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Terez
05-10-2014, 04:09 AM
As some of you know, Marie Curie and I spent a week in Charleston digging through RJ's notes in the College of Charleston library. We were able to take away a good bit of stuff before Harriet decided not to allow scans that Friday (I emailed Alan about this on Monday, and they took all week making this decision). Needless to say we are not allowed to post scans online, and we're trying to stay away from stuff that will be in the Encyclopedia, but I have been sharing tidbits on Twitter/Facebook.

I talked to bossman about doing a series of homepage articles on RJ's earliest ideas about the series, i.e. mostly before TEOTW is published and no later than TDR (we have almost no notes between TDR and LOC, which makes a good dividing line). I am still going to do that but I felt compelled to reorient myself to the later files and work my way backward to the dividing line before really digging into the early stuff beyond what I've already done. I am sharing everything with Linda because 1) she is trusted by Team Jordan more than I am, obviously, 2) she needs the notes more than I do for her work, and 3) she would have gone to the library this year if her annual JordanCon trip hadn't been waylaid by job loss and other complications. (She got a new job, but she was out of work at the wrong time.) I have also been discussing the notes more than anyone else with Dom, Linda's once-partner at 13th Depository. I have been talking to him more than anyone else this last year or so because he's helping me learn French, so he is a natural person to blab with.

So at the moment I am reading a lot of stuff in Encyclopedia territory, most of which I can't share, but there are (as there always have been) tidbits on the edges which seem appropriate to share. I figured I would start a thread here to summarize what I've said publicly so far and also have a place to share longer thoughts if I have them, for anyone who might happen to be interested.

Strength in the power has not traditionally been one of our focus points here, but there has been some discussion of it. RJ's scale is much more detailed and filled out than I really expected, which is not to say there aren't a few gaps. With one exception (Moiraine), I won't give strengths for anyone except those we already knew, i.e. people whose strengths set boundaries like Moridin and Lanfear and Daighan, for two reasons: 1) that's Encyclopedia territory, and 2) I'm not sure what they will feel compelled to change. (The notes can be very fluid sometimes, and there are a few contradictions.)

For the boundaries: Moridin is tip-top for men, and Lanfear for women. We're not sure from what we have seen how many levels are between them, but we suspect there are six male levels above Lanfear. (Not Cyndane.) RJ said that the male bottom and the female bottom are roughly equivalent. Moiraine appears to be rock bottom.

It may be that Moiraine is not strictly rock bottom and there are as many as 3 levels below her, but in that case there would probably be fewer male levels above Lanfear (totally possible). We know of at least 3 male levels above Lanfear from the Forsaken notes of KOD era, Aginor being the only dead one included.

The reason we have this 3-level error estimate is because we suspect RJ meant for there to be 72 total levels of strength. Team Jordan, if they do include strengths, might choose to simplify it to a 72-scale. (I probably would; RJ's way of doing it was entirely idiomatic and intended to avoid errors when he switched systems.)

He appears to have started out, like he said, with a 21-scale for Aes Sedai. Then he realized this didn't give him enough nuance to work with and he expanded the Aes Sedai scale to 33. However, this scale did not include the Supergirls or Cadsuane, so Moiraine/Siuan/Elaida/Romanda/Lelaine were at level 1, and Daighan (lowest level to be allowed to test for the shawl) was at level 33. Anyone stronger than Elaida et al. would be indicated by a + on that scale.

Then he decided to make an expanded scale to include stronger women. On this scale, Lanfear (not Cyndane) was level 1 and Daighan was level 45. But since he had the potential problem of ending up with two similar-looking and indistinguishable scales (these numbers are scattered everywhere, virtually any time the Aes Sedai are mentioned in whatever file), he used both numbers. So Lanfear is 1/+12, Elaida is 13/1, and Daighan is 45/33.

Moiraine went from 13/1 to 66/54. We believe that this is rock bottom because it's well below the level where a woman can channel consistently (though Moiraine has experience on her side, and an angreal), and also because it's the bottom of an age-correlation scale he set up that gives rough life expectancies sans-Oaths. Life expectancy is strength-dependent (which we already knew). Nowhere in the notes does RJ give a lower strength than 66/54; even Sorilea is higher, maybe Morgase too.

So that means there are 66 total levels for women. That also happens to be the max number of women in a full circle of 72 (which would include 6 men). This is why I lean toward there being 6 male levels above Lanfear; it would fit with RJ saying there were 'several' better than 3.

fionwe1987
05-10-2014, 10:31 AM
Once again, thanks for sharing all you can, Terez!

So that means there are 66 total levels for women. That also happens to be the max number of women in a full circle of 72 (which would include 6 men). This is why I lean toward there being 6 male levels above Lanfear; it would fit with RJ saying there were 'several' better than 3.
Interesting. Functionally, we know Lanfear is effectively as strong as Rand/Moridin because of women's greater dexterity. That there are 3-6 levels of raw strength above Lanfear makes me wonder if RJ intended for dexterity to be a constant for women which multiplied their raw strength by a little bit, or is dexterity also a gradient, from high to low, where women have more levels than men.

Either ways, I can see why the minimum strength for both men and women would be the same.

rand
05-11-2014, 12:30 PM
Cool stuff.

I've been out of the WoT loop for the past few weeks, so sorry if this has already come up, but:

Any indication when the encyclopedia will be out?

And does it seem like it will meet our (high) expectations?

Dom
05-11-2014, 06:16 PM
That there are 3-6 levels of raw strength above Lanfear makes me wonder if RJ intended for dexterity to be a constant for women which multiplied their raw strength by a little bit, or is dexterity also a gradient, from high to low, where women have more levels than men.

So far there's really no good evidence that would suggest dexterity in weaving could "multiply" anything. Nothing appears to be exponential or multiplied, in fact.

What we have suggests that dexterity counts a something like a talent. If we take a step (Jordan's preferred word for "level". Step=level) as being a finite quantity of saidar, then it always takes 3 or 6 steps (depending if we're right that men have 6 levels above women) more saidin to match the performance of a saidar weave. Saidar weaves are thus slightly more efficient. From various comments in the notes, it seems that gap could be constant, just like "a step" strongly appears to be a unit of measure, thus constant, and the scale fully linear. If we say one level = 1 unit of OP and a woman uses two units of saidar for a weave, it would take 2+6 (or 2+3) units of saidin to match her, not 2x6 (or 2x3).

But at this point it's still a bit speculative as info on male strength is very hard to come across. It may be in a single file that Terez doesn't have, maybe a kind of compendium of Asha'man similar to the Aes Sedai one.

So far Terez has found only the strengths of the living Forsaken by KOD, and they're mentioned only in that one file, nowhere else where the male Forsaken appear (while the women's strengths do show up in many files..). It may well be that RJ bothered with male strengths very late only, maybe as late as when Logain's group started working together.

That's really something RJ used mostly for women, and the evidence of this is everywhere. He probable ended up adding the Forsaken because mentions of strengths (by Alviarin, regarding Alivia etc.) were starting to appear.

There are note files by story line/book, the kind of summary you expect a writer to keep at hand when he wrote a story arc and didn't want to go into the main files to look up the basics. Lists of all players, with very short to more elaborate notes from past books, reminders, LOTS of elaborate descriptions of ALL the wardrobe possessed by everyone etc. In those, RJ virtually always included the strength of female channelers. But the strength of Asha'man, so far never. Not for Neald and Grady, not for Rand's Asha'man, there's not even one strength given in a BT story line file from circa WH to KOD. Even more telling: in those files RJ most often had reminders of previously mentioned strength comparisons, even for minor women (with reminders to disregard when they were not accurate for good reasons: Forsaken X was being arrogant, Aes Sedai X overlooked the strong wilders on purpose etc.) We have yet to see any equivalent for men, even though RJ did mention strength appraisals here and there for Flinn, Narishma etc. He didn't bother including them in his "writing files" as reminders. They were probably only in his main Asha'man files, since he rarely used the, in the books. I even wonder if he bothered distributing men "by the book" with the bell curve like the women or went more randomly since he would hardly mention their strengths.

So RJ wasn't lying when he said this was mostly for women, and mostly to determine social behavior, speak of potentials or draw comparisons. This also appears not to have played much role, if at all, in setting up OP action scenes.

For example there is an outline/plan for one of those (which virtually hasn't changed in the final book it appears in). Only female strengths are included in there. It's pretty obvious he didn't use at all the strength scale in "action scenes".

As for the men levels, I'm behind Terez's theory. I think 72 is definitely the # of "effective levels". If they are more, they "don't work", ie: the ability is genetically present, but the soul or its connection to the TS is too weak for the human brain to make use of the ability at all.

So I think personally that "female dexterity" is constant. Daigan's weaves would match a man's six steps above her, just like Lanfear matches Rand. I speculate from this that while levels 60 to 66 theorically exist for men, but for a man to be able to seize the source at all, the mark is six levels higher than a woman's. Therefore, while the weakest man and woman are equal in OP quantities (as RJ implied. he said "weakest man/woman are roughly the same), it is also true that the weakest woman in effect matches the weakest man. So the six last levels for men would be "ghost levels", and in effect there would be 66 levels for men as well.

At the moment I'm more interested by the linking rules, as it's getting very clear that there's either a mathematical or philosophic correlation between that and the strength scale. 66 levels for women, 6 higher levels for men on top. 72 is the largest circle and requires at least 6 men to 66 women. Now, why is it 13 women before a man must be included, and etc.? How does it work mathematically?

By the way, it also appears that Brandon was quite right with this answer:

IOne of the things I’ve been doing when I answer questions is that I’ve been saying that this is my understanding and putting an asterisk at the bottom that is a - I am speaking from my understanding and not from specific knowledge from the notes, meaning yes I am probably right but these are the questions I could be wrong on…this one my understanding is that it is a reservoir of power. It is not necessarily a magnification. A very weak person with a very powerful sa’angreal is very powerful. I’m pretty sure on that one, but I will add the asterisk just in case.

There are even interesting connections that are beginning to appear between angreal, san'angreal and the strength scale.

This info isn't from the notes, but I think the strongest female angreal = level 1/12+ (made from a seed by a level 1/+12 woman) or if you prefer it boosts you by 66 steps, the strongest male angreal = ++1. The strongest female san'angreal could be 66 x level 1/12+ (made by the 66 level 1/+12 women in a circle of 72, with 6 men. Saidin would be used for the buffer, maybe?). I think the CK might exceed these limits, thus the requirement for AK, but that's even more speculative than the rest (the angreal bit is much less speculative, since we have a good approximation of the strength of Moiraine's in TOM - it makes her stronger than Romanda, thus over 55 levels, which is confirmed, with more accuracy - a precise level she reaches with it - in the notes).

fionwe1987
05-11-2014, 07:49 PM
So far there's really no good evidence that would suggest dexterity in weaving could "multiply" anything. Nothing appears to be exponential or multiplied, in fact.

What we have suggests that dexterity counts a something like a talent. If we take a step (Jordan's preferred word for "level". Step=level) as being a finite quantity of saidar, then it always takes 3 or 6 steps (depending if we're right that men have 6 levels above women) more saidin to match the performance of a saidar weave. Saidar weaves are thus slightly more efficient. From various comments in the notes, it seems that gap could be constant, just like "a step" strongly appears to be a unit of measure, thus constant, and the scale fully linear. If we say one level = 1 unit of OP and a woman uses two units of saidar for a weave, it would take 2+6 (or 2+3) units of saidin to match her, not 2x6 (or 2x3).

But at this point it's still a bit speculative as info on male strength is very hard to come across. It may be in a single file that Terez doesn't have, maybe a kind of compendium of Asha'man similar to the Aes Sedai one.

So far Terez has found only the strengths of the living Forsaken by KOD, and they're mentioned only in that one file, nowhere else where the male Forsaken appear (while the women's strengths do show up in many files..). It may well be that RJ bothered with male strengths very late only, maybe as late as when Logain's group started working together.

That's really something RJ used mostly for women, and the evidence of this is everywhere. He probable ended up adding the Forsaken because mentions of strengths (by Alviarin, regarding Alivia etc.) were starting to appear.

There are note files by story line/book, the kind of summary you expect a writer to keep at hand when he wrote a story arc and didn't want to go into the main files to look up the basics. Lists of all players, with very short to more elaborate notes from past books, reminders, LOTS of elaborate descriptions of ALL the wardrobe possessed by everyone etc. In those, RJ virtually always included the strength of female channelers. But the strength of Asha'man, so far never. Not for Neald and Grady, not for Rand's Asha'man, there's not even one strength given in a BT story line file from circa WH to KOD. Even more telling: in those files RJ most often had reminders of previously mentioned strength comparisons, even for minor women (with reminders to disregard when they were not accurate for good reasons: Forsaken X was being arrogant, Aes Sedai X overlooked the strong wilders on purpose etc.) We have yet to see any equivalent for men, even though RJ did mention strength appraisals here and there for Flinn, Narishma etc. He didn't bother including them in his "writing files" as reminders. They were probably only in his main Asha'man files, since he rarely used the, in the books. I even wonder if he bothered distributing men "by the book" with the bell curve like the women or went more randomly since he would hardly mention their strengths.

So RJ wasn't lying when he said this was mostly for women, and mostly to determine social behavior, speak of potentials or draw comparisons. This also appears not to have played much role, if at all, in setting up OP action scenes.

For example there is an outline/plan for one of those (which virtually hasn't changed in the final book it appears in). Only female strengths are included in there. It's pretty obvious he didn't use at all the strength scale in "action scenes".

As for the men levels, I'm behind Terez's theory. I think 72 is definitely the # of "effective levels". If they are more, they "don't work", ie: the ability is genetically present, but the soul or its connection to the TS is too weak for the human brain to make use of the ability at all.

So I think personally that "female dexterity" is constant. Daigan's weaves would match a man's six steps above her, just like Lanfear matches Rand. I speculate from this that while levels 60 to 66 theorically exist for men, but for a man to be able to seize the source at all, the mark is six levels higher than a woman's. Therefore, while the weakest man and woman are equal in OP quantities (as RJ implied. he said "weakest man/woman are roughly the same), it is also true that the weakest woman in effect matches the weakest man. So the six last levels for men would be "ghost levels", and in effect there would be 66 levels for men as well.
I don't think I worded myself well. When I said "multiply", I wasn't quite being descriptive enough. Basically, the one you describe is where dexterity is a constant. It "adds" or "multiplies" to the base strength of the women. Its either a Talent they all posses in equal measure, or more likely a feature of saidar itself (maybe because it is more calm, unlike the chaotic saidin?).

The other option was that there was a scale for dexterity too, and it is entirely different from the strength scale (in that you could have very strong channlers with low dexterity and vice versa and everything in between). You then take a character's position in both scales, and perform some mathematical function to arrive at their effective strength. This doesn't appear to be the case, and I'm thankful for that, since it would have been a nightmare to figure out what people could effectively do.

At the moment I'm more interested by the linking rules, as it's getting very clear that there's either a mathematical or philosophic correlation between that and the strength scale. 66 levels for women, 6 higher levels for men on top. 72 is the largest circle and requires at least 6 men to 66 women. Now, why is it 13 women before a man must be included, and etc.? How does it work mathematically?
This is fascinating, isn't it. That there are 72 levels and 72 is the maximum for a circle is interesting. Though we must remember that a circle of 72 can forcibly introduce one more person into the circle.

By the way, it also appears that Brandon was quite right with this answer:

I
This is for sa'angreal, right? Because some of what Elayne says make it appear angreal are multiplicative. Though there's a way to interpret her statement to mean it just adds a constant amount, almost like linking with a reservoir of someone's stored strength (and, incidentally, there's a lot of similarity between using an angreal and linking).

There are even interesting connections that are beginning to appear between angreal, san'angreal and the strength scale.

This info isn't from the notes, but I think the strongest female angreal = level 1/12+ (made from a seed by a level 1/+12 woman), the strongest male angreal = ++1. The strongest female san'angreal could be 66 x level 1/12+ (made by the 66 level 1/+12 women in a circle of 72, with 6 men. Saidin would be used for the buffer, maybe?). I think the CK might exceed these limits, thus the requirement for AK, but that's even more speculative than the rest.
The CK might have been made by a super huge circle that was all using sa'angreal and angreal.

What particularly interests me is how making angreal seems so similar to what the Finn did with Moiraine. The Seed drains your natural strength.

Now, since the Finn did this too, and gave Moiraine an angreal to prolong their pleasure, it could be that if you made an angreal while using an angreal, you would increase the strength of the new angreal. Kind of compounding the effect.

The one major question is: what about sa'angreal like Callandor and Vora's wand. The CK seem proof that you can separate out the buffer from the OP magnifying effects of a sa'angreal. Maybe Vora's Wand and Callandor were practice sa'angreal, of sorts. In their making, the channlers learned the need to come up with a new buffering mechanism for super-strong sa'angreal, making the CK possible.

All of which, I hope, will be discussed to some extent in the encyclopedia.

Dom
05-11-2014, 10:17 PM
I don't think I worded myself well. When I said "multiply", I wasn't quite being descriptive enough. Basically, the one you describe is where dexterity is a constant. It "adds" or "multiplies" to the base strength of the women. Its either a Talent they all posses in equal measure, or more likely a feature of saidar itself (maybe because it is more calm, unlike the chaotic saidin?).

That would be for both. But consider this as being totally inconclusive for now.

We have almost nothing about them for now except the exact strength of three of them. Alas, they all are "personal angreal" only one character would use in the series, so RJ expressed their strength by indicating to which level it pushed the character (they are Moiraine's from the Finns, Graendal's ring and Cadsuane's bird).

But let's just say that if Moiraine's multiplied strength, since we know if brings her from level 66 to a (+) level ("above Romanda/Lelaine"), it would mean Lanfear with it could match about 60 women like her... while Rand thought he could handle 200 damane with the male CK. That would make the CK very weak in comparison.

So it is more likely that a very strong angreal would nearly double Lanfear's strength, and would explain why it's san'angreal she drools over.

But it would also mean Elayne seriously misjudged her angreal when she called it "not very strong" and it slightly more than doubled her strength.

But she well might have overestimated the top limit of angreal, having the example of the power of a san'angreal like Vora's Wand to compare it to. RJ for instance specified Graendal's was weak "at least as she reckons such things". It was enough to let her handle Moghedien + Cyndane.

It could well be that the Tower misjudges angreal because with the limited collection there's a huge gap between angreal and the very few san'angreal they own, and they think the gap between the two should be filled by "stronger angreal" when in fact it's san'angreal in the weaker range that they don't own. So they falsely believe they don't own very strong angreal. It could be that. Examples abound in the notes of "unreliable information" passed to us by Aes Sedai who have it wrong. We can pretty much consider as fact that they widely overestimated the strength of the AOlers/Forsaken, in part because the books about them are post-Breaking and already transform some facts into legend (one of those would be the "most powerful AS of the Age of Legends" bit.. The 13 were strong, but this referred to their power at the top of the Chosen hierarchy, not to their strength in the OP. Moghedien or Balthamel were hardly stellar channelers, unlike Aginor or Semirhage who shone in their domain. Another example would be Moiraine who believed Sammael might sense her from 5 miles away... which likely comes from a legend that arose from the fact Sammael loved his large radius of warning wards.. for both saidin/saidar...), and in part because as a result of those false beliefs it's become a convenient excuse for their loss of so many Talents and weaves to believe they're no longer strong enough for them. It made them give up on rediscovery/innovation.

Terez
05-12-2014, 12:51 AM
Cool stuff.

I've been out of the WoT loop for the past few weeks, so sorry if this has already come up, but:

Any indication when the encyclopedia will be out?

And does it seem like it will meet our (high) expectations?
It will hopefully be out next year. We have very little indication as to what will be in it, but there is more detail in the notes than I personally expected, which is a good sign for the Encyclopedia.

Rand al'Fain
05-12-2014, 03:09 AM
So far there's really no good evidence that would suggest dexterity in weaving could "multiply" anything. Nothing appears to be exponential or multiplied, in fact.

What we have suggests that dexterity counts a something like a talent. If we take a step (Jordan's preferred word for "level". Step=level) as being a finite quantity of saidar, then it always takes 3 or 6 steps (depending if we're right that men have 6 levels above women) more saidin to match the performance of a saidar weave. Saidar weaves are thus slightly more efficient. From various comments in the notes, it seems that gap could be constant, just like "a step" strongly appears to be a unit of measure, thus constant, and the scale fully linear. If we say one level = 1 unit of OP and a woman uses two units of saidar for a weave, it would take 2+6 (or 2+3) units of saidin to match her, not 2x6 (or 2x3).

But at this point it's still a bit speculative as info on male strength is very hard to come across. It may be in a single file that Terez doesn't have, maybe a kind of compendium of Asha'man similar to the Aes Sedai one.

So far Terez has found only the strengths of the living Forsaken by KOD, and they're mentioned only in that one file, nowhere else where the male Forsaken appear (while the women's strengths do show up in many files..). It may well be that RJ bothered with male strengths very late only, maybe as late as when Logain's group started working together.

That's really something RJ used mostly for women, and the evidence of this is everywhere. He probable ended up adding the Forsaken because mentions of strengths (by Alviarin, regarding Alivia etc.) were starting to appear.

There are note files by story line/book, the kind of summary you expect a writer to keep at hand when he wrote a story arc and didn't want to go into the main files to look up the basics. Lists of all players, with very short to more elaborate notes from past books, reminders, LOTS of elaborate descriptions of ALL the wardrobe possessed by everyone etc. In those, RJ virtually always included the strength of female channelers. But the strength of Asha'man, so far never. Not for Neald and Grady, not for Rand's Asha'man, there's not even one strength given in a BT story line file from circa WH to KOD. Even more telling: in those files RJ most often had reminders of previously mentioned strength comparisons, even for minor women (with reminders to disregard when they were not accurate for good reasons: Forsaken X was being arrogant, Aes Sedai X overlooked the strong wilders on purpose etc.) We have yet to see any equivalent for men, even though RJ did mention strength appraisals here and there for Flinn, Narishma etc. He didn't bother including them in his "writing files" as reminders. They were probably only in his main Asha'man files, since he rarely used the, in the books. I even wonder if he bothered distributing men "by the book" with the bell curve like the women or went more randomly since he would hardly mention their strengths.

So RJ wasn't lying when he said this was mostly for women, and mostly to determine social behavior, speak of potentials or draw comparisons. This also appears not to have played much role, if at all, in setting up OP action scenes.

For example there is an outline/plan for one of those (which virtually hasn't changed in the final book it appears in). Only female strengths are included in there. It's pretty obvious he didn't use at all the strength scale in "action scenes".

As for the men levels, I'm behind Terez's theory. I think 72 is definitely the # of "effective levels". If they are more, they "don't work", ie: the ability is genetically present, but the soul or its connection to the TS is too weak for the human brain to make use of the ability at all.

So I think personally that "female dexterity" is constant. Daigan's weaves would match a man's six steps above her, just like Lanfear matches Rand. I speculate from this that while levels 60 to 66 theorically exist for men, but for a man to be able to seize the source at all, the mark is six levels higher than a woman's. Therefore, while the weakest man and woman are equal in OP quantities (as RJ implied. he said "weakest man/woman are roughly the same), it is also true that the weakest woman in effect matches the weakest man. So the six last levels for men would be "ghost levels", and in effect there would be 66 levels for men as well.

At the moment I'm more interested by the linking rules, as it's getting very clear that there's either a mathematical or philosophic correlation between that and the strength scale. 66 levels for women, 6 higher levels for men on top. 72 is the largest circle and requires at least 6 men to 66 women. Now, why is it 13 women before a man must be included, and etc.? How does it work mathematically?

By the way, it also appears that Brandon was quite right with this answer:

I

There are even interesting connections that are beginning to appear between angreal, san'angreal and the strength scale.

This info isn't from the notes, but I think the strongest female angreal = level 1/12+ (made from a seed by a level 1/+12 woman) or if you prefer it boosts you by 66 steps, the strongest male angreal = ++1. The strongest female san'angreal could be 66 x level 1/12+ (made by the 66 level 1/+12 women in a circle of 72, with 6 men. Saidin would be used for the buffer, maybe?). I think the CK might exceed these limits, thus the requirement for AK, but that's even more speculative than the rest (the angreal bit is much less speculative, since we have a good approximation of the strength of Moiraine's in TOM - it makes her stronger than Romanda, thus over 55 levels, which is confirmed, with more accuracy - a precise level she reaches with it - in the notes).

Just to throw this out there Dom, the last time, and really only time, that Lanfear ever faced off with Rand was when Rand was still learning to use his powers, and WAY before he got his memories and abilities from when he was LTT. So to make that as a standard, may not be the best thing, plus with Rand's inability to kill women at the time also severely hampered him. Later on, at Maradon, when his abilities and memories are restored, he annhilates tens of thousands of trollocs in a short time with numerous and powerful weaves. On such a scale, that we only see a handful of other times. Lanfear, with a strong angreal, is wreaking destruction, but that destruction is limited to the docks. Rand used the fatman angreal (if I remember right) which is only supposed to be a very small boost to his powers.

GonzoTheGreat
05-12-2014, 03:55 AM
He also used that angreal while fighting Lanfear.

So Rand not yet at full strength with a weak angreal and hampered by his convictions was a match for Lanfear at her strongest with a significant angreal (the one that Moiraine ends up with) while she is quite willing to do damage.
That suggests that Lanfear never really was a match for either LTT or Ishamael in a head to head confrontation. Of course, if she hadn't been too angry, then she could have used a bit more subtlety, which would have made strength less important and dexterity more relevant.

fionwe1987
05-12-2014, 04:31 AM
That suggests that Lanfear never really was a match for either LTT or Ishamael in a head to head confrontation.
There's no point debating that. We know she was as strong as them. She's the strongest woman in the list, they are the strongest men. Per RJ, the strongest woman and the strongest man are functionally equivalent.

As for the docks, we need to keep in mind Lanfear was toying with Rand. Yes, he was resisting LTT's suggestions on how to kill her, but she was also not working to kill him. She was sending weaves that would still him and weaves that gave him pain, while effortlessly fending off his rather stupid attempt to club her with Air. I doubt she was bringing her full strength to bear here.

Boli
05-12-2014, 06:33 AM
OK I'm going to flip the scale because #1 being the most powerful is just plain confusing :P

It has always been my thinking in that there must be something significantly different in an Sa'Angreal and an Angreal for them to named and treated differently - otherwise why not just called them all Angreal.

its my thinking that: Angreal "add" power but are less effective at higher levels.

e.g. Fatman could be +20 power - but can only handle 65 power without melting.

So rand fighting Lanfear would at the time jump from a 60 to a 80 - but when he levelled up to max he could only push 65/72 at the end - a smaller boost up to 85 power.

And the bracelet was +40 but could only handle up to 40 power max without issue... so Lanfear (66) was also boosted to an "80" rather than 106.

This would also explain why both lanfear at the time and rand later on with the fat man seemed "less exhausted" as they were not maxing out their own personal power.

Pass the bracelet onto Moraine and she jumps from a 1 to 41 (higher than her original 35). Elayne will read the bracelet and find it jumps her from 35 (at the time) to 75 (slightly more than double).



Then Sa'Angreal are different. - I'm thinking they are the ones which multiply *but* you need a minimum amount of power to use them... e.g. Calander would be x3 but you need 50 to use it. CK you need at least 60 to use them but give x5 power.

Unfortunately this all fails with Vora's Wand; Mat's Healing and Nyneve managing "almost half" by herself vs Vora and Demandred's Sa'Angreal which is "more powerful than Callandor". whichever way you spin the numbers they do not match up...

*unless* you add in a 3rd rule - Sa'Angreal become more powerful the more power is put into them.

e.g.

push 40 into Vora's Wand - it does a x2
push 50 into Vora's Wand - it does a x3.5

you only need 30 power to use it (e.g. at the time only the most powerful Aes Sedai)

Demandred's Sa' Angreal you needed say 60 power to use

push 60 into Vora's Wand - it does a x3
push 80 into Vora's Wand - it does a x4

so if Mazrim Taim was a 65- he would be fighting with 195
and if Egwene was a 56 she would be fighting with a 196 and wins.


Of course this is all terribly confusing and at the end lets just put it down to artist licence and reinventing the wheel (pun intended) a various stages of the saga writing process.

Terez
05-12-2014, 07:00 AM
OK I'm going to flip the scale because #1 being the most powerful is just plain confusing :P
As if flipping it is less confusing! Think of it as ranking rather than power level and it's not confusing at all...

GonzoTheGreat
05-12-2014, 07:12 AM
As if flipping it is less confusing! Think of it as ranking rather than power level and it's not confusing at all...
Or compare it to stellar magnitudes, where a lower number also means a brighter star.
Or the original Celsius scale, which ran from 100 (freezing water) to 0 (zero, at the boiling point of water). Of course, using the latter in astronomy would be a bit awkward, as then all stellar temperatures would be negative.

Of course, T's idea (made somewhat more explicit by me, here) that the whole scheme is based on a reality show called Ranking The Sedai makes the most sense. Obviously Lanfear would've wanted to be number one in such a show.

Boli
05-12-2014, 09:22 AM
on a pure ranking scale the reverse is fine. but I was trying to make some sense when using angreal and sa'angreal and I dislike in dealing with negatives in multiplication ;)

sleepinghour
05-12-2014, 09:41 AM
Any indication when the encyclopedia will be out?

And does it seem like it will meet our (high) expectations?

There isn't much information available about it yet except for a brief description on the Waygate Foundation site:
Though it is not expected to be released until at least 2014, it will include detailed entries on history, geography, weaponry, natural life such as plants, birds and animals, and character descriptions and backgrounds.

Of the above categories, I'm mostly just interested in history and character backgrounds, but hopefully there will also be other things of interest. I think they did confirm the OP strength list will be included.

Also, no word yet as to whether they will use the BWB defacer/illustrator again or get someone else to do the artwork, but my guess is that they'll go for Ariel Burgess who did the WoT playing cards.

Terez
05-12-2014, 10:25 AM
Apparently the BWB artist signed a contract for so much money and was told so many drawings, but then they asked him to do like 5x more drawings without offering him any more money. RJ said that if he had known that at the time he would have offered the guy some money out of his own pocket.

on a pure ranking scale the reverse is fine. but I was trying to make some sense when using angreal and sa'angreal and I dislike in dealing with negatives in multiplication ;)
But negatives in multiplication are so much easier than negatives in addition and subtraction.

That there are 72 levels and 72 is the maximum for a circle is interesting. Though we must remember that a circle of 72 can forcibly introduce one more person into the circle.
Wat?

(I am going to guess you're talking about involuntary rings, unless there is something in AMOL I forgot. In that case, it's a circle of max-13, and presumably they start with 12 or less.)

fionwe1987
05-12-2014, 10:56 AM
Wat?

(I am going to guess you're talking about involuntary rings, unless there is something in AMOL I forgot. In that case, it's a circle of max-13, and presumably they start with 12 or less.)
It is in the BWB, I think, that a circle of 72 could bring in one more without their consent.

GonzoTheGreat
05-12-2014, 11:15 AM
It is in the BWB, I think, that a circle of 72 could bring in one more without their consent.
Somehow, an actual quote might be a bit more compelling than your "I think", I think.

fionwe1987
05-12-2014, 11:33 AM
Somehow, an actual quote might be a bit more compelling than your "I think", I think.
And I'd provide it, except I don't have my copy with me right now...

suttree
05-12-2014, 12:10 PM
From the BWB:

Linking also has gender-based limitations due to the inherent differences of saidin and saidar. Men have the greater general strength in the Power, but women are essential for linking. Women can initiate a link; men cannot, though they can be part of it and even lead in certain circumstances.

Linking can be learned by any woman who can channel, and one who does not know how to form a link can be brought into one by someone who does know how. Leading a circle, however, depends on both strength and skill, which are not the same thing. The greater the combination of strength and skill, the larger the circle that a woman, or man, can lead.

The one who forms a link is not necessarily the one to lead it. Control can be passed voluntarily, and in the cases of some mixed-gender circles must be passed in order to weave flows.

A circle of up to thirteen female channelers can be linked together without the presence of a man. If a man is added to the link of thirteen women, they can then increase the link to include thirteen more women, or a total of twenty-six women and one man. Two men can take the circle to include thirty-four women. The next total is forty-five, with three men linked with forty-two women, then fifty-four (four men and fifty women), then sixty-three (five men and fifty-eight women), and finally seventy-two (six men and sixty-six women). This last, a circle of seventy-two, is the maximum possible link in terms of numbers.

Terez
05-12-2014, 12:16 PM
There is no mention of involuntary rings in the BWB. As per Moridin, it was unknown in the Age of Legends that it was even possible to force someone into a circle against their will; the Black Ajah discovered how to do this, and of course they couldn't make a circle larger than 13 without men. They did it with female-only circles, and it did not require the full 13 to do it (that's for turning someone to the Shadow). That, as far as we know, is still impossible (i.e. a circle of 14 women and no men).

Master Ablar
05-12-2014, 12:58 PM
There's no point debating that. We know she was as strong as them. She's the strongest woman in the list, they are the strongest men. Per RJ, the strongest woman and the strongest man are functionally equivalent.

As for the docks, we need to keep in mind Lanfear was toying with Rand. Yes, he was resisting LTT's suggestions on how to kill her, but she was also not working to kill him. She was sending weaves that would still him and weaves that gave him pain, while effortlessly fending off his rather stupid attempt to club her with Air. I doubt she was bringing her full strength to bear here.

Strength (taking into account dexterity) is hardly the only thing that matters though. Some people are just better at fighting than others. Egwene might be a better fighter than Elayne for instance, and I don't doubt that Demandred would get the better of Aginor. And LTT of Ishamael. Putting aside knowledge, and skill, and experience, some people just don't have the same affinities.

Also, while dexterity balances out strength, I've always, perhaps mistakenly, taken that to be a very general and global balance. LTT and Lanfear might have the same overall ability granted to them by their strength and dexterity (putting aside natural talent), but that doesn't mean they are equal in everything. Strength may be better for some skills and dexterity for others.

For instance strength might be an advantage in holding a shield on someone, whereas dexterity would be an advantage in placing it.

Seeker
05-12-2014, 02:34 PM
Strength (taking into account dexterity) is hardly the only thing that matters though. Some people are just better at fighting than others. Egwene might be a better fighter than Elayne for instance, and I don't doubt that Demandred would get the better of Aginor. And LTT of Ishamael. Putting aside knowledge, and skill, and experience, some people just don't have the same affinities.

Also, while dexterity balances out strength, I've always, perhaps mistakenly, taken that to be a very general and global balance. LTT and Lanfear might have the same overall ability granted to them by their strength and dexterity (putting aside natural talent), but that doesn't mean they are equal in everything. Strength may be better for some skills and dexterity for others.

For instance strength might be an advantage in holding a shield on someone, whereas dexterity would be an advantage in placing it.

I think Master Ablar is right. I don't think dexterity was meant to be a case of "it takes less saidar to make a fireball than it does saidin." For one thing, that assumes that women will always be more dexterous than men, and since there are lots of women who are stronger than the average man, it makes sense that there would be lots of men who are more dexterous than the average woman. I think dexterity is a measure of individual skill. While Lanfear is stronger than just about every man, Rand is more dexterous than just about every woman as evidenced by Malden. Dexterity is a measure of how many weaves you can make at the same time. So a person with a lot of strength and a small amount of dexterity would make one really big attack, while a person with a lot of dexterity and not much strength would make several small simultaneous attacks. In this way, weaker channelers stand a fighting chance against stronger channelers.

rand
05-12-2014, 03:58 PM
As long as the encyclopedia includes an exhaustive list of all the inns in Randland, including a starred rating system and list of amenities for each one, I'll be happy.

I'd also like to see a scale of innkeepers ranked by portliness, but I won't get my hopes up.

Dom
05-12-2014, 04:42 PM
I think Master Ablar is right. I don't think dexterity was meant to be a case of "it takes less saidar to make a fireball than it does saidin."


That's because RJ mentioned dexterity, but in his explanation that the strongest woman is equal to the strongest man despite channeling a smaller quantity of saidar than he does of saidin, he rather used most often the term "effectiveness".

It's a general "efficiency" factor. The women's weaves are "more efficient" and thus require less OP to achieve the same effects than a man would use, so the smaller quantity of saidar of the strongest woman can produce all the same effects that the equivalent saidin weaves by the strongest man. The implication is that women are better, more economical weavers, no doubt because of the different natures and "profiles" of saidin/saidar. Women need to guide, Men need to force.

Of course Talents, abilities with flows, experience, dexterity, the nature of the work (some tasks are more suited to saidin or saidar, we know this for a fact) etc. will factor in if you compare two actual channelers like Lanfear vs. Moridin instead talking of the general principle that makes the top male and female levels in the end equal in effectiveness.

RJ:
Regarding the levels of male strength, while the weakest man and the weakest woman would be roughly equivalent, you might say that there are several levels of male strength on top of the female levels. Remember to integrate this with what I've said elsewhere about effectiveness, though.

Dom
05-12-2014, 05:11 PM
Just to throw this out there Dom, the last time, and really only time, that Lanfear ever faced off with Rand was when Rand was still learning to use his powers, and WAY before he got his memories and abilities from when he was LTT. So to make that as a standard, may not be the best thing.

I didn't make that a standard or even mentioned that scene, I merely pointed out that Moiraine's angreal (which looks just like that used by Lanfear, though Brandon hesitates when asked if it's the same) is known to push her up over 60 levels. Moiraine is a the very bottom of the scale, and there are 66 levels. If angreal are multipliers, based on the boost it gave Moiraine it would make Lanfear over 60 times as strong as she is. And that still only angreal, bordering on being a san'angreal...

This sounds too strong to me, while Lanfear over 60 levels stronger (if angreal make a finite pool of saidar available safely to you) is roughly Lanfear x 2, and this would be more than enough to do what she did at the docks, handling a virtually untrained and wholly unexperienced man (even with a small angreal) and two strong but stil largely ignorant female learners with twice her strength, her experience and all her AOL training. Keep in mind Lanfear is Rand's equal once the effectiveness is factored in.

For comparison's sake, Lanfear unaided should be able of roughly the same kind of destruction and speed demonstrated by Rand at the manor in KOD.

Seeker
05-12-2014, 05:45 PM
Maybe so. But that doesn't have anything to do with dexterity as far as the definition of the word. Saidar weaves may be more efficient, but to say that women on average are more dexterous means that on average, they have more skill with the Power. That manifests in terms of how many weaves you can make, how precise they are. Damer is probably the most dexterous Asha'man because of his skill with delving. He's probably more dexterous than most Aes Sedai. It seems to me that no one ever healed severing before because no one was ever dexterous enough to find the spot that needed healing. Dexterity is more common among women but there are men who are at the high end of the scale. I don't think dexterity has anything to do with how efficient saidin is when compared to saidar.

fionwe1987
05-12-2014, 05:54 PM
Master Ablar:

I totally agree that there will be different aptitudes for things like fighting which have nothing to do with strength. But with respect to Lanfear and Rand at least, nothing in the books suggests one has a greater aptitude than the other in using the OP to cause destruction. From what we can tell, LTT, Moridin, Demandred, Graendal and Lanfear seem to be at the pinnacle of OP combat (maybe we can add Semirhage and Sammael there too, which incidentally is the list of Foresakn RJ said were almost always at the top of the pyramid). I don't think a conflict between any two of these will be a forgone conclusion.

I think Master Ablar is right. I don't think dexterity was meant to be a case of "it takes less saidar to make a fireball than it does saidin." For one thing, that assumes that women will always be more dexterous than men, and since there are lots of women who are stronger than the average man, it makes sense that there would be lots of men who are more dexterous than the average woman.
I don't think we're understanding "dexterity" the same way. There's dexterity involved in juggling, say. But I don't think that's the kind of dexterity RJ meant.

I think, as Dom says, dexterity with respect to women channelers has to do with them being able to use less of the OP to achieve the same effect, and this is true across the board.

I think dexterity is a measure of individual skill.
They are not, because if they were, the average woman would be more skilled than the average man, which I don't think we have any evidence for.

While Lanfear is stronger than just about every man, Rand is more dexterous than just about every woman as evidenced by Malden.
Maradon, you mean? That was skill, incredible levels of it, but not the same as what RJ meant by a "dexterity factor" that helped women be effectively equal to men.
Dexterity is a measure of how many weaves you can make at the same time.
We really don't know this. We've been told that splitting your weaves is something you can do more of the stronger in the Power you are, and that does indeed seem to be the case generally. I also haven't seen any evidence for women being, on average, able to handle more weaves than men, which would have to be true since women hold the advantage in dexterity compared to men.

So a person with a lot of strength and a small amount of dexterity would make one really big attack, while a person with a lot of dexterity and not much strength would make several small simultaneous attacks. In this way, weaker channelers stand a fighting chance against stronger channelers.
I had thought it could be this way, but Dom says the notes indicate otherwise, ie. there's a single dexterity factor that uniformly bumps up the strength levels of women.

Terez
05-13-2014, 01:50 AM
Theoryland winners in the notes: RS, Sodas, and me!

Being vague is fun.

fionwe1987
05-13-2014, 10:53 AM
Theoryland winners in the notes: RS, Sodas, and me!

Being vague is fun.

Verin should take notes... :mad:

Dom
05-13-2014, 11:04 AM
I had thought it could be this way, but Dom says the notes indicate otherwise, ie. there's a single dexterity factor that uniformly bumps up the strength levels of women.

Not from the notes, from RJ's Q&A explanations of how the men are stronger (handle greater amount of saidin) but the top level woman match the top level man because of greater effectiveness of female weaves, which he also referred to as "greater dexterity".


It takes less saidar than saidin to get the same effect, because women's weaves are more effective. Women don't have to be as strong as a man to match them as a channeler.

We've known this for years now...

The only new information we have from the notes is that the # of extra level is at least three (but probably six), so we can now quantify the "effectiveness factor" somewhat.

We've been told that splitting your weaves is something you can do more of the stronger in the Power you are, and that does indeed seem to be the case generally.

How/where have we been told this? If it's not by RJ but by a character, it may not be reliable information. ;)

Dom
05-13-2014, 11:48 AM
to say that women on average are more dexterous means that on average, they have more skill with the Power.

Yes, in the sense that they designed better, more efficient weaves, which require less saidar to accomplish effect X than a male version of the weave requires saidin for the same effect, therefore you cannot compare the strengths of men and women simply by comparing the amount of OP they can handle, you need to factor in the fact female weaves are more "energy efficient". In practice it means there are several levels of male strength above the top level for women but the top levels of both genders are "equal" in what they can achieve with those amounts of OP. As RJ once put it (as a general principle): everything a top man can do, a top woman can match despite being weaker.

That's a universal principle.

It doesn't factor the flow abilities, Talents, personal dexterity of individual channelers. It simply tells us that if Rand and Lanfear used their full strength to produce a simple fireball, their fireballs would be of comparable strength despite the fact Lanfear is weaker than Rand by several levels, because Lanfear's weave would be more efficient than the male version.

We *think* at this point that it probably means a woman from any level matches any man 6 (or 3) levels higher than her on the scale and that, like all the rest of matters concerning the scale so far, it's probably purely linear, true from the top of the scale to the bottom. But we haven't found hard evidence of this yet. It's just logical deductions.

In Q&A Brandon said once that he didn't think RJ had much of a system in place to compare men to women as he did it very rarely in the books. We can add to that that RJ seemed to rarely use the level #s for his male channelers at all. He must have had them all in some file, but in the one example of a scene outline we have, he included the level numbers only for the AS in his "cast list". Neither the Asha'man, nor the Forsaken involved had them, nor did the *angreal involved. He didn't use that stuff to design "action scenes" as if he "role played" them in a game; he always said the main purpose was to keep track of how Aes Sedai should behave (and later judge WO, SF, Kin, Forsaken etc.) and keep track of details such as "who in which group can make gateways".

The characters entered the story usually with a strength assigned to them (I highly suspect RJ had a pool of "blank" characters, reflecting his distribution of the rarer strengths calculated with the bell curve), but we saw several examples of strengths being changed later to accommodate the evolving plot. If he decided he needed 6 women able to Travel and had only 3 in a group, he changed the strengths of three. Same if he suddenly needed an AS to have to defer to another: if her strength had not been mentioned before, he changed it. In some cases like Kinswomen, it could even mean changing their bios, if one of them was "too weak to test for Accepted" but suddenly had to be able to Travel. She was simply rewritten as one who had failed/refused the test instead. He kept many things very fluid like that.

Terez
05-13-2014, 01:45 PM
Berelain's relationship with the Wise Ones: no exciting reason. They just respect her because she makes the best of her situation and uses her sexuality as "a weapon".

Davian93
05-13-2014, 01:47 PM
Berelain's relationship with the Wise Ones: no exciting reason. They just respect her because she makes the best of her situation and uses her sexuality as "a weapon".

boring...Berelain was one of the best characteres in the books too...despite the lack of respect she gets around here (looks in Tam's direction).

Berelain was awesome.

Dom
05-13-2014, 02:14 PM
Berelain was awesome.

*Nods*. I second. She also looks like Isabelle Adjani in Queen Margot, and that certainly beats a young Cher by a long shot.

Master Ablar
05-13-2014, 03:36 PM
Master Ablar:

I totally agree that there will be different aptitudes for things like fighting which have nothing to do with strength. But with respect to Lanfear and Rand at least, nothing in the books suggests one has a greater aptitude than the other in using the OP to cause destruction. From what we can tell, LTT, Moridin, Demandred, Graendal and Lanfear seem to be at the pinnacle of OP combat (maybe we can add Semirhage and Sammael there too, which incidentally is the list of Foresakn RJ said were almost always at the top of the pyramid). I don't think a conflict between any two of these will be a forgone conclusion.


Well according to this interview:


ROBERT JORDAN
Re: Lanfear and Rand at the docks. She was just toying with him using her angreal, [while he used the little fat man]. They were pretty well matched. BUT, questioned whether Rand's estimation that he could end it if he wanted to, RJ said, yes. But of course, Rand couldn't.


So, had Rand allowed LTT to help, he would have beaten her, but obviously he didn't because he's an idiot. There's also Lanfear taunting Sammael about how he never managed to beat LTT. And she also points out that she didn't want to launch a frontal assault against superior forces, that is against Rand. Which might just be her misleading the Forsaken in terms of how much Rand knows at this point.

While Rand would have no chance against Lanfear due to how untrained he is, LTT evidently excelled at fighting to a greater degree than any channeller we know of. We is basically what LTT is all about. It's not that Lanfear and other Forsaken you mentioned are bad, it's just that LTT is really good.


I had thought it could be this way, but Dom says the notes indicate otherwise, ie. there's a single dexterity factor that uniformly bumps up the strength levels of women.

That's... kind of a shame. It seems far more interesting to me to have dexterity allow equal proficiency but through different weaves. Like how gateways are made for instance. If all dexterity does is "reinforce" your weave, then it's just strength under a different name.

Yes, in the sense that they designed better, more efficient weaves, which require less saidar to accomplish effect X than a male version of the weave requires saidin for the same effect, therefore you cannot compare the strengths of men and women simply by comparing the amount of OP they can handle, you need to factor in the fact female weaves are more "energy efficient".


See, this, I far prefer. Different weaves, with the same potential efficiency, but depending on the situation, one might be preferable than the other. When trying to destroy an obstacle, perhaps dexterity would facilitate aiming for weak points, whereas strength would allow one to bring more force to bear. Depending on the situation one weave might be preferable to the other.

fionwe1987
05-13-2014, 03:49 PM
How/where have we been told this? If it's not by RJ but by a character, it may not be reliable information. ;)
Elayne, Moiraine and Egwene have all said this in one form or the other, IIRC. Now it could be a total coincidence that the women who have the ability to split their flows more than most AS are also some of the strongest in the Tower, but the Aes Sedai wisdom on this would be easily testable. If they frequently saw weaker sisters show better ability to split their flows than some stronger ones, they'd not have so easily concluded strength is a factor.

She could do at least three or four things at once with the Power, something only Egwene and Nynaeve could match.

That's Elayne in TSR. We've seen Moiraine do three things at once, I think, and even as late as LoC, Egwene says this:

Logain jerked up onto his knees, snarling, and she embraced saidar and had him wrapped securely in flows of Air in the space of a heartbeat. The sisters shielding him had all their strength directed into that— another custom; you must use every bit of your strength to shield a man—but several could split their weaves, and one might have diverted part to him if they thought he might harm her. She did not want to risk him being injured.

Splitting your weaves does appear, on the whole, to not be all that common an ability, and 3-4 seems pretty hard. We've only seen Rand, Lanfear and Egwene go well above that, and probably Graendal in the Last Battle.

Yes, in the sense that they designed better, more efficient weaves, which require less saidar to accomplish effect X than a male version of the weave requires saidin for the same effect, therefore you cannot compare the strengths of men and women simply by comparing the amount of OP they can handle, you need to factor in the fact female weaves are more "energy efficient".
I don't think its that they actively designed better weaves to make up for their lower strength. Instead, I think something about saidar just makes weaves easier:

He thought of it as a tube, at least, though it was not. The weave did not form at all as he expected it to. As if saidar had a mind of its own, the weave took on convolutions and spirals that made him think of a flower

Saidar seems to be designed for greater convolution, and even though Rand didn't want it to, it achieved the effect he wanted by taking on a more complex form. The same weave with saidin wouldn't have such spirals and convolutions.

We *think* at this point that it probably means a woman from any level matches any man 6 (or 3) levels higher than her on the scale and that, like all the rest of matters concerning the scale so far, it's probably purely linear, true from the top of the scale to the bottom. But we haven't found hard evidence of this yet. It's just logical deductions.
I think another piece of evidence that any woman matches a man 3-6 levels above her is this:

regarding the percentage of women who could test for the shawl, it would be 62.5% of the bell-curve… The question doesn't really apply to men, since the Black Tower accepts anyone who can learn to channel, but if the White Tower limits were applied, it would be roughly 65.4% of the bell-curve. Although, considering the effectiveness question, they should probably set it at the same 62.5%.

That 2.9% difference between men and women must account for the 3-6 levels, and I think RJ saying that effectiveness makes the percentage the same for the entirety of the male and female populations makes it clear that it isn't just the top woman who can match the top man. Woman just strong enough to be Aes Sedai can also match men who're several levels stronger. A man with Daigian's exact strength would thus not make Aes Sedai.

sleepinghour
05-13-2014, 03:56 PM
She also looks like Isabelle Adjani in Queen Margot, and that certainly beats a young Cher by a long shot.

This was the first image that came up (http://www.imdb.com/media/rm3365051648/tt0110963?ref_=ttmi_mi_all_prd_8), and that's definitely an appropriate look for Berelain. :) How many characters did RJ assign actor lookalikes to? I'm assuming mostly the main characters and a few second-tier ones, but it wouldn't come as a complete surprise either to learn he had a actress suggestion for every single Aes Sedai...

fionwe1987
05-13-2014, 04:22 PM
So, had Rand allowed LTT to help, he would have beaten her, but obviously he didn't because he's an idiot. There's also Lanfear taunting Sammael about how he never managed to beat LTT. And she also points out that she didn't want to launch a frontal assault against superior forces, that is against Rand. Which might just be her misleading the Forsaken in terms of how much Rand knows at this point.
Yes, Rand could have ended it. So could Lanfear. She was toying with him, he was reluctant to hurt a woman. Neither was bringing their complete destructive abilities to the table. Rand thinks if he let LTT have his way, he could wrap her in fire, or hit her with lightning. We know she can do these things with as much ease. Heck, we saw her kill hundreds of Aiel in moments with fire. Which is why I don't take the duel between them to be a sign of either being superior.

While Rand would have no chance against Lanfear due to how untrained he is, LTT evidently excelled at fighting to a greater degree than any channeller we know of. We is basically what LTT is all about. It's not that Lanfear and other Forsaken you mentioned are bad, it's just that LTT is really good.
I have no doubt he was good. But I've seen no evidence that he's better than them. He well might be, but I'm not sure at all. Graendal, for example, seemed incredibly skilled in aMoL. Not sure how much of that is Brandon and how much is in the notes about her, but I doubt we'd see LTT outclass her.

That's... kind of a shame. It seems far more interesting to me to have dexterity allow equal proficiency but through different weaves. Like how gateways are made for instance. If all dexterity does is "reinforce" your weave, then it's just strength under a different name.
Its not "reinforcing". I think it boils down to weave efficiency. Saidar allows for more complex weave design. In fact, it almost seems to force it. Women are just working with a power that lends itself to more complex weaves, and that complexity means you can put in a less strength to achieve the same effect.

Davian93
05-13-2014, 04:26 PM
LTT was the greatest channeler of his Age...by definition he was better than either of them.

fionwe1987
05-13-2014, 04:41 PM
LTT was the greatest channeler of his Age...by definition he was better than either of them.
Greatest channeler isn't the same as greatest at fighting, though.

Master Ablar
05-13-2014, 05:37 PM
Yes, Rand could have ended it. So could Lanfear. She was toying with him, he was reluctant to hurt a woman. Neither was bringing their complete destructive abilities to the table. Rand thinks if he let LTT have his way, he could wrap her in fire, or hit her with lightning. We know she can do these things with as much ease. Heck, we saw her kill hundreds of Aiel in moments with fire. Which is why I don't take the duel between them to be a sign of either being superior.


She could have ended it against Rand certainly, because she had the upper hand. But against LTT? I doubt it. For one person to be able to "end" it when they please, they must clearly have the upper hand, so for LTT to do so against her, he must be the better fighter. That, or LTT knows of a specific weakness of Lanfear (like Galad with Valda in their duel) that would give him an advantage against her.


I have no doubt he was good. But I've seen no evidence that he's better than them. He well might be, but I'm not sure at all. Graendal, for example, seemed incredibly skilled in aMoL. Not sure how much of that is Brandon and how much is in the notes about her, but I doubt we'd see LTT outclass her.


Well we already have Sammael as per Lanfear, Lanfear herself if I am correct in my interpretation of RJ words, Ishamael as the Gates of Paaran Disen (Ishamael was not a general, and I doubt he would mention anything but a personal duel to LTT), and Demandred who said LTT was than him at everything during the War of Power (apart from being a general) which would include fighting. Which leaves Graendal who certainly did well against third agers with limited knowledge but who would not face Rand directly in Arad Doman, though admittedly that's just not her way of doing things and Semirhage. So that's 4 (or 3) out of 6 already and 2 of them, Sammael and Demandred, are warriors. Semirhage was an interrogator, Ishamael was the DO's number 2, Lanfear seems to have worked mainly in the TAR, and Graendal I don't recall, except that she murdered children.

He was also among the greatest swordsmen, which is unrelated to his skill at fighting with the Power, but reinforces the notion that he's a good fighter period, and that anything he has skill in, he tends to be either the best in, or very close to the best, depending on how objective Demandred is on his own and LTT's skill in generalship.

Dom
05-13-2014, 07:02 PM
That's Elayne in TSR. We've seen Moiraine do three things at once, I think, and even as late as LoC, Egwene says this:

She could do at least three or four things at once with the Power, something only Egwene and Nynaeve could match.

Ah, that quote. It's what I thought. There's an explanation attached to it (or to the scene in KOD in which Egwene split her flows to show off in class) in the notes. You can consider the conclusion reached by Egwene to be somewhat on the erroneous side, or maybe misinterpreted by readers (as I don't think, IRRC, that Egwene necessarily drew a conclusion from her observation). The real reason can be puzzled out from other facts in the series.

Splitting your weaves does appear, on the whole, to not be all that common an ability

Few characters could do it in the series.

I don't think its that they actively designed better weaves to make up for their lower strength. Instead, I think something about saidar just makes weaves easier:

Yes, that was the sense of my statement. I too believe it has purely to do with the nature of saidar and the way it's controlled. The calmness of saidar and the nature of the women's embrace and guidance of it allows "fancier" and more energy efficient weaves. I don't think women do it by design, it's just how saidar works. But saidin isn't inferior. What it can't achieve through finesse, it achieves with more strength. I'm pretty one of the best illustration (if we had the data to make it for real) would be to compare the size of a male gateway and female gateway. If the duo is on the same strength level, the female gateway will likely be larger, while if the man is 6 levels above her, they would be roughly equivalent.

That 2.9% difference between men and women must account for the 3-6 levels, and I think RJ saying that effectiveness makes the percentage the same for the entirety of the male and female populations makes it clear that it isn't just the top woman who can match the top man. Woman just strong enough to be Aes Sedai can also match men who're several levels stronger. A man with Daigian's exact strength would thus not make Aes Sedai.

That's good to know the maths seem to support this. Thanks.

fionwe1987
05-13-2014, 11:34 PM
Ah, that quote. It's what I thought. There's an explanation attached to it (or to the scene in KOD in which Egwene split her flows to show off in class) in the notes.
Any chance you can share the gist of it?
You can consider the conclusion reached by Egwene to be somewhat on the erroneous side, or maybe misinterpreted by readers (as I don't think, IRRC, that Egwene necessarily drew a conclusion from her observation). The real reason can be puzzled out from other facts in the series.
Egwene herself drew different conclusions from Elayne. Elayne was stating as fact that apart from Nynaeve and Egwene, no one could do three or four things at once. She might have been wrong, but we don't know that for sure. There is an Egwene quote that contradicts it though:

Drawing a deep breath, she embraced saidar and channeled four flows before the Windfinder could react. So she knew weather, did she? Could she divide her flows four ways? Not many Aes Sedai could.
This implies at least some Aes Sedai can split their flow four ways.

Egwene's conclusions were both right and wrong:

With so many exclaiming over their strength - everyone said she and Elayne would be among the strongest Aes Sedai, if not the strongest, in a thousand years or more - she had assumed they were as strong as he. Near to it, at least. She had just been rudely disabused. Perhaps Nynaeve could come close, if she was angry enough, but Egwene knew she herself could never have done what he just had, split her flows that many ways, worked that many things at once. Working two flows at once was far more than twice as hard as working one of the same magnitude, and working three much more than twice again working two. He had to have been weaving a dozen. He did not even look tired, yet exertion with the Power took energy.
She was obviously wrong about the underlined part (though her thought might have been the impetus for her to practice enough with the Power to give it the lie). She's right about the bolded part. It does take more effort to work more weaves at once.

If Rand indeed cannot go above 12, and Egwen can do 14, then the idea that the ability to split weaves is tied to strength is disproved. But we don't know what exactly Rand's limit is. In KoD, he stopped himself with six deathgates/blossoms of fire, but these were also more complex weaves.

Few characters could do it in the series.
Seems that way, yes.

Yes, that was the sense of my statement. I too believe it has purely to do with the nature of saidar and the way it's controlled. The calmness of saidar and the nature of the women's embrace and guidance of it allows "fancier" and more energy efficient weaves. I don't think women do it by design, it's just how saidar works. But saidin isn't inferior. What it can't achieve through finesse, it achieves with more strength. I'm pretty one of the best illustration (if we had the data to make it for real) would be to compare the size of a male gateway and female gateway. If the duo is on the same strength level, the female gateway will likely be larger, while if the man is 6 levels above her, they would be roughly equivalent.
Agreed.

GonzoTheGreat
05-14-2014, 04:02 AM
"We are not done yet," Egwene said gently. More gently than she felt – she wanted to box his ears; the idea of picking her up like that, shielding her – and Elayne – but he was on the ragged edge. Of what, she did not know, and she did not want to find out, not now, not here. With so many exclaiming over their strength – everyone said she and Elayne would be among the strongest Aes Sedai, if not the strongest, in a thousand years or more – she had assumed they were as strong as he. Near to it, at least. She had just been rudely disabused. Perhaps Nynaeve could come close, if she was angry enough, but Egwene knew she herself could never have done what he just had, split her flows that many ways, worked that many things at once. Working two flows at once was far more than twice as hard as working one of the same magnitude, and working three much more than twice again working two. He had to have been weaving a dozen. He did not even look tired, yet exertion with the Power took energy. She very much feared he could handle her and Elayne both like kittens. Kittens he might decide to drown, if he went mad.
Now, it is of course possible that it is different for men than for women, but this quote at least tells us why it is that most women can't split their flows into many separate parts: because the difficulty rises exponentially.

So using two flows is more than twice as difficult as using one. Using three more than four times as difficult, using four more than eight times as difficult, using 5 more than 16 times, using 6 more than 32 times, and so forth.
For a woman, at least. I haven't really found explicit confirmation that it works the same for men.

Terez
05-14-2014, 04:19 AM
I started a thread for one particular detail from the notes: The White Tower and Sexuality (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=8353).

Davian93
05-14-2014, 09:51 AM
Egwene herself drew different conclusions from Elayne. Elayne was stating as fact that apart from Nynaeve and Egwene, no one could do three or four things at once. She might have been wrong, but we don't know that for sure. There is an Egwene quote that contradicts it though:

A couple thoughts here...first, this is very early in Egwene's education so her knowledge of all things channeling is somewhat suspect at best. For oen, I highly doubt that the Aes Sedai go max effort in front of students or other Aes Sedai for a variety of reasons. They are all very secretive as it is and dont like to show off their "tricks" so to speak so this wouldn't surprise me. They also tend to lie through omission. So Egwene's basis for "AS can't split their weaves more than 3-4 ways" could very well be wholly based off her experiences in class mostly as a Novice watching the poor AS that was dumb enough to get roped into instruction that day.

On the Deathgates/Blossoms of Fire, I'd imagine that the more powerful the weave is, the harder it is to split ones threads so Rand's limitations of 6 & 6 could have been due to that...whereas he could probably do a couple dozen very small weaves but he was essentially lobing a half dozen nuclear One Power bombs at Trollocs at the same time. He was also likely pacing himself given that it was a major battle and he didnt want to blow his load all at once in one big mass effort weave. Deathgates, like any gateway (unless you're a stupid tertiary character with a special "skill") take a fairly large amount of OP to weave all by themselves. To do a half dozen fairly large ones at the same time is a pretty tough feat all by itself. To continually do it while doin dozens of other weaves of significant power is pretty advanced Channeling.

fionwe1987
05-14-2014, 12:01 PM
Now, it is of course possible that it is different for men than for women, but this quote at least tells us why it is that most women can't split their flows into many separate parts: because the difficulty rises exponentially.

So using two flows is more than twice as difficult as using one. Using three more than four times as difficult, using four more than eight times as difficult, using 5 more than 16 times, using 6 more than 32 times, and so forth.
For a woman, at least. I haven't really found explicit confirmation that it works the same for men.
There is some conflicting evidence from Egwene herself, though:

She felt a lightning bolt form, or the potential for one, and nearly stumbled. She had never before channeled two flows at once; it did not seem difficult at all.

Before the first words were out of the woman’s mouth, Egwene reached for saidar again, wove the complicated flow of Spirit as she remembered it being used against her, and cut Joiya Byir off from the Source.
The Darkfriend’s eyes widened, those cruel eyes so incongruous in that beautiful, kindly face, but Egwene was already weaving Air. The other woman’s form might seem like mist, but the bonds held it. It seemed to Egwene that there was no effort involved in holding both flows in their weaving.

And...

She tied off and set the flows of her weavings before she knew she had done it, then paused to study what she had done. Three separate weavings, and not only had it been no trouble to hold them all at once, but now she had done something so they would maintain themselves. She thought she could remember how, too. And it might be useful.


Two possible explanations:

1) Egwene was just speculating about the difficulties of splitting your flows based on what she'd seen of other Aes Sedai.

2) It generally is just that hard, but she's a whiz at it and the normal rules don't apply to her.

Either is possible, though no. 2 seems more likely given how much more she's able to split her weaves even with Forkroot in her, and still not mention any sense of strain.

A couple thoughts here...first, this is very early in Egwene's education so her knowledge of all things channeling is somewhat suspect at best. For oen, I highly doubt that the Aes Sedai go max effort in front of students or other Aes Sedai for a variety of reasons. They are all very secretive as it is and dont like to show off their "tricks" so to speak so this wouldn't surprise me. They also tend to lie through omission. So Egwene's basis for "AS can't split their weaves more than 3-4 ways" could very well be wholly based off her experiences in class mostly as a Novice watching the poor AS that was dumb enough to get roped into instruction that day.
I think you mean Elayne here? And yes, I can agree with the idea that Aes Sedai don't show their fullest abilities.
On the Deathgates/Blossoms of Fire, I'd imagine that the more powerful the weave is, the harder it is to split ones threads so Rand's limitations of 6 & 6 could have been due to that...whereas he could probably do a couple dozen very small weaves but he was essentially lobing a half dozen nuclear One Power bombs at Trollocs at the same time. He was also likely pacing himself given that it was a major battle and he didnt want to blow his load all at once in one big mass effort weave. Deathgates, like any gateway (unless you're a stupid tertiary character with a special "skill") take a fairly large amount of OP to weave all by themselves. To do a half dozen fairly large ones at the same time is a pretty tough feat all by itself. To continually do it while doin dozens of other weaves of significant power is pretty advanced Channeling.
That's what I said. Though, in aMoL, Egwene does make 12 columns of fire. But there can be several arguments against that counting:

1) She was desperate and furious.
2) She had a sa'angreal (though she was exhausted).
3) Brandon wrote the scene.

Terez
05-14-2014, 02:57 PM
RJ always said he could have written the last scene of the series in 1984 when he first started working on the story. His idea for the last scene in the early days was simply that Rand would fake his own death, and that "Moiraine, Elayne, Eguene and others of his closest friends" would be in on the secret and would accompany him into the sunset. (Don't read too much into "Eguene"; a ridiculous number of things changed from these early outlines.) This isn't from one of the earliest outlines; Moiraine was once Imorgaine and Elayne was Elyn.

fionwe1987
05-14-2014, 03:36 PM
RJ always said he could have written the last scene of the series in 1984 when he first started working on the story. His idea for the last scene in the early days was simply that Rand would fake his own death, and that "Moiraine, Elayne, Eguene and others of his closest friends" would be in on the secret and would accompany him into the sunset. (Don't read too much into "Eguene"; a ridiculous number of things changed from these early outlines.) This isn't from one of the earliest outlines; Moiraine was once Imorgaine and Elayne was Elyn.
I'm not reading too much into this, but any idea when in the series RJ decided that Egwene would die? I know there are clues to her death buried in the text, but they're very subtle, almost as if RJ was leaving himself room for things to go either way.

Terez
05-14-2014, 03:43 PM
No, nothing in RJ's notes that I have seen. For a long time she was supposed to get pregnant and Galad was going to pledge to Gawyn (as he lay dying) to watch over her. Don't read too much into that, either; for a while we were convinced that Brandon had made Sheriam Black because she was clearly not Black in a lot of the notes, and RJ even commented about why the Black Ajah didn't bother with putting members in high positions in Salidar. And then in later notes, RJ had finally decided she was Black and made various notes on things she might have affected. (It was probably much the same with Sorilea; he planted things that gave him room to make her a Darkfriend, but it was always an option.)

Also, I just read another bit that is more explicit about Moiraine, Elayne and Eguene being "the three women" who follow him at the end, in a passage about his lovers.

fionwe1987
05-14-2014, 04:00 PM
No, nothing in RJ's notes that I have seen. For a long time she was supposed to get pregnant and Galad was going to pledge to Gawyn (as he lay dying) to watch over her. Don't read too much into that, either; for a while we were convinced that Brandon had made Sheriam Black because she was clearly not Black in a lot of the notes, and RJ even commented about why the Black Ajah didn't bother with putting members in high positions in Salidar. And then in later notes, RJ had finally decided she was Black and made various notes on things she might have affected. (It was probably much the same with Sorilea; he planted things that gave him room to make her a Darkfriend, but it was always an option.)
Yeah, these do seem to be fluid things. For Sorelia, a lot of the events around her could point to her being DF, but RJ wrote her in a way that screamed she wasn't. Which caused all the debate here when tGS was released.

Sheriam... eh. In the end, I don't think I cared so much. She was a lot less interesting since aCoS, and making her Black made for an easy way for Egwene to replace her, and also for her to make her case about the BA to the Rebel Hall.

Egwene: I thought she'd have a baby. There were hints, from her Accepted test to Sorelia saying her hips were made for carrying children (:rolleyes:), to her being so influenced by the Wise Ones, who have kids unlike the Aes Sedai. I guess it would have gone into too dark territory for her to be pregnant just before the LB, and deciding to fight on and kill herself anyway.

Also, I just read another bit that is more explicit about Moiraine, Elayne and Eguene being "the three women" who follow him at the end, in a passage about his lovers.
Seems like the names were less important than the roles these characters were to play, which is exactly as it should be.

Terez
05-14-2014, 04:19 PM
Well, Moiraine and "Eguene" had character traits at that point, most of which survived. RJ already planned for Rand to find a lover among the female Aiel warriors which he had not quite named yet, but she wasn't to be quite as important as Elayne and Eguene (who were more important than Moiraine). Min was the last to be developed.

fionwe1987
05-14-2014, 07:32 PM
Well, Moiraine and "Eguene" had character traits at that point, most of which survived.
Any chance you can discuss these traits? I doubt they're going to be in the encyclopedia. It'd be interesting to know what features of these women were conceived at the earliest.

Dom
05-14-2014, 09:15 PM
Any chance you can share the gist of it?

Hmm... some of it, why not.

This was about splitting flows and the conclusion that it is dependent on strength being somewhat erroneous.

The "somewhat" is only because it is true that for Third Age channelers (AS at least, maybe all) there is a correlation with strength (as observed in the series), but it's an effect, not the cause. In the AOL, this wasn't strength related at all. A woman of Daighian's strength could have developed the skills to handle as many flows as a woman of Lanfear's strength. She might have run out of saidar if those weaves were power intensive, but with an angreal that's remedied.

The WT training methods are very flawed and in this specific case akin to shooting yourself in the foot. They've lost the knowledge of something fundamental about the training of channelers, or at least they are far from realizing how important this factor truly is, and thus they've undermined their powers a lot, and for those already trained, it's for good.

That's the gist of it and it should be easy to puzzle out why it became strength related and average/middling AS can't split flows, why a few of the strongest women can handle 2 or three, and why Nynaeve, Egwene, Elayne have become so good at it already. I don't know if they already match or not AOL standards for this (possibly in the # of flows, maybe not yet in the complexity of the weaves they can make when handling many at once), or if they ever will - but maybe.

fionwe1987
05-14-2014, 10:25 PM
Thanks Dom, that's very interesting.



The "somewhat" is only because it is true that for Third Age channelers (AS at least, maybe all) there is a correlation with strength (as observed in the series), but it's an effect, not the cause. In the AOL, this wasn't strength related at all. A woman of Daighian's strength could have developed the skills to handle as many flows as a woman of Lanfear's strength. She might have run out of saidar if those weaves were power intensive, but with an angreal that's remedied.
Well, that puts the final nail in the coffin for the idea that dexterity is about handling more weaves at once.
The WT training methods are very flawed and in this specific case akin to shooting yourself in the foot. They've lost the knowledge of something fundamental about the training of channelers, or at least they are far from realizing how important this factor truly is, and thus they've undermined their powers a lot, and for those already trained, it's for good.
Interesting. This seems to be kind of like how they move their hands in specific ways when they channel. Once learned that way, they're unable to divorce the actions from the weave. So their inability to split flows many ways is self-imposed too huh. Very interesting.
That's the gist of it and it should be easy to puzzle out why it became strength related and average/middling AS can't split flows, why a few of the strongest women can handle 2 or three, and why Nynaeve, Egwene, Elayne have become so good at it already. I don't know if they already match or not AOL standards for this (possibly in the # of flows, maybe not yet in the complexity of the weaves they can make when handling many at once), or if they ever will - but maybe.
It'd be interesting to find that out. There does seem to be some inconsistency with the whole splitting of flows business. Everyone from Cadsuane to Egwene implies that when you split your flow of saidar into multiple weaves, the amount of OP required for each weave is reduced. Yet in KoD, Egwene is able to make fourteen weaves of equal strength despite being able to access a trickle, yet each seems to be as strong as the single fireball she originally produced (which was clearly as strong as she could make it). Same with Rand. All his strength can only make a 4 paces by four gateway, yet he can make at least six Deathgates of that size simultaneously. Seems like he can apply his full strength to each weave.

I wonder if that isn't the great advantage the Foresaken have. Maybe they know how to split their flow so that each weave receives all of their strength, kind of like a number of electrical outlets in a parallel circuit receiving the same voltage. The Aes Sedai, on the other hand, may only be making these weaves in series. Every new weave requires you to split off the strength of the flow of the OP into you, meaning once you go beyond a few weaves, you have no more OP to give any fresh weave. Hence, major limitations in the number of weaves Aes Sedai can maintain at once.

Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve seem to have stumbled upon the alternate, and not even realized they're doing it differently than the other Aes Sedai.

GonzoTheGreat
05-15-2014, 03:38 AM
Egwene: I thought she'd have a baby. There were hints, from her Accepted test to Sorelia saying her hips were made for carrying children (:rolleyes:), to her being so influenced by the Wise Ones, who have kids unlike the Aes Sedai. I guess it would have gone into too dark territory for her to be pregnant just before the LB, and deciding to fight on and kill herself anyway.
She could have given birth during the Last Battle while fighting M'Hael, and then after she died, Tam could have found the baby. Wouldn't that have made a nice political mess? :p

That's the gist of it and it should be easy to puzzle out why it became strength related and average/middling AS can't split flows, why a few of the strongest women can handle 2 or three, and why Nynaeve, Egwene, Elayne have become so good at it already. I don't know if they already match or not AOL standards for this (possibly in the # of flows, maybe not yet in the complexity of the weaves they can make when handling many at once), or if they ever will - but maybe.
I sort of doubt that Egwene will figure it out in time, but who knows?

Terez
05-15-2014, 05:39 AM
Any chance you can discuss these traits? I doubt they're going to be in the encyclopedia. It'd be interesting to know what features of these women were conceived at the earliest.
Egwene was, at the time of the above quote, the girl he grew up with, and many of Moiraine's very early Morgan le Fay attributes had already been transferred to an as-yet-unnamed character who became Elaida; Moiraine herself was at this time a strong Merlin parallel, with her experience in Finnland (at its most basic) being her most defined role. So RJ knew very early on that he wanted his Merlin/Gandalf character to be a woman. Moiraine was still slated to become Amyrlin (probably after her 'underworld' experience); Siuan hadn't yet been conceived, nor Egwene becoming Amyrlin.

If I had to guess I'd put the above quote at 1986, or 1985 at earliest. (The outlines went through a few phases before this one.) It will take some work to be able to date it more firmly than that. It's also difficult to really date anything because we don't know how fast RJ moved at any given time; the best we can do is demonstrate an order of progression.

Dom
05-15-2014, 09:11 AM
Moiraine was still slated to become Amyrlin (probably after her 'underworld' experience); Siuan hadn't yet been conceived, nor Egwene becoming Amyrlin.


I'll add that there is a surprisingly low amount of hints in the very early notes about some characters who became important.

The "gist" of it is an idea to have a young man, an Aes Sedai who came to fetch him, and a woman from home that came along. The character of the young man is pretty much Rand's "Guenièvre", but RJ seems to have not all that much more than that to define her early on. She seems to have emerged as we know her in a later phase of development. She appears already formed in the first document that also mention Perrin/Mat.

It is only late in the game (judging from final EOTW ideas emerging in those documents) that characters like Perrin, Mat appeared (still with no hint of the ta'veren concept in documented form anyway, but other characteristics were there in primitive form), and Egwene becomes more than a vague idea. One of the earliest seed of Mat-Perrin is a vague mention that some of the allusions to our legends/mythology could be fulfilled by "companions" rather than by Rand. What might surprise is that ideas for some characters, like the ones that would become Gawyn and Galad, have emerged even before Mat-Perrin, like is the case with much that originates from the Arthurian core (but as you pointed out, the Arthurian elements where for a while extremely fluid, with many different permutations. So many that some ended up being unrecognizable or close. Some of that seems intentional (perverting legends), others seem to have come more organically, by developing story points.

As you also mentioned, Elaida originates from such a "divorce" from the purely Arthurian themes/plot points, at one time far more blunt and closer to the Arthurian context, incestuous relations and what not (only a pale shadow of the "lover of his aunt" thing remained, with Rand's worries about the Tigraine-Elayne blood ties).

fionwe1987
05-15-2014, 02:18 PM
She could have given birth during the Last Battle while fighting M'Hael, and then after she died, Tam could have found the baby. Wouldn't that have made a nice political mess? :p

Why would it be a political mess? The Amyrlin's child (if there has ever been one in the past) is accorded no special privileges. All he/she has is being a somewhat important noble in House Trakand.

Moiraine was still slated to become Amyrlin (probably after her 'underworld' experience); Siuan hadn't yet been conceived, nor Egwene becoming Amyrlin.

Thanks for sharing. A long time ago in wotmania, Dom or Linda had a theory that Siuan initially went to Salidar with the intention of making Moiraine Amyrlin, and that her "death" forced Siuan to come up with a plan where Egwene ended up Amyrlin. Maybe RJ still had the original plan in mind when he wrote those scenes, which caused some of that to bleed out.

I'm not saying he still intended that as of EotW, btw. It seems clear that by the time it was published, Egwene was already established as future Amyrlin. Too many patterns/foreshadowings etc point to that.

If I had to guess I'd put the above quote at 1986, or 1985 at earliest. (The outlines went through a few phases before this one.) It will take some work to be able to date it more firmly than that. It's also difficult to really date anything because we don't know how fast RJ moved at any given time; the best we can do is demonstrate an order of progression.

Even if we don't have firm dates, an eventual story of the evolution of the story would be fascinating. I'd love to read that and then reread the books, to see if we can catch glimpses of RJ's evolving intentions.

Dom
05-15-2014, 03:32 PM
Egwene was already established as future Amyrlin. Too many patterns/foreshadowings etc point to that.

Very probably. One thing we discovered reading some of the notes is that we underestimated RJ's skills at "reverse engineering", that is... he put a lot of seeds (or hooks) in the story, and he was very good, when he had new ideas for a story arc, at tweaking them a bit so the "seeds" became foreshadowing for this new direction, and as for patterns, he reused some twisted elements from earlier scenes in his a new story arc, and magivally it all fitted together as if it had been planned this way all along. That explains why a few more obvious "seeds" never grew.. they were "options" and they simply became "red herrings".

But I agree it's very likely, near certain I would say, that by the time of the final EOTW he had decided that Egwene would be Amyrlin.

A caveat, though: some story arcs were essentially the same in spirit/themes and psychological developments, but RJ had considered wholly different settings/stories for some. One example: RJ knew Perrin would be sent on a mission in the south that would test his leadership abilities to the breaking point (threatening Faile's life, etc.), as his final challenge before TG began. OTOH, circa ACOS RJ considered sending him to deal with the Shaido after reports they were in the south, or to try to quell the rebellion of the Tairen High Lords in Haddon Mirk. In the end, he rather chose the Shaido to bump into, but decided Perrin would be sent for Alliandre and Masema. Some things were really very fluid.

fionwe1987
05-15-2014, 04:05 PM
Very probably. One thing we discovered reading some of the notes is that we underestimated RJ's skills at "reverse engineering", that is... he put a lot of seeds (or hooks) in the story, and he was very good, when he had new ideas for a story arc, at tweaking them a bit so the "seeds" became foreshadowing for this new direction, and as for patterns, he reused some twisted elements from earlier scenes in his a new story arc, and magivally it all fitted together as if it had been planned this way all along. That explains why a few more obvious "seeds" never grew.. they were "options" and they simply became "red herrings".

But I agree it's very likely, near certain I would say, that by the time of the final EOTW he had decided that Egwene would be Amyrlin.

A caveat, though: some story arcs were essentially the same in spirit/themes and psychological developments, but RJ had considered wholly different settings/stories for some. One example: RJ knew Perrin would be sent on a mission in the south that would test his leadership abilities to the breaking point (threatening Faile's life, etc.), as his final challenge before TG began. OTOH, circa ACOS RJ considered sending him to deal with the Shaido after reports they were in the south, or to try to quell the rebellion of the Tairen High Lords in Haddon Mirk. In the end, he rather chose the Shaido to bump into, but decided Perrin would be sent for Alliandre and Masema. Some things were really very fluid.
Interesting. I find it remarkable that he was able to reverse engineer these foreshadowings. They're almost elegantly done retcons, then, but not easily detectable.

This could explain why there were so many fan theories that seemed very likely, yet didn't pan out. By the end of aMoL, I got a feeling that RJ had left himself open to many endings, all of which had support from the foreshadowings. Its almost like how there are variations in how the Pattern deals with these epoch events. Several of our theories might pan out in another turning of the Wheel, because RJ wrote it with that in mind, almost.

PS: Not sure if I made myself all that clear here. What I'm trying to say is that RJ leaving things open and fluid works here because the world's mechanics allow for multiple variations of events with broadly similar characters to occur in different turnings.

To take once example: I was certain a Lanfear-Egwene face-off was coming. The themes and hints and foreshadowing were too good. As it was, we really didn't get a direct face off. Instead, they "faced off" in how they affected Rand, and in his final conversations with them, which were still rich with mirroring and parallels.

But that's okay, because in some other turning, with broadly similar characters, this could indeed happen. RJ left many such things open and possible, it seems. Some became "red herrings", but only for this turning. Thematically, they are still possible, and could still lead to the same end result.

Dom
05-15-2014, 10:03 PM
Yes, I think it's something like that indeed.

He had tons of "mini cycles" repeating themselves over and over with variants during the series. Some of the most obvious ones like the "Wondergirls getting captured" cycle ended up irritating some readers,. Another, much more subtle, was the "unlikely Warder" pattern, which started with Elayne and Birgitte and was repeated for Egwene-Egeanin, Nynaeve-Lan - the three in very dramatic circumstances. Another was the foreshadowing at Taren Ferry of Moiraine going in Sindhol after destroying the Portal. Yet another was the "wolf chase to save Faile", which was repeated in a much more elaborate fashion than in TDR with her capture by the Shaido. Those repetitions were intentional. He wanted us to be conscious, on some level, that the greater Pattern was formed of many smaller patterns.

Brandon caught up on that, and when he wrote AMOL he introduced more of those to fill some holes left by RJ (Faile having to deliver the Horn was one such, most likely), by re using elements from old scenes and trying to bring some things full circle. Others were created all along by RJ, including the "book ends".. from the dark stranger on the road of chapter 1 and the bonfires of Bel Tine burning trollocs to Rand becoming the dark stranger on the road as his funeral pyre was burning.

There are more hints of variants in early and not so early notes. It really took RJ a long time to give up his "vendetta" against the Arthurian Ser Galahad (that character seems to have really rubbed him the wrong way for some reason... he is uber-annoyingly perfect in some versions of the cycle) and drop the idea of making Rand and Galad mortal enemies (turning Galahad into Mordred, essentially) . There are hints of two ideas he had to spark the conflict, one for TGH that he abandoned (that likely involved Galad turning into Lancelot stealing Arthur's queen...), and one more try for TFOH that would have been more political (and one more in the earliest drafts, when Galad was Rand's cousin, the son of Tigraine's sister who took Rand as her lover, sparking the enmity with her son Galad who joined the Shadow for it). It seems to be around TSR/TFOH only that RJ finally decided that of the two Arthurian figures he had seemed to have made some personal mission of corrupting/torturing/mocking (Ser Galahad and Gawain), the one with the personal conflict over Egwene/Elayne and his "dead" mother would be Gawyn, not Galad.

Some of the early ideas for Galad and his hatred/envy/jealousy of Rand, their conflict over a woman, seemed to have evolved in a way into Demandred's character, who is a kind of anti-Galahad.

fionwe1987
05-15-2014, 11:06 PM
Talking of Demandred, we never did get an explanation of LTT's comment that he wanted Ilyena. That would have completed the parallels to Gawyn, who is a much weaker mirror of Demandred: brought up to be second to his sister, jealous of Rand, etc. Its fitting he was swatted away like a fly while Demandred waited (futilely) for the man Gawyn is jealous of. Demandred's own end is similar in that he dies awaiting the glory he thinks he deserves.

And frankly, Egwene and Galad always made more sense to me than Egwene and Gawyn. Even if the story didn't go in the original direction of Rand and Galad becoming mortal enemies, I still think the tension would have been greater if Egwene fell for Rand's half brother, and Gawyn ended up the Whitecloak.

Either way, RJ seems to have twisted/turned the story of Gwenevere the most of all the Arthurian parallels. If anything, his version of Gwenevere is probably one of the more positive spins on the character, with the white ghost/evil seductress aspects being transferred to Lanfear. Its no wonder so many parallels existed between those two.

GonzoTheGreat
05-16-2014, 03:38 AM
Why would it be a political mess? The Amyrlin's child (if there has ever been one in the past) is accorded no special privileges. All he/she has is being a somewhat important noble in House Trakand.
Let's see:
The DR was the son of a female leader who gave birth and died during the ultimate battle of the conflict of her time. The Amyrlin's child would be the son of a female leader who gave birth and died during the ultimate battle of the conflict of her time.
The DR was found by Tam al'Thor, the Dragon Finder. The Amyrlin's child would now be found by Tam al'Thor, the Dragon Finder.
The DR dies at about the same time as the Amyrlin's son is born, so his soul was available for rebirth (don't worry over precise timing, that's screwed up anyway).

So how long would it be before someone claimed that the Amyrlin's son was the Dragon Reborn reborn?

Very probably. One thing we discovered reading some of the notes is that we underestimated RJ's skills at "reverse engineering", that is... he put a lot of seeds (or hooks) in the story, and he was very good, when he had new ideas for a story arc, at tweaking them a bit so the "seeds" became foreshadowing for this new direction, and as for patterns, he reused some twisted elements from earlier scenes in his a new story arc, and magivally it all fitted together as if it had been planned this way all along. That explains why a few more obvious "seeds" never grew.. they were "options" and they simply became "red herrings".
Another way of looking at it is that those are all variations on the Third Age, and as such would all fall under the "different and yet the same" which RJ says* is true of the Ages in the various Turns of the Wheel. So what he was doing was not write the history of the end of The Third Age, but instead write the history of the end of a Third Age, and during the writing process he was figuring out which specific Third Age he was writing about.

* Not in those precise words, I think. I would be somewhat surprised if I'd cooked up an actual quote here.

Ishara
05-16-2014, 12:42 PM
Others were created all along by RJ, including the "book ends".. from the dark stranger on the road of chapter 1 and the bonfires of Bel Tine burning trollocs to Rand becoming the dark stranger on the road as his funeral pyre was burning.

Love this.

SauceyBlueConfetti
05-16-2014, 04:36 PM
I didn't catch that. Wow.

Terez
05-16-2014, 08:30 PM
Talking of Demandred, we never did get an explanation of LTT's comment that he wanted Ilyena.
He seems to have had a thing for blondes. There is another love interest in Demandred's past. I hope that tidbit will be in the encyclopedia too.

Rand al'Fain
05-17-2014, 11:13 AM
Speaking on the notes Terez, and even a simple yes or no answer would suffice, is there anything on the characters that takes place after the ending of AMOL? Or some hint that RJ had some idea on what to do with any possible outriggers?

Southpaw2012
05-17-2014, 11:33 AM
Love this.

Did he specifically mention in the notes that he wanted it to be noticed that the beginning of book 1 with the dark stranger was to be to paralleled with Rand the stranger at the end of AMoL?

Terez
05-17-2014, 01:02 PM
No.

Dom
05-17-2014, 02:29 PM
Did he specifically mention in the notes that he wanted it to be noticed that the beginning of book 1 with the dark stranger was to be to paralleled with Rand the stranger at the end of AMoL?

No. This doesn't come from RJ's notes, but from my notes and personal observations of the "patterns/mirrors" RJ liked to create. EOTW vs. AMOL are full of them (not that it's in any way limited to those books). I've made lists of elements that might give clues, so they become more obvious when I encounter them.

This one is just very obvious. I had been expecting that the final scene(s) would tie with the first one for many years. I had picked the wrong scene, though. I thought RJ's epilogue would strictly mirror the prologue of EOTW, but it turned out he alluded to several early chapters before ending it with chapter 1.

Some of my notes about the imagery to look for:

- Something to relate to the "Old Quarry Road". Stones, cavern etc. (This was Rand coming out of the SG cavern). The Old Road is also the road to the past.
- A delivery to make (inversion... going free of any goal/mission?)
- A final encounter with Elan Morin, this time he's the one who dies (the transmigration). Inversions? The birth of DM replaced by the collapse of the SG mountain? The
- The sword returns to the end the Quarry Road (Callandor was buried in the cavern).
- Someone has to carry a fevered, dying man through the long night? (I had this wrong, I thought someone, maybe Lews Therin talking in Rand's mind, would convince a dying Rand to get out of SG. It turned out to be the dying Rand carrying the dying Moridin. Tam/the protective father was replaced by the suspicious Cadsuane.)
- The dark stranger on the road.. a thief or a refugee..you blink and he's vanished. (Rand as the Dark Stranger).
- The day is cold, and Tam really wants a good pipe and some hot wine. (Rand's pipe).
- Musings about his girl Egwene he will see (Rand's musings about his three girls, with inversion: he leaves them behind, which will follow him now, if any?)
- Rand, a pure "nobody" must leave in the night because he's mysteriously hunted down, but he's not alone (Rand leaves secretly and laone to have an anonymous life, those who know his secret stay behind. A "sad" Festival do take place after a night of battle against the Shadow, but it is now is fake-funeral that mares a bit the victory celebrations.. The bonfires of EOTW burning Trollocs are now burning Rand.. who is actually no longer in the body).

Etc.

The series is full of those "patterns" with variations. RJ had tons of tricks to make them up and "hide" them, using animals, colors, numbers too, substituting this for that, similar characters for others, symbols, making inversions etc. It was also even in the geography. Just think for instance of the Winespring on the Green as the True Source, which flows swiftly (the OP) banked with silver and white trees (the Aes Sedai).. passes near the ancient Inn, white-washed and built on even older foundations of river rock (the WT and Tar Valon), with a common room with chairs for the council gathered in front of the fire (Sitters and the Falme, ie: the Amyrlin. It is Egwene's home).. the Winespring continues to flow up to the Mill (the Water Wheel, aka the Wheel of Time) and finally divides into many flows that becomes the Water Wood and the Mire (the Pattern). It you look at the map of the Two Rives the right way (the mountains placed to the north), it represents the Tree of Life surrounded by the World River, with the hole from which evil arrives (the Waygate) up "north". This is reproduced in the "big map" with SG up north, the Erinin as the Winespring, the Fingers of the Dragon for the Mire etc.

One more example of "repeating patterns" (one of hundreds through the books, really): Look at the scene in which Alivia chooses for Rand non descript clothes, a weapon not as random as he might have liked, a few possessions, a new horse (horse are a symbol for destiny/fate in WOT... you are the driver and can direct them, but they also bring you where they want sometimes). Rand was now to have a non ta'veren life of free will, with merely a few "stems" of threads given to him by Aliva to do wish as he pleased. He could even control the pattern to an extent, but was wise enough now to understand he couldn't, if he can, hinder free will too much.

Now compare this to the TGH scene in which Rand realized that Moiraine has picked for him very distinctive clothes, branded with Herons and Dragons, put in his bag the Banner of the Dragon. He could choose, she was forcing his hand, bonding him to his destiny... and he thought she had let him go on his own. This too is mirrored in the epilogue.

Speaking on the notes Terez, and even a simple yes or no answer would suffice, is there anything on the characters that takes place after the ending of AMOL? Or some hint that RJ had some idea on what to do with any possible outriggers?

Terez might have seen other things I haven't or have missed, but generally speaking the answer is "no".

The only thing I remember seeing was a fairly succinct mention in a note in and Egwene files about the probable fate of her plans for the White Tower/Kin/Three Oaths/attitude toward male channelers. They basically confirm what we already got as hints in Brandon's books but also in the last books by RJ - and are about as vague as those hints. The Oaths will stay, the plan with the Kin will eventually be accepted, relations with the male channelers will remain ambivalent for many years. The Outriggers seemed to center on Seanchan and were only 5-10 years later. No doubt we would have learned bits and pieces about changes in the Westlands, but typically RJ would have waited to get there before making final decisions, as he wasn't the type to tie his hands too far in advance.

A important clarification, though: as Terez has already pointed out, the files concerning AMOL by RJ or from Brandon's work with TJ are not part of the collection. Not yet and probably not for many years. Most notes regarding the issues you mention are likely in those. Even regarding AMOL issues there's little in the files at the library, mostly stuff that RJ needed to keep fresh in mind to set up in earlier books. Terez has already mentioned some of them, like the plan to have Egwene bonding Egeanin. RJ had put it in notes he used to write the WT story arc that are probably dating from the writing of COT or KOD with a big reminder in his best Dark One voice: MUST SET THIS UP FIRST!!! EGWENE HATES THE SEANCHAN!

He had similar notes about Verin, with another Dark One voice admonition to himself to REMEMBER THE SECRET! (her forceful induction into the BA).

In a general way, he kept mostly in those files what he needed as reference to write a story arc for the current book. Whatever information he had about future events, TG etc. was not in those files, generally, nor any outline for the current book. A lot of more detailed information about the past books that's no longer relevant to the current writing is also not in there.

If someone's interested more in the writing process/tools than in "juicy tidbits", I guess if Terez doesn't mind I could make a more complete description of what is found in a typical "story arc" file from the late series. That would read more like "it has first a complete physical description of the character (sometimes with an actress in a specific role or not given as facial reference), including details as perceived by other characters (this one finds her fat), then comes a complete and descriptive inventory of all the wardrobe (down to how many smallclothes some times... in a TGH file, he also noted at length how everything was organized in Rand's saddlebag.. three pairs of socks above 5 pairs of smallclothes and the banner underneath. It's pretty obsessive if you don't realize this was for continuity if he had Rand opened his bags, which he did) and similar possessions like jewelry or personal items like combs, pipes and the likes etc. currently possessed by her, then there's a section where her current true feelings toward all major players are summarized than anything, though. It's really what you would expect a novelist who has such a huge cast to deal with to keep at hand while he wrote, not to have to search in his "main files" all the time, including near complete scenes from earlier books for the "voice" of some characters he didn't use too often. For example for a late KOD file or perhaps in preparation for AMOL (ie: RJ's one-book) as it included a KOD chapter, he had queried Maria to give him the full text of all previous Mesaana-Alviarin meetings.

Terez
05-17-2014, 03:06 PM
I posted a general description of what the files are like on Dragonmount, because someone asked whether the notes really were longer than the series. (That's probably true, but there is a lot of repeat material from file to file, and even within one file, and there are a lot of quoted scenes from the books.)

Southpaw2012
05-17-2014, 03:10 PM
Fascinating.

sleepinghour
05-17-2014, 04:31 PM
To take once example: I was certain a Lanfear-Egwene face-off was coming. The themes and hints and foreshadowing were too good. As it was, we really didn't get a direct face off. Instead, they "faced off" in how they affected Rand, and in his final conversations with them, which were still rich with mirroring and parallels.

I agree. Several characters had their own Forsaken counterpart, and in some cases it was a bit disappointing that we never got to see a final confrontation between them. It would have been interesting to see Egwene and Lanfear face off in T'A'R, or for Moiraine to confront Lanfear again and maybe trade some comments about Sindhol. Nynaeve and Moghedien also seemed a likely rematch.

But as you say, they faced off in other ways, by choosing opposite courses of action. Egwene made up with Rand and helped him let go of the crippling guilt he was carrying. Moiraine and Nynaeve agreed to become his linking partners at SG, unlike Lanfear and Moghedien who were Moridin's mindtrapped prisoners and fought to take his place. Those things were ultimately more meaningful than any hack-and-slash OP battles with Forsaken.

A important clarification, though: as Terez has already pointed out, the files concerning AMOL by RJ or from Brandon's work with TJ are not part of the collection. Not yet and probably not for many years. Most notes regarding the issues you mention are likely in those.

There might be some tidbits about the future in the unreleased files since Brandon once shared an excerpt (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=943#13) where RJ talks about the future of Lan and Malkier. However, the quotes sound like they're excerpted from a conversation with RJ, so they could also be from a recorded/transcribed Q&A when he was sick, rather than his own notes. (I remember Team Jordan saying they recorded a few Q&A sessions with RJ.)

fionwe1987
05-17-2014, 05:34 PM
Egwene made up with Rand and helped him let go of the crippling guilt he was carrying.
It was more than that, in a way. Lanfear lures Rand into a dark cavern, where she pretends to be drowning in a crystalline pool (that Rand says represented something more). Rand realizes she's faking, and shows to her to core of himself, to prove that he has truly let her go, that he cares nothing for her.

Egwene does drown in a crystalline pool of water (saidar). Rand is guilty that he was unable to save her. Egwene then goes to Rand (at least, that's what I believe happens, though others may disagree), enters the dark cavern where it is Rand who is now drowning in darkness, and helps him let go of her.

Dom
05-17-2014, 11:38 PM
There might be some tidbits about the future in the unreleased files since Brandon once shared an excerpt (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=943#13) where RJ talks about the future of Lan and Malkier. However, the quotes sound like they're excerpted from a conversation with RJ, so they could also be from a recorded/transcribed Q&A when he was sick, rather than his own notes. (I remember Team Jordan saying they recorded a few Q&A sessions with RJ.)

Oh, I'm quite sure there is more. It's probably not as detailed as we might like.

That sounds like a conversation, but it probably is a monologue. It's actually quite typical of many of the notes. He talked to himself a lot. (I invent, this is not a quote!): "She can't be much older than this. I don't think Wise Ones would survive this long without some accident happening. The Waste is too dangerous. Or is it? Maybe I put the median age limit too low?"

Master Ablar
05-18-2014, 05:13 AM
Same with Rand. All his strength can only make a 4 paces by four gateway, yet he can make at least six Deathgates of that size simultaneously. Seems like he can apply his full strength to each weave.


I doubt he's using his full strength to make a gateway 4 by 4 paces. It's just that no matter how strong he is, that's the limit to how large a gateway he can make, much like the bridge of air he made in aCoS when he went to see the Sea Folk. The text never mentions him straining in any way. To make a bigger gateways he would need a certain talent for it.

Dom
05-18-2014, 10:55 AM
I doubt he's using his full strength to make a gateway 4 by 4 paces. It's just that no matter how strong he is, that's the limit to how large a gateway he can make, much like the bridge of air he made in aCoS when he went to see the Sea Folk. The text never mentions him straining in any way. To make a bigger gateways he would need a certain talent for it.

Possibly, as Talent skews many rules. But I'm not so sure in this case. Salidar Aes Sedai linked to make bigger gateways (which shouldn't increase skill at all), and there's been no Talent for larger or less power-intensive gateways mentioned among AS. Circles augment precision beside increasing strength (and provide a protection, since it's impossible to draw too much in a circle) but we don't know that precision could increase the size of gateways, especially that RJ's examples often involved performing a task alone instead of combining the weaves of many channelers.

Personally I tend to think it's probably just strenght-based, as it probably comes down to how much saidin/saidar is required to maintain the changes in the fabric of reality woven out of finite amount of saidar and saidin for a given area. The Talent might play on the quality of the engineering of the gateway (so it better supports pressure while using less power) but that would mean the weaves are different/better conceived, and it doesn't seem to be the case before Androl.

Then there are the numbers. The minimal level to make a gateway the size of a man (with saidar) is pretty high. One of the two methods might be more power-intensive than the other, but RJ liked to create equivalences, and the trend is that women are favored in efficiency (though much less so when it's Fire or Earth weaves), so since it's Spirit in which they are equally good if anything it would probably be saidin gateways that are more power intensive, from the general effiency principle.

I suck with RJ's measurements but even then, comparing that to Rand's level, unaided, it seems unlikely that he would not have used at least a very large portion of his full strength unaided for a 4 x 4 paces gateway, especially if we really have to knock him off six levels to compensate for female efficiency.

To be on the safe side, I wouldn't factor in a Talent for this. We don't need to as there was no instance of the Talent showing in RJ's books anyway.

Terez
05-18-2014, 11:33 AM
Aviendha had to use all of her strength to make the Traveling weave she learned from Egwene, that Elayne could make with only part of her strength (and Aviendha and Elayne are lockstep). That was because she learned a different weave the first time, and then forgot it.

fionwe1987
05-18-2014, 12:19 PM
Yeah Master Ablar is right on this. Rand says Asmodean told him the OP has very little to do with Gateways:

Four paces was as large as Rand could make it. There were limits for one man by himself, Asmodean claimed; it seemed there were always limits. The amount of saidin you drew did not matter. The One Power had little to do with gateways, really; only the making. Beyond, was something else. A dream of a dream, Asmodean called it.
Can't believe I forgot this quote.

Also, Egwene's Gateways are pure Spirit, but men weave Gateways of Spirit touched with Fire. I think Egwene herself might be strong enough in Spirit to make her Gateways as large as she can with them, but because Aes Sedai don't understand the need to tailor your weaves to your strengths, I think most Aes Sedai make smaller Gateways than they could have if they did things differently.

fionwe1987
05-19-2014, 07:07 PM
So we know RJ went back and forth on Egwene's death. Which other characters were in the "possible death" and "definitely safe" lists according to the notes?

GonzoTheGreat
05-20-2014, 03:28 AM
The DO was in "definitely safe".

Terez
05-20-2014, 05:16 AM
So we know RJ went back and forth on Egwene's death. Which other characters were in the "possible death" and "definitely safe" lists according to the notes?
This is something we won't say much about any time soon.

Davian93
05-20-2014, 11:03 AM
This is something we won't say much about any time soon.

Tease!!!

Southpaw2012
05-20-2014, 01:41 PM
This is something we won't say much about any time soon.

Well, at least you did not say never. You did, however, say "much" so can we have a little? ;)

Seeker
05-20-2014, 02:02 PM
Why do you guys want to know. Wouldn't it just diminish your enjoyment of the series?

Rand al'Fain
05-20-2014, 02:30 PM
Why do you guys want to know. Wouldn't it just diminish your enjoyment of the series?

Me, that stuff doesn't matter much. Hence why I asked about if there was anything about outriggers.

:(

fionwe1987
05-20-2014, 04:57 PM
Why do you guys want to know. Wouldn't it just diminish your enjoyment of the series?

What enjoyment could be had is done now. I'm more interested in analyzing and understanding how RJ's intentions and plans changed. That's how I can relive the series.

Seeker
05-20-2014, 11:20 PM
You know, there are other series...

GonzoTheGreat
05-21-2014, 03:33 AM
You know, there are other series...
Yeah, but we know that GRRM is never ever gonna finish his, so discussing that one is entirely pointless. The Discworld is far too logical and sensible to allow for much discussion. What does that leave us? The Twilight series, which no one here seems enamored of.

fionwe1987
05-21-2014, 09:10 AM
I fail to see how the existence of other series has anything to do with my desire to know more about WoT and the history of its writing.

A more answerable question: is there more on Siuan's tenure prior to EotW? Her rise to Amyrlin would at least have been commented on in the third prequel, so I'm wondering if there was more on that, and possible BA plots during the time. I'm really curious to know how the BA dealt with the rise of a young Amyrlin they couldn't easily kill, and when exactly they became aware of her plotting with Moiraine.

Seeker
05-21-2014, 12:14 PM
Yeah, but we know that GRRM is never ever gonna finish his, so discussing that one is entirely pointless. The Discworld is far too logical and sensible to allow for much discussion. What does that leave us? The Twilight series, which no one here seems enamored of.

Dresden Files? Storm Light? Demon Cycle? All things I would love to discuss with you guys.

fionwe1987
05-21-2014, 12:59 PM
Dresden Files? Storm Light? Demon Cycle? All things I would love to discuss with you guys.

I wouldn't mind some good Dresden discussion before the next book is out.

Seeker
05-21-2014, 01:26 PM
I'll start a thread. :)

Seeker
05-21-2014, 05:34 PM
Okay, Fionwe. Go defend your ship.

(Other Books Board, Dresden Files thread).

Dom
05-21-2014, 08:16 PM
Is there more on Siuan's tenure prior to EotW? Her rise to Amyrlin would at least have been commented on in the third prequel, so I'm wondering if there was more on that, and possible BA plots during the time. I'm really curious to know how the BA dealt with the rise of a young Amyrlin they couldn't easily kill, and when exactly they became aware of her plotting with Moiraine.

Terez and Marie have read more files than me, but IIRC there isn't really more than what we know from the books in the library files about Siuan's career (in fact, I think some elements from the books were not even present in the various Siuan entries). The notes for her had mostly elements lifted or reworded from NS and the main series books. The details he might have put in prequel 3 were probably not conceived of at all.

Siuan's past after the mid series was very much connected to Egwene's apprenticeship of power. It's very likely that for RJ this meant it was open territory to mine, and he made up new elements for her past to fit what he decided Egwene now needed.

There's much more new elements of back story about events in the decade before Siuan's election like a very substantial survey of the Vileness years (which RJ called "the pogroms" in his notes).

There are some tidbits about Siuan as Amyrlin in various entries for other sisters, but they're not very "juicy".

There may of course be much more in some other files Harriet has kept to work on the encyclopedia.

Rand al'Fain
05-22-2014, 12:03 PM
I fail to see how the existence of other series has anything to do with my desire to know more about WoT and the history of its writing.

A more answerable question: is there more on Siuan's tenure prior to EotW? Her rise to Amyrlin would at least have been commented on in the third prequel, so I'm wondering if there was more on that, and possible BA plots during the time. I'm really curious to know how the BA dealt with the rise of a young Amyrlin they couldn't easily kill, and when exactly they became aware of her plotting with Moiraine.

The only way that the BA could have known, was if Verin somehow found out and tipped them off. Even then though, there is not even a hint that the BA knew that Siaun and Moiraine knew about the Foretelling, as they kept it secret for so long. And only Elaida and Verin remembered they had been very close, but probably never knew why they were doing what they were doing.

fionwe1987
05-22-2014, 12:18 PM
The only way that the BA could have known, was if Verin somehow found out and tipped them off. Even then though, there is not even a hint that the BA knew that Siaun and Moiraine knew about the Foretelling, as they kept it secret for so long. And only Elaida and Verin remembered they had been very close, but probably never knew why they were doing what they were doing.
Oh the BA knew by TGH that something was up, almost certainly because of Elaida's letter complaining about Moiriane. That's part of why Alviarin, Verin and Liandrin came to Shienar, and Talene was asked to throw a wrench in Siuan's plans to travel there.

The question is, how much did they know, and did they have other reasons to suspect Siuan and Moiraine.

Rand al'Fain
05-22-2014, 01:37 PM
Oh the BA knew by TGH that something was up, almost certainly because of Elaida's letter complaining about Moiriane. That's part of why Alviarin, Verin and Liandrin came to Shienar, and Talene was asked to throw a wrench in Siuan's plans to travel there.

The question is, how much did they know, and did they have other reasons to suspect Siuan and Moiraine.

Knew something was up, yeah. Beyond that, nothing in their POVs suggests that they knew that Siuan and Moiraine had been secretly searching for the Dragon Reborn for 20 years. If they had, Moiraine and Siuan would have been killed well before discovering Rand and company.

Dom
05-22-2014, 02:50 PM
Oh the BA knew by TGH that something was up, almost certainly because of Elaida's letter complaining about Moiriane. That's part of why Alviarin, Verin and Liandrin came to Shienar, and Talene was asked to throw a wrench in Siuan's plans to travel there.

The question is, how much did they know, and did they have other reasons to suspect Siuan and Moiraine.

I think the BA learned the truth or part of it only from putting Siuan to the question (Siuan had little reason to keep the story of Gitara/Tamra secret anymore unlike other things she didn't want known.. Rand was proclaimed. It also could serve to justify herself.). Before then, I think they had no idea how Siuan and Moiraine found Rand, but obviously they knew at the latest in Fal Dara, and probably suspected earlier, that they were indeed in cahoots and hiding things, and that Rand was actually TDR. It may well be Ishamael who forwarned Alviarin about Moiraine's involvement, maybe even before Elaida wrote to Tar Valon. Fain no doubt learned her name in Emond's Field.


I don't think the Black Ajah wanted to stop Siuan from leaving the White Tower, but they might have wanted to undermine her position and record the disapproval of much of the Hall, beside cornering and restraining Moiraine, the Black Ajah pushed the Hall into forcing her to return to Tar Valon where she would have had to answer the Sitters for her actions and she would be "out of the game". Talene seems to have started the ball rolling (and broke the Green-Blue alliance) and pushed to stop Siuan, but the Black also had White-Grey-Yellow Sitters. The White supported Siuan, the Grey didn't and Sedore abstained. The vote was very close, the BA could have won it if it wanted to. But it depends if Siuan's intents to go were known or not before the Hall had its session - but I think they were not and the BA thus couldn't plan.

An even more likely scenario is that the BA's plan was solely to force Moiraine's return and hinder Siuan's authority, and Siuan took them by surprise by announcing she intended to go in person with the Hall's envoys who would bring Moiraine back to face the Hall. Even for Siuan this was a move to forestall the Hall and "question" Moiraine herself, in fact forewarning her so she could escape facing the Hall. The decision to go seems to have taken place during the same sitting, and I find it likely the Black were taken by surprise and each one had to decide how best to handle this. Talene and Evanellein voted to stop Siuan, while Sedore chose abstention and Velina supported Siuan.

Either the Black Ajah meant to achieve exactly what they achieved, or they were taken by surprise and improvised. Either way, Siuan's trip was hardly such a bad thing for them, since it was among other things a golden opportunity to organize Siuan's murder far from the WT and without the BA being suspected, after Verin had a chance to find out first what Moiraine and Siuan were up to. That Gray Man wasn't there for Rand. I also suspect Verin sent Moiraine to the Namelles, openly to provide an opportunity to isolate and kill her, but secretely Verin taught Moiraine how to weave balefire in the hope she'd escape the trap. No one but Verin might also have known too that Moiraine would join two other sisters at destination and it would be three sisters plus an angreal that would face the Shadow's assassin(s).

Siuan would have died under the watch of a Great Captain and while she had taken risks the Hall had disapproved of, and at a very bad time The BA had four Sitters to block the election of a successor and push for compromise candidates of their liking.

fionwe1987
05-22-2014, 04:51 PM
I think the BA learned the truth or part of it only from putting Siuan to the question (Siuan had little reason to keep the story of Gitara/Tamra secret anymore unlike other things she didn't want known.. Rand was proclaimed. It also could serve to justify herself.). Before then, I think they had no idea how Siuan and Moiraine found Rand, but obviously they knew at the latest in Fal Dara, and probably suspected earlier, that they were indeed in cahoots and hiding things, and that Rand was actually TDR. It may well be Ishamael who forwarned Alviarin about Moiraine's involvement, maybe even before Elaida wrote to Tar Valon. Fain no doubt learned her name in Emond's Field.
I agree Ishamael played a hand. He showed himself to be aware of Moiraine as far back as Baerlon, and I think he was certainly likely to use the BA to interfere with her plans.

As for the entire details of Moiraine and Siuan's collaboration, I agree the BA likely got it all when Siuan was questioned (lets remember Galina headed that interrogation, so the BA was very well placed to extract details). But what I'm curious about is how much they guessed. Jarna Mellari was Alviarin's predecessor who started the pogroms, and we know she came upon Moiraine and Siuan while they were working on the lists of potential boys.

Merean also knew what they were up to, and also knew they were very close. While her suspicions were seemingly only roused in Chachin, she may well have reported these two as being innocent data gatherers for Tamra. Someone clever enough could definitely have put the pieces together to at least suspect what Siuan and Moiraine were up to, and I'm curious to know if someone did.

I don't think the Black Ajah wanted to stop Siuan from leaving the White Tower, but they might have wanted to undermine her position and record the disapproval of much of the Hall, beside cornering and restraining Moiraine, the Black Ajah pushed the Hall into forcing her to return to Tar Valon where she would have had to answer the Sitters for her actions and she would be "out of the game". Talene seems to have started the ball rolling (and broke the Green-Blue alliance) and pushed to stop Siuan, but the Black also had White-Grey-Yellow Sitters. The White supported Siuan, the Grey didn't and Sedore abstained. The vote was very close, the BA could have won it if it wanted to. But it depends if Siuan's intents to go were known or not before the Hall had its session - but I think they were not and the BA thus couldn't plan.
Yes, with the side benefit of driving a wedge between the Blues and the Greens, which was bound to destabilize Siuan.

An even more likely scenario is that the BA's plan was solely to force Moiraine's return and hinder Siuan's authority, and Siuan took them by surprise by announcing she intended to go in person with the Hall's envoys who would bring Moiraine back to face the Hall. Even for Siuan this was a move to forestall the Hall and "question" Moiraine herself, in fact forewarning her so she could escape facing the Hall. The decision to go seems to have taken place during the same sitting, and I find it likely the Black were taken by surprise and each one had to decide how best to handle this. Talene and Evanellein voted to stop Siuan, while Sedore chose abstention and Velina supported Siuan.
Velina's support for Siuan may have purely been to not raise Seiaine's suspicions. A White Sitter raised Siuan, and as the senior White, she'd have been immediately suspicious if one of her fellow Whites suddenly flipped to the other side. That may have been Velina's justification, and it also points to a sudden vote, because if it had been anticipated, I suspect Alviarin and Sheriam between them could have found a way to justify Velina defecting.

Either the Black Ajah meant to achieve exactly what they achieved, or they were taken by surprise and improvised. Either way, Siuan's trip was hardly such a bad thing for them, since it was among other things a golden opportunity to organize Siuan's murder far from the WT and without the BA being suspected, after Verin had a chance to find out first what Moiraine and Siuan were up to. That Gray Man wasn't there for Rand. I also suspect Verin sent Moiraine to the Namelles, openly to provide an opportunity to isolate and kill her, but secretely Verin taught Moiraine how to weave balefire in the hope she'd escape the trap. No one but Verin might also have known too that Moiraine would join two other sisters at destination and it would be three sisters plus an angreal that would face the Shadow's assassin(s).
Oh certainly, the trip was a great chance for the Black. Alviarin herself coming is a sign of Ishamael also wanting them there, I think. The other big question is which Aes Sedai were at the Darkfriend Social. That may explain a lot, too.

Siuan would have died under the watch of a Great Captain and while she had taken risks the Hall had disapproved of, and at a very bad time The BA had four Sitters to block the election of a successor and push for compromise candidates of their liking.
Yup. I suspect their overall failure at Fal Dara is what prompted them to seriously look for a way to depose Siuan. Not only was Moiraine not reigned in, the potential Dragon Reborn was left to go free, along with two other ta'veren, and two strong women likely to be sympathetic to the DR were brought into the Tower. I'm sure Verin giving Anaiya all that info on Dreaming was no coincidence either. Ishamael must have been mighty curious of the Dreamer "protecting" Rand, and fully aware of the dangers of leaving her as a resource for Siuan to use. That must have been at least part of the reason why he hatched the Seamchan plan.

neurotopia
05-23-2014, 06:57 AM
Dresden Files? Storm Light? Demon Cycle? All things I would love to discuss with you guys.

Demon Cycle is so rapey it makes Song of Ice and Fire look like a guide to chivalrous behavior.

That being said, I still enjoy the series.

Rand al'Fain
05-23-2014, 10:19 AM
Actually somewhat related, even though it is from another author's website.
http://www.naominovik.com/2014/02/the-uk-unfettered-out-today/
The book being shown has deleted scenes from AMOL, which probably fits more here, than in a thread of it's own.

Dom
05-23-2014, 11:14 AM
I'm curious about is how much they guessed. Jarna Mellari was Alviarin's predecessor who started the pogroms, and we know she came upon Moiraine and Siuan while they were working on the lists of potential boys.

An Aes Sedai had tasked two Accepted with clerical work, which happens all the time. The two clearly would have preferred to have the chance to join the others outside, which Jarna and Merean could easily see. That doesn't speak of doing anything interesting. The Black Ajah (aside from Verin, who wouldn't likely have passed on anything that the BA couldn't suspect she knew) never figured out what Tamra was up to with her distribution of a bounty, so that work was never associated with her search. It never occured to them that she was looking for a newborn and they were convinced they had to look for a channeler, that's one reason why the pogroms occurred. Is suspect Tamra was able to mislead the BA about which prophecy had been fulfilled, which made them think the Dragon was a young or old man, not a child.

she may well have reported these two as being innocent data gatherers for Tamra. Someone clever enough could definitely have put the pieces together to at least suspect what Siuan and Moiraine were up to, and I'm curious to know if someone did.

Possibly Verin, but only her.



Velina's support for Siuan may have purely been to not raise Seiaine's suspicions. A White Sitter raised Siuan, and as the senior White, she'd have been immediately suspicious if one of her fellow Whites suddenly flipped to the other side.

Only the Green and Blue had a lasting alliance. The other Ajahs allied only punctually, depending on what issues are being debated and their alignments changed all the time (that's a tdibit from the notes). Seaine was a supporter of Siuan, which doesn't mean she always supported her in everything as she was above all a speaker for her Ajah that trusted her judgement to put her in that position. Seaine might have disagreed with Velina's decision, but I doubt she would have found it suspicious when about half the Hall also thought the same way.


Yup. I suspect their overall failure at Fal Dara is what prompted them to seriously look for a way to depose Siuan.

I'm not so sure. Ishamael had Verin who had Siuan's trust, and Sheriam through whom some of Moiraine's communications passed - and however they arranged it, her communications with Siuan were monitored. Verin was in on her plans to hunt the BA and knew the hunters were safely out of the Towee, and we know she passed this stuff on. They had four Sitters to work in the Hall. They had thus Siuan well surrounded, now that they knew they had to monitor her very closely (which they didn't know before). I think Ishamael in TDR no longer had any plans to get rid of Siuan, it's Mesaana with her schemes to neutralize and destroy the Tower who decided she needed a more divisive Amyrlin.

Ishamael must have been mighty curious of the Dreamer "protecting" Rand, and fully aware of the dangers of leaving her as a resource for Siuan to use.

In TGH he seemed to simply see her and Nynaeve as good baits, and mostly a plan B at that, in case what he had agreed with Lanfear failed. It would have been easier to assassinate them if they were a threat in his eyes, which he resorted to do in TDR after the big fiasco at Falme... but I'm sure by then what he feared was not so much them as the fact they were obviously caught up in the ta'veren web, the very same reason why Lanfear, no longer working with him, did the opposite and worked to send these people to Tear, where she had baited Rand to go for Callandor, which she wanted him to get.

Sodas
07-02-2014, 11:36 PM
Theoryland winners in the notes: RS, Sodas, and me!

Being vague is fun.

:D:D

Sodas
07-02-2014, 11:40 PM
Actually somewhat related, even though it is from another author's website.
http://www.naominovik.com/2014/02/the-uk-unfettered-out-today/
The book being shown has deleted scenes from AMOL, which probably fits more here, than in a thread of it's own.

Btw, thank you.

I read it as a result of looking back through this thread. Didn't hear about it.

Ended up reading it, and now I know why it was cut. I do not like Brandon's take on Demandred. Demandred was one of the top Forsaken! He was a mass murdering megalomaniac. Is Stalin a tragic character? That's rather upsetting to see an author rationalize an evil character. I'd love to see a remake of the final 3 books from another author more in touch with reality.

Zombie Sammael
07-03-2014, 01:05 AM
Btw, thank you.

I read it as a result of looking back through this thread. Didn't hear about it.

Ended up reading it, and now I know why it was cut. I do not like Brandon's take on Demandred. Demandred was one of the top Forsaken! He was a mass murdering megalomaniac. Is Stalin a tragic character? That's rather upsetting to see an author rationalize an evil character. I'd love to see a remake of the final 3 books from another author more in touch with reality.

Rather, it gives depth to Demandred. It's far more interesting to read a villain one can sympathise with, even when he does horrible things. It makes the reader question their own definition of good and evil, rather than simply spoonfeeding their expectations. It's why Magneto is a better villain than Doctor Doom, or why Darth Vader is more interesting than the Emperor. I don't read ROS as an attempt to redeem Demandred so much as an attempt to give pathos to his descent, during AMOL, into total madness.

Is he such a bad guy after all, with that given? Well, yes. Objectively he is a mass murdering psycho waging a war on creation itself, because of his own neuroses and lack of self-esteem. He is deeply selfish, scheming, and narcissistic. However, even Stalin had a certain charisma. River of Souls shows us those positive elements of Demandred, and hammers home the point that, if only had things been different, he could have walked another path. He didn't. He chose evil.

It's not moral relativism to say that even the worst of people are capable of having redeeming qualities, nor is it out of touch with reality. Nor, in fiction generally, do characters who are totally evil make for great villains. Even Tywin Lannister loved his son.

Sodas
07-03-2014, 01:37 AM
Rather, it gives depth to Demandred. It's far more interesting to read a villain one can sympathise with, even when he does horrible things. It makes the reader question their own definition of good and evil, rather than simply spoonfeeding their expectations.

It's far more interesting to read tabloids. Both are equally false and out of touch with reality.

Maybe if you are in grade school, you need your "definition of good and evil" questioned, but once you become an adult, you should have that down pat.

I stand by my statements.

Zombie Sammael
07-03-2014, 02:25 AM
It's far more interesting to read tabloids. Both are equally false and out of touch with reality.

Maybe if you are in grade school, you need your "definition of good and evil" questioned, but once you become an adult, you should have that down pat.

I stand by my statements.

I'm not so sure that,as an adult, everything is quite so black and white. In fact, it's generally younger minds which tend to see things as either right or wrong. As adults, we have to deal with the world as it is, or ought to, and that's a world of nuance and shades of grey. Even when dealing with those shades, I don't deny that there are some actions which are too dark a shade, or so light as to have no consequence. But I am capable of accepting that sometimes bad people do good things, and sometimes good people do bad things.

It's easy enough to paint Jimmy Saville as a pedophile monster. He was. That doesn't change the fact that he did do some good work for charity, even as a cover for his disgusting appetites. If someone does the right thing for wholly the wrong reasons, should the people that benefit from that feel ashamed, even though they are as innocent as the victims?

As adults, it's our role - our responsibility - to ask questions of ourselves and others. We cannot blindly accept or categorise everything so easily. There are things that are wholly bad and things that are wholly good, but these are few. Everything else lies somewhere between, most humans included. The writing reflects that. Demandred is a bad person, but writing him sympathetically causes us to question why that is. That doesn't have the effect of mitigating his evil, but rather of emphasising it.

Terez
07-03-2014, 11:36 PM
:D:D
I am really looking forward to the day when I can talk about this. :)

Sodas
07-05-2014, 04:42 AM
I am really looking forward to the day when I can talk about this. :)

Don't care.

The fact that you, someone who attacked me viciously over the years, and continue to insult me in other threads in veiled attacks, had to admit I was right, speaks volumes.

I don't care if you think you were right. You couldn't even see the body swap coming. You constantly insisted over and over again that Rand must die. Did he? So you were wrong. It's like listening to someone who had no clue suddenly try to act like an expert, it's laughable. Please spare me "I was right the whole time."

But it's good comedy, for sure.

Terez
07-05-2014, 04:25 PM
I don't care if you think you were right. You couldn't even see the body swap coming.
Oh, I saw it coming; I just didn't like it and convinced myself that RJ wasn't going to go there. When I was a noob here, I posted about body-swap before anyone else here was talking about it, and said that I had already read that story (Anne Rice, Tale of the Body Thief).

You constantly insisted over and over again that Rand must die. Did he?
I believe he did, and that that's why he has his new powers; his soul technically resides in Tel'aran'rhiod, but he retains control of Moridin's body via the merge between them. Slayer was the prototype.

Sodas
07-05-2014, 04:39 PM
Nice try.

Terez went around trying to convince everyone else they were wrong about the body swap and Rand's soul living past the Last Battle. Now she wants to change the story to fit her own view of what she did. She will try to rationalize anything, even if it's a bunch of vapid nonsense. Rand's soul lived on in Moridin's body just as I predicted. I don't need RJ's notes to know Terez got completely owned on a subject Terez fervently rejected.

I'll pass now on anything Terez produces going forward. She has reading comprehension issues, an inability to understand the opponents argument, and clearly enjoys changing history to suit her own agenda.

Sodas
07-05-2014, 04:47 PM
Terez, from 2011,

"Rand and Moridin — Egwene has a dream of Logain stepping over Rand's dead body to mount a black stone which probably represents the position of the M'Hael. This is presumably his glory. Since Logain is clearly pointed at the Black Tower, then it seems likely that Rand will die during the battle, maybe even before. He might not have to face Moridin at all for this to happen, but we can be pretty certain that the link between them will be important in some way. I think that link is why Rand's death is necessary, but I expect there to be a moment of uncertainty before his death where either Moridin gains control of Rand's body (this would be dramatic) or Rand's body is killed and Rand's soul is trapped in Moridin's body with no control."

"Meanwhile Rand is being resurrected."

None of which actually happened. Clueless. She didn't she anything coming - so she's a good liar too.

http://theoryland.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=150163&postcount=1

Terez
07-05-2014, 05:42 PM
None of that contradicts what I said.

Seeker
07-05-2014, 06:02 PM
Don't care.

The fact that you, someone who attacked me viciously over the years, and continue to insult me in other threads in veiled attacks, had to admit I was right, speaks volumes.

I don't care if you think you were right. You couldn't even see the body swap coming. You constantly insisted over and over again that Rand must die. Did he? So you were wrong. It's like listening to someone who had no clue suddenly try to act like an expert, it's laughable. Please spare me "I was right the whole time."

But it's good comedy, for sure.

Nice try, Soda Pop.

Rand did die.

You know, big funeral pyre? Lots of weeping people?

You see, RJ was going for the whole nuance thing? You know, taking two concepts that ought to be mutually exclusive - dying and living - and showing how under the right circumstances they can happen at the same time. It depends on your definition of "Rand" and your definition of "die."

But wait, that requires you to engage in the subjective relativism you hate so much.

Sodas
07-05-2014, 06:38 PM
So far there's really no good evidence that would suggest dexterity in weaving could "multiply" anything. Nothing appears to be exponential or multiplied, in fact.

What we have suggests that dexterity counts a something like a talent. If we take a step (Jordan's preferred word for "level". Step=level) as being a finite quantity of saidar, then it always takes 3 or 6 steps (depending if we're right that men have 6 levels above women) more saidin to match the performance of a saidar weave. Saidar weaves are thus slightly more efficient. From various comments in the notes, it seems that gap could be constant, just like "a step" strongly appears to be a unit of measure, thus constant, and the scale fully linear. If we say one level = 1 unit of OP and a woman uses two units of saidar for a weave, it would take 2+6 (or 2+3) units of saidin to match her, not 2x6 (or 2x3).

But at this point it's still a bit speculative as info on male strength is very hard to come across. It may be in a single file that Terez doesn't have, maybe a kind of compendium of Asha'man similar to the Aes Sedai one.

So far Terez has found only the strengths of the living Forsaken by KOD, and they're mentioned only in that one file, nowhere else where the male Forsaken appear (while the women's strengths do show up in many files..). It may well be that RJ bothered with male strengths very late only, maybe as late as when Logain's group started working together.

That's really something RJ used mostly for women, and the evidence of this is everywhere. He probable ended up adding the Forsaken because mentions of strengths (by Alviarin, regarding Alivia etc.) were starting to appear.

There are note files by story line/book, the kind of summary you expect a writer to keep at hand when he wrote a story arc and didn't want to go into the main files to look up the basics. Lists of all players, with very short to more elaborate notes from past books, reminders, LOTS of elaborate descriptions of ALL the wardrobe possessed by everyone etc. In those, RJ virtually always included the strength of female channelers. But the strength of Asha'man, so far never. Not for Neald and Grady, not for Rand's Asha'man, there's not even one strength given in a BT story line file from circa WH to KOD. Even more telling: in those files RJ most often had reminders of previously mentioned strength comparisons, even for minor women (with reminders to disregard when they were not accurate for good reasons: Forsaken X was being arrogant, Aes Sedai X overlooked the strong wilders on purpose etc.) We have yet to see any equivalent for men, even though RJ did mention strength appraisals here and there for Flinn, Narishma etc. He didn't bother including them in his "writing files" as reminders. They were probably only in his main Asha'man files, since he rarely used the, in the books. I even wonder if he bothered distributing men "by the book" with the bell curve like the women or went more randomly since he would hardly mention their strengths.

So RJ wasn't lying when he said this was mostly for women, and mostly to determine social behavior, speak of potentials or draw comparisons. This also appears not to have played much role, if at all, in setting up OP action scenes.

For example there is an outline/plan for one of those (which virtually hasn't changed in the final book it appears in). Only female strengths are included in there. It's pretty obvious he didn't use at all the strength scale in "action scenes".

As for the men levels, I'm behind Terez's theory. I think 72 is definitely the # of "effective levels". If they are more, they "don't work", ie: the ability is genetically present, but the soul or its connection to the TS is too weak for the human brain to make use of the ability at all.

So I think personally that "female dexterity" is constant. Daigan's weaves would match a man's six steps above her, just like Lanfear matches Rand. I speculate from this that while levels 60 to 66 theorically exist for men, but for a man to be able to seize the source at all, the mark is six levels higher than a woman's. Therefore, while the weakest man and woman are equal in OP quantities (as RJ implied. he said "weakest man/woman are roughly the same), it is also true that the weakest woman in effect matches the weakest man. So the six last levels for men would be "ghost levels", and in effect there would be 66 levels for men as well.

At the moment I'm more interested by the linking rules, as it's getting very clear that there's either a mathematical or philosophic correlation between that and the strength scale. 66 levels for women, 6 higher levels for men on top. 72 is the largest circle and requires at least 6 men to 66 women. Now, why is it 13 women before a man must be included, and etc.? How does it work mathematically?

By the way, it also appears that Brandon was quite right with this answer:

I

There are even interesting connections that are beginning to appear between angreal, san'angreal and the strength scale.

This info isn't from the notes, but I think the strongest female angreal = level 1/12+ (made from a seed by a level 1/+12 woman) or if you prefer it boosts you by 66 steps, the strongest male angreal = ++1. The strongest female san'angreal could be 66 x level 1/12+ (made by the 66 level 1/+12 women in a circle of 72, with 6 men. Saidin would be used for the buffer, maybe?). I think the CK might exceed these limits, thus the requirement for AK, but that's even more speculative than the rest (the angreal bit is much less speculative, since we have a good approximation of the strength of Moiraine's in TOM - it makes her stronger than Romanda, thus over 55 levels, which is confirmed, with more accuracy - a precise level she reaches with it - in the notes).

I think it's telling that RJ did not talk about the powers of Male channelers, even more than the conversation trying to equal female channelers to male channelers. That RJ didn't put male strengths in says that there are no levels, it's impossible to define.

I'm not surprised in the wanton attempt to fit RJ's work into a world view where everyone must be equal, and when it doesn't work, they can't accept it. This is a very communist, liberal, feminist world view, as I'm sure David Horowitz would agree. http://www.c-span.org/video/?191779-1/book-discussion-professors-101-dangerous-academics-america

Terez
07-05-2014, 08:31 PM
RJ did assign strengths for the male Forsaken, as we noted. He just didn't assign them, in the notes that we saw, for any of the other male channelers. It wasn't important to his writing like it was for the women.

GonzoTheGreat
07-06-2014, 03:06 AM
RJ did assign strengths for the male Forsaken, as we noted. He just didn't assign them, in the notes that we saw, for any of the other male channelers. It wasn't important to his writing like it was for the women.
Only because the males (apart from the Forsaken) were smart enough not to equate strength with worth. Of course, as you all know, that female foolishness was just a result of the Taint; they'll drop it now that most of the Taint influenced women are gone.

Terez
07-06-2014, 04:44 PM
Only because the males (apart from the Forsaken) were smart enough not to equate strength with worth.
They might not have done it so completely as the Aes Sedai, but strength was a consideration in the Asha'man hierarchy. There were other elements involved, like being a Darkfriend, or a former False Dragon, but Androl's leadership seems to have been an exception rather than the rule, and it's not attributable to RJ.

Marie Curie 7
07-07-2014, 12:59 PM
Just a reminder:

All the book forum discussions are moderated by the Chosen. The forum rules have been posted for your perusal here (http://theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=7507).

In particular, when discussion gets lively on these forums, it's especially important to remember rule #9. We will be moderating posts that we find to include personal insults, attacks, or other inappropriate comments.

The Chosen are watching. (mwa-ha-ha)