hunters and Egwene knew what was coming and they basically knew that if one or more of them got there late, they needed a way to know to stand or sit.

It was a funny scene and scenes like that are important when you are dealing with serious books, if to do nothing else but to break up the tension. I mean we cannot have Mat doing all the comic relief.

Seeker
05-06-2014, 03:12 PM
In the Egwene-Gawyn case, Egwene very deliberately ignored all signs that she was wrong and made all her preparations based on the assumption that her enemies would not surprise* herty their enemy might act in an unexpecte. Gawyn had the sense to consider the possibilid way, and he was right. Yes, I agree that he should have followed orders and let Egwene die, but that's mostly based on my personal assessment of Egwene, not on what would have been the best military option for them.

I'm not going to speak to the Uno issue because I think it's off topic.

There was no evidence that Egwene was wrong. She can't ignore evidence that doesn't exist. Prior to his getting caught in the trap, Gawyn did not have the knife, so at that time - by his own admission - all he had was supposition. His argument was that if the assassin got in via a gateway, there should be a visible scar on the floor. There was no visible scar, therefore no gateway. Egwene rightfully dismissed this because, as she pointed out, it's quite easy to make a gateway that opens several inches above the floor. We even saw as much twice in Knife of Dreams, when Rand makes one into the Heart of the Stone when Logain makes one onto the deck of Zaida's ship and lifts it up a few inches to avoid scratching the wood. Shalon then murmurs "Yes, I can see how to do that."

This simple fact alone is not evidence of anything. The potential to be wrong exists in every situation. You're never going to be all-knowing. You have to make decisions based on the available evidence and accept that you just might be wrong in the end. That's exactly what Egwene did.

Yes soldiers have to analyze orders and adjust for new information rather than blindly following each order to the letter. But Gawyn didn't have any new information; he had a lot of supposition and a lot of angsty macho crap. The whole point of the story is that Gawyn goes to talk to his sister and learns that sometimes he needs to defer to a woman. (Gasp!)

Egwene heard him out, judged that his argument was not strong enough to merit a change to her plans and then went forward with the plan, which is exactly what a leader is supposed to do. She wasn't behaving like some ham-fisted autocrat. She listened and then made a decision.

To quote Scientific American: "there is a difference between prejudice and postjudice." Egwene made a decision after carefully considering the facts. Gawyn made a decision based on a knee-jerk gut reaction that was mostly the result of sexist attitudes.

* Suppose that she had been right and it had been Mesaana. Suppose further that Gawyn hadn't interfered and Mesaana had walked into the trap. Then finally suppose that Mesaana had had a fox head ter'angreal, which immediately dissolved the trap as soon as it touched her. Then what? Egwene would've been surprised, that's what would have happened.

While we're at it, why don't we suppose that Mesaana also had particle beam weapons left over from a cache of supplies from the Age of Legends. Heat seeking combat drones and neurotoxin. There is no plan that can anticipate every possible contingency. You plan for what your intelligence says is most likely, not for every possible thing that might happen. Based on what she knew, Egwene's plan was a good one.

Seeker
05-06-2014, 03:51 PM
I kinda disagree about the scene in the hall.

I think it shows that the BA hunters and Egwene knew what was coming and they basically knew that if one or more of them got there late, they needed a way to know to stand or sit.

It was a funny scene and scenes like that are important when you are dealing with serious books, if to do nothing else but to break up the tension. I mean we cannot have Mat doing all the comic relief.

Oh, you think that "An important one" was code for "yes, this meets with our approval."

Maybe, but you need a scene that explains as much for it to not read like idiot plot.

Seeker
05-06-2014, 04:06 PM
Just so we're clear, I loathed Egwene from pretty much the start of the first book all the way to the Gathering Storm (when she suddenly became competent and likeable).

I'm not an Egwene fan. Not at all. So, I'm not defending her actions because of some deep love of the character. I'm defending them because they make sense in the context.

Uno
05-06-2014, 07:29 PM
As for me, when I first started reading WOT--and was a lot younger than what I am now--I found the older characters annoying and identified with the young protagonists. Now, it's the other way around. I think my favourite character is Nynaeve, who, while not that much older than Rand et al., gave off a certain big sister vibe and at least tried to keep the know-it-all kids out of trouble to the best of her abilities.

Seeker
05-06-2014, 07:56 PM
As for me, when I first started reading WOT--and was a lot younger than what I am now--I found the older characters annoying and identified with the young protagonists. Now, it's the other way around. I think my favourite character is Nynaeve, who, while not that much older than Rand et al., gave off a certain big sister vibe and at least tried to keep the know-it-all kids out of trouble to the best of her abilities.

I loathed Nynaeve until the start of Gathering Storm when she suddenly became competent and likeable.

fionwe1987
05-06-2014, 08:01 PM
I loathed Nynaeve until the start of Gathering Storm when she suddenly became competent and likeable.
You said the same about Egwene. And will say the same about Elayne too, I suspect. I disagree. There's a steady arc to each of these people reaching the point where they became competent/likable (dunno if Elayne ever became competent. She always showed flashes of it, interspersed with moments of what can only be termed insanity).

Seeker
05-06-2014, 08:08 PM
You suspect correctly, except with Elayne, it's "until Towers of Midnight."

Uno
05-06-2014, 08:10 PM
Well, I'm not saying Nynaeve was always right--maybe not even right most of the time--but I think her heart was in the right place all along. At least that's how I read the character.

GonzoTheGreat
05-07-2014, 05:46 AM
I'm not going to speak to the Uno issue because I think it's off topic.True, but then, that was the point of raising the "should Gawyn obey Bryne" question, wasn't it?

There was no evidence that Egwene was wrong. She can't ignore evidence that doesn't exist. Prior to his getting caught in the trap, Gawyn did not have the knife, so at that time - by his own admission - all he had was supposition. His argument was that if the assassin got in via a gateway, there should be a visible scar on the floor. There was no visible scar, therefore no gateway. Egwene rightfully dismissed this because, as she pointed out, it's quite easy to make a gateway that opens several inches above the floor. We even saw as much twice in Knife of Dreams, when Rand makes one into the Heart of the Stone when Logain makes one onto the deck of Zaida's ship and lifts it up a few inches to avoid scratching the wood. Shalon then murmurs "Yes, I can see how to do that."
At that point, Gawyn also has the evidence that every one of then four killed AS had been killed with knives, not with the OP. That suggests to him that it could be the work of a Gray Man or some other kind of DF. Egwene dismisses this possibility, not because she has some evidence against it, but merely because it does not suit her preconceptions. Egwene chides Gawyn for not accepting what she wants to believe over what is actually real.

When Gawyn got caught in the trap, he knew for a fact that Egwene was wrong about the identity of the killer, even though he did not know at the time who Egwene thought it was. She believed it was a woman, but he knew that it was a man. (Men and women do not walk quite the same way, because of differences in hip structure. That also affects how we fight, which is something Gawyn would have noticed while fighting his opponent.)
He also knew that the doors of the killed AS had been forced open, and he knew (because he'd just opened it) that Egwene's door was not locked shut.

This simple fact alone is not evidence of anything. The potential to be wrong exists in every situation. You're never going to be all-knowing. You have to make decisions based on the available evidence and accept that you just might be wrong in the end. That's exactly what Egwene did.
Actually, no, that is precisely what she did not do, and what is the issue here. Egwene was proven to be wrong, but ignored that. In order to keep up her idea she had to ignore a bunch of evidence, so that is what she did. Gawyn did not ignore that evidence and that is why he reached another conclusion than Egwene did.

Yes soldiers have to analyze orders and adjust for new information rather than blindly following each order to the letter. But Gawyn didn't have any new information; he had a lot of supposition and a lot of angsty macho crap. The whole point of the story is that Gawyn goes to talk to his sister and learns that sometimes he needs to defer to a woman. (Gasp!)
All right, when it comes to the new information that he didn't have:
-Can you prove that Gawyn did not know that the one he fought was a man rather than (as Egwene steadfastly maintained) a woman?
-Can you prove that Gawyn did not know about the Bloodknife he discovered right outside Egwene's apartment, even after he'd discovered that assassin there?
-Can you prove that Gawyn did not know about the dark clothing worn by these assassins, which would not be something that Mesaana would do (because it would make her stand out rather than blend into the shadows), even when we know full well that he did know about that?

The only way in which you can keep up the "Gawyn didn't know anything that contradicted Egwene's assumptions" is by doing the same thing that Egwene did: ignore all evidence and pretend that makes it disappear.

Egwene heard him out, judged that his argument was not strong enough to merit a change to her plans and then went forward with the plan, which is exactly what a leader is supposed to do. She wasn't behaving like some ham-fisted autocrat. She listened and then made a decision.
True. And it shows precisely what the weakness is of letting leaders decide for others: if those leaders are wrong (as Egwene was here) then the followers either suffer the consequences of the wrong decision or they get blamed for disobedience.

To quote Scientific American: "there is a difference between prejudice and postjudice." Egwene made a decision after carefully considering the facts. Gawyn made a decision based on a knee-jerk gut reaction that was mostly the result of sexist attitudes.
And, just a bit, of discovering enemy forces right in the middle of the WT, seemingly either about to attack the Amyrlin or as rear guard for a party that is already carrying out such an attack.

While we're at it, why don't we suppose that Mesaana also had particle beam weapons left over from a cache of supplies from the Age of Legends. Heat seeking combat drones and neurotoxin. There is no plan that can anticipate every possible contingency. You plan for what your intelligence says is most likely, not for every possible thing that might happen. Based on what she knew, Egwene's plan was a good one.
Egwene did not have any reason to believe such particle beam weapons were a serious possibility. But she did have reason to believe that something like Mat's ter'angreal could exist. And, as you may have forgotten, Mat isn't the only one with such a thing: Cadsuane also has one. It is not at all far fetched to consider the possibility that Mesaana could also have something that would let her detect or disarm (or both) weaves. If nothing else, she could have simply used a Fade as weave detector. That wouldn't have told her what the trap would do, but it would have warned her that there was something there to avoid.

Actually, a warded Fade would make a good candidate for the killings that had been done, too, so this is not at all an outrageous option.

fionwe1987
05-07-2014, 09:57 AM
I'll ask a simple question: Given that Egwene is getting all this grief for not anticipating all sorts of things, why is it that no one ever has done the same for Rand. Why is it not pointed out as idiotic that Rand didn't consider that "Tuon" would be a Foresaken in disguise? After all, he's seen Foresaken in disguise. He's seen them place themselves in important positions. He should be suspecting every new person he meets as a potential Foresaken, actually. He didn't and therefore lost his limb, and eventually his sanity. :rolleyes:

GonzoTheGreat
05-07-2014, 10:14 AM
Rand overlooked things, true. But Egwene overlooked something, berated Gawyn when he pointed it out, ignored the possibility after it was pointed out, and then got angry at Gawyn when he did not assume that what was real could be ignored.

A better Rand example would be the Callandor issue. There he overlooked the fact that the thing had a flaw. Then, when it was pointed out to him, he actually took that into consideration and adjusted his plans accordingly.

Rand did ignore the warnings about Taim. But he hasn't berated anyone for being concerned about Taim, nor has he ordered anyone to totally ignore the possibility that Taim might be untrustworthy. Instead, he gambled that Taim wouldn't turn out to be too big a problem, and that gamble paid off (with some collateral damage, admittedly).
If Egwene had taken a similar approach, then she might have told Gawyn "perhaps you're right, but I don't have time for that so I will simply ignore it". Given that Gawyn didn't have any official duties anyway at the time, having him spent time guarding the Amyrlin shouldn't have been a problem. And if Mesaana had been aiming for Egwene, then Gawyn wouldn't even have been a distraction for her; she would not have engaged in a sword duel with him as Demandred did.

Davian93
05-07-2014, 11:40 AM
Rand didnt ignore Taim but he was simply too terrified on how to act about it. He knew from the start (at least part of him) that Taim was bad but he kept burying that issue on his pile of work because he simply didnt have time.

Massive blunder on his part overall but it wasnt due to his not realizing the issue (his POVs are pretty clear on that).

Egwene was just deliberately stupid in the final book or two on that. However, consider that Gawyn was the source of this and Gawyn (as Egwene knew) was pretty much a big dumb idiot.

GonzoTheGreat
05-07-2014, 12:17 PM
Egwene was just deliberately stupid in the final book or two on that. However, consider that Gawyn was the source of this and Gawyn (as Egwene knew) was pretty much a big dumb idiot.
Fair point, this. She knew he was stupid enough to love her. :D

Seeker
05-07-2014, 12:36 PM
I'm going to reply quickly, Gonzo. Gawyn asks "why use a knife" several times and every person he talks to - including Sleete - replies with "Because using the Power would alert the victim and other sisters." That said, it's possible Mesaana sent a Gray Man. Egwene says as much. Her trap would have caught a Gray Man. So Gawyn is still a douche.

And I reread the scene. She did not berate him; she told him she needed him to respect her station, and when he bitched and moaned, she told him this was why she didn't trust him. All reasonable reactions.

Crumb
05-07-2014, 09:51 PM
Simple enough to me, Gawyn and Egwene are awful and fit together as a couple. I really liked Rand's inner circle like Narishima and Flinn. I don't know if it was because of Rand but it seemed that characters who were around him, grew a lot. Someone said before about Nynaeve that she wasn't always right, but her heart was in the right place and EVENTUALLY she would learn and try not to be the same as she used to be.

GonzoTheGreat
05-08-2014, 04:37 AM
I'm going to reply quickly, Gonzo. Gawyn asks "why use a knife" several times and every person he talks to - including Sleete - replies with "Because using the Power would alert the victim and other sisters."
As Gawyn points out: other sisters would not be too likely to find it alarming when they sense channeling coming from somewhere in the White Tower. They know there are other channelers aside from themselves, so they don't worry about that kind of thing.
Gawyn did overlook the fact that even an AS might find it alarming when a murderer walks up to her with a knife dripping with the blood of his previous victim, so the "use a knife to avoid alerting them to danger" probably wouldn't be as good a ploy as Gawyn and Sleete think.

With a knife, you have to get close enough to your target to use that knife against her. With the OP, all you need do is peek through the keyhole and use the small amount of Power needed to stop a heart.
"That," a woman said nearby, a sound of utter distaste in her tone, "is something I'm not supposed to know how to do, but stopping someone's heart with the One Power is quiet. It requires very little Power, surprisingly, which is pertinent to me."Siuan actually tells us that it "is quiet" and therefor is hardly noticeable even when people are actively scanning for dangerous weaves, such as here right in the middle of a battle involving the OP.

Now, Siuan does say that it is something she is not supposed to know how to do. But that does not seem to be a valid reason to assume that BA members wouldn't know how to do it, nor that they would refrain from using this method.

So all in all, the "using the OP would be a bigger risk than using knives" argument holds no water.

On top of that, there are a lot of channelers who commented on this very issue (of using either ordinary implements or the OP), and they all despise "things that anyone could use" and greatly prefer to use the OP. This is true for Lanfear, for Taim and his cronies, but also for the Yellow Ajah's attitude towards Nynaeve and her herbs.
BA members may use a knife for killing, but that is not a method one should expect of them. When finding a knife victim, the murder method counts strongly against it being BA work, not in favor of it.

Daekyras
05-08-2014, 09:41 AM
Favourite: Mat

Least Favourite: Gawyn.

I know that some people are defending Gawyn here for his actions in that particular little sub-plot but lets face it- he sucks.

Every single chapter/story with him in it is a balls and he makes other characters around him less likeable. Egwene for example. Great up to the point she spends time with him.

In the Brandon Books there is a concerted effort to make him more likeable by having him display martial skill etc but even those scenes are stupid (Practicing swords with sleete, going to Bryne's camp, bloodknife fight).

He is just a vacuum of interest.

Kimon
05-08-2014, 05:08 PM
Every single chapter/story with him in it is a balls and he makes other characters around him less likeable. Egwene for example. Great up to the point she spends time with him.



He did help get Min out of the WT, but yeah, ever since that brief moment of sanity and prudence he has pretty thoroughly sucked. Definitely deserving of inclusion amongst the worst, and most hated (at least for me) characters.

As for favorites, close call between Min, Moiraine, and Mat.

As for Egwene, I'm sure that it surprises no one that discussion about her merits or lack there of have completely dominated this thread...

Rand al'Fain
05-09-2014, 12:13 AM
He did help get Min out of the WT, but yeah, ever since that brief moment of sanity and prudence he has pretty thoroughly sucked. Definitely deserving of inclusion amongst the worst, and most hated (at least for me) characters.

As for favorites, close call between Min, Moiraine, and Mat.

As for Egwene, I'm sure that it surprises no one that discussion about her merits or lack there of have completely dominated this thread...

Well, when its about the most liked and most disliked characters in the series, Egwene is one of, if not the most polarizing character in the series. People either really like her and think she's awesome (and even 1 or 2 on here think she's on par with Rand for importance) while others dislike her, and some out right despise her.

Me, yeah, I never cared for her much. A couple parts she's fine, most others, let's just say I think she benefieted quite heavily from a bunch of once competant Aes Sedai turning stupid for the parts where most people seem to like her.

Seeker
05-09-2014, 12:45 AM
As Gawyn points out: other sisters would not be too likely to find it alarming when they sense channeling coming from somewhere in the White Tower. They know there are other channelers aside from themselves, so they don't worry about that kind of thing.
Gawyn did overlook the fact that even an AS might find it alarming when a murderer walks up to her with a knife dripping with the blood of his previous victim, so the "use a knife to avoid alerting them to danger" probably wouldn't be as good a ploy as Gawyn and Sleete think.

With a knife, you have to get close enough to your target to use that knife against her. With the OP, all you need do is peek through the keyhole and use the small amount of Power needed to stop a heart.

Gonzo, there are any number of reasons why a channeler might use a knife, not the least of which is the fact that a knife wound would deflect suspicion onto people who can't use the One Power. More to the point, the use of a knife doesn't preclude the use of the one power as the killer might use that weave to stop her victim's heart and then slash the victim's throat to make it look like a non-channeler did this.

As I reread this subplot, I suddenly find myself feeling a touch of remourse for calling it sexist because Gawyn is constantly portrayed as a petulant little prick, and Egwene comes off as rational and reasonable

Here's their conversation. Word for word.

Egwene:
What is it you find so necessary to discuss?

Gawyn:
The murders.

Egwene:
What about them?

Gawyn:
Burn me, Egwene, do you have to show me the Amyrlin every time we speak? Once in a while, cant I see Egwene?

(And of course he takes it personally. You know, because clearly "what about them?" must be some thinly-veiled insult. It couldn't possibly be the case that Egwene said that because it was the ONLY response that makes sense in this context! In fact, his curt response of "the murders" literally requires that she ask him to elaborate.)

Egwene:
I show you the Amyrlin because you refuse to accept her Once you do so, perhaps we can move beyond that.

Gawyn:
Light, you've learned to talk like one of them!

Egwene:
That's because I AM one of them. Your choice of words betrays you. The Amyrlin cannot be served by those who refuse to see her authority.

(So, let's review. Supposedly Gawyn came here to talk about the murders, but so far, all he's done is change the subject to his personal issues, imply that "the Amyrlin" is not the real Egwene - which is insulting - and then belittle Egwene's chosen profession. Why exactly are we taking his side again?)

Gawyn.
I accept you. I do. But isn't it important to have people who know you for yourself and not the title?

Egwene:
So long as they know there is a place for obedience. You aren't ready yet, Gawyn. I'm sorry.

Gawyn:
Very well. Then about the assassinations. We've realized that none of the women killed had warders.

Egwene:
Yes, I was given a report on that.

Gawyn:
Regardless, it brings my thoughts to a larger issue. We don't have enough warders. We're preparing for the last battle, Egwene. And yet there are sisters without warders. A lot of sisters. Some had one but never took another after he died. Others never wanted one. I don't think you can afford this.

Egwene:
What would you have me do? COMMAND the women to take warders?

Gawyn:
Yes.

Egwene:
You don't know what you're saying. The choosing and keeping of a warder is a very personal and intimate decision. No woman should be forced into it.

(A valid concern)

Gawyn:
Well, the choice to go to war is very 'personal' and 'intimate,' yet all across the land, men are called into it. Sometimes feelings aren't as important as survival Warders keep sisters alive, and every Aes Sedai is going to be of vital importance soon. There will be legions and legions of trollocs. Every sister on the field will be more valuable than a hundred soldiers, and every sister healing will save dozens of lives. The Aes Sedai are assets that belong to humanity. You cannot afford to let them go about unprotected.

(Also valid)

Egwene:
Perhaps there is... wisdom in those words, Gawyn.

(So, let's review. Gawyn's task was to investigate the murders. Advising Egwene on Tower politics was clearly outside of his mandate, and yet despite that fact, she listens and gives his words due consideration. In this one line, she shows that she's willing to be persuaded. So, Egwene is behaving reasonably, and Gawyn is acting like a petulant child. Now, under these circumstances, can you really blame her for not gushing and professing her undying love?)

There's some more discussion on warders that I'm going to skip.

Gawyn:
At least tell me this. Have the sisters raised the worry that this might not be the work of the Black Ajah? That the assassin might be a Gray Man or Darkfriend?

Egwene:
No, they have not. Because we know the assassin is not one of those two.

Gawyn:
But the door last night, it was forced. And the women are killed with knives, not the One Power. There are no signs of gateways.

Egwene:
The killer has access to the One Power. And perhaps they are not using gateways.

Gawyn:
You're keeping secrets. Not just from me. From the entire Tower.

Egwene:
Secrets are needed sometimes, Gawyn.

Gawyn:
I'm worried the assassin will come for you.

Egwene:
Undoubtedly, she will come for me. Very well. I've told this to the women doing the investigation; perhaps I should tell you too. One of the Forsaken is in the Tower.

Gawyn:
What? Where? You have her captive?

Egwene:
No. She's the assassin.

Gawyn:
You know this?

Egwene:
I know Mesaana is here. I've dreamed it to be true. Now, four Aes Sedai dead? It's her Gawyn. It's the only thing that makes sense.

(In light of the dream and Verin's intel, this is a very good theory.)

Egwene:
I haven't told the entire Tower. I worry that if they knew one of the sisters was secretly one of the Forsaken, it would divide us again as under Elaida. We'd all be suspicious of one another. It's bad enough with them thinking Black sisters are traveling in to commit murders. And maybe Mesaana will think I'm not aware it is her. But there, that's the secret you begged me to know. It's not a Black sister we hunt, but one of the Forsaken.

Gawyn:
We'll deal with it.

Egwene:
I have sisters searching the histories of everyone in the Tower. And others are watching for suspicious words or actions. We'll find her. But I don't see how we can make the women any more secure without inciting greater panic.

Gawyn:
Warders.

Egwene:
I'll think on it. For now, there is something I need of you.

Gawyn:
If it's within my power, Egwene. You know that.

Egwene:
Is that so? Very well. I want you to stop guarding my door at night.

Gawyn:
What? Egwene, no!'

Egwene:
You see? Your first instinct is to challenge me.

Gawyn:
It's the duty of a warder to offer challenge in private where his Aes Sedai is concerned.

Egwene:
You are NOT my warder, Gawyn.

(And she's right, he isn't. He's being presumptuous and douchey. Egwene doesn't owe him a warder bond).

Egwene:
Besides, you could do little to stop one of the Forsaken. This battle will be fought by sisters, and I am being very careful with the wards I set. I want my quarters to look inviting. If she tries to attack me, perhaps I can surprise her with an ambush.

Gawyn:
Use yourself as bait? Egwene, this is madness!

Egwene:
No, it's desperation, Gawyn; women I am responsible for are dying. Murdered in the night in a time when you yourself said we will need every woman. I have sisters researching everything they can find about Mesaana. She's not a warrior, Gawyn. She's an adiministrator, a planner. If I can confront her, I can defeat her, but we must find her first. Exposing myself is only one of my plans - and you are right it is dangerous - but my precautions have been extensive.

Gawyn:
I don't like it at all.

Egwene:
Your approval is not required. You will have to trust me.

Gawyn:
I do trust you.

Egwene:
All I ask is that you show it for once.

So, all you people who say Egwene ignored the evidence are just flat-out wrong. She didn't ignore anything. She listened carefully to everything he had to say. Gawyn had a paper-thin case, and she had good intel that Mesaana was in the Tower.

Moreover, even if Gawyn had been correct and the perpetrator had been a Gray Man, Egwene's wards would have caught him. She carefully considered all the angles. She gave him her full attention.

I'm sorry.

Much as I may dislike her, Egwene was right and Gawyn was wrong.

Zombie Sammael
05-09-2014, 02:17 AM
As for Egwene, I'm sure that it surprises no one that discussion about her merits or lack there of have completely dominated this thread...

.

These kind of threads almost inevitably turn into Egwene-bashing, which then leads to Egwene-arguments when her fans come out to defend her. Thankfully, we have a quarantine for that.

What did I tell you?

fionwe1987
05-09-2014, 03:13 AM
Here's their conversation. Word for word.

Its funny how doing that so very often ends up vindicating whichever character is being called a douche.

GonzoTheGreat
05-09-2014, 04:44 AM
Gonzo, there are any number of reasons why a channeler might use a knife, not the least of which is the fact that a knife wound would deflect suspicion onto people who can't use the One Power. More to the point, the use of a knife doesn't preclude the use of the one power as the killer might use that weave to stop her victim's heart and then slash the victim's throat to make it look like a non-channeler did this.
That might very well fool an AS (they are rather easy to fool), but I do not think it would feel the Tower Guard investigation team.

If you slash the throat of someone who is alive, the blood spurts out, propelled by the heartbeat. If you slash the throat of someone whose heart has stopped, the blood seeps out, propelled by gravity only. The resulting blood spatter would almost always look very different, and the difference would be easy to spot for someone who had any idea what to look for.

So to make you scheme work, the killer would also have to use the OP to spread the blood around the room in a convincing looking way. The simplest way of doing that would be to use the OP as an artificial heart, to provide the blood pressure required. Which would bring up the next problem: when to stop. Pump too much blood out of the body, and that gets suspicious.

All in all, the assumption that the killings were done by someone who can channel is a lot less reasonable than the assumption that they were done by someone who can't channel. That doesn't mean no channelers are involved at all, but it does mean that Egwene's "it is Mesaana and only Mesaana" assumption is just plain wrong. Which is what Gawyn failed to get her to understand, so he did suck at explaining the patently obvious.


Oh, in case anyone is wondering: I suspect that Egwene is my "most disliked" character. I don't think it is correct to say that I hate her, but I definitely wouldn't want someone like that as a friend.
Post-Shadar Logoth Padan Fain is probably my favorite character. He is honest, dedicated and willing to do what he thinks is right, no matter who it hurts. Though I wouldn't want him as a friend either, come to think of it.

Davian93
05-09-2014, 08:31 AM
Reading the dialogue again makes me remember how annoying I find both of their characters.

Uno
05-09-2014, 09:52 AM
Reading the dialogue again makes me remember how annoying I find both of their characters.

That makes perfect sense, though. Ever been stuck on the bus next to college-aged kids and had to listen to their conversations?

fionwe1987
05-09-2014, 09:55 AM
All in all, the assumption that the killings were done by someone who can channel is a lot less reasonable than the assumption that they were done by someone who can't channel.
It wasn't an assumption, it was a conclusion. A reasonable one that turned out to be wrong, but guess what, it wouldn't have mattered:

"Egwene, I— "
"Do you realize what you have done?"
"I checked to see if the woman I love was safe, following the discovery of an assassin outside her door."
She folded her arms beneath her breasts. He could almost feel the heat of her anger. "Your yelling has drawn half of the White Tower. They saw
you captured. The assassin probably knows, now, about my weaves."
"Light, Egwene! You talk as if I did it on purpose. I was only trying to protect you."
"I didn't ask for your protection! I asked for your obedience! Gawyn, don't you see the opportunity we've missed? If you hadn't scared Mesaana away, she'd have walked into my traps!"
"It wasn't one of the Forsaken," Gawyn said. "It was a man."
"You said you couldn't see the face or make out the figure because it was blurred."
"Well, yes," Gawyn said. "But he fought with the sword."
"And a woman couldn't use a sword? The size of the person you saw indicated a woman."
"Maybe, but one of the Foresaken? Light, Egwene, if it had been Mesaana, then she'd have used the Power to burn me to dust!"
"Another reason," Egwene said, "that you should not have disobeyed me! Perhaps you're right—perhaps this was one of Mesaana's minions. A
Darkfriend or Gray Man. If that were the case, I'd have them captive and be able to learn about Mesaana's plots. And Gawyn, what if you had found Mesaana? What could you have done?"


Had Gawyn not interfered, Egwene's plans, drawn from an incorrect conclusion, were still good enough that she'd have gotten one captive Bloodknife. At which point she'd have reassessed, and been able to take different precautions for the time she fought Mesaana.

GonzoTheGreat
05-09-2014, 11:15 AM
If the Bloodknife had been acting alone, which you assume is the case, even though the actual evidence of the next attack shows that is not a good assumption at all. Given the fact that they targeted only AS without Warders, and then went in force after the Amyrlin, I would say that they knew what they were doing. So it stands to reason that they had already been prepared for meeting tougher opposition when attacking the Amyrlin, and thus would have had an observer to see what happened to the first attacker.

Plus, I do not think that getting information out of a Bloodknife or a Gray Man would be as easy as you think it is. At most, it would have alerted Egwene to the possible presence of more of those attackers, which is what Gawyn tried to tell her anyway.

fionwe1987
05-09-2014, 11:50 AM
If the Bloodknife had been acting alone, which you assume is the case, even though the actual evidence of the next attack shows that is not a good assumption at all.
That was the next attack. After Gawyn's actions warned them that the Amyrlin was much better protected than appearances suggested. They saw that her wards would trigger a lot of noise, so they were therefore able to plan ahead and kill all the Tower Guards Egwene had posted nearby to respond to that very thing.

Given the fact that they targeted only AS without Warders, and then went in force after the Amyrlin, I would say that they knew what they were doing.
No, they initially just sent one person after Egwene, since they thought she too was an Aes Sedai without a Warder, and she had deliberately left her rooms unguarded and inviting. They only sent a great force once they learned she was much better prepared than appearances suggested.

So it stands to reason that they had already been prepared for meeting tougher opposition when attacking the Amyrlin, and thus would have had an observer to see what happened to the first attacker.
Yes, I'm sure they'd have had an observer. But that wouldn't change the fact that one of them would have been Egwene's captive.
Plus, I do not think that getting information out of a Bloodknife or a Gray Man would be as easy as you think it is. At most, it would have alerted Egwene to the possible presence of more of those attackers, which is what Gawyn tried to tell her anyway.
Ahh, but Gawyn had absolutely no proof. It was not someone who could channel, but they could make themselves appear shadowy and formless? What's Egwene supposed to take away from that? The most parsimonious conclusion was that this was a channeler. If this was some sort of dark creature instead, Egwene's plan still accounted for that.

As for info from a Bloodknife, maybe they wouldn't have broken with the Chair of Remorse being used on them. But even so, Egwene would have gotten their ter'angreal ring, which she could have had Elayne analyse. They may have been able to fashion wards against them, or detect them some other way. She'd have also known these were Seanchan, alerting her to the fact that there were multiple sources of threat to her life.

For certain, Egwene would have placed a much stronger guard of Aes Sedai and Warders about herself, because she could openly justify that due to the Seanchan assassins without hinting she knew Mesaana was around. Heck, she could have instituted a Tower wide search for these assassins and used it as a pretext to try and root out Mesaana as well.

What you're arguing is that Egwene should have trusted Gawyn's word when he'd just shown himself to be disobedient and unreliable instead of trusting what she could have learned from a live captive. A captive she was alertly waiting for, so even if there had been three others waiting to rush in when the first got captured, she'd have stood an extremely good chance. All she had to do was raise a bubble of Air around herself and she'd have been protected. Then all she'd have to do is focus on capturing as many more as she could.

Davian93
05-09-2014, 08:21 PM
That makes perfect sense, though. Ever been stuck on the bus next to college-aged kids and had to listen to their conversations?

What's a bus?

GonzoTheGreat
05-10-2014, 04:33 AM
What's a bus?
Sort of like a car, but custom build for letting entrepeneurs move numerous people along motorways and such in exchange for money. They tend to be very unpopular in the USA, probably because of that countries views on socialism, so if you are an American, you may not have ever encountered a bus in real life. Over there, only those who think that the government should get involved in all sorts of areas of private life favor buses, while those who think the government should not try regulate personal preferences (example of such a person (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa_parks)) don't use the bus.

In Europe, for historical reasons, people have different attitudes.

fdsaf3
05-14-2014, 12:23 PM
This has been a civil conversation thus far, but I'm surprised that the super-mods didn't come in and move most of this to the quarantine thread.

Rand al'Fain
05-15-2014, 01:20 AM
This has been a civil conversation thus far, but I'm surprised that the super-mods didn't come in and move most of this to the quarantine thread.

Well, it does fit with the topic title, and it was only a matter of time until it became a discussion on why Egwene sucks/rocks, so yeah.

Ishara
05-15-2014, 01:18 PM
We're keeping an eye on it. Civility is key, as is reason.

Davian93
05-15-2014, 01:51 PM
Egwene got a lot less annoying by the end of aMoL...

Hugh the Hand
05-15-2014, 02:07 PM
I disagree, unless you mean, perhaps jokingly, at the very end of AMoL when she was dead and the LB was over.

Her comments to Rand while he was battling the DO seemed annoying to me, perhaps they were necessary, but she was still the nagging selfish girl to me in that scene.

If the scene was necessary to Rand realizing he needed to let go and let others do their part, I would think Tam would have been better, as he was the one that helped him with his hand and during the epiphany.

But that is just me.

fionwe1987
05-15-2014, 02:12 PM
Her comments to Rand while he was battling the DO seemed annoying to me, perhaps they were necessary, but she was still the nagging selfish girl to me in that scene.

Yes. You've got to let others die for this all important cause is such an annoying and selfish sentiment...:rolleyes:

Davian93
05-15-2014, 07:46 PM
I disagree, unless you mean, perhaps jokingly, at the very end of AMoL when she was dead and the LB was over.

Her comments to Rand while he was battling the DO seemed annoying to me, perhaps they were necessary, but she was still the nagging selfish girl to me in that scene.

If the scene was necessary to Rand realizing he needed to let go and let others do their part, I would think Tam would have been better, as he was the one that helped him with his hand and during the epiphany.

But that is just me.

I jokingly meant after she was dead that she was far less annoying.

Same with Gawyn for that matter.

GonzoTheGreat
05-16-2014, 04:24 AM
Her comments to Rand while he was battling the DO seemed annoying to me, perhaps they were necessary, but she was still the nagging selfish girl to me in that scene.
True, but in that case, it was actually justified nagging, which makes it all right. It is only the unjustified nagging that she's done throughout all the rest of the series which is annoying. So I guess that we can say about Egwene "death becomes her".

Seeker
05-17-2014, 01:16 PM
Egwene is Meryl Streep?

It all makes sense now!