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Hugh the Hand
05-28-2014, 11:45 AM
This could go in general as well, but whatever.

And I am sure someone has asked this but,

During the Time of Madness and the Breaking and the world was shifting and the Aes Sedai, and all peoples, were scattered, many technologies and weaves were lost.

I can understand how the making of 'angreal and heartstone was lost, because well they had more important things on their minds.

I can also understand how many battle weaves and healing weaves were lost since they were not known to all and some require skill.

But how the heck could traveling/skimming be lost?

Yes it takes a certain level of power, but linking solves that, and it is a weave that would be useful.

I mean the Aes Sedai remember how to use the OP to build the Tower, but not how to travel from one place to another?

Was it simply "forgotten" as a plot device?

Davian93
05-28-2014, 12:44 PM
Perhaps because of its strategic value, it was lost...much like Greek Fire was lost to the Byzantines.

Aes Sedai of the period were far more likely to be in it for themselves and we see in the current day AS a strong tendency to keep "secret" weaves to themselves or, at best, to their Ajahs. That type of reticence to share likely started during the Breaking and it would explain why something as valuable as Traveling was lost despite it being so useful.

Hugh the Hand
05-28-2014, 01:33 PM
I did not think of that. Still seems unlikely that it would be completely lost.

But that is as good a theory as I have seen.

As for Greek fire, we could make it, we just do not know if it is the same.

The reports of its use could be exaggerated, but still the correct analogy.

Seeker
05-28-2014, 02:23 PM
This could go in general as well, but whatever.

And I am sure someone has asked this but,

During the Time of Madness and the Breaking and the world was shifting and the Aes Sedai, and all peoples, were scattered, many technologies and weaves were lost.

I can understand how the making of 'angreal and heartstone was lost, because well they had more important things on their minds.

I can also understand how many battle weaves and healing weaves were lost since they were not known to all and some require skill.

But how the heck could traveling/skimming be lost?

Yes it takes a certain level of power, but linking solves that, and it is a weave that would be useful.

I mean the Aes Sedai remember how to use the OP to build the Tower, but not how to travel from one place to another?

Was it simply "forgotten" as a plot device?

Because the weave stopped working, so people stopped using it.

What happens when you try to Google something that doesn't exist? You get "No results found" in response. What happens if you try to Travel to a place that doesn't exist? In all likelihood, the weave just fizzles out and no gateway appears.

Traveling requires fixed geographic points. You have to know your current location, and you have to think about your destination. Both tasks would be impossible if the geography of the planet was in flux. Consider the fact that the blasted lands were blasted because they were the most populated areas during that War of Shadow.

Does it make sense that the most populated areas on the planet would be on or near the Arctic Circle? No, they were almost certainly in more temperate regions. That means that someone must have used a very power sa'angreal (Likely one of the CK access keys) to literally change the Earth's access. Old ice caps melted, new ice caps formed and the oceans and continents changed shape.

How could anyone choose a destination (a city or even a rough geographic location) if that destination no longer exists. Even if you do something as general as, "I want to travel to some place smack dab in the middle of Florida," how can that work if there IS no Florida? Yes technically, Disney World might still exist at the bottom of the ocean, but the destination you imagined was on dry land. Your weave scans the pattern and says "I can't find anything that matches that description. Sorry. no results found." No gateway forms.

Davian93
05-28-2014, 03:07 PM
Yes but you dont need to know where you're going, just where you are...thus, if you sit around for a few hours to "learn" a location, that's a moot point. Also, it wouldn't eliminate short leap traveling over a few miles or even a few hundred yards.

Also, its not as if the landscape was constantly changing for the full 300+ years of the Breaking. It happened in spurts as men went mad and then as others finally left the Stedding and subsequently went mad. Most of the major damage probably occurred early on when the the Taint first hit and none of the angreal/sa'angreal were hidden from male channelers.

So I dont buy that as a legitimate explanation.

Seeker
05-28-2014, 03:22 PM
Yes but you dont need to know where you're going, just where you are...thus, if you sit around for a few hours to "learn" a location, that's a moot point. Also, it wouldn't eliminate short leap traveling over a few miles or even a few hundred yards.

Also, its not as if the landscape was constantly changing for the full 300+ years of the Breaking. It happened in spurts as men went mad and then as others finally left the Stedding and subsequently went mad. Most of the major damage probably occurred early on when the the Taint first hit and none of the angreal/sa'angreal were hidden from male channelers.

So I dont buy that as a legitimate explanation.

But you do need to know where you're going. You may not have to know precise details, but you need a general idea of where you want to appear. That would make it impossible to travel to places that no longer exist.

Also, what would be the purpose of short-leap traveling when you're wandering around a broken landscape.

Finally, who says traveling was lost all at once. If it's utility diminished, if it became less and less useful, people who knew the weave would just use it less and less until they all died out. There wouldn't be much opportunity for women to teach other women to channel if they're all wandering around in nomadic tribes. Finally, it's probably like the Aons in Elantris. After the Reod, none of the Elantrians bothered to learn them because they didn't work anymore. Most people, unfortunately, don't think about the future. It never occurred to the Elantrians that the Aons might one day work again with a little tweaking. Likewise, if traveling stopped working, many of the women who knew it would likely just accept that as the new reality and assume that it will never work again. Remember that it's not like they would be able to see what was happening on a global scale. They might not be able to guess why the weave stopped working. It might not have occurred to them that they can't travel to M'Jinn because there is no M'Jinn. If they're on the other side of the world, how would they know?

Weird Harold
05-28-2014, 05:27 PM
But how the heck could traveling/skimming be lost?

Yes it takes a certain level of power, but linking solves that, and it is a weave that would be useful.

I mean the Aes Sedai remember how to use the OP to build the Tower, but not how to travel from one place to another?

During and immediately after the Breaking, prior to the formation of the White Tower, learning the OP was a strictly one-on-one apprenticeship. The "Masters" held certain weaves as personal secrets to keep apprentices from surpassing the Masters. Among those secrets was Traveling; kept secret through apprenticeship and only passed on to the most trusted students. Gradually those who knew the secret fell victim to accident and/or foul play before the secret could be passed on.

When the White Tower was formed, Traveling would have been one of those "Ajah Secret Weaves" if anyone survived who knew the secret (and would admit knowing the secret.)

Like most knowledge passed along at a "masters only" level, masters who knew the secret simply died out before passing the secret along.

Davian93
05-28-2014, 05:33 PM
During and immediately after the Breaking, prior to the formation of the White Tower, learning the OP was a strictly one-on-one apprenticeship. The "Masters" held certain weaves as personal secrets to keep apprentices from surpassing the Masters. Among those secrets was Traveling; kept secret through apprenticeship and only passed on to the most trusted students. Gradually those who knew the secret fell victim to accident and/or foul play before the secret could be passed on.

When the White Tower was formed, Traveling would have been one of those "Ajah Secret Weaves" if anyone survived who knew the secret (and would admit knowing the secret.)

Like most knowledge passed along at a "masters only" level, masters who knew the secret simply died out before passing the secret along.

Exactly...especially as it takes quite a bit of strength for a female to open a gate to begin with so maybe they would only pass it on to someone who could actually make one and that makes it even more likely it could die out.

Weird Harold
05-28-2014, 05:34 PM
Also, what would be the purpose of short-leap traveling when you're wandering around a broken landscape.

Line-of-sight traveling is useful for crossing rivers and canyons, and for scouting where you want to know the territory between long distance destinations. Wandering around a broken landscape is exactly the situation I'd want to be able to Travel line-of-sight.

Short distance traveling is also useful for getting away from a situation where staying put would be hazardous to your health. It also doesn't required "knowing your ground" before Traveling.

Davian93
05-28-2014, 05:36 PM
Line-of-sight traveling is useful for crossing rivers and canyons, and for scouting where you want to know the territory between long distance destinations. Wandering around a broken landscape is exactly the situation I'd want to be able to Travel line-of-sight.

Short distance traveling is also useful for getting away from a situation where staying put would be hazardous to your health. It also doesn't required "knowing your ground" before Traveling.

Exactly...it makes a ton of sense and we've seen it used repeatedly. In a situation like the Breaking, it would only make more sense to use.

fionwe1987
05-28-2014, 11:19 PM
We can almost certainly be sure knowledge of Traveling didn't die out right away.

We know the first few decades, and maybe a century, after the Sealing, Aes Sedai were still dealing with the remnants of the Shadow. Latra Pose headed that effort, and I think we can be fairly certain Traveling was involved.

As the years went by and the Taint and its effects became more obvious, hunting male channelers and dealing with their effects on the world would have been an added priority for the female Aes Sedai. Traveling is useful here too, and I see no reason why they wouldn't have learned the weave.

But at some point, the number of mad male channelers reached a critical mass, enough so that the Aes Sedai organization began to crumble, and they were even forced to give up on protecting the Aiel. We know this was no easy choice, and when they were sent away, no Gateways were used. Obviously, because there was no clear destination that could be called safe.

But the ability to Travel can't have been lost all that soon. We know male Aes Sedai in the Stedding, who took up the sanctuary, were able to make the Ways. That is surely related to Trveling, at least, and the appearance of the first Waygates can be taken as the time up to which Traveling was still known to the female Aes Sedai too.

What would make them forget it, then? Loial gives us the best clue:

"As I was saying," the Ogier went on, "the Aes Sedai, the male Sedai, left. But before they went, they gave a gift to the Ogier in thanks for our sanctuary. The Ways. Enter a Waygate, walk for a day, and you may depart through another Waygate a hundred miles from where you started. Or five hundred. Time and distance are strange in the Ways. Different paths, different bridges, lead to different places, and how long it takes to get there depends on which path you take. It was a marvelous gift, made more so by the times, for the Ways are not part of the world we see around us, nor perhaps of any world outside themselves. Not only did the Ogier so gifted not have to travel through the world, where even after the Breaking men fought like animals to live, in order to reach another stedding, but within the Ways there was no Breaking. The land between two stedding might split open into deep canyons or rise in mountain ranges, but in the Way between them there was no change.

We know of one mountain, and several mountain ranges that came out of the Breaking. The Bore moved from a tropical island to the North Pole. The western Border of the Aiel Waste was close to an ocean, and there was a coastal city in the border to Cairhein.

Now, what happens when you open a Gateway to a place you thought you knew, only to find an ocean, or a mountain, or worse, the heart of a volcano? In many cases, you'd die, or at least get injured.

To prevent that, I think the Aes Sedai stopped using the weave, and didn't teach their rare students the weave early in their career. Finding and training girls must have been mighty hard enough, and no one would have wanted losses from Traveling. Over the course of 400 years, where none who were Aes Sedai in the AoL survived, I think it isn't surprising that many women started regarding Traverling as so unsafe that it would be better not to teach it. Eventually, it was weeded out, because those stubborn enough to keep using it were probably the ones who died.

Terez
05-29-2014, 12:15 AM
This question was answered in depth by Maria on the 4th Age podcast (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=582#13). (Links to the relevant part of the conversation.)

Seeker
05-29-2014, 02:00 AM
During and immediately after the Breaking, prior to the formation of the White Tower, learning the OP was a strictly one-on-one apprenticeship. The "Masters" held certain weaves as personal secrets to keep apprentices from surpassing the Masters. Among those secrets was Traveling; kept secret through apprenticeship and only passed on to the most trusted students. Gradually those who knew the secret fell victim to accident and/or foul play before the secret could be passed on.

When the White Tower was formed, Traveling would have been one of those "Ajah Secret Weaves" if anyone survived who knew the secret (and would admit knowing the secret.)

Like most knowledge passed along at a "masters only" level, masters who knew the secret simply died out before passing the secret along.

So, the people of Randland lost knowledge of traveling because they're idiots...

Sounds about right.

GonzoTheGreat
05-29-2014, 03:49 AM
So, the people of Randland lost knowledge of traveling because they're idiots...

Sounds about right.
Well, that and the fact that with Traveling, it was easier to find trouble, and at the time there was a really huge amount of trouble to find.

Any male AS who knew how to Travel would go mad and start randomly hopping around the world, creating volcanoes. Eventually enough volcanoes had been made, so men stopped Traveling.
Any female AS who knew how to Travel would get mad at the stupid males and chase after them, so that she could fold her arms, glare and sniff. If that didn't work as intended, then she would be killed, thus leaving only women who couldn't Travel.

Dom
05-29-2014, 10:33 AM
I think the loss of so much of OP theory (including important knowledge about training or influencing training, which in turn has limited a lot what the channelers can learn) and weaves that would once have been considered part of "basic training" isn't a big surprise.

Before even the Breaking was in full swing the War would have seriously undermined the Guild's infrastructures to test everyone and train everyone - and to spot the rarer Talents, as people having them would likely have been employed in the War effort rather than maker themselves available for training or to take on apprentices (at least all the rarer weaves/Talents were poossibly taught that way). As the Breaking went on, it would have become more and more difficult to find time to test people and train them (compounded by a growing anti-channeling paranoia) , quite possibly not anymore by professional trainers but more like the equivalent of "home schooling" with all the flaws it entails, and because of Breaking conditions, Skimming would have become extremely hazardous, and Travelling on anything but short distances. Training would forcibly be botched, and I imagine the fully-trained and strong enough AS were for the most part keener to be involved in the hunt for male channelers and vain efforts to rebuild the Guild than training novices, and the mortality rate was high for everyone... fully trained teachers and students alike, much rarer still for fields requiring Talents. It would have taken a good while before the AoLers realized that this wouldn't be a case where a few generations would be badly trained and the situation would then get remedied and corrected once stability returned, but rather a huge struggle for the survival of OP knowledge itself. By the time they realized this, it might have been late already to remedy that, and the means to do it successfully were seriously lacking. A group of women that still included "engineers" who had designed weave breakers and other defensive/offensive ter'angreal might never have found students to pass this knowledge down to. Before the knowledge of angreal vanished, there was now the massive risk of making one, undermining yourself for a long period.

It would not be too surprising that several groups/sisters no longer taught Traveling in the full swing of the Breaking, or were trained by women who themselves had learned from a woman who did not teach it, or didn't survive long enough to get to that. AS are also often not very altruistic - and without pushing it to the same extreme, the Forsaken were still probably reflecting their culture on this. The Guild passed on OP knowledge, but once the Guild was gone, the temptation to keep to yourself what gave you an edge or more power than other women over a community or group...

As the Guild finally collapsed and mistrust spread among the small groups (hidden DF must have still been everywhere, and even more people with an agenda incompatible with AS goals.. it could be dangerous if you trained one of those...), they would not likely have shared much of their knowledge of the OP, especially weaves that could give them an edge over others.. like the secret ability to move around fast, to invert your weaves, to hide your ability, to split you flows (that one requires some dedication/intensive training) etc. Egwene's lessons from Siuan hint at fairly violent and cutthroat conditions, rife with mistrust of one another, that presided over the first century and more after the founding of Tar Valon. The BWB even hints strongly at the slaughter of some dissenting factions. That's not a climate to encourage at all the passing of pre-Breaking knowledge still existing in some groups to the WT as a whole, even if it meant that the sisters who could learn it where all in other Ajahs and thus the Talent would die in the Ajah who was keeping it secret. The "secret weaves" of the Ajahs could in some cases be remnants from a much larger pool of secret weaves the Ajahs once possessed...). A lot of the "combat weaves", nasty weaves of the Compulsion family (and what else we never learned about), and weaves giving strategic or tactical advantages have also vanished, some with the Oaths and other laws, some probably because their knowledge was kept hidden by the women who had it. Some of the nastier stuff has survived only secretely (Moiraine has got to learn Balefire from someone.. most likely Verin). RJ might have unveiled more of that for the Greens or Reds in TG (he hinted he didn't want to talk of secret weaves because he might have a use for them. The notes suggest he also had not created them yet).

Knowledge of Traveling would no longer have been universal at best post-Breaking, until it died with the last women who still knew it, before or after the WT was founded.

Dom
05-29-2014, 11:43 AM
One thing that speaks for a relatively early loss of Traveling and in favor of the theory that during those centuries the Pattern was in a complete flux the weave stopped working altogether is that we know straight from RJ that the Seanchan continents were not as badly touched as the Westlands during the Breaking, yet not only there doesn't appear to have been mass evacuations to this "haven" (relatively speaking an haven) where the lesser effects would also have made it easier to eliminate earlier all male channelers, but the WT does not appear to have made efforts to bring the "Seanchan" AS to the fold, nor did the Ogier, who could have if Traveling still existed to locate those stedding first, extend the Ways to stedding in Seanchan. In fact, it appears the Westlands never knew, or stopped knowing fairly early on, that the Breaking was not as bad on the other side of the Sea.

This theory is also the only one that seems to explain the loss of Traveling even in zones less touched by the Breaking, like Seanchan but possibly also "The Isle of Madmen" and "Shara" and eventually the future Seafolk Islands.

In any case, contacts between the various landmasses, and even with remote areas on the same landmasses, seem to have declined or stopped fairly early.

Terez
05-29-2014, 01:32 PM
He didn't say Seanchan was less touched by the Breaking, just that there were more stedding there and so they weren't lost.

Davian93
05-29-2014, 01:41 PM
The Bore moved from a tropical island to the North Pole.

Nitpick...Shayol Ghul was never a tropical island...it was a temperate island surrounded by a cool sea (think something more like Vancouver Island or maybe something in the range of the British Isles for weather) and it didnt move to the North Pole...it moved to more like the Canadian Rockies as clearly there are trees and heavily populated areas not all that far south of it in the Borderlands. And there is that comment of north of Shayol Ghul being hundreds of leagues of barren land and ice.

GonzoTheGreat
05-30-2014, 03:18 AM
Plus, there were like hundreds Bowls of the Winds, with even more people who could influence the weather whenever they wanted to. It seems unlikely that as many of those wanted lousy weather as good weather, so I would suspect that the Second Age had a fairly severe case of anthropogenic global warming. Thus, it stands to reason that the world cooled when society broke down.

Rand al'Fain
05-31-2014, 01:16 AM
The knowledge wasn't completely lost, as Sorilea taught the weaves to Cadsuane. And we do know the Jenn Aiel had at least a handful of Aes Sedai that traveled with them, so most likely scenario is that the Aes Sedai with the Jenn Aiel passed along the knowledge to some Aiel Wise Ones in hopes that it could be used again someday.

fionwe1987
05-31-2014, 01:45 AM
The knowledge wasn't completely lost, as Sorilea taught the weaves to Cadsuane. And we do know the Jenn Aiel had at least a handful of Aes Sedai that traveled with them, so most likely scenario is that the Aes Sedai with the Jenn Aiel passed along the knowledge to some Aiel Wise Ones in hopes that it could be used again someday.
Ummm... the source of Sorilea's knowledge was Egwene. I can't believe the number of people who have missed this.

GonzoTheGreat
05-31-2014, 03:38 AM
Ummm... the source of Sorilea's knowledge was Egwene.
With some intermediaries.
Egwene taught Elayne. Elayne taught Aviendha. Aviendha taught the Dreamwalkers, and it was probably Amys who showed Sorilea (and others) how to do this.
It is conceivable that Egwene taught the Dreamwalkers herself, but I would doubt that. At least until some confirmation for this more direct route can be shown.

Terez
05-31-2014, 08:03 AM
TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: Prologue

She did not know most of the Wise Ones in the room, but one face jumped at her. Amys' prematurely white hair combined with features that appeared short of their middle years to give her something of the look of an Aes Sedai. She must have Traveled from Cairhien. Egwene had been teaching the dreamwalkers, to repay their teaching about Tel'aran'rhiod. And to meet a debt, she claimed, though she had never made clear what debt.

fionwe1987
05-31-2014, 09:02 AM
TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: Prologue

She did not know most of the Wise Ones in the room, but one face jumped at her. Amys' prematurely white hair combined with features that appeared short of their middle years to give her something of the look of an Aes Sedai. She must have Traveled from Cairhien. Egwene had been teaching the dreamwalkers, to repay their teaching about Tel'aran'rhiod. And to meet a debt, she claimed, though she had never made clear what debt.

Yup. And this has been going on for some time. That's why as far back as early tPoD, Verin and Cadsuane start noticing that the Wise Ones had picked up new skills. Egwene taught them linking and Traveling at the very least (not shielding as Verin speculates, since Amys shielded Egwene before).

Davian93
05-31-2014, 07:55 PM
Ummm... the source of Sorilea's knowledge was Egwene. I can't believe the number of people who have missed this.

Yeah, that was pretty much a given...I cant believe someone didnt know that actually.

fionwe1987
05-31-2014, 08:29 PM
Yeah, that was pretty much a given...I cant believe someone didnt know that actually.
To be fair, I do think RJ intended this as a mystery... In book 8. Then he solved it in the prologue of book 9 with just one line, so I guess a lot of people never got it.

I do wonder if the Hall ever figured it out, though. Egwene pretty much gave away the Aes Sedai's only advantage over the Wise Ones, however slim it was. She absolutely did the right thing in light of the Last Battle (any number of Rand's schemes requiring moving the Aiel around wouldn't have been as easy to pull off otherwise), but she was distributing the Tower's jealously guarded knowledge as exchange for personal training.

Dom
05-31-2014, 09:13 PM
To be fair, I do think RJ intended this as a mystery... In book 8. Then he solved it in the prologue of book 9 with just one line, so I guess a lot of people never got it.

I do wonder if the Hall ever figured it out, though. Egwene pretty much gave away the Aes Sedai's only advantage over the Wise Ones, however slim it was. She absolutely did the right thing in light of the Last Battle (any number of Rand's schemes requiring moving the Aiel around wouldn't have been as easy to pull off otherwise), but she was distributing the Tower's jealously guarded knowledge as exchange for personal training.

To be fair, the Tower got Traveling only thanks to Egwene, and knowledge to use TAR because the WO were teaching Egwene who taught Elayne-Nynaeve who passed it on somewhat under pressure.

That's nothing compared to Elayne-Nynaeve bargaining all the WT OP knowledge to get the Windfinders to do what they should have done for free, since it was in their interest too to correct the weather. Elayne-Nynaeve grossly misunderstood they were the ones holding something the SF would give a lot to acquire.

fionwe1987
05-31-2014, 11:26 PM
To be fair, the Tower got Traveling only thanks to Egwene, and knowledge to use TAR because the WO were teaching Egwene who taught Elayne-Nynaeve who passed it on somewhat under pressure.
Yes, but I highly doubt the Tower has a "if you invented it, do with it as you want" attitude. And she certainly didn't invent linking, and whatever else she taught the WO.

That's nothing compared to Elayne-Nynaeve bargaining all the WT OP knowledge to get the Windfinders to do what they should have done for free, since it was in their interest too to correct the weather. Elayne-Nynaeve grossly misunderstood they were the ones holding something the SF would give a lot to acquire.
Oh no doubt about that. They let their desperation show.

GonzoTheGreat
06-01-2014, 03:19 AM
Oh no doubt about that. They let their desperation show.
And forgot entirely that their whole purpose in starting this jaunt had been to find something that would tie the AS to Rand.

Dom
06-01-2014, 05:22 PM
Yes, but I highly doubt the Tower has a "if you invented it, do with it as you want" attitude. And she certainly didn't invent linking, and whatever else she taught the WO

Yeah, I just thought the Hall had much bigger fish to fry than wonder who of the sisters under WO "supervision"/serving Rand, Cadsuane and her group or (much less likely for them, they didn't suspect fully their relationship, nor knew that she kept meeting them) Egwene had taught a few things to the W.O., while discovery of the Bargain would have opened a whole other can of worms.

I think RJ's original intent for that was to have Merillile come reveal it to the Rebel Hall after Egwene's capture. Later on, the shock that the Windfinders would, essentially, come to know all the WT knew of the OP, would have served as an extra argument (more an excuse, really) for Egwene to convince the Hall that associating the SF and WO to the WT, and having them agree to take Accepted in training to balance things out was necessary (the WO on the argument that nothing stopped the SF from making another Bargain with them).

That's Jordan, btw. Maybe not all the details or how exactly it came about, but that was his general plan Brandon used for this. Egwene was to have her way for that (an agreement with the WO and the SF), and for her plans for AS retirement into the Kin. And the men wouldn't be any part of it at least for many years. There was no detail, though, just that it had to succeed.

Egwene's alliance against Rand was more clearly divided along gender lines in the notes (a straighter replay of the Fateful Concord, with even Nynaeve, Min, Elayne on Egwene's side, with the same crippling fear that made the Concord refuse to support a strike after it lost the Access Keys - RJ compared that to a deer stopping to move once caught in car lights in the middle of a road), though it's quite possible RJ altered that to something closer to the final divisions in later notes.

Hugh the Hand
06-04-2014, 03:55 PM
That would seem a departure from Min's character development.

Unless her character development was the original departure.

either way the parallel seems like a logical choice, but, Min seems out of character for her to disagree with Rand on such an important thing.

By the way, that would leave only Perrin as support for Rand from his inner circle.

fionwe1987
06-04-2014, 04:08 PM
Yeah, I just thought the Hall had much bigger fish to fry than wonder who of the sisters under WO "supervision"/serving Rand, Cadsuane and her group or (much less likely for them, they didn't suspect fully their relationship, nor knew that she kept meeting them) Egwene had taught a few things to the W.O., while discovery of the Bargain would have opened a whole other can of worms.
I have no doubt the Hall took the WO's abilities as gained from the captive sisters, like Cadsuane and Verin did.
I think RJ's original intent for that was to have Merillile come reveal it to the Rebel Hall after Egwene's capture. Later on, the shock that the Windfinders would, essentially, come to know all the WT knew of the OP, would have served as an extra argument (more an excuse, really) for Egwene to convince the Hall that associating the SF and WO to the WT, and having them agree to take Accepted in training to balance things out was necessary (the WO on the argument that nothing stopped the SF from making another Bargain with them).
I remember thinking the same about Merillile. I thought she'd bring Talaan as a sop to mitigate her disastrous performance with the Sea Folk (though she was no part of it, I doubt the Hall would care), and expose Elayne to the Hall. I was certain Lelaine's comments to Egwene about Elayne's political skills (in CoT) was triggered by a secret meeting with Merillile.

And I agree. Egwene would have used the setback to prod the Hall towards a more binding union with the WO and the WF.

That's Jordan, btw. Maybe not all the details or how exactly it came about, but that was his general plan Brandon used for this. Egwene was to have her way for that (an agreement with the WO and the SF), and for her plans for AS retirement into the Kin. And the men wouldn't be any part of it at least for many years. There was no detail, though, just that it had to succeed.
I wonder if RJ ever played with the thought of the men being part of it too. He certainly left many avenues open, especially with Egwene freeing Logain.

Egwene's alliance against Rand was more clearly divided along gender lines in the notes (a straighter replay of the Fateful Concord, with even Nynaeve, Min, Elayne on Egwene's side, with the same crippling fear that made the Concord refuse to support a strike after it lost the Access Keys - RJ compared that to a deer stopping to move once caught in car lights in the middle of a road), though it's quite possible RJ altered that to something closer to the final divisions in later notes.
This is interesting. The version we got kind of downplayed the fact that the Wise Ones were clearly on Egwene's side, and the Sea Folk were neutral at best, leaving Rand with very little clear female support.

Whoever changed it to its current form, I think it was a disservice to the story. It made Moiraine's role less critical, in a way. Moiraine was the one who, as far back as tGH, made it clear she would let the world burn so long as the Dragon succeeded. It would have been interesting to see a proper male vs. female conflict resolved by the same kind of compromise that was reached. It would have held more thematic depth, I feel (and there were Dreams to support such a case).

fionwe1987
06-04-2014, 04:15 PM
That would seem a departure from Min's character development.
Not necessarily. All we need is a viewing to make her flip.

By the way, that would leave only Perrin as support for Rand from his inner circle.
I'm more interested in how this would have played with respect to Cadsuane. She doesn't seem like the type to think the risk is too great. I wonder what RJ's thoughts were regarding that. As it is, I was surprised Caduane had nothing at all to say to Egwene. Sure, she'd have let Rand try his hand, but she's famous for setting Amyrlins straight if she disagrees with their views. The way the scene was written, she certainly seemed to be on Rand's side. But maybe she was happy to let this play out, and would have taken whatever the outcome was.